Re: Bitter Clabbered Milk?

April 3, 2012

The bitterness comes from the breakdown of milk protein into bitter peptides, by pyscrotrophic (cold-loving) bacteria. Its doubtful that the feed has anything to do with. When the milk is refrigerated for that long, there is a build-up of cold-loving bacteria in it.

The best way to avoid or minimize the bitterness would be to add a culture to it, to make sure the lactic acid is dominant.-Bill

Bitter Clabbered Milk?

I'm having a problem with clabbered raw milk turning bitter not sour, as

soon as it clabbers. I very much like what plain yogurt, cultured

buttermilk, home make kefir, vinegar and real fermented sauerkraut taste

like. This is different, not at all pleasant, but not unbearable either

if one is accustomed to eating greens and medicinal herbs. On the other

hand, I have never tasted clabbered raw milk, so I might not know

exactly what to look for.

Procedure:

The milk was about 3 weeks old (since milking) and still tasted sweet

and had been refrigerated the whole time. I left the milk in the plastic

bottle in which it came in on the counter top with the lid on it. I did

not hide the milk from the light. I did open it to use some of it, so

some air did get to it just before clabbering. It took several days

(3?) but it clabbered and also separated into solids and whey at

different levels in the bottle.

I let the liquid drain out through a cotton cloth to separate the whey

and curts/cheese.

The liquid portion tasted quite bitter and not very sour, it at all.

The cheese portion tasted like cheese but also a little bitter, but I

think that came from the liquid that I was not able to squeeze out of

the cheese (still using the cloth).

Questions:

+ When clabbering milk, does one let air get into it by putting a cloth

on the top rather than having a tight lid?

+ Does properly clabbered milk separate, with one of the layers being

clear (translucent)?

+ Is this bitter substance in the whey bad for you? I think it gave me

indigestion of some sort. I think it also gave me a strange aftertaste

in my mouth (or nose, or lungs) for a day or more. The aftertaste was

similar in some way to the taste one getts when recovering from a

serious cold or flu.

What are the names of the bacteria that are present in healthy raw milk

and at what temperatures do they prefer to grow and predominate the culture?

Possible Answers:

Maybe the whey was bitter because of the plant material that was eaten

by the cows. That is possible, but the milk tasted great and only after

clabbering was it bitter.

Maybe the temperature in the house was too high, about 80 versus 70 or

65 degrees?

A friend said they had gotten the bitter taste when clabbering on the

counter top, but that if the milk was left in the fridge it eventually

clabbered after a long long time and then tasted very good and sour. So

she thought that the temperature made a difference in what bacterial

culture predominated at very low temperature. This friend also doesn't

use much AC so their counter top temperature might have been higher

too. They didn't use the bitter material and used it as fertilizer.

Another friend said they just added raw honey to it to eat it.

The problem could be the prevalent ambient bacteria floating around in

the air where I live or the milk came from, since I had also opened the

milk.

Another consideration is that it might be like the so called " acetone "

smell (or taste?) that some people get when they make kefir again on the

counter top. I have experienced that problem too once in a while but

don't fully remember the detail of what it was or how it tasted.

Thanks for any help!

Grant

------------------------------------

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

Archive search: http://onibasu.com

April 3, 2012

I have some experience with clabbering milk on purpose. I've had a couple of differernt experiences:The success: It separated with beautiful curds that floated to the top, and developed a slight discoloration, which I scrapped off and very hesitatingly tasted. It was very good. Hardly even sour, just tangy. Not bitter. Then there was whey in the middle, and settled on the bottom was another substance which was white and the consistency of fluid yogurt. Don't know exactly what it was. I used the top and the bottom stuff, and it was pretty good, but my family wouldn't eat it.The scarey one: I did not eat the clabbering experiment that had the solids sink to the bottom and the top was fluid with slime. It tasted bitter. Don't know what happened different between the two

batches.

May 26, 2012

If you add a culture to raw milk in the refrigerator, does

it " sour " any faster than if it sours on its own? Also, are

you talking about a powdered culture or any type of culture

(including yogurt or kefir grains). Are there special

cultures that you can buy that are specifically cold-loving?

>

> > Bitter Clabbered Milk?

> >

> > I'm having a problem with clabbered raw milk turning bitter not sour, as

> > soon as it clabbers. I very much like what plain yogurt, cultured

> > buttermilk, home make kefir, vinegar and real fermented sauerkraut taste

> > like. This is different, not at all pleasant, but not unbearable either

> > if one is accustomed to eating greens and medicinal herbs. On the other

> > hand, I have never tasted clabbered raw milk, so I might not know

> > exactly what to look for.

> >

> > Procedure:

> > The milk was about 3 weeks old (since milking) and still tasted sweet

> > and had been refrigerated the whole time. I left the milk in the plastic

> > bottle in which it came in on the counter top with the lid on it. I did

> > not hide the milk from the light. I did open it to use some of it, so

> > some air did get to it just before clabbering. It took several days

> > (3?) but it clabbered and also separated into solids and whey at

> > different levels in the bottle.

> >

> > I let the liquid drain out through a cotton cloth to separate the whey

> > and curts/cheese.

> >

> > The liquid portion tasted quite bitter and not very sour, it at all.

> >

> > The cheese portion tasted like cheese but also a little bitter, but I

> > think that came from the liquid that I was not able to squeeze out of

> > the cheese (still using the cloth).

> >

> > Questions:

> > + When clabbering milk, does one let air get into it by putting a cloth

> > on the top rather than having a tight lid?

> >

> > + Does properly clabbered milk separate, with one of the layers being

> > clear (translucent)?

> >

> > + Is this bitter substance in the whey bad for you? I think it gave me

> > indigestion of some sort. I think it also gave me a strange aftertaste

> > in my mouth (or nose, or lungs) for a day or more. The aftertaste was

> > similar in some way to the taste one getts when recovering from a

> > serious cold or flu.

> >

> > What are the names of the bacteria that are present in healthy raw milk

> > and at what temperatures do they prefer to grow and predominate the

> > culture?

> >

> > Possible Answers:

> > Maybe the whey was bitter because of the plant material that was eaten

> > by the cows. That is possible, but the milk tasted great and only after

> > clabbering was it bitter.

> >

> > Maybe the temperature in the house was too high, about 80 versus 70 or

> > 65 degrees?

> >

> > A friend said they had gotten the bitter taste when clabbering on the

> > counter top, but that if the milk was left in the fridge it eventually

> > clabbered after a long long time and then tasted very good and sour. So

> > she thought that the temperature made a difference in what bacterial

> > culture predominated at very low temperature. This friend also doesn't

> > use much AC so their counter top temperature might have been higher

> > too. They didn't use the bitter material and used it as fertilizer.

> >

> > Another friend said they just added raw honey to it to eat it.

> >

> > The problem could be the prevalent ambient bacteria floating around in

> > the air where I live or the milk came from, since I had also opened the

> > milk.

> >

> > Another consideration is that it might be like the so called " acetone "

> > smell (or taste?) that some people get when they make kefir again on the

> > counter top. I have experienced that problem too once in a while but

> > don't fully remember the detail of what it was or how it tasted.

> >

> > Thanks for any help!

> > Grant

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

> > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

> >

> > Archive search: http://onibasu.com

> >

May 26, 2012

Actually, if anything, adding a freeze-dired lactic culture will slow down the spoilage in the fridge, because the lactic cultures produce anti-microbial compounds (such as hydrogen peroxide) that inhibit competitors. The souring will be very very slow though, because these cultures are not very active at refrigerator temperatures.

-Bill

If you add a culture to raw milk in the refrigerator, does

it " sour " any faster than if it sours on its own? Also, are

you talking about a powdered culture or any type of culture

(including yogurt or kefir grains). Are there special

cultures that you can buy that are specifically cold-loving?

>

> > Bitter Clabbered Milk?

> >

> > I'm having a problem with clabbered raw milk turning bitter not sour, as

> > soon as it clabbers. I very much like what plain yogurt, cultured

> > buttermilk, home make kefir, vinegar and real fermented sauerkraut taste

> > like. This is different, not at all pleasant, but not unbearable either

> > if one is accustomed to eating greens and medicinal herbs. On the other

> > hand, I have never tasted clabbered raw milk, so I might not know

> > exactly what to look for.

> >

> > Procedure:

> > The milk was about 3 weeks old (since milking) and still tasted sweet

> > and had been refrigerated the whole time. I left the milk in the plastic

> > bottle in which it came in on the counter top with the lid on it. I did

> > not hide the milk from the light. I did open it to use some of it, so

> > some air did get to it just before clabbering. It took several days

> > (3?) but it clabbered and also separated into solids and whey at

> > different levels in the bottle.

> >

> > I let the liquid drain out through a cotton cloth to separate the whey

> > and curts/cheese.

> >

> > The liquid portion tasted quite bitter and not very sour, it at all.

> >

> > The cheese portion tasted like cheese but also a little bitter, but I

> > think that came from the liquid that I was not able to squeeze out of

> > the cheese (still using the cloth).

> >

> > Questions:

> > + When clabbering milk, does one let air get into it by putting a cloth

> > on the top rather than having a tight lid?

> >

> > + Does properly clabbered milk separate, with one of the layers being

> > clear (translucent)?

> >

> > + Is this bitter substance in the whey bad for you? I think it gave me

> > indigestion of some sort. I think it also gave me a strange aftertaste

> > in my mouth (or nose, or lungs) for a day or more. The aftertaste was

> > similar in some way to the taste one getts when recovering from a

> > serious cold or flu.

> >

> > What are the names of the bacteria that are present in healthy raw milk

> > and at what temperatures do they prefer to grow and predominate the

> > culture?

> >

> > Possible Answers:

> > Maybe the whey was bitter because of the plant material that was eaten

> > by the cows. That is possible, but the milk tasted great and only after

> > clabbering was it bitter.

> >

> > Maybe the temperature in the house was too high, about 80 versus 70 or

> > 65 degrees?

> >

> > A friend said they had gotten the bitter taste when clabbering on the

> > counter top, but that if the milk was left in the fridge it eventually

> > clabbered after a long long time and then tasted very good and sour. So

> > she thought that the temperature made a difference in what bacterial

> > culture predominated at very low temperature. This friend also doesn't

> > use much AC so their counter top temperature might have been higher

> > too. They didn't use the bitter material and used it as fertilizer.

> >

> > Another friend said they just added raw honey to it to eat it.

> >

> > The problem could be the prevalent ambient bacteria floating around in

> > the air where I live or the milk came from, since I had also opened the

> > milk.

> >

> > Another consideration is that it might be like the so called " acetone "

> > smell (or taste?) that some people get when they make kefir again on the

> > counter top. I have experienced that problem too once in a while but

> > don't fully remember the detail of what it was or how it tasted.

> >

> > Thanks for any help!

> > Grant

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

> > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

> >

> > Archive search: http://onibasu.com

> >

May 28, 2012

Thanks. This sounds like a great solution to my problem

with raw milk starting to taste off after 3 to 5 days.

I've tried freezing it, but it doesn't seem quite the

same after being frozen.

Bill

>

>Actually, if anything, adding a freeze-dired lactic culture will slow down

>the spoilage in the fridge, because the lactic cultures produce

>anti-microbial compounds (such as hydrogen peroxide) that inhibit

>competitors. The souring will be very very slow though, because these

>cultures are not very active at refrigerator temperatures.

>

>-Bill

>

>> If you add a culture to raw milk in the refrigerator, does

>> it " sour " any faster than if it sours on its own? Also, are

>> you talking about a powdered culture or any type of culture

>> (including yogurt or kefir grains). Are there special

>> cultures that you can buy that are specifically cold-loving?

>>

>> >

>> > > Bitter Clabbered Milk?

>> > >

>> > > I'm having a problem with clabbered raw milk turning bitter not sour,

>> as

>> > > soon as it clabbers. I very much like what plain yogurt, cultured

>> > > buttermilk, home make kefir, vinegar and real fermented sauerkraut

>> taste

>> > > like. This is different, not at all pleasant, but not unbearable either

>> > > if one is accustomed to eating greens and medicinal herbs. On the

>> other

>> > > hand, I have never tasted clabbered raw milk, so I might not know

>> > > exactly what to look for.

>> > >

>> > > Procedure:

>> > > The milk was about 3 weeks old (since milking) and still tasted sweet

>> > > and had been refrigerated the whole time. I left the milk in the

>> plastic

>> > > bottle in which it came in on the counter top with the lid on it. I

>> did

>> > > not hide the milk from the light. I did open it to use some of it, so

>> > > some air did get to it just before clabbering. It took several days

>> > > (3?) but it clabbered and also separated into solids and whey at

>> > > different levels in the bottle.

>> > >

>> > > I let the liquid drain out through a cotton cloth to separate the whey

>> > > and curts/cheese.

>> > >

>> > > The liquid portion tasted quite bitter and not very sour, it at all.

>> > >

>> > > The cheese portion tasted like cheese but also a little bitter, but I

>> > > think that came from the liquid that I was not able to squeeze out of

>> > > the cheese (still using the cloth).

>> > >

>> > > Questions:

>> > > + When clabbering milk, does one let air get into it by putting a cloth

>> > > on the top rather than having a tight lid?

>> > >

>> > > + Does properly clabbered milk separate, with one of the layers being

>> > > clear (translucent)?

>> > >

>> > > + Is this bitter substance in the whey bad for you? I think it gave me

>> > > indigestion of some sort. I think it also gave me a strange aftertaste

>> > > in my mouth (or nose, or lungs) for a day or more. The aftertaste was

>> > > similar in some way to the taste one getts when recovering from a

>> > > serious cold or flu.

>> > >

>> > > What are the names of the bacteria that are present in healthy raw milk

>> > > and at what temperatures do they prefer to grow and predominate the

>> > > culture?

>> > >

>> > > Possible Answers:

>> > > Maybe the whey was bitter because of the plant material that was eaten

>> > > by the cows. That is possible, but the milk tasted great and only

>> after

>> > > clabbering was it bitter.

>> > >

>> > > Maybe the temperature in the house was too high, about 80 versus 70 or

>> > > 65 degrees?

>> > >

>> > > A friend said they had gotten the bitter taste when clabbering on the

>> > > counter top, but that if the milk was left in the fridge it eventually

>> > > clabbered after a long long time and then tasted very good and sour.

>> So

>> > > she thought that the temperature made a difference in what bacterial

>> > > culture predominated at very low temperature. This friend also doesn't

>> > > use much AC so their counter top temperature might have been higher

>> > > too. They didn't use the bitter material and used it as fertilizer.

>> > >

>> > > Another friend said they just added raw honey to it to eat it.

>> > >

>> > > The problem could be the prevalent ambient bacteria floating around in

>> > > the air where I live or the milk came from, since I had also opened the

>> > > milk.

>> > >

>> > > Another consideration is that it might be like the so called " acetone "

>> > > smell (or taste?) that some people get when they make kefir again on

>> the

>> > > counter top. I have experienced that problem too once in a while but

>> > > don't fully remember the detail of what it was or how it tasted.

>> > >

>> > > Thanks for any help!

>> > > Grant

>> > >

>> > > ------------------------------------

>> > >

>> > > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

>> > > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

>> > >

>> > > Archive search: http://onibasu.com

>> > >

May 28, 2012

It sounds like your milk source has some sanitation issues. Good quality raw milk should last for about 2 weeks in the fridge before it starts to develop noticeable off-tastes.Short shelf life is usually associated with a high P.I. count (preliminary incubation, which measures cold-loving bacteria). Make sure they are properly cleaning and sanitizing the milk collection system.

The other possibility is that your fridge is warm. Make sure it is under 40F.-Bill

Thanks. This sounds like a great solution to my problem

with raw milk starting to taste off after 3 to 5 days.

I've tried freezing it, but it doesn't seem quite the

same after being frozen.

Bill

>

>Actually, if anything, adding a freeze-dired lactic culture will slow down

>the spoilage in the fridge, because the lactic cultures produce

>anti-microbial compounds (such as hydrogen peroxide) that inhibit

>competitors. The souring will be very very slow though, because these

>cultures are not very active at refrigerator temperatures.

>

>-Bill

>

>> If you add a culture to raw milk in the refrigerator, does

>> it " sour " any faster than if it sours on its own? Also, are

>> you talking about a powdered culture or any type of culture

>> (including yogurt or kefir grains). Are there special

>> cultures that you can buy that are specifically cold-loving?

>>

>> >

>> > > Bitter Clabbered Milk?

>> > >

>> > > I'm having a problem with clabbered raw milk turning bitter not sour,

>> as

>> > > soon as it clabbers. I very much like what plain yogurt, cultured

>> > > buttermilk, home make kefir, vinegar and real fermented sauerkraut

>> taste

>> > > like. This is different, not at all pleasant, but not unbearable either

>> > > if one is accustomed to eating greens and medicinal herbs. On the

>> other

>> > > hand, I have never tasted clabbered raw milk, so I might not know

>> > > exactly what to look for.

>> > >

>> > > Procedure:

>> > > The milk was about 3 weeks old (since milking) and still tasted sweet

>> > > and had been refrigerated the whole time. I left the milk in the

>> plastic

>> > > bottle in which it came in on the counter top with the lid on it. I

>> did

>> > > not hide the milk from the light. I did open it to use some of it, so

>> > > some air did get to it just before clabbering. It took several days

>> > > (3?) but it clabbered and also separated into solids and whey at

>> > > different levels in the bottle.

>> > >

>> > > I let the liquid drain out through a cotton cloth to separate the whey

>> > > and curts/cheese.

>> > >

>> > > The liquid portion tasted quite bitter and not very sour, it at all.

>> > >

>> > > The cheese portion tasted like cheese but also a little bitter, but I

>> > > think that came from the liquid that I was not able to squeeze out of

>> > > the cheese (still using the cloth).

>> > >

>> > > Questions:

>> > > + When clabbering milk, does one let air get into it by putting a cloth

>> > > on the top rather than having a tight lid?

>> > >

>> > > + Does properly clabbered milk separate, with one of the layers being

>> > > clear (translucent)?

>> > >

>> > > + Is this bitter substance in the whey bad for you? I think it gave me

>> > > indigestion of some sort. I think it also gave me a strange aftertaste

>> > > in my mouth (or nose, or lungs) for a day or more. The aftertaste was

>> > > similar in some way to the taste one getts when recovering from a

>> > > serious cold or flu.

>> > >

>> > > What are the names of the bacteria that are present in healthy raw milk

>> > > and at what temperatures do they prefer to grow and predominate the

>> > > culture?

>> > >

>> > > Possible Answers:

>> > > Maybe the whey was bitter because of the plant material that was eaten

>> > > by the cows. That is possible, but the milk tasted great and only

>> after

>> > > clabbering was it bitter.

>> > >

>> > > Maybe the temperature in the house was too high, about 80 versus 70 or

>> > > 65 degrees?

>> > >

>> > > A friend said they had gotten the bitter taste when clabbering on the

>> > > counter top, but that if the milk was left in the fridge it eventually

>> > > clabbered after a long long time and then tasted very good and sour.

>> So

>> > > she thought that the temperature made a difference in what bacterial

>> > > culture predominated at very low temperature. This friend also doesn't

>> > > use much AC so their counter top temperature might have been higher

>> > > too. They didn't use the bitter material and used it as fertilizer.

>> > >

>> > > Another friend said they just added raw honey to it to eat it.

>> > >

>> > > The problem could be the prevalent ambient bacteria floating around in

>> > > the air where I live or the milk came from, since I had also opened the

>> > > milk.

>> > >

>> > > Another consideration is that it might be like the so called " acetone "

>> > > smell (or taste?) that some people get when they make kefir again on

>> the

>> > > counter top. I have experienced that problem too once in a while but

>> > > don't fully remember the detail of what it was or how it tasted.

>> > >

>> > > Thanks for any help!

>> > > Grant

>> > >

>> > > ------------------------------------

>> > >

>> > > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

>> > > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

>> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

>> > >

>> > > Archive search: http://onibasu.com

>> > >

May 28, 2012

Hi ,

One more thought about your milk souring after 3 to 5 days... Just to make sure

after I scrub my glass milk jugs, I put some bleach water in them as extra

insurance..and then rinse them really well... After they dry, I bag them in

plastic bags so they stay clean, and I leave the caps off the bottles.

That being said, my raw milk doesn't clabber as fast as yours, but when it does