Guest guest Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 More information about changes in perception e.g. size in sports: in the book " In the zone " by and Rhea White. Read page 37-48 about the altered perception of size, field and time. Henk Kraaijenhof Amstelveen, Holland >> Hi all, I was asked this question recently: " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres speaks of " seeing " the ball well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt said the (tennis) ball " looked as big as a football " (which I assume meant the international football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm seeing the tennis ball well, it looks twice its normal size. Why? " I understand it is to do with concentration etc, but are there any deeper explanations I could see? Any changes in brain activity, what parts of the brain are highly activated? Any changes in physiological/biochemical state? I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping someone else has already done it Regards, Joe Cole Dunedin, New Zealand<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 > Hi all, > > I was asked this question recently: > > " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres speaks of " seeing " the ball > well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt said the (tennis) ball > " looked as big as a football " (which I assume meant the international > football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm seeing the tennis ball well, > it looks twice its normal size. Why? " > > I understand it is to do with concentration etc, but are there any deeper > explanations I could see? Any changes in brain activity, what parts of the > brain are highly activated? Any changes in physiological/biochemical state? > I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping someone else has already > done it > > Regards, > > Joe Cole > Dunedin, New Zealand Hey Joe, I remember when Pete Rose had his 44 game hitting streak many years ago he said about the same thing... " Right now it looks like the size of a basketball, of course, 2 weeks from now it might look like an aspirin. " Sport psych is not my forte. Perhaps it's related to flow? Anyone else? Bill Hartman Indianapolis, IN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 I think it is just the fact that they have seen so many pitches, so many times that the ball actually slows down for them. I participate in a sport in which we slide at speeds around 80mph and the more you slide, the slower the ride becomes...and the better you are. So, is it repetition or a gift? My 2 cents... Lorenzo Hill San Diego, CA --- " Plisk, " wrote: > That's a great question Joe. > > Years ago when baseball great Rod Carew was batting > close to .400, he was often > asked how he was able to hit so many different > pitches. He stated that he could > identify them by watching the rotation of the laces. > He didn't seem like the kind > of person who was trying to bamboozle anyone - > taking his answer at face value, he > had an ability to see the spin on a projectile > coming toward him at 80-90 mph, with > a reaction time of less than 0.3 second. > > Pete Rose had an even simpler explanation for his > batting prowess: " See the ball. > Hit the ball. " > > The great ones seem to possess some subtle > capabilities that the rest of us mere > mortals weren't so blessed with. Visual-motor > skills may vary between individuals > as much as other abilities. The really interesting > question is whether it's > trainable; and if so, to what extent? > > Plisk > Velocity Sports Performance > Norwalk, CT > > --- J Cole wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I was asked this question recently: > > > > " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres > speaks of " seeing " the ball > > well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt > said the (tennis) ball > > " looked as big as a football " (which I assume > meant the international > > football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm > seeing the tennis ball well, > > it looks twice its normal size. Why? " > > > > I understand it is to do with concentration etc, > but are there any deeper > > explanations I could see? Any changes in brain > activity, what parts of the > > brain are highly activated? Any changes in > physiological/biochemical state? > > I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping > someone else has already > > done it > > > > Regards, > > > > Joe Cole > > Dunedin, New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 I'm not sure you'll get the kind of answers you're looking for by looking up studies and such. This seems like the kind of question that taps into out basic assumptions about what is real and/or true, basically leading to inquiry via philosophical speculation. I have often wondered about this and similar phenomena. It is a common experience among people in highly focussed and exceptionally competent states that aspects of space and time seem distorted. One of the most common, in addition to the ball size issue, is time distortion - often expressed in terms of time seeming to slow down. Is it just that these people have exceptional capabilities, or are they perhaps tapping into something that's just there? I suspect that the only reason these experiences/perceptive states are rare, and considered " distortions " is because few people have the discipline and imagination to access them. [i would speculate that it actually happens to most of us, but only in extreme situations - such as when you fall (and grabbing for something to stop you) or may be involved in a car accident (you hear the screech of brakes and it seems like an eternity until you are hit). - DD] I am forced to wonder whether they are really distortions, or actually real, alternate frames of reference that people are capable of achieving. In terms of time perception, a fly navigates and travels at speeds which seem impossible to us, which we can barely even see. When one has landed, you can almost touch it by moving very slowly. It appears that movement that slow is outside of its time-perceptive capability. Likewise, when you look at time-lapse photography of plants and trees, you can see that they are actually moving quite vigorously, just on a slower time scale. When we look at them in person, they appear stationary. Their movement is too slow for our time-perceptive capability. So, I wonder when someone like Micheal Jordan talks about threading through defenders like they were standing still... Is it just a distortion, or has he somehow found a way to occupy a faster time- scale, at least perceptively? To me, the notion of distortion in terms of time or space seems to import the unwarranted assumption that there is an objective, correct frame of reference, and the 'distorted' frame of reference is somehow incorrect or less real. Given the fact that the people in question are MORE competent and MORE capable than the rest of us, isn't it more likely the opposite? Wilbanks ville, FL > Hi all, > > I was asked this question recently: > > " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres speaks of " seeing " the ball > well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt said the (tennis) ball > " looked as big as a football " (which I assume meant the international > football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm seeing the tennis ball well, > it looks twice its normal size. Why? " > > I understand it is to do with concentration etc, but are there any deeper > explanations I could see? Any changes in brain activity, what parts of the > brain are highly activated? Any changes in physiological/biochemical state? > I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping someone else has already > done it > > Regards, > > Joe Cole > Dunedin, New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Steve, Since you have brought up the very interesting question of whether this type visual-motor skill is trainable, I would be interested to hear your professional opinion. I was recently having this type of discussion with some of my collegues. We were talking about reflex arcs. In particular the M1 reflex arc, and the fact that this reflex arc only reaches the spinal column of the CNS and not the brain. Therefore it cannot be trained. But what could be possibly trained is the reflex latency, or the time delay between stimulus and reaction. Forgive my crude description, but neurophysiology is not my strongest point. How do we explain the performance of a Rod Carew, Pete Rose, Lleyton Hewitt, or countless other professional sports men and women who continue to raise the bar. Is it that they were " blessed " with some inate ability. Are they not mortals like the rest of us. Or is it their superior motor ability. Here's hoping we can get back to discussing some other more interesting topics in the field. Condron NY,NY " Plisk, " wrote: That's a great question Joe. Years ago when baseball great Rod Carew was batting close to .400, he was often asked how he was able to hit so many different pitches. He stated that he could identify them by watching the rotation of the laces. He didn't seem like the kind of person who was trying to bamboozle anyone - taking his answer at face value, he had an ability to see the spin on a projectile coming toward him at 80-90 mph, with a reaction time of less than 0.3 second. Pete Rose had an even simpler explanation for his batting prowess: " See the ball. Hit the ball. " The great ones seem to possess some subtle capabilities that the rest of us mere mortals weren't so blessed with. Visual-motor skills may vary between individuals as much as other abilities. The really interesting question is whether it's trainable; and if so, to what extent? Plisk Velocity Sports Performance Norwalk, CT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2003 Report Share Posted July 14, 2003 I recall a study that made some correlations with motion sickness and the ability to focus on a single fast moving object. My recollection is 20 years old so please bear with me as I attempt to paraphrase my memory of the study -- maybe it can lead you in the right direction of research at least. The jist was that a person with the ability to sharply focus on a fast moving object speeding toward them got motion sickness more easily due to so many objects moving past the field of vision coupled with the stationary view of the cabin space conflicting with the inner ear sense of acceleration. The motion sickness was exacerbated when the subject did not have a predominate view of slow moving objects or a horizon in the forefront of vision to focus on. The inverse was true of the person that could not focus sharply on a fast moving object (the theory being that they are used to this flurry of movement and do not attempt to fixate on the objects). I believe the study groups were tennis players and baseball players. Could this be a link? Are these elite athletes capable of " seeing the ball " prone to motion sickness? Or is the above study (granting my recollection) full of it? BTW: (Focus on a single moving object) + (Juggling) = dropped object Dennis Pasadena CA > Hi all, > > I was asked this question recently: > > " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres speaks of " seeing " the ball > well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt said the (tennis) ball > " looked as big as a football " (which I assume meant the international > football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm seeing the tennis ball well, > it looks twice its normal size. Why? " > > I understand it is to do with concentration etc, but are there any deeper > explanations I could see? Any changes in brain activity, what parts of the > brain are highly activated? Any changes in physiological/biochemical state? > I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping someone else has already > done it > > Regards, > > Joe Cole > Dunedin, New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2003 Report Share Posted July 14, 2003 I recall a study that made some correlations with motion sickness and the ability to focus on a single fast moving object. My recollection is 20 years old so please bear with me as I attempt to paraphrase my memory of the study -- maybe it can lead you in the right direction of research at least. The jist was that a person with the ability to sharply focus on a fast moving object speeding toward them got motion sickness more easily due to so many objects moving past the field of vision coupled with the stationary view of the cabin space conflicting with the inner ear sense of acceleration. The motion sickness was exacerbated when the subject did not have a predominate view of slow moving objects or a horizon in the forefront of vision to focus on. The inverse was true of the person that could not focus sharply on a fast moving object (the theory being that they are used to this flurry of movement and do not attempt to fixate on the objects). I believe the study groups were tennis players and baseball players. Could this be a link? Are these elite athletes capable of " seeing the ball " prone to motion sickness? Or is the above study (granting my recollection) full of it? BTW: (Focus on a single moving object) + (Juggling) = dropped object Dennis Pasadena CA > Hi all, > > I was asked this question recently: > > " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres speaks of " seeing " the ball > well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt said the (tennis) ball > " looked as big as a football " (which I assume meant the international > football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm seeing the tennis ball well, > it looks twice its normal size. Why? " > > I understand it is to do with concentration etc, but are there any deeper > explanations I could see? Any changes in brain activity, what parts of the > brain are highly activated? Any changes in physiological/biochemical state? > I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping someone else has already > done it > > Regards, > > Joe Cole > Dunedin, New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 Hi Joe! I reviewed a book proposal for Human Kinetics a few months ago on Sports vision training by Drs. Jeff Falkel and Tom . It contains all the info you are seeking plus sports specific vision training exercises and should be available from HK in the next few months. Best wishes! Dan Wathen, Youngstown (OH) State University In Supertraining , J Cole <jcole@a...> wrote: > Hi all, > > I was asked this question recently: > > " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres speaks of " seeing " the ball > well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt said the (tennis) ball > " looked as big as a football " (which I assume meant the international > football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm seeing the tennis ball well, > it looks twice its normal size. Why? " > > I understand it is to do with concentration etc, but are there any deeper > explanations I could see? Any changes in brain activity, what parts of the > brain are highly activated? Any changes in physiological/biochemical state? > I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping someone else has already > done it > > Regards, > > Joe Cole > Dunedin, New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 The only thing that can increase that time between the stimulus and the spine back to the response (action) is the rate of tension development in the muscle. The stimulus can only travel at a given rate. This is way training to speed up the rate of tension development is so important in athletes as well as the everyday person. If the stimulus does travel to the brain then we can also help the athlete improve their decision making skills as well to help increase the response time. Hammond NY,NY > That's a great question Joe. > > Years ago when baseball great Rod Carew was batting close to .400, he was often > asked how he was able to hit so many different pitches. He stated that he could > identify them by watching the rotation of the laces. He didn't seem like the kind > of person who was trying to bamboozle anyone - taking his answer at face value, he > had an ability to see the spin on a projectile coming toward him at 80-90 mph, with > a reaction time of less than 0.3 second. > > Pete Rose had an even simpler explanation for his batting prowess: " See the ball. > Hit the ball. " > > The great ones seem to possess some subtle capabilities that the rest of us mere > mortals weren't so blessed with. Visual-motor skills may vary between individuals > as much as other abilities. The really interesting question is whether it's > trainable; and if so, to what extent? > > Plisk > Velocity Sports Performance > Norwalk, CT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Lets also remember that playing Baseball or Tennis is an open skill which has both high demands in spatial and temporal conditions which involves a high amount of prediction. As these athletes continue to play and are put in more situations that they can then recall on later, they increase theie ability to predict. Not to mention that the major league batter has less then 1 second to decide to swing or not, as well as when to start the swing and where to swing. This is why a 30% success rate will land you in the hall of fame. Hammond NY,NY > > Hi all, > > > > I was asked this question recently: > > > > " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres speaks of " seeing " the ball > > well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt said the (tennis) ball > > " looked as big as a football " (which I assume meant the international > > football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm seeing the tennis ball well, > > it looks twice its normal size. Why? " > > > > I understand it is to do with concentration etc, but are there any deeper > > explanations I could see? Any changes in brain activity, what parts of the > > brain are highly activated? Any changes in physiological/biochemical state? > > I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping someone else has already > > done it > > > > Regards, > > > > Joe Cole > > Dunedin, New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Hi Joe, There is already a great book written on the subject of sport vision called, " Visual Perception and Action in Sport " by , s and , 1999, Routledge. This book goes over pretty much everything related to vision and sport. You need a fairly good sport science background though and it is mostly theoretically based but it doesn't take much to figure out some exercises based on the theory. I got it from Amazon.uk (it wasn't in the Amazon.com site). Shaun, Galloway, Budapest, Hungary > > Hi all, > > > > I was asked this question recently: > > > > " Every great athlete in sports based on spheres speaks of " seeing " the ball > > well. After winning the U. S. Open, Lleyton Hewitt said the (tennis) ball > > " looked as big as a football " (which I assume meant the international > > football, that we call a soccer ball). When I'm seeing the tennis ball well, > > it looks twice its normal size. Why? " > > > > I understand it is to do with concentration etc, but are there any deeper > > explanations I could see? Any changes in brain activity, what parts of the > > brain are highly activated? Any changes in physiological/biochemical state? > > I have not reviewed the literature, I was hoping someone else has already > > done it > > > > Regards, > > > > Joe Cole > > Dunedin, New Zealand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 Greetings everyone, Interesting discussion. The experiences of people " seeing the ball " etc are examples of altered states or even deep trance phenomena. Those who are interested in these phenomena could dig into the research done by the late Milton H. kson, MD. He was president of the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis, and also founder and editor of the American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis. Among other things, he did extensive research on the phenomena of time distortion and such altered states of mind/body. His book " Time Distortion in Hypnosis " was first published in 1954, and he continued his research during the 60's and 70's. There are several volumes of collected papers of kson available, edited by Dr Ernest Rossi. When I took training with one of Dr kson's followers, Dr Bandler, we dealt with time distortion and other types of perceptual distortion ( " seeing the ball " , " the ball is bigger " , " the green comes closer " , " the fairway shrinks " etc) and how to elicit and utilize these phenomena in sports and other contexts. For those focusing on the mental side of sports performance, I would clearly recommend taking training with people trained by kson. As far as I can tell, Dr Bandler is the best trainer for these purposes, as he focuses a lot on eliciting and using trance phenomena in various contexts on a very practical level. Dr Gilligan is also reputed to be one of the best. I have not yet had any personal experience of training with him though. All the best Jens Hoffmeyer Stockholm Sweden _____________________________________________________ Gå före i kön och få din sajt värderad på nolltid med Yahoo! Express Se mer på: http://se.docs.yahoo.com/info/express/help/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 & Steve I also believe that this " reaction " can be trained. As you mentioned , it may be trained as a result of increase in ROFD in the muscles. But also these types of activities are very much controlled by feedforward mechanisms which result in some form of learning. The brain makes an " efferent copy " of the plan and stores this. If the end result is wrong then the brain can retrieve this copy and make adjustments to it. This must also hold true for such M1 reflexes like plyometrics. Condron NY,NY hamiam45 wrote: Lets also remember that playing Baseball or Tennis is an open skill which has both high demands in spatial and temporal conditions which involves a high amount of prediction. As these athletes continue to play and are put in more situations that they can then recall on later, they increase theie ability to predict. Not to mention that the major league batter has less then 1 second to decide to swing or not, as well as when to start the swing and where to swing. This is why a 30% success rate will land you in the hall of fame. Hammond NY,NY > I recall a study that made some correlations with motion sickness and > the ability to focus on a single fast moving object. My recollection > is 20 years old so please bear with me as I attempt to paraphrase my > memory of the study -- maybe it can lead you in the right direction > of research at least. > > The jist was that a person with the ability to sharply focus on a > fast moving object speeding toward them got motion sickness more > easily due to so many objects moving past the field of vision coupled > with the stationary view of the cabin space conflicting with the > inner ear sense of acceleration. The motion sickness was exacerbated > when the subject did not have a predominate view of slow moving > objects or a horizon in the forefront of vision to focus on. The > inverse was true of the person that could not focus sharply on a fast > moving object (the theory being that they are used to this flurry of > movement and do not attempt to fixate on the objects). I believe the > study groups were tennis players and baseball players. > > Could this be a link? Are these elite athletes capable of " seeing > the ball " prone to motion sickness? Or is the above study (granting > my recollection) full of it? > > BTW: (Focus on a single moving object) + (Juggling) = dropped > object > > Dennis > Pasadena CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 , I agree about the feedforward mechanisms, which goes along with the idea of prediction. Have I been in this situation before with this pitcher with a 3-2 count? What did he through last time? So the brain prepares the response before the stimulus is provided. But if we are talking about seeing the pitch then the brain still has to process that stimulus to know to activate that plan. If we are talking plyometrics it becomes a little different because it is not dependent on a visual stimulus but a tactile and proprioception stimulus which may only travel to the spine and back. There is no decision to make. If the ground reaction time alows the stiumlus to travel to the brain and a decision can be made then it would be able to train that response time. But when the ground reaction time reaches a speed that does not allow the stimulus to travel to the brain then you will become dependent on the preset plan as well as the ROFD of the muscle. Hammond NY,NY > Lets also remember that playing Baseball or Tennis is an open skill > which has both high demands in spatial and temporal conditions which > involves a high amount of prediction. As these athletes continue to > play and are put in more situations that they can then recall on > later, they increase theie ability to predict. Not to mention that the > major league batter has less then 1 second to decide to swing or not, > as well as when to start the swing and where to swing. This is why a > 30% success rate will land you in the hall of fame. > > Hammond > NY,NY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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