Re: In Defense of Chek and Pulling In the Abs

[Guest guest]

> Mr. Chek has become infamous for becoming the man who wants us to

throw away our lifting belts. . . The concept of drawing in the abs

to support the spine . . . To cut to the chase, Chek's premise did

not hold up (search for Dr. Siff's and Mr. Chek's exchange on this

site-it's worth reading)>

Can anyone tell me the search paramaters to use that will yield this

discussion. I've spent the last 40 minutes or so trying to find it

(or any exchanges between Siff and Chek) without success.

Thank you,

Jae Sabol

Los Angeles, CA

[Guest guest]

The Keyword is: " transversus abdominis " or " TvA " .

Be prepared for hours of reading -- this subject has been cropping up

since the beginning (2000).

Dennis

Pasadena, Ca USA

> > Mr. Chek has become infamous for becoming the man who wants us to

> throw away our lifting belts. . . The concept of drawing in the abs

> to support the spine . . . To cut to the chase, Chek's premise did

> not hold up (search for Dr. Siff's and Mr. Chek's exchange on this

> site-it's worth reading)>

>

> Can anyone tell me the search paramaters to use that will yield

this

> discussion. I've spent the last 40 minutes or so trying to find it

> (or any exchanges between Siff and Chek) without success.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Jae Sabol

> Los Angeles, CA

[Guest guest]

In looking back on this post, I noticed that two potentially distinct

positions are being perhaps unfairly conflated: sucking in the abs

during lifting, and lifting without a belt. While the ab-sucking

position hasn't held up to ST scrutiny, I am under the impression

that avoiding dependence on lifting belts is generally considered a

good training principle in many cases. Whether or not to use the

belt, while maintaining the same 'out-pressing', valsalva-manouver

strategy is basically a separate issue. I tend to think it a bad

idea to use the belt, except in the case of lifting extremely heavy

loads for the sake of lifting extremely heavy loads (i.e.,

competitive powerlifting and possibly weightlifting).

For most, the purpose of training lifts like the squat and deadlift

is to develop strength, mass, balance, common movement patterns,

etc... that can be applied to other activities. Since virtually none

of those activities involve wearing a lifting belt, using it as a

crutch to enable one to lift more during training makes little sense,

and may even be creating a dangerous weakness. Better to force the

body to create the stability necessary to perform the lift on it's

own. This is basically another application of the same principle

which argues against the use of machines which eliminate degrees of

movement freedom and balancing factors by forcing fixed movement

paths.

Since I am not an experienced coach, there may be a broader training

use for doing singles and other circa-maximal lifts in which the

added safety of the belt would outweigh the potential drawbacks of

fostering a dependency on it. Still, I think the belt would only be

justified for very heavy lifts/attempts... any ST thoughts?

Wilbanks

ville, FL

> Mr. Chek has become infamous for becoming the man who wants us to

> throw away our lifting belts. Some people's reaction is such that

> you would think this is Chek's evil plan to destroy the free world.

> The concept of drawing in the abs to support the spine did not begin

> with Chek, although it may end with him. (for more information read

> Chek's " How to be Strong and Beltless " on the testosterone web site)

>

> ph Pilates used this technique way back in the 1920's as the

> cornerstone of his exercise system. Pilates was an early yoga

> devotee and borrowed the " Ab pull in " as well as other yoga techniques

> for his unique exercise form. Yoga, as many know, goes back

> thousands of years. So this is not a revolutionary new idea.

>

> Chek no doubt spent a lot of time working on this concept. The Strong

> and Beltless articles are an impressive 33 pages and filled with

> beautiful graphics, charts and tables. Included is more than 60

> references as Chek tries to prove his point.

>

> Once Chek released this information it became available for public

> scrutiny. To cut to the chase, Chek's premise did not hold up (search

> for Dr. Siff's and Mr. Chek's exchange on this site-it's worth

> reading). Give Chek credit - he got up to the plate and took his

> swings. He may have struck out, but he made an effort. It is far

> easier to sit in the safety of the stands. There is no shame in

> being wrong, only in stubbornly holding on to false beliefs. Who

> knows next time Chek steps up to the plate, he may hit one out?

>

> Does that mean " drawing in the abs " is totally worthless? Many

> Physical Therapists teach this technique for those with low back pain

> caused by a lordotic posture. Pulling the abs in helps one to

> posteriorly rotate the pelvis into a more neutral spine. This

> technique may also help you flatten your back to the floor and avoid

> back pain during the leg lift exercise. It is also helpful for

> sucking in the gut at the beach or getting into tight jeans. Like

> most things in life, pulling in the abs does have some use.

>

> Still I'm glad I didn't throw out my expensive power lifting belt.

> Now I can use it for more than Hans and Franz impressions.

>

> Tom Rankin CSCS

> Whippany NJ

[Guest guest]

We tend to live in a black and white world. Something is either

classied as good or bad, right or wrong. Most things in life are not

that simple. The worth of contracting the Transverse Abdominals

depends on it's application. As mentioned before this not the

technique one would want to use in a maximal squat or deadlift. But

it may be effective for doing leg lifts. People often find it easier

to flatten their back on the floor (posteriorly tilting the pelvis by

drawing in the abs). This makes the exercise safer and protects

against the tendency to anteriorly tilt the pelvis.

Tom Rankin CSCS

Rocklin, CA

> In looking back on this post, I noticed that two potentially distinct

> positions are being perhaps unfairly conflated: sucking in the abs

> during lifting, and lifting without a belt. While the ab-sucking

> position hasn't held up to ST scrutiny, I am under the impression

> that avoiding dependence on lifting belts is generally considered a

> good training principle in many cases. Whether or not to use the

> belt, while maintaining the same 'out-pressing', valsalva-manouver

> strategy is basically a separate issue. I tend to think it a bad

> idea to use the belt, except in the case of lifting extremely heavy

> loads for the sake of lifting extremely heavy loads (i.e.,

> competitive powerlifting and possibly weightlifting).

>

> For most, the purpose of training lifts like the squat and deadlift

> is to develop strength, mass, balance, common movement patterns,

> etc... that can be applied to other activities. Since virtually none

> of those activities involve wearing a lifting belt, using it as a

> crutch to enable one to lift more during training makes little sense,

> and may even be creating a dangerous weakness. Better to force the

> body to create the stability necessary to perform the lift on it's

> own. This is basically another application of the same principle

> which argues against the use of machines which eliminate degrees of

> movement freedom and balancing factors by forcing fixed movement

> paths.

>

> Since I am not an experienced coach, there may be a broader training

> use for doing singles and other circa-maximal lifts in which the

> added safety of the belt would outweigh the potential drawbacks of

> fostering a dependency on it. Still, I think the belt would only be

> justified for very heavy lifts/attempts... any ST thoughts?

>

> Wilbanks

> ville, FL

[Guest guest]

I suggest that everyone who is quick to criticize other peoples work, should

really do a thorough review of the literature and make sure that they are

applying principles in the correct context.

Addicott

Phoenix, AZ

In Defense of Chek and Pulling In the Abs

Tom Rankin wrote:

>As mentioned before this not the

> technique one would want to use in a maximal squat or deadlift. But

> it may be effective for doing leg lifts. People often find it easier

> to flatten their back on the floor (posteriorly tilting the pelvis by

> drawing in the abs). This makes the exercise safer and protects

> against the tendency to anteriorly tilt the pelvis.

Casler writes:

Are you claiming that the TvA posteriorly tilts the pelvis? Or that it

resists anterior tilt?

If so could you explain the biomechanism for such an action.

Thanks,

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA

[Guest guest]

Could you be more specific? Give some details? A vague

criticism/exhortation like this does not spur further discussion, and

just comes off like innuendo.

Wilbanks

ville, FL

>

> >As mentioned before this not the

> > technique one would want to use in a maximal squat or

deadlift. But

> > it may be effective for doing leg lifts. People often find it

easier

> > to flatten their back on the floor (posteriorly tilting the

pelvis by

> > drawing in the abs). This makes the exercise safer and protects

> > against the tendency to anteriorly tilt the pelvis.

>

> Casler writes:

>

> Are you claiming that the TvA posteriorly tilts the pelvis? Or

that it

> resists anterior tilt?

>

> If so could you explain the biomechanism for such an action.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Regards,

>

> Casler

> TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

> Century City, CA

[Guest guest]

> Casler writes:

>

> Are you claiming that the TvA posteriorly tilts the pelvis? Or

that it

> resists anterior tilt?

>

> If so could you explain the biomechanism for such an action.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Regards,

>

> Casler

> TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

> Century City, CA

,

We in the West tends to dissect the body into functioning parts, the

Eastern thinking views the body as a integrated whole. I'm taking

the Eastern route, so I'm not referring to the isolated muscle

actions of the TVA but the role it may play (along with many other

muscles) in a specific movement.

The movement in question is the supine leg lift. Throughout the

years this has been considered a " lower ab " exercise.

Unfortunately, most people focus on the raising and lowering of the

legs instead of using the abs to stabilize the pelvis. This abdominal

test- used by Chek and many others- will help explain how the

TVA may help aid pelvic stabilization.

In a supine position, raise your legs until your lower back flattens

to the floor. Now:

1. Slowly lower your legs until you are no longer able to keep

your back on the floor.

2. Before lowering the legs contract the abs by pulling your

navel toward the spine and then slowly lower your legs while

maintaining lower back contact with the floor.

The vast majority of people will find that they have more control and

are able to lower their legs further by adding the contraction of the

TVA. This helps the body resist the tendency to anterior tilt the

pelvis that is caused by the lowering of the legs. Even though the

TVA has no direct action on the hip joint where the movement is

occurring, it's contraction does help in the stabilizing of the

pelvis, as evidenced by the improved performance of the exercise.

Dr. Shirley Sahrmann uses this method in several of the exercises in

her text, " Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement Impairment

Syndromes " . While this is effective in certain applications, it

would be foolish to think it is the most effective way to stabilize

the spine for every exercise.

Here's something to think about. Why do trigger points refer pain to

unrelated parts of the body? Example, trigger points in the

piriformis cause pain in the lumbar area yet the piriformis is a

muscle that acts on the hip.

Tom Rankin CSCS

Rocklin, CA

[Guest guest]

Addicott wrote:

> I don't know how to make it more clear. Review the literature and make

your own decision. A lot of what Chek references has good application, but

as professionals we should be able to decipher that info and know when and

how to apply different concepts.

Casler writes:

I don't know how to make it more clear either. A great % of this list does

not have access to the literature you list and wouldn't know how assess it

if they did.

If you have specific points to make please make them with at least

semi-detailed explanations, don't just tell people to go and read obscure

and flawed research assumptions.

Chek's terminology and suggestions are flawed in their origin. The

literature you point to has " small " therapeutic applications but in the

field of strength and power it is useless, and more than that, dangerous.

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA

[Guest guest]

Addicott wrote:

> I really do not know how to be more specific. Review Chek's info and

review his references - educate yourself and make your own decisions. I am

defending Chek, his work is not novel by any means, if you review the

literature you will find that this concept is not new and there is much

research on the topic.

Casler writes:

The literature you suggest has significant slant, erroneous assumptions, and

isolative deficiencies. has not corrected any of these problems.

[, could you possibly provide a few simple examples with supporting

data/references to further convince people? - DD]

Regards,

Casler

TRI-VECTOR 3-D Force Systems

Century City, CA

[Guest guest]

> Casler writes:

>

> Since Melsters not around looks like I get to play the role sometimes and

> the above seems like a bunch of jabberwocky.

,

Anything with Robin in it can't be that bad (jabberwocky).

Let's go another round and see if we can get on the same page or at

least speak the same language.

> While I don't question that using the abs to stabilize the torso allows one

> to perform the exercise. Your instructions in no way demonstrate anything

> about the TvA except that it may be called upon " in concert " with the other

> torso muscles to provide stabilization.

>

> Your statement that " The vast majority of people will find that they have

> more control and are able to lower their legs further by adding the

> contraction of the TVA. " has no basis of fact since the average person

> cannot isolate or willfully activate the TvA without activating the

> abdominal muscles.

Did it occur to you that pulling in the navel towards the spine may

be a technique used to teach the average person how to contact the

abdominals? I said nothing about isolating the TVA. Why would I

want to do that, these muscles are meant to work together.

> In essence, what is happening here is that when the psoas tensions it

> stresses the lumbar spine by pulling it into extension.

>

> Activating the abdominal muscles oppose this extension force with a flexion

> force.

>

> The TvA while likely activated is not really a key player and this

> incredible fascination is not warranted.

It may not be a key player, but it's a player. If someone may use

this techqnue to learn how to activiate the other abdominal muscles

on certin exercises (usually in the supine position), it does become

more important.

> Tom Rankin wrote:

>

> > Dr. Shirley Sahrmann uses this method in several of the exercises in

> > her text, " Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement Impairment

> > Syndromes " . While this is effective in certain applications, it

> > would be foolish to think it is the most effective way to stabilize

> > the spine for every exercise.

>

> Casler writes:

>

> Sorry I am not familiar with Dr Shirley's work, but if this is the way she

> explains it she is slightly off the mark.

These are my explanations, not those of Dr. Shirley Sahrmann. Her

explainations are in her PT text, Diagnosis and Treatment of Movement

Impairment Syndromes. Sahramann is a Professor of Physical Therapy,

Cell Biology and Physiology, Neurology and is the Director of

Movement Science of the School of Medicine at Washington University.

So she has more than a Chek correspondence course or weekend Pilates

certification. No offense, but she probably has done more research

and experience in rehabilitation than you and Mel combined.

> Tom Rankin wrote:

>

> > Here's something to think about. Why do trigger points refer pain to

> > unrelated parts of the body? Example, trigger points in the

> > piriformis cause pain in the lumbar area yet the piriformis is a

> > muscle that acts on the hip.

>

> Casler writes:

>

> What???? Does this have a relevance or is it more " Eastern Thinking " .

You think of the body as a series of parts- again you wrote of

isolating the TVA. You're missing the big picture, the body is a

unified whole. Western medicine treats parts of the body, Chinese

medicine treat the whole body- that's the Eastern/Western thing.

The trigger point question relates to the wholeness of the body.

Everything works together and man has not figured it all out yet.

The bottom line is this, Sahrmann and the many PT who use her methods

have treated thousands upon thousands with back pain with a great

degree of success. It may be flawed by your thinking, but it works.

As Bill Cosby once said, " The proof is in the pudding " .

Enjoy your holiday,

Tom Rankin CSCS

Rocklin, CA

[Guest guest]

It was not my intention to start another Chek War. Although it has

been fun. If you want to hear from and Mel on this subject, the

massage # is 9976 and the subject, Abdominal Conditioning: Chek and

Siff. It's 12 pages of interesting reading. I had Mel as the clear

winner.

Anyways, as the Chek conflict turned to war, most people are missing

my orginal point. Which is that pulling in the abs is not totally

useless. Sahrmann does use this technique to teach patients how to

contract their abs for a few of her exercises. And no, it does not

always happen with normal movement. Otherwise, her methods would not

have helped so many people.

Abstract intellectual discussions are nice. But results are nicer.

Sahrmann is a well known expert in rehabilation and has been very

successful. I think it foolish to discount her methods until you

read her text. Don't go by my posts, read her work, apply it to real

life and make up your own mind.

Chek and the Pilates people were wrong to think pulling in the abs is

the best way to stabilize the pelvis in all situations. It's just as

wrong to conclude it has no practical use.

Tom Rankin CSCS

Rocklin, CA