Re: Speech Threapy- very long

[Guest guest]

When my son was 3 or so I found that getting down on his level and playing with things he really liked for example letters of the alphabet made out of foam, got his attention and held it. I would pretend the letters were dolls or stick figures and I had this whole dialogue going on. Out of the corner of my eye I would catch him looking at my eyes and mouth and he was really engrossed and engaged. After awhile he initiated the same kind of play and pretend chatter. Later I found out about Floortime and it all made sense to me. There are speech pathologists who are trained in DIR/Floortime and I think that approach works well with younger kids as well as with other ages. I think it's fundamental for someone to learn and know how to play in order for them to want to communicate. Here's a little more information on Floortime, warning the article is long.

Floortime is a form of therapeutic play, developed over the past 30-odd years by Dr. Stanley Greenspan. It has been researched to some degree, and seems to be effective for many children with autism. To begin Floortime, all you really need is a book - Engaging Autism - a kitchen timer, a few old toys, and a whole lot of creative energy. If you want to spend a great deal more money, you can attend conferences, buy videos, and even hire a consultant - but none of that is really necessary. By Jo Rudy

What Is The Floortime Treatment for Autism?

The following is drawn from the transcript of a web radio program presented through the www.floortime.org website. The original show aired in spring, 2006. Thanks to Dr. Greenspan for answering my questions about Floortime and the DIR (Developmental, Individual-Difference, Relationship-Based)therapeutic method.

Question from autism.about.com:

What makes the kind of play that you do with your child when you are doing Floortime play different from typical play with a child that a parent would ordinarily do?

Answer from Dr. Stanley Greenspan:

Dr. Greenspan: The question is, “What makes Floortime play different from typical play?†What makes it different is that the parent is working and the child is having fun. Over time, the parent or the therapist will have fun too, but you are challenging the child to do really six things at once, so the highest level the child can, he or she may not be capable of all six initially, but eventually we want to get them there.

You are challenging the child by following their interest and their lead, so it’s like play, if they are interested in dollies or if they are interested in a truck, or if they are interested in aimlessly wandering around the room, you are taking the lead from them, and then you are using their interest to get their focus and attention, to get them engaged, and to get two-way communication going – opening and closing circles of back-and-forth interaction where they are taking initiative. You are trying to get as many of these in a row as possible. Then you are trying to also engage the child in what we call shared social problem solving, where the child is taking you to the door, showing you where the toy is, taking you to the refrigerator, etc. Then you are trying to help the child, if they can, speak, use ideas, and tell you what they want, what they want to do, or speak for the dolly and you speak for the other dolly. Then you are trying to help the child connect ideas together, like your dolly might say, “Gee, why should we build a house?†or “Why should we feed the baby?†and hopefully you will get an answer, if your child is at that level.

Now not all children will be at all the levels. While you are doing this, you are also profiling and tuning in to your child’s nervous system. Some children are over reactive to touch and sound so your voice is extra soothing. Some children are under reactive and need extra energy in your voice to get their attention, so you energize up. For the child who is aimlessly avoiding and walks away from you every time you come near them, you are getting “playfully obstructive†– you may get in front of them and play a cat-and-mouse game so they have to scoot around you, or build a little fence around them with your hands and then they have to duck under the fence or say “open†to get away from the fence.

So basically, Floortime is a special kind of play where you are harnessing all these abilities of the child by tailoring your relationship to the child’s nervous system, and having fun because you are following the child’s leads and interests. Then when the child looks at you or giggles or talks to you, it’s meaningful. It’s not contrived, it’s not forced, and it’s not a rote skill. That’s what makes Floortime special. That’s why we call the model the “DIR Model†– because the “D†part means we focus in on whether the child needs more work on engagement or two-way communication, the “I†is focusing in on their individual ways of their biologically based ways of dealing with sensations like being over or under reactive, and the “R†is learning relationships that are tailored to their nervous system, and meet them where they are at their developmental level. So that’s what makes it a special kind of play.

CReeceNew MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News more. Try it out!

[Guest guest]

This goes to show how different Autism is for each child. My child could

care less what we did at that age he was not the least bit interested in

anyone playing and would completely ignore my attempts to even get close

to him. Actually he was very defensive and would push me away. Follow my

lead? He'd lead me out the door to leave him alone! Funny how different

we can be.

Trina

kgreeceman@... wrote:

>

> When my son was 3 or so I found that getting down on his level and

> playing with things he really liked for example letters of the

> alphabet made out of foam, got his attention and held it. I would

> pretend the letters were dolls or stick figures and I had this whole

> dialogue going on. Out of the corner of my eye I would catch him

> looking at my eyes and mouth and he was really engrossed and engaged.

> After awhile he initiated the same kind of play and pretend chatter.

> Later I found out about Floortime and it all made sense to me. There

> are speech pathologists who are trained in DIR/Floortime and I think

> that approach works well with younger kids as well as with other ages.

> I think it's fundamental for someone to learn and know how to play in

> order for them to want to communicate. Here's a little more

> information on Floortime, warning the article is long.

>

>

>

> Floortime is a form of therapeutic play, developed over the past

> 30-odd years by Dr. Stanley Greenspan. It has been researched to some

> degree, and seems to be effective for many children with autism. To

> begin Floortime, all you really need is a book - Engaging Autism - a

> kitchen timer, a few old toys, and a whole lot of creative energy. If

> you want to spend a great deal more money, you can attend conferences,

> buy videos, and even hire a consultant - but none of that is really

> necessary. By * Jo Rudy*

>

> *What Is The Floortime Treatment for Autism?*

>

> /The following is drawn from the transcript of a web radio program

> presented through the www.floortime.org website. The original show

> aired in spring, 2006. Thanks to Dr. Greenspan for answering my

> questions about Floortime and the DIR (Developmental,

> Individual-Difference, Relationship-Based)therapeutic method./

>

> *Question from autism.about.com:*

>

> What makes the kind of play that you do with your child when you are

> doing Floortime play different from typical play with a child that a

> parent would ordinarily do?

>

> *Answer from Dr. Stanley Greenspan:*

>

> Dr. Greenspan: The question is, “What makes Floortime play different

> from typical play?†What makes it different is that the parent is

> working and the child is having fun. Over time, the parent or the

> therapist will have fun too, but you are challenging the child to do

> really six things at once, so the highest level the child can, he or

> she may not be capable of all six initially, but eventually we want to

> get them there.

>

> You are challenging the child by following their interest and their

> lead, so it’s like play, if they are interested in dollies or if they

> are interested in a truck, or if they are interested in aimlessly

> wandering around the room, you are taking the lead from them, and then

> you are using their interest to get their focus and attention, to get

> them engaged, and to get two-way communication going – opening and

> closing circles of back-and-forth interaction where they are taking

> initiative. You are trying to get as many of these in a row as

> possible. Then you are trying to also engage the child in what we call

> shared social problem solving, where the child is taking you to the

> door, showing you where the toy is, taking you to the refrigerator,

> etc. Then you are trying to help the child, if they can, speak, use

> ideas, and tell you what they want, what they want to do, or speak for

> the dolly and you speak for the other dolly. Then you are trying to

> help the child connect ideas together, like your dolly might say,

> “Gee, why should we build a house?†or “Why should we feed the baby?â€

> and hopefully you will get an answer, if your child is at that level.

>

> Now not all children will be at all the levels. While you are doing

> this, you are also profiling and tuning in to your child’s nervous

> system. Some children are over reactive to touch and sound so your

> voice is extra soothing. Some children are under reactive and need

> extra energy in your voice to get their attention, so you energize up.

> For the child who is aimlessly avoiding and walks away from you every

> time you come near them, you are getting “playfully obstructive†– you

> may get in front of them and play a cat-and-mouse game so they have to

> scoot around you, or build a little fence around them with your hands

> and then they have to duck under the fence or say “open†to get away

> from the fence.

>

> So basically, Floortime is a special kind of play where you are

> harnessing all these abilities of the child by tailoring your

> relationship to the child’s nervous system, and having fun because you

> are following the child’s leads and interests. Then when the child

> looks at you or giggles or talks to you, it’s meaningful. It’s not

> contrived, it’s not forced, and it’s not a rote skill. That’s what

> makes Floortime special. That’s why we call the model the “DIR Modelâ€

> – because the “D†part means we focus in on whether the child needs

> more work on engagement or two-way communication, the “I†is focusing

> in on their individual ways of their biologically based ways of

> dealing with sensations like being over or under reactive, and the “Râ€

> is learning relationships that are tailored to their nervous system,

> and meet them where they are at their developmental level. So that’s

> what makes it a special kind of play.

>

>

>

>

>

> CReece

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> Dining, Movies, Events, News more. Try it out!

> <http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> When my son was 3 or so I found that getting down on his level and

playing

> with things he really liked for example letters of the alphabet

made out of

> foam, got his attention and held it. ... Later I found out about

Floortime and it all made sense to me. ... If you want to spend a

great deal more money,

> you can attend conferences, buy videos, and even hire a consultant -

but

> none of that is really necessary. By Jo Rudy

> What Is The Floortime Treatment for Autism?

Does anybody have any BTDT with these types of methods for older

Asperger kids? My 14yo son with Asperger has very good verbal skills,

but doesn't seem to be able to apply them a lot of times.

Like a lot of parents, I've heard of floortime and discovered very

similar things on my own anyway. But, my son still both talks and

writes very little when it needs to be on demand. It is to the point

where it is a problem. People can't tell what he means, and teachers

can't tell what he knows. He doesn't go much beyond single word,

simple descriptives and can't seem to fill in the details.

He also appears to have difficulty " self-talking " , i.e., problem

solving--even at a very basic level sometimes. That is, he shuts down

quickly when he gets stressed, and sometimes it doesn't take much to

get him stressed. How does one teach self-talking--diagrams? He gets

very impatient and stressed with that for some reason.

I'm one of those who has never been able to find meaningful speech

therapy. I've even gone to places that say they specialize in autism,

and they don't know what to do. I talk to the directors of the

places, and they either don't know what I'm talking about or say there

just aren't any speech therapists out there in our geographic area.

(I'm north of Houston--Montgomery County.)

So, we're trying cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) right now. I'm

hoping there will be some overlap in the skills taught.

OK, enough whining. My question--of all the links/info being listed

in this thread--are any of them appropriate for teens with

Asperger/HFA? Anybody know?

I'm getting to the point where I think the methodologies used between

classic autism and things like Asperger don't need to be as different

as a lot of people think--it is more a matter of whether it keeps

going far enough up the high-functioning end. A lot of these

therapies seem to end before the child is fully-functioning and there

is no direction after that point. I guess the prevailing wisdom is

that they will figure it out on their own at that point? This isn't

happening with my kid--so far anyway.

Thanks!

Ruth

[Guest guest]

Trina,

My son reacted the same way when we tried Floortime. He had

no play skills, so he just sat there. Don’t learn much from just sitting.

About his only activity then was lining things up, and I was NOT going to copy

that dysfunctional activity with him! (Although I did because I was desperate,

and it didn’t work).

It just didn’t work for him, but then many things we

tried did not. Just goes to show how different every kid is.

nna

[Guest guest]

Ruth,

You might try some things like social skills training

(especially with an emphasis on problem solving strategies) and repetition of

role playing. When a behavior becomes ingrained and more automatic, it is more

likely to be accessed by someone who has difficulty expressing themselves

orally due to processing time. Another possible effective strategy is the use

of video modeling…there is more and more research being written on the

effectiveness of this with AS kids.

We have used both of these with my AS daughter who is now

21. She, however, talks endlessly. But, she did have the same problem about

accessing her language under high stress situations. It helped immensely.

nna

[Guest guest]

>

> You might try some things like social skills training (especially

with an

> emphasis on problem solving strategies) and repetition of role

playing. When

> a behavior becomes ingrained and more automatic, it is more likely to be

> accessed by someone who has difficulty expressing themselves orally

due to

> processing time. Another possible effective strategy is the use of video

> modeling.there is more and more research being written on the

effectiveness

> of this with AS kids.

Oh, we do, nna. And I have to say, that that is one of the

therapies he responds to. Those work very well for behaviors that can

be modeled and practiced. I can't do it very much because none of

them take insurance and I can't afford it all the time. Luckily,

behaviors like these are not his biggest challenge and it doesn't take

much to help him in these areas.

But, I run into the same problem here as I do in speech for more

abstract and generalized concepts. The groups are overwhelmingly for

younger kids and lower functioning kids. I get mostly blank looks

when I try talking about theory of mind and attribution--which is what

my son has problems with. Same for self-talk and taking perspective

at higher levels.

So, this is why we are moving on to CBT. I'll probably also put him

in a social skills group that I just found for boys his age whenever

we can afford it again, although who knows when that will be.

Anyway, I guess what I'm looking for are things similar to floortime,

since that worked for my son when he was young, except for HF teens.

People are throwing a lot of resources out there--I'm wondering if any

of them have been tried with older kids? I'm talking about things

parents can do themselves at home. I assume since very little, if

any, professional or school help is available, that this is what

people are doing--perhaps combined with CBT or some type of

psychotherapy and social skills training/groups?

Ruth

[Guest guest]

Ruth,

Where are you located? If you are in my area, I can give you some

resources.

nna

[Guest guest]

>

> Where are you located? If you are in my area, I can give you some

> resources.

Thanks! I'm in southern Montgomery County, which is just north of

Houston. To be honest, though, I am not interested in SLPs at the

moment! I just spent an exhausting few months trying out/talking

to the directors at a couple of different places which had good

recommendations, to no avail. I'm going to try something else for

awhile (the CBT therapy). I can't afford to do all the different

types of therapies at the same time anyway. I would be interested in

any good CBT therapists that specialize in Asperger/Autism and take

insurance, just in case this one doesn't work out and to give myself a

choice. We just started, and it is too soon to tell.

Ruth

[Guest guest]

I think this is where Floortime and Son-Rise diverge. It's not just about copying the behavior, but doing the behavior so that you understand what they are getting out of it. used to lick the walls. That is where we started in our attempts using Son-Rise to get eye contact. I licked the walls not just to copy him, but to understand what was so great about this. I found out it was cold, it was bumpy, it was bitter. I used grossly exaggerated movements in licking the wall. He turned to look. I praised his beautiful eyes. Then I eventually delayed my response, and he began to look to see if I was going to do it. It eventually led to him smiling at me, then him laughing with me, and eventually he stopped licking the walls. I wanted to know why he was fascinated with ceiling fans, so I laid on the floor for 10-15 minutes and I concentrated on the fan, and you know what happened? I had a chemical reaction within my body. And I said, "A-ha, now I get it. It must have released a chemical in me that calmed me. Perhaps the same happened for him. By not labeling the behavior as appropriate or inappropriate, the child looks at you and says, "Hey you like to do the same things I do," and you begin to build a bridge. You emote the attitude that says, "You know, it is okay where you are at right now because it is safe and comfortable, and I'm going to be right here when you need me. You are engaged without putting pressure on them to perform.

Some people's children have recovered using Son-Rise alone (or Son-Rise with biomedical intervention, diet). I found that Son-Rise achieved a certain level of success, in fact, his social skills soared higher than any of his other skills like gross motor, fine motor, but I found that he needed structure to move forward and some people who used to be at Son-Rise went into business for themselves and they incorporated from all the different areas and individualized a program just for your child. They were so incredibly helpful and moved forward greatly, until the great education letdown of August 2005-Dec 2006 in Conroe ISD where he then lost 81% of his skills (as tested on ABLLS/ABLLS-R).

Of course, I don't know a lot about floortime, so please forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what the program is about.

Hilda

My son reacted the same way when we tried Floortime. He had no play skills, so he just sat there. Don’t learn much from just sitting. About his only activity then was lining things up, and I was NOT going to copy that dysfunctional activity with him! (Although I did because I was desperate, and it didn’t work).New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News more. Try it out!

[Guest guest]

Ruth,

I would suggest that you

contact CARD. Dr. Grenpeesheh, to my knowledge, is one of the only people

who has developed a curriculum for Theory of Mind and executive functioning in

the behavior community. What distinguishes that program is that they

include Test of Problem Solving and other pragmatic assessments as a part of

their standard assessments. . . .something no other behavior program that I am

aware of in Texas does.

CARD would be willing to travel

to you if you could gather a few people for a training. You may even

approach the local special ed director or the local ESC to send some of their

people because I can guarantee you they need this for their HFA kids are

probably struggling to reinvent it just like most people are.

Contact their Austin office :

Center for Autism and Related Disorders, Inc. (CARD) 3001 Bee Cave Rd. Suite 150, Austin,

TX 78746 www.centerforautism.com cardaustin@...

Hope this helps!

S.

>

> You might try some things like social skills training (especially

with an

> emphasis on problem solving strategies) and repetition of role

playing. When

> a behavior becomes ingrained and more automatic, it is more likely to be

> accessed by someone who has difficulty expressing themselves orally

due to

> processing time. Another possible effective strategy is the use of video

> modeling.there is more and more research being written on the

effectiveness

> of this with AS kids.

Oh, we do, nna. And I have to say, that that is one of the

therapies he responds to. Those work very well for behaviors that can

be modeled and practiced. I can't do it very much because none of

them take insurance and I can't afford it all the time. Luckily,

behaviors like these are not his biggest challenge and it doesn't take

much to help him in these areas.

But, I run into the same problem here as I do in speech for more

abstract and generalized concepts. The groups are overwhelmingly for

younger kids and lower functioning kids. I get mostly blank looks

when I try talking about theory of mind and attribution--which is what

my son has problems with. Same for self-talk and taking perspective

at higher levels.

So, this is why we are moving on to CBT. I'll probably also put him

in a social skills group that I just found for boys his age whenever

we can afford it again, although who knows when that will be.

Anyway, I guess what I'm looking for are things similar to floortime,

since that worked for my son when he was young, except for HF teens.

People are throwing a lot of resources out there--I'm wondering if any

of them have been tried with older kids? I'm talking about things

parents can do themselves at home. I assume since very little, if

any, professional or school help is available, that this is what

people are doing--perhaps combined with CBT or some type of

psychotherapy and social skills training/groups?

Ruth

" You're

a shining star, no matter who you are.

Shining

bright to see, what you can truly be. "

Earth

Wind & Fire

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[Guest guest]

>

> I would suggest that you contact CARD. Dr. Grenpeesheh, to my

knowledge, is

> one of the only people who has developed a curriculum for Theory of

Mind and

> executive functioning in the behavior community. What distinguishes

that

> program is that they include Test of Problem Solving and other pragmatic

> assessments as a part of their standard assessments. . . .something

no other

> behavior program that I am aware of in Texas does.

Thanks, . Do you know if they take insurance or are affordable?

I guess I'm kinda getting side-tracked. What I really was wondering

was if anybody had tried manipulating Son-Rise or

Floortime--themselves, not paying someone else to do it--for older,

higher functioning kids and knew of any good online sources or books.

For the most part, I can't afford things like the above (they rarely

take insurance) and we don't get any services from the schools, so

that leaves it up to me. Which I guess is normal since everything

pretty much comes down to money.

It sounds like a good program though--so thanks for posting it.

Ruth

[Guest guest]

>

> I would suggest that you contact CARD. Dr. Grenpeesheh, to my

knowledge, is

> one of the only people who has developed a curriculum for Theory of

Mind and

> executive functioning in the behavior community. What distinguishes

that

> program is that they include Test of Problem Solving and other pragmatic

> assessments as a part of their standard assessments. . . .something

no other

> behavior program that I am aware of in Texas does.

Thanks, . Do you know if they take insurance or are affordable?

I guess I'm kinda getting side-tracked. What I really was wondering

was if anybody had tried manipulating Son-Rise or

Floortime--themselves, not paying someone else to do it--for older,

higher functioning kids and knew of any good online sources or books.

For the most part, I can't afford things like the above (they rarely

take insurance) and we don't get any services from the schools, so

that leaves it up to me. Which I guess is normal since everything

pretty much comes down to money.

It sounds like a good program though--so thanks for posting it.

Ruth

They are negotiating with insurance providers as we speak. .

.. . .but whether your plan would cover it and how is a WHOLE other question.

I do know when I priced the consulting bit. . .it wasn’t

too expensive. That’s why I suggested inviting their person to come

to you and gather up some local families and speech pathologists etc. who would

be interested in this info and split the cost with them. You may even be

able to get a local autism support group to host a meeting on this because it’s

a topic in demand for more than just a few people I think.

I do know that when I went to the Son-Rise website (don’t

all you ABA people gasp in horror), I saw that Ron Kaufman mentioned adapting

Son-Rise techniques for HFA kids. . . . .so I’m sure they are doing it.

S.

" Here in America we are descended in

blood and in spirit

from revolutionists and rebels - men and

women

who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine.

As their heirs, may we never confuse honest

dissent with disloyal subversion. "

Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Guest guest]

Well, unfortunately, I don’t live in that area anyway

(although my mother lives in northern Montgomery

county). I live in Tarrant County in the Fort

Worth area!

nna

[Guest guest]

Son Rise is about the entire family, not just the child. It isn't just about inviting your child to change; it is about changing yourself from within as well.

These are two paragraphs that were part of our instructional manual.

Often, parents and professionals look to us for the “tools†and “techniques†which make our programs so successful, as if the “miracle†is in the content or style of presentation to the child. Certainly we can and do teach a specific, highly effective educational process, but its power has no meaning without the total acceptance of the parent or teacher (acceptance of themselves as well as the child they want to help).

Another paragraph:

The traditional vision of education focuses on “filling†the child’s mind with information and asking them to develop certain skills according to pre-set standards. The Son-Rise Program perspective is quite different: We believe that the most effective way to “teach†children is to draw information, understanding and insight from them (like a loving midwife assisting at a birth), to help them develop and build on their talents, skills and interests, to introduce a host of learning situations in which they can explore themselves and the materials freely, to trust and assist them as they expand their base of curiosity and involvement. In effect, we reverse the roles. The parent, the instructor, the therapist or facilitator becomes the student of the child’s world...observing, learning, assisting, and supporting the youngster’s flowering in a loving and nonjudgmental environment. The child becomes the teacher...guiding the process, discovering and exploring himself or herself and the world and in effect, pointing the way. The result: Going with instead of against the child leads to the possibility of having your son or daughter become more and more motivated to explore and develop. Their motivation is the key factor that determines the potential of any program. Often, parents and professionals helping special children have specific agendas: Teach my child or student how to walk, talk, use the toilet, eat with utensils, read or perform any number of other practical and useful skills. Certainly, we would want those capabilities realized with every child; yet, in a Son-Rise Program, we give up the demand that we control the agenda. The specific skills learned now are much less important than the long-range impact of encouraging a fully participating and motivated youngster. The most effective and joyous way we know to facilitate such an internal yearning and delight in a child is to demonstrate our love, support, and trust in his or her own self-guidance and process.

Hope this helps some.

Hilda

> > I would suggest that you contact CARD. Dr. Grenpeesheh, to myknowledge, is> one of the only people who has developed a curriculum for Theory ofMind and> executive functioning in the behavior community. What distinguishesthat> program is that they include Test of Problem Solving and other pragmatic> assessments as a part of their standard assessments. . . .somethingno other> behavior program that I am aware of in Texas does. Thanks, . Do you know if they take insurance or are affordable?I guess I'm kinda getting side-tracked. What I really was wonderingwas if anybody had tried manipulating Son-Rise orFloortime--themselves, not paying someone else to do it--for older,higher functioning kids and knew of any good online sources or books.For the most part, I can't afford things like the above (they rarelytake insurance) and we don't get any services from the schools, sothat leaves it up to me. Which I guess is normal since everythingpretty much comes down to money.It sounds like a good program though--so thanks for posting it.Ruth

They are negotiating with insurance providers as we speak. . . . .but whether your plan would cover it and how is a WHOLE other question.

I do know when I priced the consulting bit. . .it wasn’t too expensive. That’s why I suggested inviting their person to come to you and gather up some local families and speech pathologists etc. who would be interested in this info and split the cost with them. You may even be able to get a local autism support group to host a meeting on this because it’s a topic in demand for more than just a few people I think.

I do know that when I went to the Son-Rise website (don’t all you ABA people gasp in horror), I saw that Ron Kaufman mentioned adapting Son-Rise techniques for HFA kids. . . . .so I’m sure they are doing it.

S.

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit

from revolutionists and rebels - men and women

who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine.

As their heirs, may we never confuse honest

dissent with disloyal subversion. "Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Guest guest]

I would put money into an effort to bring someone from Son-Rise/Option Institute down here to have a start-up workshop in enough people were interested. I don't know if that is feasible, but I think a combination approach really helps many children. I know it helped tremendously.

Hilda

> > I would suggest that you contact CARD. Dr. Grenpeesheh, to myknowledge, is> one of the only people who has developed a curriculum for Theory ofMind and> executive functioning in the behavior community. What distinguishesthat> program is that they include Test of Problem Solving and other pragmatic> assessments as a part of their standard assessments. . . .somethingno other> behavior program that I am aware of in Texas does. Thanks, . Do you know if they take insurance or are affordable?I guess I'm kinda getting side-tracked. What I really was wonderingwas if anybody had tried manipulating Son-Rise orFloortime--themselves, not paying someone else to do it--for older,higher functioning kids and knew of any good online sources or books.For the most part, I can't afford things like the above (they rarelytake insurance) and we don't get any services from the schools, sothat leaves it up to me. Which I guess is normal since everythingpretty much comes down to money.It sounds like a good program though--so thanks for posting it.Ruth

They are negotiating with insurance providers as we speak. . . . .but whether your plan would cover it and how is a WHOLE other question.

I do know when I priced the consulting bit. . .it wasn’t too expensive. That’s why I suggested inviting their person to come to you and gather up some local families and speech pathologists etc. who would be interested in this info and split the cost with them. You may even be able to get a local autism support group to host a meeting on this because it’s a topic in demand for more than just a few people I think.

I do know that when I went to the Son-Rise website (don’t all you ABA people gasp in horror), I saw that Ron Kaufman mentioned adapting Son-Rise techniques for HFA kids. . . . .so I’m sure they are doing it.

S.

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit

from revolutionists and rebels - men and women

who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine.

As their heirs, may we never confuse honest

dissent with disloyal subversion. "Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Guest guest]

I just returned from Massachusettes and attended son-rise start up.

I am a changed woman. I have the peace and joy that I had prior to

the diagnosis of autism. More than that even. I have never felt

better. My children are doing so much better and I haven't even

started the therapy. Just my attitude has had major impact on my

children's development. I have other teachers commenting on how much

my son is changing.

I used ABA initially and this combined with intensive diet brought my

son a long way almost to full recovery. Something has been missing

and I didn't think I could get this using ABA.

Through this whole process I've followed my gut even if most didn't

agree. I kept looking and wasn't sure if I would use RDI or son-

rise. I chose son-rise because I believed it would approach the

whole family. We all need to recover. I also chose it because I

just knew in my gut that " this was right. "

I think ABA done well along with healing the body is something I

still believe in, however I know that son-rise is what will fully

recover my son. This isn't being prompted to play or socialize.

This creates a relationship where the child has this desire. The

child wants to relate to people. It's still intensive like ABA, but

the focus is on social/relationship. This was the missing hole in

our home. We are so thrilled and look forward to returning to the

Option Institute.

>

> Son Rise is about the entire family, not just the child. It isn't

just

> about inviting your child to change; it is about changing yourself

from within as

> well.

>

> These are two paragraphs that were part of our instructional

manual.

>

>

> Often, parents and professionals look to us for the “toolsâ€

and “techniquesâ€

> which make our programs so successful, as if the “miracle†is

in the

> content or style of presentation to the child. Certainly we can

and do teach a

> specific, highly effective educational process, but its power has

no meaning

> without the total acceptance of the parent or teacher (acceptance

of themselves

> as well as the child they want to help).

> Another paragraph:

> The traditional vision of education focuses on “filling†the

child’s mind

> with information and asking them to develop certain skills

according to pre-set

> standards. The Son-Rise Program perspective is quite different:

We

> believe that the most effective way to “teach†children is to

draw information,

> understanding and insight from them (like a loving midwife

assisting at a

> birth), to help them develop and build on their talents, skills and

interests, to

> introduce a host of learning situations in which they can explore

themselves

> and the materials freely, to trust and assist them as they expand

their base

> of curiosity and involvement. In effect, we reverse the roles.

The parent,

> the instructor, the therapist or facilitator becomes the student

of the child’

> s world...observing, learning, assisting, and supporting the

youngster’s

> flowering in a loving and nonjudgmental environment. The child

becomes the

> teacher...guiding the process, discovering and exploring himself

or herself and

> the world and in effect, pointing the way. The result: Going

with instead of

> against the child leads to the possibility of having your son or

daughter

> become more and more motivated to explore and develop. Their

motivation is the

> key factor that determines the potential of any program. Often,

parents and

> professionals helping special children have specific agendas:

Teach my

> child or student how to walk, talk, use the toilet, eat with

utensils, read or

> perform any number of other practical and useful skills.

Certainly, we would

> want those capabilities realized with every child; yet, in a Son-

Rise Program,

> we give up the demand that we control the agenda. The specific

skills

> learned now are much less important than the long-range impact of

encouraging a

> fully participating and motivated youngster. The most effective

and joyous way

> we know to facilitate such an internal yearning and delight in a

child is to

> demonstrate our love, support, and trust in his or her own self-

guidance and

> process.

>

>

> Hope this helps some.

>

> Hilda

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 10/16/2008 7:13:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

> chatmom@... writes:

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I would suggest that you contact CARD. Dr. Grenpeesheh, to my

> knowledge, is

> > one of the only people who has developed a curriculum for Theory

of

> Mind and

> > executive functioning in the behavior community. What

distinguishes

> that

> > program is that they include Test of Problem Solving and other

pragmatic

> > assessments as a part of their standard

assessments. . . .something

> no other

> > behavior program that I am aware of in Texas does.

>

> Thanks, . Do you know if they take insurance or are

affordable?

>

> I guess I'm kinda getting side-tracked. What I really was wondering

> was if anybody had tried manipulating Son-Rise or

> Floortime--themselvFloortime--themselv<WBR>es, not paying someone

else

> higher functioning kids and knew of any good online sources or

books.

>

> For the most part, I can't afford things like the above (they

rarely

> take insurance) and we don't get any services from the schools, so

> that leaves it up to me. Which I guess is normal since everything

> pretty much comes down to money.

>

> It sounds like a good program though--so thanks for posting it.

>

> Ruth

> They are negotiating with insurance providers as we

speak. . . . .but

> whether your plan would cover it and how is a WHOLE other

question.

> I do know when I priced the consulting bit. . .it wasn’t too

expensive. That

> ’s why I suggested inviting their person to come to you and

gather up some

> local families and speech pathologists etc. who would be

interested in this

> info and split the cost with them. You may even be able to get a

local autism

> support group to host a meeting on this because it’s a topic in

demand for

> more than just a few people I think.

> I do know that when I went to the Son-Rise website (don’t all

you ABA people

> gasp in horror), I saw that Ron Kaufman mentioned adapting Son-

Rise

> techniques for HFA kids. . . . .so I’m sure they are doing it.

> S.

> " Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit

> from revolutionists and rebels - men and women

> who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine.

> As their heirs, may we never confuse honest

> dissent with disloyal subversion. "

> Dwight D. Eisenhower

>

>

> No virus found in this outgoing message.

> Checked by AVG.

> Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1728 - Release Date:

10/16/2008

> 7:38 AM

>

>

>

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destination.

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>

[Guest guest]



I would be interested in attending such a workshop. Count me in.

Re: Re: Speech Threapy- very long

I would put money into an effort to bring someone from Son-Rise/Option Institute down here to have a start-up workshop in enough people were interested. I don't know if that is feasible, but I think a combination approach really helps many children. I know it helped tremendously.

Hilda

> > I would suggest that you contact CARD. Dr. Grenpeesheh, to myknowledge, is> one of the only people who has developed a curriculum for Theory ofMind and> executive functioning in the behavior community. What distinguishesthat> program is that they include Test of Problem Solving and other pragmatic> assessments as a part of their standard assessments. . . .somethingno other> behavior program that I am aware of in Texas does. Thanks, . Do you know if they take insurance or are affordable?I guess I'm kinda getting side-tracked. What I really was wonderingwas if anybody had tried manipulating Son-Rise orFloortime--themselves, not paying someone else to do it--for older,higher functioning kids and knew of any good online sources or books.For the most part, I can't afford things like the above (they rarelytake insurance) and we don't get any services from the schools, sothat leaves it up to me. Which I guess is normal since everythingpretty much comes down to money.It sounds like a good program though--so thanks for posting it.Ruth

They are negotiating with insurance providers as we speak. . . . .but whether your plan would cover it and how is a WHOLE other question.

I do know when I priced the consulting bit. . .it wasn’t too expensive. That’s why I suggested inviting their person to come to you and gather up some local families and speech pathologists etc. who would be interested in this info and split the cost with them. You may even be able to get a local autism support group to host a meeting on this because it’s a topic in demand for more than just a few people I think.

I do know that when I went to the Son-Rise website (don’t all you ABA people gasp in horror), I saw that Ron Kaufman mentioned adapting Son-Rise techniques for HFA kids. . . . .so I’m sure they are doing it.

S.

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit

from revolutionists and rebels - men and women

who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine.

As their heirs, may we never confuse honest

dissent with disloyal subversion. "Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Guest guest]



Would you give me an example how would this lead into teaching a specific skill?

Thanks,

Re: Re: Speech Threapy- very long

Son Rise is about the entire family, not just the child. It isn't just about inviting your child to change; it is about changing yourself from within as well.

These are two paragraphs that were part of our instructional manual.

Often, parents and professionals look to us for the “tools†and “techniques†which make our programs so successful, as if the “miracle†is in the content or style of presentation to the child. Certainly we can and do teach a specific, highly effective educational process, but its power has no meaning without the total acceptance of the parent or teacher (acceptance of themselves as well as the child they want to help).

Another paragraph:

The traditional vision of education focuses on “filling†the child’s mind with information and asking them to develop certain skills according to pre-set standards. The Son-Rise Program perspective is quite different: We believe that the most effective way to “teach†children is to draw information, understanding and insight from them (like a loving midwife assisting at a birth), to help them develop and build on their talents, skills and interests, to introduce a host of learning situations in which they can explore themselves and the materials freely, to trust and assist them as they expand their base of curiosity and involvement. In effect, we reverse the roles. The parent, the instructor, the therapist or facilitator becomes the student of the child’s world...observing, learning, assisting, and supporting the youngster’s flowering in a loving and nonjudgmental environment. The child becomes the teacher...guiding the process, discovering and exploring himself or herself and the world and in effect, pointing the way. The result: Going with instead of against the child leads to the possibility of having your son or daughter become more and more motivated to explore and develop. Their motivation is the key factor that determines the potential of any program. Often, parents and professionals helping special children have specific agendas: Teach my child or student how to walk, talk, use the toilet, eat with utensils, read or perform any number of other practical and useful skills. Certainly, we would want those capabilities realized with every child; yet, in a Son-Rise Program, we give up the demand that we control the agenda. The specific skills learned now are much less important than the long-range impact of encouraging a fully participating and motivated youngster. The most effective and joyous way we know to facilitate such an internal yearning and delight in a child is to demonstrate our love, support, and trust in his or her own self-guidance and process.

Hope this helps some.

Hilda

> > I would suggest that you contact CARD. Dr. Grenpeesheh, to myknowledge, is> one of the only people who has developed a curriculum for Theory ofMind and> executive functioning in the behavior community. What distinguishesthat> program is that they include Test of Problem Solving and other pragmatic> assessments as a part of their standard assessments. . . .somethingno other> behavior program that I am aware of in Texas does. Thanks, . Do you know if they take insurance or are affordable?I guess I'm kinda getting side-tracked. What I really was wonderingwas if anybody had tried manipulating Son-Rise orFloortime--themselves, not paying someone else to do it--for older,higher functioning kids and knew of any good online sources or books.For the most part, I can't afford things like the above (they rarelytake insurance) and we don't get any services from the schools, sothat leaves it up to me. Which I guess is normal since everythingpretty much comes down to money.It sounds like a good program though--so thanks for posting it.Ruth

They are negotiating with insurance providers as we speak. . . . .but whether your plan would cover it and how is a WHOLE other question.

I do know when I priced the consulting bit. . .it wasn’t too expensive. That’s why I suggested inviting their person to come to you and gather up some local families and speech pathologists etc. who would be interested in this info and split the cost with them. You may even be able to get a local autism support group to host a meeting on this because it’s a topic in demand for more than just a few people I think.

I do know that when I went to the Son-Rise website (don’t all you ABA people gasp in horror), I saw that Ron Kaufman mentioned adapting Son-Rise techniques for HFA kids. . . . .so I’m sure they are doing it.

S.

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit

from revolutionists and rebels - men and women

who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine.

As their heirs, may we never confuse honest

dissent with disloyal subversion. "Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Guest guest]

> They are negotiating with insurance providers as we speak. . . . .but

> whether your plan would cover it and how is a WHOLE other question.

I always have the exact opposite problem. I never have problems

getting speech/OT covered--they cover evaluations and unlimited

therapy sessions. The problem is that very few providers take

insurance, at least not the more specialized ones. The ones that do

take insurance, IME, aren't specialized or experienced enough to know

how to treat my son (or something). I think a lot of providers tell

people that " oh, insurance would never pay for this anyway " to cover

up their own greediness and laziness. The only problem would be if

their treatments are considered experimental and the insurance company

is not convinced they are not actually doing anything useful. Now, I

realize everybody's insurance is not as good as mine--but there are a

lot of employers out there covering speech and OT.

> That�s why I suggested inviting their person to come to you and

gather up

> some local families and speech pathologists etc. who would be

interested in

> this info and split the cost with them. You may even be able to get

a local

> autism support group to host a meeting on this because it�s a topic in

> demand for more than just a few people I think.

Well, this is my problem. When you aren't ever given any services,

you don't ever meet other parents with disabilities similar to your

child's. Since all the other special needs kids get services, our

family's needs are very different from theirs, since we are on our

own. So, traditional special needs parents groups are pretty useless.

Everybody just gives me blank looks. I've had social workers laugh

in my face and say things like " well, good luck with that " ! If

there are people with kids with similar problems on these local

internet lists, I'm not seeing any serious interest. I think most of

them are either doing the private SPED school thing or homeschooling,

so also have different needs. Anyway, although there are definitely

similarities, the treatment for Asperger is very different than for

classic autism. And I think Asperger with high IQ is somewhat rare.

They told us at Texas Children's that they don't very often see kids

with Asperger with IQs as high as my son's, and everyone we take him

too acts like it is unusual. It is turning out to be the thing that

is maybe the hardest to get help for. People can't get past it to

understand the disabilities. They can't tell what he knows and what

he doesn't. I've met people on the internet whose kids have IQs much

higher than my son's (he is borderline intellectually gifted, as far

as we can tell) with Asperger, so I know they are out there. I'm

really rambling though...

> I do know that when I went to the Son-Rise website (don�t all you

ABA people

> gasp in horror), I saw that Ron Kaufman mentioned adapting Son-Rise

> techniques for HFA kids. . . . .so I�m sure they are doing it.

I noticed that too. And all the above said, although I don't

personally know any parents, I do know a therapy center that might

possibly be interested. So, I'll see what they say. I don't think

this will be an immediate answer though. I've saved your e-mail, so I

have all the info for further reference and for them.

Ruth

[Guest guest]

>

> Son Rise is about the entire family, not just the child. It isn't

just

> about inviting your child to change; it is about changing yourself

from within as

> well.

Yes, this does help, Hilda. Actually, I can really see this. It is

kind of the way I have always intuitively dealt with my kids,

particularly my Asperger son, but I'm sure it gets a lot more explicit

and concrete than I have ever been able to get on my own.

For those of you who are trying to picture this and see how it would

help your child learn new skills... I'm not sure I really have an

explanation, but I can vouch for the fact that if you get into your

child's world like this it somehow helps bring them out into yours. I

think it is the power of the human connection. Maybe a better way to

(or just another way) describe it is it motivates them to expand their

world more to where it starts meeting others' worlds. Picture a venn

diagram. It stimulates their minds and emotions.

I think it is necessary for autistic kids to learn like this since

they don't follow other's leads very well. And I think a lot of them

get very good at self-learning. Not that they totally teach

themselves and re-invent all the wheels all over, but that they need

to take the initiative most of the time in order to get anywhere. And

the more they're accommodated, the more they can just relax and focus

on learning instead of spending all their energy figuring out/fighting

what other people want every minute of the day.

But, of course, not everybody or every situation is going to allow

this sort of environment. So, somehow you have to compromise. I

guess that would be the real test of son-rise--can it deal with

reality at the end of the day? I'm wondering how they advise one deal

with all the teachers and relatives/family members that won't ever

read about or go to a seminar on son-rise?

Ruth

[Guest guest]

> For those of you who are trying to picture this and see how it would

> help your child learn new skills... I'm not sure I really have an

> explanation, but I can vouch for the fact that if you get into your

> child's world like this it somehow helps bring them out into yours. I

> think it is the power of the human connection. Maybe a better way to

> (or just another way) describe it is it motivates them to expand their

> world more to where it starts meeting others' worlds. Picture a venn

> diagram. It stimulates their minds and emotions.

I also meant to say, I think this helps them learn new skills simply

by getting their attention. When they see you doing/saying something

that has always just been their and their only interest and they've

never seen that before--it gets their attention. Then they look at

you, if they are higher functioning, maybe start talking, and I think

at that point they can learn the normal way, more or less. I guess

that is a very wordy way of saying it opens them up to learning.

Ruth

[Guest guest]

You said a mouthful there! Our kids are individuals first

and happen to have autism second. Sure hard to remember that when they

are in the middle of a melt-down though!!

Tonya

From: Texas-Autism-Advocacy

[mailto:Texas-Autism-Advocacy ] On Behalf Of nna

Bond

It just

didn’t work for him, but then many things we tried did not. Just goes to

show how different every kid is.

[Guest guest]

It's the whole process. The first step you have to establish is the connection. You have to become your child's favorite toy in the room. When we were up at Son-Rise, because they put aside assumptions on why would do this or that, they try different things to see if they get a response. They noticed, if I can recall, was only 3 at the time and this was almost 10 years ago, that he was touching a certain area of his tummy, they would encourage him to go into the bathroom. He did and was successful several times. I never picked up on that.

The reward for kids in the Son-Rise program is praise. They begin to love just praise. People at Conroe ISD were amazed that food was not a motivator for , but was. Now, of course, likes to be rewarded with a minute of Winnie the Pooh, but when he and I are together, praise still works most of the time.

He also liked to lick pages of his book and flip the book pages rapidly, so it appeared like a movie. They sat there and did the same thing. They also did the same moaning he did. What we discovered was many things about these behaviors: He loved the color red. When he made the moaning sounds, your tongue actually vibrated and perhaps he was trying to create sensation there (and later we found out that cerebral palsy low motor tone was affecting his tongue muscles, so I think their observation was dead-on right). At this point, of course, we are just trying to get eye contact from because that was how involved he was. So at the group meeting at the end of the week, we all brainstormed about how we could use the color "red" as a motivator for language and eye contact. Well, we could use red paint or lipstick under our eyes so that his eyes would be drawn up to our eyes. We could use red lipstick on our mouth so that he might be able to focus on our mouths better. We could suck on a red ice pop or a red candy or anything that made our tongue red so he could see the movement of the tongue. So by engaging in the behaviors and not making judgments about them as being appropriate or inappropriate, we were able to make observations about what was going on in ourselves when we did the behavior and in him (like them noticing he stopped turning the pages of the book when he saw the red color).

For the little boy who attended that the BBC documentary was made about, while there, the child's language increased dramatically, his tantruming stopped, and he made a huge leap in creative play because during an opportunity of him playing with a toy, his mother saw an opportunity to teach.

With , we heard him speak for the very first time up there. We heard him say I love you (more like I of oo). We heard him say "rr" "rrr" "rrr" when we were playing a game where he was laying down on the ground and I was singing "Row Your Boat." I stopped singing, waiting for a sound from him, and not only did he say the "rr" sound, but he tapped in rhythm. I didn't catch it while I was in the room, but I definitely saw it on the videotape playback when it was pointed out to me. We played another game where he loved to lay down on this blanket that was springy (it was crocheted or knit). He was only 3 remember, and we somehow just started scooping him up in it and then spinning him around in circles. And I'd tell him a story about how I was the stork and we were flying around in the sky to deliver him. I would stop, unfold him and tell him, "Say spin." And I would wait and be patient. The second he made ANY sound at all, even if it wasn't close for "spin", I would spin him around. What I was teaching him was that if he gave me language, it would get him what he wanted. Eventually within the same session, it emerged as "nn" or "in." It was something to work into. Sometimes, the language was delayed. We had moved on to a different activity and then 30 seconds later he would say something, and I realized he had said "eeyore." So I would stop and say, "You said, "Eeyore," and Praise him and go grab "Eeyore" because he had said it, and I got him "Eeyore" -- regardless of what we were doing at the moment. He at that point was directing where we went.

Does that help any?

Hilda

Would you give me an example how would this lead into teaching a specific skill?

Thanks,

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[Guest guest]

Hi Hilda,

Thank you for taking the time and writing this detailed email with examples. What you are describing to me is very similar to what I call (maybe erroneously) Verbal Behavior. I try to capitalize on something of interest to and use it as a teaching opportunity to demonstrate that using language (spoken or via a device) is valuable. For example is very rigid about closing doors and turning off lights. I purposely open a cabinet door so he can ask me to close it whether using his Dynavox and making an attempt of saying or signing "close". the reward is actually closing the cabinet and he is satisfied. Also, the "becoming a toy" expression is also used in the ABA world as "pairing" with the reinforcer, so I am not sure I understand the difference.

However, his expressive language is stuck, there is no amount of reinforcement,motivation, or praise has been successfully shaping his words. He is stuck on one-syllable sounds, and can not pronounce the majority of the consonants sounds.

What I was asking is how is Son-rise different in teaching toilet training for example. What you described is still considered a reward system which is similar to ABA principles.

How do you shape the language? or teach a new skill? Do you use errorless learning? Do you use prompting/fading...etc? Do you assume the child will imitate you?

I am just not clear ....

Thanks,

Re: Re: Speech Threapy- very long

It's the whole process. The first step you have to establish is the connection. You have to become your child's favorite toy in the room. When we were up at Son-Rise, because they put aside assumptions on why would do this or that, they try different things to see if they get a response. They noticed, if I can recall, was only 3 at the time and this was almost 10 years ago, that he was touching a certain area of his tummy, they would encourage him to go into the bathroom. He did and was successful several times. I never picked up on that.

The reward for kids in the Son-Rise program is praise. They begin to love just praise. People at Conroe ISD were amazed that food was not a motivator for , but was. Now, of course, likes to be rewarded with a minute of Winnie the Pooh, but when he and I are together, praise still works most of the time.

He also liked to lick pages of his book and flip the book pages rapidly, so it appeared like a movie. They sat there and did the same thing. They also did the same moaning he did. What we discovered was many things about these behaviors: He loved the color red. When he made the moaning sounds, your tongue actually vibrated and perhaps he was trying to create sensation there (and later we found out that cerebral palsy low motor tone was affecting his tongue muscles, so I think their observation was dead-on right). At this point, of course, we are just trying to get eye contact from because that was how involved he was. So at the group meeting at the end of the week, we all brainstormed about how we could use the color "red" as a motivator for language and eye contact. Well, we could use red paint or lipstick under our eyes so that his eyes would be drawn up to our eyes. We could use red lipstick on our mouth so that he might be able to focus on our mouths better. We could suck on a red ice pop or a red candy or anything that made our tongue red so he could see the movement of the tongue. So by engaging in the behaviors and not making judgments about them as being appropriate or inappropriate, we were able to make observations about what was going on in ourselves when we did the behavior and in him (like them noticing he stopped turning the pages of the book when he saw the red color).

For the little boy who attended that the BBC documentary was made about, while there, the child's language increased dramatically, his tantruming stopped, and he made a huge leap in creative play because during an opportunity of him playing with a toy, his mother saw an opportunity to teach.

With , we heard him speak for the very first time up there. We heard him say I love you (more like I of oo). We heard him say "rr" "rrr" "rrr" when we were playing a game where he was laying down on the ground and I was singing "Row Your Boat." I stopped singing, waiting for a sound from him, and not only did he say the "rr" sound, but he tapped in rhythm. I didn't catch it while I was in the room, but I definitely saw it on the videotape playback when it was pointed out to me. We played another game where he loved to lay down on this blanket that was springy (it was crocheted or knit). He was only 3 remember, and we somehow just started scooping him up in it and then spinning him around in circles. And I'd tell him a story about how I was the stork and we were flying around in the sky to deliver him. I would stop, unfold him and tell him, "Say spin." And I would wait and be patient. The second he made ANY sound at all, even if it wasn't close for "spin", I would spin him around. What I was teaching him was that if he gave me language, it would get him what he wanted. Eventually within the same session, it emerged as "nn" or "in." It was something to work into. Sometimes, the language was delayed. We had moved on to a different activity and then 30 seconds later he would say something, and I realized he had said "eeyore." So I would stop and say, "You said, "Eeyore," and Praise him and go grab "Eeyore" because he had said it, and I got him "Eeyore" -- regardless of what we were doing at the moment. He at that point was directing where we went.

Does that help any?

Hilda

Would you give me an example how would this lead into teaching a specific skill?

Thanks,

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[Guest guest]

Often when speech does not come you have to look beyond behavior beyond

child centric engagement and look to the brain for answers. No amount of

pairing no amount of ABA is enough or will ever be enough for some

children to attain expressive language. I know many children and teens

who have some language of one word responses that is barely intelligible

to anyone but their primary caregiver despite years of ABA ,VB and every

other new technique that has come around in the past 10 years or so. No

one wants to hear that their child may never speak in sentences or speak

expressively. But the word speak is a misnomer. If to speak you mean

verbal speech than yes that may not come. But if you release yourself to

the idea that the speech, the thoughts are what counts, and finding the

way in which to express yourself successfully so that anyone can

understand you is the key, then you are on the right track. My example

is an interesting case. My son is quite verbal but cannot tell me a

story unless given a letterboard. He can verbally tell me he wants

something, he's sad or happy who took him to class ate with him at lunch

etc but cannot ask me a question for something like " Who is that? " or

" What is that? " . He can read out loud a new story but answers questions

on a letterboard about the story. Before I realized that at least for

him (and now I realize MANY others) the exercise of answering questions

on a letterboard may just be the EXERCISE his brain needs on that speech

pathway to actually get him to speak. But, if that does not come I have

a letterboard, he can type and his Autism is not forcing him to be

silent. I encourage you, all of you really to look into RPM. Because

contrary to what I thought it is not just for non verbal kids and using

the letterboard has not stopped my son from speaking in fact it may

actually be helping him be more verbal. I'll let you know....his life

and his journey is making a heck of a book!

Keep working.

Trina

> you are describing to me is very similar to what I call (maybe

> erroneously) Verbal Behavior. I try to capitalize on something of

> interest to and use it as a teaching opportunity to demonstrate

> that using language (spoken or via a device) is valuable. For example

> is very rigid about closing doors and turning off lights. I

> purposely open a cabinet door so he can ask me to close it whether

> using his Dynavox and making an attempt of saying or signing " close " .

> the reward is actually closing the cabinet and he is satisfied.

> Also, the " becoming a toy " expression is also used in the ABA world

> as " pairing " with the reinforcer, so I am not sure I understand the

> difference.

>

> However, his expressive language is stuck, there is no amount of

> reinforcement,motivation, or praise has been successfully shaping his

> words. He is stuck on one-syllable sounds, and can not pronounce the

> majority of the consonants sounds.

>

> What I was asking is how is Son-rise different in teaching toilet

> training for example. What you described is still considered a reward

> system which is similar to ABA principles.

>

> How do you shape the language? or teach a new skill? Do you use

> errorless learning? Do you use prompting/fading...etc? Do you

> assume the child will imitate you?

>

> I am just not clear ....

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

> * Re: Re: Speech Threapy- very long

>

> It's the whole process. The first step you have to establish is

> the connection. You have to become your child's favorite toy in

> the room. When we were up at Son-Rise, because they put aside

> assumptions on why would do this or that, they try

> different things to see if they get a response. They noticed, if

> I can recall, was only 3 at the time and this was almost

> 10 years ago, that he was touching a certain area of his tummy,

> they would encourage him to go into the bathroom. He did and was

> successful several times. I never picked up on that.

>

> The reward for kids in the Son-Rise program is praise. They begin

> to love just praise. People at Conroe ISD were amazed that food

> was not a motivator for , but was. Now, of course,

> likes to be rewarded with a minute of Winnie the Pooh, but

> when he and I are together, praise still works most of the time.

>

> He also liked to lick pages of his book and flip the book pages

> rapidly, so it appeared like a movie. They sat there and did the

> same thing. They also did the same moaning he did. What we

> discovered was many things about these behaviors: He loved the

> color red. When he made the moaning sounds, your tongue actually

> vibrated and perhaps he was trying to create sensation there (and

> later we found out that cerebral palsy low motor tone was

> affecting his tongue muscles, so I think their observation was

> dead-on right). At this point, of course, we are just trying to

> get eye contact from because that was how involved he

> was. So at the group meeting at the end of the week, we all

> brainstormed about how we could use the color " red " as a motivator

> for language and eye contact. Well, we could use red paint or

> lipstick under our eyes so that his eyes would be drawn up to our

> eyes. We could use red lipstick on our mouth so that he might be

> able to focus on our mouths better. We could suck on a red ice

> pop or a red candy or anything that made our tongue red so he

> could see the movement of the tongue. So by engaging in the

> behaviors and not making judgments about them as being appropriate

> or inappropriate, we were able to make observations about what was

> going on in ourselves when we did the behavior and in him (like

> them noticing he stopped turning the pages of the book when he saw

> the red color).

>

> For the little boy who attended that the BBC documentary was made

> about, while there, the child's language increased dramatically,

> his tantruming stopped, and he made a huge leap in creative play

> because during an opportunity of him playing with a toy, his

> mother saw an opportunity to teach.

>

> With , we heard him speak for the very first time up

> there. We heard him say I love you (more like I of oo). We

> heard him say " rr " " rrr " " rrr " when we were playing a game where

> he was laying down on the ground and I was singing " Row Your

> Boat. " I stopped singing, waiting for a sound from him, and not

> only did he say the " rr " sound, but he tapped in rhythm. I didn't

> catch it while I was in the room, but I definitely saw it on the

> videotape playback when it was pointed out to me. We played

> another game where he loved to lay down on this blanket that was

> springy (it was crocheted or knit). He was only 3 remember, and

> we somehow just started scooping him up in it and then spinning

> him around in circles. And I'd tell him a story about how I was

> the stork and we were flying around in the sky to deliver him. I

> would stop, unfold him and tell him, " Say spin. " And I would wait

> and be patient. The second he made ANY sound at all, even if it

> wasn't close for " spin " , I would spin him around. What I was

> teaching him was that if he gave me language, it would get him

> what he wanted. Eventually within the same session, it emerged as

> " nn " or " in. " It was something to work into. Sometimes, the

> language was delayed. We had moved on to a different activity and

> then 30 seconds later he would say something, and I realized he

> had said " eeyore. " So I would stop and say, " You said, " Eeyore, "

> and Praise him and go grab " Eeyore " because he had said it, and I

> got him " Eeyore " -- regardless of what we were doing at the

> moment. He at that point was directing where we went.

>

> Does that help any?

>

> Hilda

>

> In a message dated 10/17/2008 6:55:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

> ginaam@... writes:

>

> Would you give me an example how would this lead into teaching

> a specific skill?

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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