Re: Dance Training Continued

[Guest guest]

The research done by Dahlstrom, M. et al. in 1997 that found a high

proportion of Type I Fibers in the thigh muscle of young dancers was

executed on ballet dancers.

The dance I am targeting my Thesis towards is that of the ballet/modern

genre:

Chatfield and C. Byrnes, prominent writers and researchers in

Dance Science, assert in Science of Dance Training (1988) that dance is

anaerobic. They monitored heart rate responses of intermediate dancers at

the college level in 1984 and then noted the similarity of their results to

studies done previously on professional dancers in 1982 and 1970. “Data on

the HR response to dance class, rehearsal, and performance confirm the

intermittent, burst-like, anaerobic nature of dance training and

performance, suggesting that endurance (aerobic) myocardial adaptations

might not be expected from this form of training” (p. 97-98).

This is why I am confused about young dancers being Type I dominant.

I remember listening to a Poliquin interview where he said that

muscle biopsies of the thigh could be very misleading. His example was of a

muscle biopsy done on a world class cyclist. Depending on what part of the

thigh the biopsy was done on, the fiber ratio changed considerably. One

area showed a high ratio of type II to type I. Another showed the opposite.

And another showed it more 50/50. Could this also be the same for dancers.

Maybe some other members could shed some light on this.

Derick Hada

Kapolei, Hawaii

[Guest guest]

> I am writing a research paper for my Thesis on Strength Training

for

> Dancers. I have just come across a stumbling block. Everything I

> have read up until this point says that dance is primarily

> anaerobic.

What type of dance? I compete in sport aerobics events that take 1min

45sec and this is very aerobic. Put simply one can not sustain a

maximal effort for this duration without oxygen. I would say most

could not go 30 seconds.

> And as a dancer myself, I know this to be true.

What type of dance?

How long?

> Thus,

> considering the principle of training specificity, I am promoting

> the use of strength training.

I find an advantage in the use of weights but then sport aerobics

combines high impact aerobic class style dance with gymnastic elements.

> Now I have just come across some research done by Dahlstrom, M. et

> al. in 1997 that found a high proportion of Type I Fibers in the

> thigh muscle of young dancers.

What type of dancers?

What level of dancer?

How big a group was sampled?

> If dance is primarily anaerobic, then why would these young dancers

> be more inclined towards aerobic, slow-twitch muscle fibers?

Because dance is primarily aerobic!

> Is this because they are " young " so their fiber type is probably

> genetically determined anyways and holds no weight in this stance?

> Or am I totally off-base by promoting anaerobic training for

> dancers???

Possibly. Depends on the type of dance. Ballet requires very

anaerobic efforts while others like low impact aerobics are very

aerobic.

> If someone could help me find a way to work this into my thesis

> without blowing the whole thing, I would be very grateful.

I think all athletes benefit from some form of resistance training.

For some dancers they will need a lot of strength work as parts of

their dance are anaerobic while others will need little. All should

do some simply for injury prevention.

I am keen to know how you classify anaerobic efforts from aerobic.

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

Jerry,

So you think that maybe when a dancer " matures, " they become more

fast-twitch dominant? I wonder if there's any research that shows that this

type of occurrence happens in some athletes? Anyone know?

Thanks,

Kathy McCausey

Costa Mesa, CA

>Kathy McCausey writes:

>

> > Now I have just come across some research done by Dahlstrom, M. et

>al. in 1997 that found a high proportion of Type I Fibers in the

>thigh muscle of young dancers.

>

>If dance is primarily anaerobic, then why would these young dancers

>be more inclined towards aerobic, slow-twitch muscle fibers " ? <

>

>Telle--

>

>Wild speculation suggests that as the dancers " mature " ? the fast twitch are

>selectively, anaerobically recruited?? As in more efficent use of explosive

>recruitment schedules which selects against high slow twitch fatigue

>states??

>

>What about speed skaters? Anyone biopsy those folk?

>

>PB's

>

>Jerry Telle

>Lakewood CO USA

>

>

>

><< I am writing a research paper for my Thesis on Strength Training for

>

>Dancers. I have just come across a stumbling block. Everything I

>

>have read up until this point says that dance is primarily

>

>anaerobic. And as a dancer myself, I know this to be true. Thus,

>

>considering the principle of training specificity, I am promoting

>

>the use of strength training.

>

>

>Now I have just come across some research done by Dahlstrom, M. et

>

>al. in 1997 that found a high proportion of Type I Fibers in the

>

>thigh muscle of young dancers.

>

>

>If dance is primarily anaerobic, then why would these young dancers

>

>be more inclined towards aerobic, slow-twitch muscle fibers?

>

>

>Is this because they are " young " so their fiber type is probably

>

>genetically determined anyways and holds no weight in this stance?

>

>Or am I totally off-base by promoting anaerobic training for

>

>dancers???

>

>

>If someone could help me find a way to work this into my thesis

>

>without blowing the whole thing, I would be very grateful.

>

>

>Thanks,

>

> >>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

> > I am writing a research paper for my Thesis on Strength Training

> for

> > Dancers. I have just come across a stumbling block. Everything

I

> > have read up until this point says that dance is primarily

> > anaerobic.

>

> What type of dance? I compete in sport aerobics events that take

1min

> 45sec and this is very aerobic. Put simply one can not sustain a

> maximal effort for this duration without oxygen. I would say most

> could not go 30 seconds.

>

Pardon me if I come across as ignorant here, but this seems to be the

old confusion about the meaning of aerobic and anaerobic processes

raising its ugly head. What do you mean by " without oxygen " ? Without

breathing? That's never been part of the definition of anaerobic

activity. As Mel pointed out, the myth of sprinters not breathing

during a race is exactly that. With a duration of under two minutes,

that sure sounds like an anaerobic event to me--just as a two minute

round of freestyle wrestling or a three minute boxing round is

anaerobic.

> > If dance is primarily anaerobic, then why would these young

dancers

> > be more inclined towards aerobic, slow-twitch muscle fibers?

>

> Because dance is primarily aerobic!

By what definition? What kind of dance?

I have a feeling that the reason the study found mostly aerobic, slow-

twitch muscle fibers is precisely because the dancers in question

were young. Were you to study elite dancers, you'd probably find

something very different--just like I can excel at pickup games of

American football but would do very badly in the National Football

League.

>

> I am keen to know how you classify anaerobic efforts from aerobic.

>

I'm equally interested in how you classify them, since it doesn't

seem to be by dominant energy system.

McClinch

Arlington, VA

[Guest guest]

Kathy McCausey writes:

<< Jerry,

So you think that maybe when a dancer " matures, " they become more

fast-twitch dominant? I wonder if there's any research that shows that this

type of occurrence happens in some athletes? Anyone know? >>

Kathy,

I posted the " weeded out " response before reading your query!

*Maybe* is the operative word at this point(Or ever)! As of my last perusal

-- research was woefully absent! Get Dan (Wathen) to speculate??

PB's

Jerry Telle

Lakewood CO USA

[Guest guest]

I am responding to both Kathy and Chris...

> Pardon me if I come across as ignorant here, but this seems to be the

> old confusion about the meaning of aerobic and anaerobic processes

> raising its ugly head. What do you mean by " without oxygen " ? Without

> breathing?

Anaerobic is sometimes referred to as an oxygen independant energy

pathway. No it has nothing to do with not breathing.

>That's never been part of the definition of anaerobic

> activity. As Mel pointed out, the myth of sprinters not breathing

> during a race is exactly that. With a duration of under two minutes,

> that sure sounds like an anaerobic event to me--just as a two minute

> round of freestyle wrestling or a three minute boxing round is

> anaerobic.

Sorry if I come across as ignorant but are you saying that a two to

three minute maximal effort has no aerobic energy system contribution?

I always was under the assumption that no effort was purely one or

the other, but the important thing was the contribution from the

different energy systems. Hence in the track cycling 4000m event the

best riders clock up over 40,000km a year to ride a 4 min event.

> > > If dance is primarily anaerobic, then why would these young

> dancers

> > > be more inclined towards aerobic, slow-twitch muscle fibers?

> >

> > Because dance is primarily aerobic!

>

> By what definition? What kind of dance?

By percentage contribution of the energy systems. The evidence

provided so far is based on heart rate data and muscle biopsy. I

would question the usefulness of both when attempting to determine

the energy system contributions.

> I have a feeling that the reason the study found mostly aerobic, slow-

> twitch muscle fibers is precisely because the dancers in question

> were young. Were you to study elite dancers, you'd probably find

> something very different--just like I can excel at pickup games of

> American football but would do very badly in the National Football

> League.

Would this not be more a question of technique than physical ability?

I would be keen to know if any of these young dancers went on to

professional careers. From my experience in gymnastics and sport

aerobics, you can pick the physcial talent at a young age. Especially

in the areas of strength and power. The same with track sprint

cyclists.

If these anaerobic ability is of major importance to a dancer then I

would expect very few of the group studied to make it as a

professional dancer.

> I'm equally interested in how you classify them, since it doesn't

> seem to be by dominant energy system.

I know that many exercise physiologists describe events of this

duration (1-5mins) as a real grey area in terms of measurement and

prescription of training.

Hamish Ferguson

Christchurch, New Zealand

[Guest guest]

> Or maybe the slow twitch dancers are " explosive challenged " and thus selected

> against ( " weeded out " )? " Only the strongest shall survive " Darwin??

>

> Pb's

>

> Jerry Telle

> Lakewood CO USA

Precisely the point I was getting at, Jerry.

McClinch

Arlington, VA

[Guest guest]

> <.McClinch@n...> wrote:

> > Pardon me if I come across as ignorant here, but this seems to be the

> > old confusion about the meaning of aerobic and anaerobic processes

> > raising its ugly head. What do you mean by " without oxygen " ? Without

> > breathing?

>

> Anaerobic is sometimes referred to as an oxygen independant energy

> pathway. No it has nothing to do with not breathing.

>

Fair enough. Just trying to make sure we're working from the same

definition here.

> >That's never been part of the definition of anaerobic

> > activity. As Mel pointed out, the myth of sprinters not breathing

> > during a race is exactly that. With a duration of under two minutes,

> > that sure sounds like an anaerobic event to me--just as a two minute

> > round of freestyle wrestling or a three minute boxing round is

> > anaerobic.

>

> Sorry if I come across as ignorant but are you saying that a two to

> three minute maximal effort has no aerobic energy system contribution?

That it has no aerobic energy system contribution? Of course not.

However, I believe that there will be more contribution from

anaerobic processes (fast and slow glycolysis) than from aerobic

ones. There is, of course, a spectrum, and I'm aware that the

contribution of the aerobic system is significant with a two-to-three

minute maximal effort, but if we're placing simplistic labels on the

activity, I think the simplistic label of " anaerobic " is a slightly

better fit.

> I always was under the assumption that no effort was purely one or

> the other, but the important thing was the contribution from the

> different energy systems. Hence in the track cycling 4000m event the

> best riders clock up over 40,000km a year to ride a 4 min event.

Agreed.

> > I have a feeling that the reason the study found mostly aerobic, slow-

> > twitch muscle fibers is precisely because the dancers in question

> > were young. Were you to study elite dancers, you'd probably find

> > something very different--just like I can excel at pickup games of

> > American football but would do very badly in the National Football

> > League.

>

> Would this not be more a question of technique than physical ability?

Not necessarily. Technique is important, but athletes with excellent

technique, fail to reach the elite rankings within their respective

sports due to physical shortcomings, all of the time. At the highest

levels, your typical athlete will combine technique with physical

gifts. Athletes get weeded out for lack of physical ability just as

they do for lack of technique. In fact, there are athletes who

combine excellent technique with excellent physical gifts, only to

find that their careers stall because their physiques don't look the

part. Doug Flutie comes to mind.

> I would be keen to know if any of these young dancers went on to

> professional careers. From my experience in gymnastics and sport

> aerobics, you can pick the physcial talent at a young age. Especially

> in the areas of strength and power. The same with track sprint

> cyclists.

>

> If these anaerobic ability is of major importance to a dancer then I

> would expect very few of the group studied to make it as a

> professional dancer.

Again, I'm in complete agreement.

> > I'm equally interested in how you classify them, since it doesn't

> > seem to be by dominant energy system.

>

> I know that many exercise physiologists describe events of this

> duration (1-5mins) as a real grey area in terms of measurement and

> prescription of training.

>

Fair enough. I agree that it's a gray area, and my feeling is that it

falls on the opposite side of the line. Sorry about reading your

initial post so simplistically.

McClinch

Arlington, VA