Guest guest Posted April 29, 2003 Report Share Posted April 29, 2003 > , I agree to a point. The athletes stance may start out shoulder > width, but never remains there or finishes there. The stance is ever > changing, and simple variation in squating stances and different squat > movements should address this, no? Just my opinion. > > Doug Fairbanks > ton, SC Could the MCL tear be related to the stance width used in performing their actual sport? In alpine skiing, for example, stance widths are becoming wider, but too wide has caused some incidence of injury. Mercer Brookline Ma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 Obviously, you can create a situation that is " too " narrow and " too " wide. However, I disagree with Mr. Hedrick in that, feet-shoulder-width apart is a basic athletic position. I find very few times where my athletes are standing shoulder-width-apart. By widening the stance and externally rotating, you provide more focus on the VMO and control femoral rotation. I have used this method of squats for years in training and in rehabilitation, and have found this technique to be very successful. Are you sure they're hurting the MCL? Perhaps they are stressing the medial retinaculum? When a person squats too far, a valgus force can be easily applied to the medial knee stressing the medial structures, and in time, cause knee pain. In all likelihood, this is due to joint ROM constraints (flexibility) of the gluteals and triceps surae. I've seen many of my athletes come into college with poor squat mechanics and have associated knee pain, but relieved once proper mechanics and flexibility have been restored. Mike Hadden MS ATC/L CSCS STS Program Director of Athletic Training & Exercise Science Simpson College Indianola, IA 50125 >: > >I am not sure about the correlation between stance width and MCL problems. >However, I do know that you get stronger in the positions you train in. Why >train with such a wide stance when a basic athletic position is feet >shoulder width apart or slightly wider? I don't want my athletes to get >stronger in a position they are not going to compete in, that is of little >value. > >Thanks, > > Hedrick >U.S. Air Force Academy CO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2003 Report Share Posted April 30, 2003 As a former trainer, I've always read and studied that when you squat, your feet should be no wider than your shoulders are. I'm not sure why you would go super wide, unless you had a specific training regimen for a sport. But with squatting, usually the weight is very heavy, so the wider your stance, the more stress is put on your joints. I do think that's a factor in the injuries you note. This is really unnecessary and I don't know of anyone who currently does it. Thanks, Josh Columbia, South Carolina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Feet straight ahead, about 18 " apart from the inside the heels, with no rotation is ideal for developing strength and power. External rotation is needed by some individuals due to their lack of instruction, muscle and joint ROM, strength, neuromuscular coordination, and training age. I disagree with the statement that you can squat too deep. I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. I agree with on the lever arm change and the ability to lift a weight, however this provides false information how strong an individual is... I agree with about the width and its appropriateness. I have not done this ,YET, but I want to put a 6 X 6 wood piece inside each side of the squat rack to decrease the allowable stance width inside the rack....just a thought I would file external rotation and a wide stance as methods of imperfect training... Dennis Kline MS CSCS Manager Strength Center/Ass't Track Coach 158 Hall 1725 State St La Crosse WI 54601 Phone (608)785-6533 Fax (608)785-6537 email kline.denn@... Visit our web page www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 What is your definition of squatting " TOO FAR " ? Olympic style lifters like MEL went to the floor, and from his height that was quite the drop - yet apparently not squatting TOO FAR for him? Competing PL in the IPF are asked to go around 2-3 " below parallel using even heavier weights - where then is " too far " ? As for the stance position - for the PL, the usual STARTING point is at shoulder width apart - and most get WIDER than this. Westside is the extreme with a near 1/2 split coupled with straight ahead foot positioning. Lately I've started thinking of westside as a sort of 'sumo' squat style - vs a more 'conventional' and tighter stance. I did athletic style, aka the " narrow " stance of inside shoulder width before I became a PL - and my knees CONSTANTLY bothered me, I went to parallel BUT SUFFERED. The PL tendency of shoulder width OR WIDER is a far kinder thing to THIS lifter...and it's where I start potential PL'ers. With the exception of the injury I now work through, from a LEG PRESS.... I have been far better in the knees as PL and handling FAR more weight than in the more " acceptable " inside the shoulder width squat stance. I do use an approximate 45 degree outward rotation AND the slight heel on my SAFE squat shoes too. I do NOT have rotator problems, nor have I EVER had them, using this stance. I do NOT EVERT my feet either, the shoes are solid and do NOT allow the foot to move in OR out. Good form is an individual thing, and the lifter should be encouraged to FIND THE FORM that BEST FITS THEM, not any preconceived NOTIONS of the instructor. Were a lifter to decide to go close stance, I would accept that, as long as they hit their depth and did not suffer from this tendency! I think a good reference on the Squat as a whole is the recent article on the topic in Pure Power magazine. Dan Wagman's mag did a great job in going over many of the variations and tricks to developing a good squat. Warmest Regards, The Phantom aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter Denver, Colorado, USA. p.s. I think Mr Driscoll is doing a good job in moderating AND I remember Mel being less flamboyant at the start of this list, people! Mr Driscoll has big shoes to fill and the first part of moderation is, as he has done so far, to prevent open and personal warfare, yet permit good discussion! So I vote for him to hang in there. LS. It was written: > Obviously, you can create a situation that is " too " narrow and " too " wide. > However, I disagree with Mr. Hedrick in that, feet-shoulder-width apart is > a basic athletic position. I find very few times where my athletes are > standing shoulder-width-apart. > > > Are you sure they're hurting the MCL? Perhaps they are stressing the medial > retinaculum? When a person squats too far, a valgus force can be easily > applied to the medial knee stressing the medial structures, and in time, cause knee pain. In all likelihood, this is due to joint ROM constraints (flexibility) of the gluteals and triceps surae. > > I've seen many of my athletes come into college with poor squat mechanics > and have associated knee pain, but relieved once proper mechanics and > flexibility have been restored. > > Mike Hadden MS ATC/L CSCS STS > Program Director of Athletic Training & Exercise Science > Simpson College > Indianola, IA 50125 > > >: > > > >I am not sure about the correlation between stance width and MCL problems. > >However, I do know that you get stronger in the positions you train in. Why > >train with such a wide stance when a basic athletic position is feet > >shoulder width apart or slightly wider? I don't want my athletes to get > >stronger in a position they are not going to compete in, that is of little > >value. > > > >Thanks, > > > > Hedrick > >U.S. Air Force Academy CO > > > > Modify or cancel your subscription here: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you > wish them to be published! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 " I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. " - Correct. Wide squats and VMO activity: 1. , R., C. , and E. Carmeli. EMG analysis of the vastus medialis/vastus lateralis muscles utilizing the unloaded narrow- and wide-stance squats. Journal of Sport Rehabilitation. 7:236-247, 1998. Abstract The purpose of this study was to see if vastus medialis oblique/vastus lateralis (VMO:VL) ratios could be increased by widening the squat stance and if the VMO activity increases with deeper ranges of knee flexion. Fifteen healthy subjects performed unloaded narrow and wide stance squats through three ranges of knee flexion: 30 degrees, 60 degrees, and 90 degrees. The two squat stances were compared using a 2 by 3 ANOVA to see if the wide-stance squat had any significant difference in EMG activity for VMO:VL ratios compared to the narrow-stance squat. The difference in EMG activity of the VMO between the various angles for both squat stances was also compared. The ANOVA revealed no significant differences between the squat stances for VMO:VL ratios but did show the VMO:VL ratios to be significantly higher with increasing knee flexion angles. These findings suggest that the VMO is active throughout the 90 degrees range and that increasing knee flexion angles can elicit greater activity of the VMO relative to the VL. Can anyone else contribute research to support/refute this argument? Jay Wellington, New Zealand RE: Knee problems > Feet straight ahead, about 18 " apart from the inside the heels, with no > rotation is ideal for developing strength and power. External rotation > is needed by some individuals due to their lack of instruction, muscle > and joint ROM, strength, neuromuscular coordination, and training age. > I disagree with the statement that you can squat too deep. > I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. > I agree with on the lever arm change and the ability to lift a > weight, however this provides false information how strong an individual > is... > I agree with about the width and its appropriateness. > > I have not done this ,YET, but I want to put a 6 X 6 wood piece inside > each side of the squat rack to decrease the allowable stance width > inside the rack....just a thought > > I would file external rotation and a wide stance as methods of imperfect > training... > > Dennis Kline MS CSCS > Manager Strength Center/Ass't Track Coach > 158 Hall > 1725 State St > La Crosse WI 54601 > Phone (608)785-6533 > Fax (608)785-6537 > email kline.denn@... > Visit our web page www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter > > > > > > Modify or cancel your subscription here: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you > wish them to be published! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2003 Report Share Posted May 3, 2003 Josh- If that's the case, why then do Powerlifters have a very low incidence of injury in the joints? Mel has made this point over and over again - OL, PL, the people squatting deep and heavy - whether they are in the narrower OL stance or the wider PL one - tend to go unscathed for the most part. It's a gym squatter without the expertise of these two groups who is at far more risk - and likely squatting both far shallower and less weight! Mr Driscoll - can you pull up one of Mel's previous commentaries on this? it's in the archives, it might prove helpful to the discussion - Thank you! [i'll endeavour to do this in the coming days - DD] The Phantom aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter Denver, Colorado, USA Re: Knee problems > > > As a former trainer, I've always read and studied that when you > squat, your feet should be no wider than your shoulders are. I'm not > sure why you would go super wide, unless you had a specific training > regimen for a sport. > > But with squatting, usually the weight is very heavy, so the wider > your stance, the more stress is put on your joints. I do think that's > a factor in the injuries you note. This is really unnecessary and I > don't know of anyone who currently does it. > > Thanks, > > Josh > Columbia, South Carolina > > > > > Modify or cancel your subscription here: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you > wish them to be published! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Where do your feet point when you run? Dennis Kline MS CSCS Manager Strength Center/Ass't Track Coach 158 Hall 1725 State St La Crosse WI 54601 Phone (608)785-6533 Fax (608)785-6537 email kline.denn@... Visit our web page www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter SV: Knee problems Why do you feel that feet straight ahead is ideal? Jan Baggerud Larsen Oslo, Norway -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Kline Dennis E Sendt: 2. mai 2003 14:34 Til: Supertraining Emne: RE: Knee problems Feet straight ahead, about 18 " apart from the inside the heels, with no rotation is ideal for developing strength and power. External rotation is needed by some individuals due to their lack of instruction, muscle and joint ROM, strength, neuromuscular coordination, and training age. I disagree with the statement that you can squat too deep. I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. I agree with on the lever arm change and the ability to lift a weight, however this provides false information how strong an individual is... I agree with about the width and its appropriateness. I have not done this ,YET, but I want to put a 6 X 6 wood piece inside each side of the squat rack to decrease the allowable stance width inside the rack....just a thought I would file external rotation and a wide stance as methods of imperfect training... Dennis Kline MS CSCS Manager Strength Center/Ass't Track Coach 158 Hall 1725 State St La Crosse WI 54601 Phone (608)785-6533 Fax (608)785-6537 email kline.denn@... Visit our web page www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Hi Jay! Papers by Escamalla in the late '90's in MSSE and McLaughlin in the late 70's - early '80's in Research Quarterly would support the paper. Dan Wathen, Youngstown (OH) State University In Supertraining , " Jay " <jay_morgan@s...> wrote: > " I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. " - > Correct. > > Wide squats and VMO activity: > > 1. , R., C. , and E. Carmeli. EMG analysis of the > vastus medialis/vastus lateralis muscles utilizing the unloaded narrow- and > wide-stance squats. Journal of Sport Rehabilitation. 7:236-247, 1998. > > Abstract > The purpose of this study was to see if vastus medialis oblique/vastus lateralis (VMO:VL) ratios could be increased by widening the squat stance and if the VMO activity increases with deeper ranges of knee flexion. Fifteen healthy subjects performed unloaded narrow and wide stance squats through three ranges of knee flexion: 30 degrees, 60 degrees, and 90 degrees. The two squat stances were compared using a 2 by 3 ANOVA to see if the wide-stance squat had any significant difference in EMG activity for VMO:VL ratios compared to the narrow-stance squat. The difference in EMG activity of the VMO between the various angles for both squat stances was also compared. The ANOVA revealed no significant differences between the squat stances for VMO:VL ratios but did show the VMO:VL ratios to be significantly higher with increasing knee flexion angles. These findings suggest that the VMO is active throughout the 90 degrees range and that increasing knee flexion angles can elicit greater activity of the VMO relative to the VL. > > Can anyone else contribute research to support/refute this argument? > > Jay > Wellington, New Zealand > > RE: Knee problems > > > > Feet straight ahead, about 18 " apart from the inside the heels, with no > > rotation is ideal for developing strength and power. External rotation > > is needed by some individuals due to their lack of instruction, muscle > > and joint ROM, strength, neuromuscular coordination, and training age. > > I disagree with the statement that you can squat too deep. > > I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. > > I agree with on the lever arm change and the ability to lift a > > weight, however this provides false information how strong an individual > > is... > > I agree with about the width and its appropriateness. > > > > I have not done this ,YET, but I want to put a 6 X 6 wood piece inside > > each side of the squat rack to decrease the allowable stance width > > inside the rack....just a thought > > > > I would file external rotation and a wide stance as methods of imperfect > > training... > > > > Dennis Kline MS CSCS > > Manager Strength Center/Ass't Track Coach > > 158 Hall > > 1725 State St > > La Crosse WI 54601 > > Phone (608)785-6533 > > Fax (608)785-6537 > > email kline.denn@u... > > Visit our web page www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter > > > > > > > > > > > > Modify or cancel your subscription here: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > > Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if > you > > wish them to be published! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 Hi Jay! Papers by Escamalla in the late '90's in MSSE and McLaughlin in the late 70's - early '80's in Research Quarterly would support the paper. Dan Wathen, Youngstown (OH) State University In Supertraining , " Jay " <jay_morgan@s...> wrote: > " I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. " - > Correct. > > Wide squats and VMO activity: > > 1. , R., C. , and E. Carmeli. EMG analysis of the > vastus medialis/vastus lateralis muscles utilizing the unloaded narrow- and > wide-stance squats. Journal of Sport Rehabilitation. 7:236-247, 1998. > > Abstract > The purpose of this study was to see if vastus medialis oblique/vastus lateralis (VMO:VL) ratios could be increased by widening the squat stance and if the VMO activity increases with deeper ranges of knee flexion. Fifteen healthy subjects performed unloaded narrow and wide stance squats through three ranges of knee flexion: 30 degrees, 60 degrees, and 90 degrees. The two squat stances were compared using a 2 by 3 ANOVA to see if the wide-stance squat had any significant difference in EMG activity for VMO:VL ratios compared to the narrow-stance squat. The difference in EMG activity of the VMO between the various angles for both squat stances was also compared. The ANOVA revealed no significant differences between the squat stances for VMO:VL ratios but did show the VMO:VL ratios to be significantly higher with increasing knee flexion angles. These findings suggest that the VMO is active throughout the 90 degrees range and that increasing knee flexion angles can elicit greater activity of the VMO relative to the VL. > > Can anyone else contribute research to support/refute this argument? > > Jay > Wellington, New Zealand > > RE: Knee problems > > > > Feet straight ahead, about 18 " apart from the inside the heels, with no > > rotation is ideal for developing strength and power. External rotation > > is needed by some individuals due to their lack of instruction, muscle > > and joint ROM, strength, neuromuscular coordination, and training age. > > I disagree with the statement that you can squat too deep. > > I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. > > I agree with on the lever arm change and the ability to lift a > > weight, however this provides false information how strong an individual > > is... > > I agree with about the width and its appropriateness. > > > > I have not done this ,YET, but I want to put a 6 X 6 wood piece inside > > each side of the squat rack to decrease the allowable stance width > > inside the rack....just a thought > > > > I would file external rotation and a wide stance as methods of imperfect > > training... > > > > Dennis Kline MS CSCS > > Manager Strength Center/Ass't Track Coach > > 158 Hall > > 1725 State St > > La Crosse WI 54601 > > Phone (608)785-6533 > > Fax (608)785-6537 > > email kline.denn@u... > > Visit our web page www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter > > > > > > > > > > > > Modify or cancel your subscription here: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > > Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if > you > > wish them to be published! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 This article on foot placement during the deadlift may offer a few answers. Finding that the VMO was recruited more during a sumo deadlift. An electromyographic analysis of sumo and conventional style deadlifts RAFAEL F. ESCAMILLA; ANTHONY C. FRANCISCO; ANDREW V. KAYES; KEVIN P. SPEER; CLAUDE T. MOORMAN, III W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory, Division of Orthopaedic Surgery, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC MEDICINE & SCIENCE IN SPORTS & EXERCISE 2002;34:682-688 ABSTRACT Purpose: Strength athletes often employ the deadlift in their training or rehabilitation regimens. The purpose of this study was to compare muscle activity between sumo and conventional style deadlifts, and between belt and no-belt conditions. Methods: Six cameras collected 60-Hz video data and 960-Hz electromyographic data from 13 collegiate football players who performed sumo and conventional deadlifts with and without a lifting belt, employing a 12-RM intensity. Variables measured were knee angles and EMG measurements from 16 muscles. Muscle activity were averaged and compared within three 30° knee angle intervals from 90 to 0° during the ascent, and three 30° knee angle intervals from 0 to 90° during the descent. Results: Overall EMG activity from the vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, and tibialis anterior were significantly greater in the sumo deadlift, whereas overall EMG activity from the medial gastrocnemius was significantly greater in the conventional deadlift. Compared with the no-belt condition, the belt condition produced significantly greater rectus abdominis activity and significantly less external oblique activity. For most muscles, EMG activity was significantly greater in the knee extending intervals compared with the corresponding knee flexing intervals. Quadriceps, tibialis anterior, hip adductor, gluteus maximus, L3 and T12 paraspinal, and middle trapezius activity were significantly greater in higher knee flexion intervals compared with lower knee flexion intervals, whereas hamstrings, gastrocnemius, and upper trapezius activity were greater in lower knee flexion intervals compared with higher knee flexion intervals. Conclusions: Athletes may choose to employ either the sumo or conventional deadlift style, depending on which muscles are considered most important according to their training protocols. Moderate to high co-contractions from the quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius imply that the deadlift may be an effective closed kinetic chain exercise for strength athletes to employ during knee rehabilitation. -------------------------------------------------------------- The authors found that the sumo deadlift was more effective than the conventional deadlift in recruiting the vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, and tibialis anterior. Smyth Belfast, Northern Ireland > " I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. " - > Correct. > > Wide squats and VMO activity: > > 1. , R., C. , and E. Carmeli. EMG analysis of the > vastus medialis/vastus lateralis muscles utilizing the unloaded narrow- and > wide-stance squats. Journal of Sport Rehabilitation. 7:236-247, 1998. > > Abstract > The purpose of this study was to see if vastus medialis oblique/vastus lateralis (VMO:VL) ratios could be increased by widening the squat stance and if the VMO activity increases with deeper ranges of knee flexion. Fifteen healthy subjects performed unloaded narrow and wide stance squats through three ranges of knee flexion: 30 degrees, 60 degrees, and 90 degrees. The two squat stances were compared using a 2 by 3 ANOVA to see if the wide-stance squat had any significant difference in EMG activity for VMO:VL ratios compared to the narrow-stance squat. The difference in EMG activity of the VMO between the various angles for both squat stances was also compared. The ANOVA revealed no significant differences between the squat stances for VMO:VL ratios but did show the VMO:VL ratios to be significantly higher with increasing knee flexion angles. These findings suggest that the VMO is active throughout the 90 degrees range and that increasing knee flexion angles can elicit greater activity of the VMO relative to the VL. > > Can anyone else contribute research to support/refute this argument? > > Jay > Wellington, New Zealand > > RE: Knee problems > > > > Feet straight ahead, about 18 " apart from the inside the heels, with no > > rotation is ideal for developing strength and power. External rotation > > is needed by some individuals due to their lack of instruction, muscle > > and joint ROM, strength, neuromuscular coordination, and training age. > > I disagree with the statement that you can squat too deep. > > I disagree with the statement that wide squat will focus on the VMO. > > I agree with on the lever arm change and the ability to lift a > > weight, however this provides false information how strong an individual > > is... > > I agree with about the width and its appropriateness. > > > > I have not done this ,YET, but I want to put a 6 X 6 wood piece inside > > each side of the squat rack to decrease the allowable stance width > > inside the rack....just a thought > > > > I would file external rotation and a wide stance as methods of imperfect > > training... > > > > Dennis Kline MS CSCS > > Manager Strength Center/Ass't Track Coach > > 158 Hall > > 1725 State St > > La Crosse WI 54601 > > Phone (608)785-6533 > > Fax (608)785-6537 > > email kline.denn@u... > > Visit our web page www.uwlax.edu/strengthcenter > > > > > > > > > > > > Modify or cancel your subscription here: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups > > > > Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if > you > > wish them to be published! > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2003 Report Share Posted May 8, 2003 I agree with Mel on squats and the lack of knee problems. However I am suspicious of wide PL type squats and long term 'hip' joint health. I know a few of the older PL'ers and a number of them have went through the hip replacement surgery. This is of course also true of other type athletes but if we are just talking lifters and squatting I would have to say I have some concerns about long term wide squats. I think the OL squats are OK though. Dennis Nixon Dallas, TX Re: Re: Knee problems Josh- If that's the case, why then do Powerlifters have a very low incidence of injury in the joints? Mel has made this point over and over again - OL, PL, the people squatting deep and heavy - whether they are in the narrower OL stance or the wider PL one - tend to go unscathed for the most part. It's a gym squatter without the expertise of these two groups who is at far more risk - and likely squatting both far shallower and less weight! Mr Driscoll - can you pull up one of Mel's previous commentaries on this? it's in the archives, it might prove helpful to the discussion - Thank you! [i'll endeavour to do this in the coming days - DD] The Phantom aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter Denver, Colorado, USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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