Guest guest Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 - I work with dairy goats and believe that grain for any animal is not a normal feed option. Our goats produce a gallon plus per day in 2 milkings, on less than a pound of grain a day. We even switched recently to a no soy grain, simplified it by going to a 3 way (oats,corn,barley with molasses,) and add the sunflower seeds to it. The only reason they are given grain at all is an inticement to the stand (treat) and a nice way of getting other products into them like ACV, mineral supplements, the occassional herbal wormer . . . truly think a healthy perspective is to rely on good quality forage feeds and minimal grain. Sharron Dougan Dougan Farm Strasburg, CO Subject: Cows vs goatsTo: RawDairy Date: Friday, July 22, 2011, 2:46 PM Hi All if they both are ruminates then why is it okay for goats to eat grains but not cows? What is the difference between their digestion and bodies that makes it safer for a goat to have grains but not a cow?Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Greetings, As I understand it, goats don't have the four stomachs that both cows and sheep have. Bright Blessings, Garth & Kim www.TheRoseColoredForest.com Bedias, Texas > Hi All if they both are ruminates then why is it okay for goats to eat grains but not cows? What is the difference between their digestion and bodies that makes it safer for a goat to have grains but not a cow? > > Thanks, > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! > Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ > > Archive search: http://onibasu.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 We feed oats and barley and sunflower seeds too. but no corn and no soy.We only milk one time a day and they are in the pasture all day. JaneEvergreen Acres San - I work with dairy goats and believe that grain for any animal is not a normal feed option. Our goats produce a gallon plus per day in 2 milkings, on less than a pound of grain a day. We even switched recently to a no soy grain, simplified it by going to a 3 way (oats,corn,barley with molasses,) and add the sunflower seeds to it. The only reason they are given grain at all is an inticement to the stand (treat) and a nice way of getting other products into them like ACV, mineral supplements, the occassional herbal wormer . . . truly think a healthy perspective is to rely on good quality forage feeds and minimal grain. Sharron Dougan Dougan Farm Strasburg, CO Subject: Cows vs goatsTo: RawDairy Date: Friday, July 22, 2011, 2:46 PM Hi All if they both are ruminates then why is it okay for goats to eat grains but not cows? What is the difference between their digestion and bodies that makes it safer for a goat to have grains but not a cow? Thanks, -- Evergreen Acres Petting FarmFeel free to contact to us.heimei@...Google it! " Evergreen Acres Petting Farm " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Cows and sheep graze on grass, they will stand in one place and eat the grass around them, then take a step and eat until the grass is gone take another step etc. goats eat a nibble here then wander across the pasture and take a few more nibbles meanwhile burning lots of calories. They also are browsers, and brows is not typically as plentiful as grass, and does not re grow as quickly as grass, and so to maintain a goat typically takes much more land/lb. However over tie they can be trained/ selected to graze more. but until they get to that point they must have adequate nutrition, as lactating is more demanding then pregnancy. We have all three on our farm right now, and side by side it is very apparent how their grazing habits are so different. It is not just a simple thing, there are many variables and situations that have to be taken into consideration when you are feeding any animal. You can not have a one size or one feeding program that fits every farm. Too many people try to push their particular program on every farm, and the soils and environment are so variable from region to region, and from valley to valley sometimes that you cannot just make a cookie cutter stamp for every place. We are working toward no grain, but our farm has poor pasture, and no fences and we Have to get it up to better fertility, but that takes time, so we are feeding some grain, not a lot, until we can get things better. I hate to do it but the goats must have nutrition or they won't produce. We are also starting with a herd that has mostly been in a barn, so they have to learn to graze, or we have to cull those who will not learn to graze, but all that takes time and so that is why sometimes grain is appropriate...............life is not always so simple and it takes time to get to a place we want to be. matt And they do have four stomachs like any ruminate, horses don't Cows vs goatsTo: RawDairy Date: Friday, July 22, 2011, 2:46 PM Hi All if they both are ruminates then why is it okay for goats to eat grains but not cows? What is the difference between their digestion and bodies that makes it safer for a goat to have grains but not a cow?Thanks, -- Evergreen Acres Petting FarmFeel free to contact to us.heimei@...Google it! " Evergreen Acres Petting Farm" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Well said!We have a lot of mountain pasture high brush etc and can maintain no grain goats. Something I would not likely try on a flat land situation, nor would I recommend our way to most because I know it doesn't even work for those 30 km down the highway at the other end of the valley at a different elevation with very different soil characteristics. One size fits all never will work.Just like you see with people like Salatin. Many things work for him that would be dismal failures if duplicated in other areas. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.‎"When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."Kurtis Stavenwww.wildthingorganics.ca Cows and sheep graze on grass, they will stand in one place and eat the grass around them, then take a step and eat until the grass is gone take another step etc. goats eat a nibble here then wander across the pasture and take a few more nibbles meanwhile burning lots of calories. They also are browsers, and brows is not typically as plentiful as grass, and does not re grow as quickly as grass, and so to maintain a goat typically takes much more land/lb. However over tie they can be trained/ selected to graze more. but until they get to that point they must have adequate nutrition, as lactating is more demanding then pregnancy. We have all three on our farm right now, and side by side it is very apparent how their grazing habits are so different. It is not just a simple thing, there are many variables and situations that have to be taken into consideration when you are feeding any animal. You can not have a one size or one feeding program that fits every farm. Too many people try to push their particular program on every farm, and the soils and environment are so variable from region to region, and from valley to valley sometimes that you cannot just make a cookie cutter stamp for every place. We are working toward no grain, but our farm has poor pasture, and no fences and we Have to get it up to better fertility, but that takes time, so we are feeding some grain, not a lot, until we can get things better. I hate to do it but the goats must have nutrition or they won't produce. We are also starting with a herd that has mostly been in a barn, so they have to learn to graze, or we have to cull those who will not learn to graze, but all that takes time and so that is why sometimes grain is appropriate...............life is not always so simple and it takes time to get to a place we want to be. matt And they do have four stomachs like any ruminate, horses don't Cows vs goatsTo: RawDairy Date: Friday, July 22, 2011, 2:46 PM Hi All if they both are ruminates then why is it okay for goats to eat grains but not cows? What is the difference between their digestion and bodies that makes it safer for a goat to have grains but not a cow?Thanks, -- Evergreen Acres Petting FarmFeel free to contact to us.heimei@...Google it! " Evergreen Acres Petting Farm" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 How many stomachs does a goat have then? I just started feeding alfalfa in hopes of leaving behind grain. Although I cant figure out how to feed it on the stand. A friend of mine has a hopper that grinds the hay and he feeds it with the grains. I feed 3 cups twice daily of peas and barley and sunflowers sometimes as treat or for weight gain. I figure its a nice treat and a trade while they are on the stand. Gotta love alfalfa it has doubled my milk production and I want to plant it in the field next year. I want to find a company that has organic or heirloom seeds that would allow me to out together a variety pack of sorts. Now where to buy a Rothweiler greenergirl@... Simple Food http://www.localharvest.org/farms/M32512 http://www.facebook.com/pages/-Rothweiler/134155923311647 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 All the world over but here in the US goats are the make-do critter for meat, milk and hides. When they are kept in the traditional/ancient method, those place-specific breeds could produce for their babies and their shepherd family with what they found in free ranging, transhumance. Free range movement is the key, or at least having a large enough pasturage that the goats can be rotated to provide lots of new-growth browse and ground plants, perenial weeds and brambles and such. When dairy goats were brought to this country, from the looks of the original stock in old photos, they had bodies built for foraging, long, deep-sprung ribs for holding a bushel of green goodness or cut hay. But in America, we were improving on livestock raising by feeding corn and then soybeans and lots of them. And yes, we fed the world. As goat breeding followed cow husbandry in this country, we worked really hard to push production and over time have morphed our European hill-and-dale free-range goats into corn-fed girls. Many of our 21st century American goats, while being drop-dead gorgeous, would also just plain drop dead if they tried to make all the milk their genetics demand without concentrated feed to back it up. (Please, wonderful goat breeders, spare the flame! Yes, our modern goats have big bellies and great feet and legs and udders that don’t drag the ground with gigantic bologne teats. But if we take their grain away from them those considered the best (including my own best, btw) would just dry off if we’re lucky and die like flies if we’re not. This is a generalization, of course.) Over time, as we’ve (I mean us, as in here at my farm) learned to value what we used to consider hill-trash traits in our goats and now see as a set of adaptations that enable this wonderful species to thrive where other animals starve, we’re gradually selecting for animals that make milk on mostly forage/hay, just the way the grassfed beef and dairy cattle movement has done. I don’t know how long it will take, but that’s where we’re going. OK, off the soapbox..... OakMoon Farm & Creamerywww.oakmoonfarm.webs.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Goats. Cows and sheep are all ruminants with 4 stomachs (well not really but that is what we call it LOL) I feed sprouted organic barley on the milk stand with some organic sunflower seeds on top. They are expected to milk a gallon+ a day as 2 or 3 year olds and to hold their production for longer and take less then two minutes to milk out by hand....I could use alfalfa pellets or alfalfa but I feel fine with them having the sprouted barley. YMMV aliza > > > > Subject: Cows vs goats > To: RawDairy > Date: Friday, July 22, 2011, 2:46 PM > > > Â > > > > Hi All if they both are ruminates then why is it okay for goats to eat grains but not cows? What is the difference between their digestion and bodies that makes it safer for a goat to have grains but not a cow? > > Thanks, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 So ideally they should not eat grains either then? Would do it if i was living on real land - acreage, (which i am not i am backyard farming on a 1/4 acre lot). My backyard has no vegetation as the prvious owners never had anything living besides grass on this lot. I have converted the entire front yard into raised beds - edible landscaping is my goal. We have planted a variety of veggies, edible fruits vine/shrubs, edible flowers, etc. The backyard -i keep the goats and chickens and have not started working on the landscaping yet. Got the human landscape down first. My plan for the backyard is to plant things the goats can eat. Ex; black/rasp berry bushes on my side of their run/fencing so that leaves, etc. can grow over onto their side, they can nibble through the openings of field fence with out decimating the plants in one day. I want to grow stuff for them to eat. But am not sure of what is beneficial to them and hopefully faster growing to provide faster. Also what types of hay can they eat? I have only read of orchard and alfalfa. I see timothy and other hayes at the feed store but are not sure if they can have it. What about filed hay that is made into silage ? as one farmer called it. We bought hteir 2nd cutting orchard from them, first was made into " silage " - fermented. I am hoping in a couple more yrs we will finally have our property. Until then i am stuck urban farming and using my time trying to learn how to do it so when the time comes and we can get some land i have a good grasp on how to do things like care for the animals, gardening, etc. instead of starting from scratch with out any know how. Oh i also grow a lot of extra beets, lettuces, etc. for them to eat. I do get boxes of wasted produce from markets - not organic but it is free to feed to all the animals. Usually leafy green stuff, cilantro, parsley, fruits, carrots, bell peppers, cucumbers, etc. I know kale is on the list of not good for them but i don't recall any other common fruits or vegetables being on the list. Is kale so toxic that even a leaf or two mixed in with one of these buckets will harm them? I usually go through them really well and take them out but i am sure i miss a bit. So far they are still alive . I know my situation is not ideal. Please don't flame me for not having proper 'space' - as in acres they deserve. I am trying to do the best i can to provide a variety for them and be more self sufficient so we can get out of the food indsutry food chain . We have given each animal more than the minimum space required that the urban farm/homestead books recommend ....so it is not a lot when compared to acreage to roam but it is more than they say they claim we need in books. Also she is eating way better here - minus forage, than she was on the 100 acre farm i just got her from. And the area/space she was kept along with a few other goats and kids was not any bigger than what we have for her. Since i don't have any forage and i am going to have to feed concentrates can you tell me what would be the best for them nutritionally that i should focus on for their feed. I already feed; og corn, og whole oats with hulls, og whole barley, flax, BOSS, peas, and i don't feed soy at all. I was thinking about adding some wheat bran and shredded coconut ??. The feeder is full daily of orchard hay, feeding alfalfa pellets with feed at stanchion, free choice; loose minerals for goats, kelp meal, redmonds mineral conditioner for livestock,and baking soda. Ideas of stuff to plant for them, which hays are sutiable choices, and which concentrates i should buy and which are a waste would be good. Thanks > > Hi All if they both are ruminates then why is it okay for goats to eat grains but not cows? What is the difference between their digestion and bodies that makes it safer for a goat to have grains but not a cow? > > Thanks, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 > > I see nothing to flame here. Indeed, I admire what you are doing and look > forward to hearing more and more from you. > > JoyceM > I second that! Candy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Thanks Joyce . I think part of it is my semi guilty consience because i know they would be even happier with acreage to browse, rocks and stups to jump off and climb up and i can't provide them with that. But when i compare what they have here and us getting milk to the cost of farm milk i can feed them cheaper and get more milk for our family. Typically i buy raw from a farm have enoughfor the kids to drink. Still heve to buy store milk for yogurt and buy regular cheese. So even though i am buying real milk i am still buying factory farmed dairy and i hate that i support it in any fashion at all. So i felt this was a happy medium. We can't give them lots of land but we can give them love, a good diet and that is far better than what confined feed lots do . Some people in 'real life' have said it is stupid for us to try to live country in the city and that it is not far to the animals because they are cooped up. But to me it is the only alternative that can meet our needs and make sure the animals products we buy are clean, safe, and from loved properly cared for animals. Her gallon a day is giving us plenty for drinking, making yogurt, yogurt cheese. now i need a book for making other cheeses. Because so far this is all i know how to do. Thanks again for your encouragement! could. > > I see nothing to flame here. Indeed, I admire what you are doing and look > forward to hearing more and more from you. > > JoyceM > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 It is OK for cows, goats, sheep to eat grain. They will do it naturally in the pasture. Grass seed is a grain. The problem comes in when too much grain is given. That is not natural, nor health for the animals. Grain contains lots of energy - often needed during lactation or pregnancy. And it tastes good (assuming by how they eat it). I cow can die from overeating grain - like if they break into the feed room. Too much grain changes the Ph of their digestive system. The 100% grass fed movement is an over-reaction to the conventional beef/dairy industry. Our cows, sheep and goats all graze/browse, but we do offer a little (very little) grain as a reward for coming when called or as nutritional supplement (pregnancy/lactating) since we have poor pastures. You have to manage your animals for their best health and production. --Mike NW PA Hi All if they both are ruminates then why is it okay for goats to eat grains but not cows? What is the difference between their digestion and bodies that makes it safer for a goat to have grains but not a cow? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 I just thought that I would mention that goats have four stomachs, just like cows and sheep do. ~Naomi FournierEnderby, British Columbia, CanadaBirdsong Farm http://naomisbirdsongfarm.webs.com/Enderby WAPF Chapter http://enderbywap.webs.com/ Greetings,As I understand it, goats don't have the four stomachs that both cows and sheep have.Bright Blessings,Garth & Kim www.TheRoseColoredForest.comBedias, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 Thanks for your insight into the fact that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to feeding animals. I'm dealing with many of the issues you mentioned, and as a result feed grain to my cows and goats. I get a lot of flack over it, but for me it would be cruel to my animals to say, "Not eating grain is better for you, so I'm not going to feed you any grain and let you half starve." I admire people who can completely eliminate grain from their animals' rations, and am working toward the goal of no grain myself. ~Naomi FournierEnderby, British Columbia, CanadaBirdsong Farm http://naomisbirdsongfarm.webs.com/Enderby WAPF Chapter http://enderbywap.webs.com/ To: RawDairy Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 6:14:42 PMSubject: Re: Cows vs goats Cows and sheep graze on grass, they will stand in one place and eat the grass around them, then take a step and eat until the grass is gone take another step etc. goats eat a nibble here then wander across the pasture and take a few more nibbles meanwhile burning lots of calories. They also are browsers, and brows is not typically as plentiful as grass, and does not re grow as quickly as grass, and so to maintain a goat typically takes much more land/lb. However over tie they can be trained/ selected to graze more. but until they get to that point they must have adequate nutrition, as lactating is more demanding then pregnancy. We have all three on our farm right now, and side by side it is very apparent how their grazing habits are so different. It is not just a simple thing, there are many variables and situations that have to be taken into consideration when you are feeding any animal. You can not have a one size or one feeding program that fits every farm. Too many people try to push their particular program on every farm, and the soils and environment are so variable from region to region, and from valley to valley sometimes that you cannot just make a cookie cutter stamp for every place. We are working toward no grain, but our farm has poor pasture, and no fences and we Have to get it up to better fertility, but that takes time, so we are feeding some grain, not a lot, until we can get things better. I hate to do it but the goats must have nutrition or they won't produce. We are also starting with a herd that has mostly been in a barn, so they have to learn to graze, or we have to cull those who will not learn to graze, but all that takes time and so that is why sometimes grain is appropriate...............life is not always so simple and it takes time to get to a place we want to be. matt And they do have four stomachs like any ruminate, horses don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 LOL. We say the same thing - that they are much like having dogs. Except they provide us with food. I am so surprised by how much they love human attntion. From being at farms it appears cows could care less about us, no interest, i assumed it would that way for thgoats. SOmetimes they sit nearest our windows looking into the house bleating like they want us back out or them in - to be with us. Much like a dog whining and barking i tneh backyard wanting to be with it's owners. I am just really impressed by their love for and need of human companionship. > > I think its fine raising them that way. The bottom line is you are taking control of your food supply and that is very important today for your family And I'm sure what you lack in space you make up in attention and love. Goats are dog like anyway and with the bonus of food. !!! > > Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Wireless Network > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Those cows are doing what comes natural to them, eh Bill? OakMoon Farm & Creamerywww.oakmoonfarm.webs.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Curiously, my old breed milk type cows, crossed with more modern European breeds and left to fend on millet and crabgrass will eat a bunch of weeds AND browse from trees. Hi Bill, What breeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Red Holstein/Milking Shorthorn to start, crossed with Jersey, then Angus and Red Limousin.I like red cattle, they do better in the heat than black.Bill Curiously, my old breed milk type cows, crossed with more modern European breeds and left to fend on millet and crabgrass will eat a bunch of weeds AND browse from trees. Hi Bill, What breeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 It’s all about location and where you live and what is available to you at any given time. JRo From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Naomi FournierSent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 9:17 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: Cows vs goats Thanks for your insight into the fact that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to feeding animals. I'm dealing with many of the issues you mentioned, and as a result feed grain to my cows and goats. I get a lot of flack over it, but for me it would be cruel to my animals to say, " Not eating grain is better for you, so I'm not going to feed you any grain and let you half starve. " I admire people who can completely eliminate grain from their animals' rations, and am working toward the goal of no grain myself. ~Naomi FournierEnderby, British Columbia, CanadaBirdsong Farm http://naomisbirdsongfarm.webs.com/Enderby WAPF Chapter http://enderbywap.webs.com/From: shaul To: RawDairy Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 6:14:42 PMSubject: Re: Cows vs goats Cows and sheep graze on grass, they will stand in one place and eat the grass around them, then take a step and eat until the grass is gone take another step etc. goats eat a nibble here then wander across the pasture and take a few more nibbles meanwhile burning lots of calories. They also are browsers, and brows is not typically as plentiful as grass, and does not re grow as quickly as grass, and so to maintain a goat typically takes much more land/lb. However over tie they can be trained/ selected to graze more. but until they get to that point they must have adequate nutrition, as lactating is more demanding then pregnancy. We have all three on our farm right now, and side by side it is very apparent how their grazing habits are so different. It is not just a simple thing, there are many variables and situations that have to be taken into consideration when you are feeding any animal. You can not have a one size or one feeding program that fits every farm. Too many people try to push their particular program on every farm, and the soils and environment are so variable from region to region, and from valley to valley sometimes that you cannot just make a cookie cutter stamp for every place. We are working toward no grain, but our farm has poor pasture, and no fences and we Have to get it up to better fertility, but that takes time, so we are feeding some grain, not a lot, until we can get things better. I hate to do it but the goats must have nutrition or they won't produce. We are also starting with a herd that has mostly been in a barn, so they have to learn to graze, or we have to cull those who will not learn to graze, but all that takes time and so that is why sometimes grain is appropriate...............life is not always so simple and it takes time to get to a place we want to be. matt And they do have four stomachs like any ruminate, horses don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Â Red Holstein/Milking Shorthorn to start, crossed with Jersey, then Angus and Red Limousin. I like red cattle, they do better in the heat than black. Bill Thanks Bill! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Yes! We are working on a healthier color scheme here too! Brown, white or red. Belinda > >  > > > > > > > Curiously, > my old breed milk type cows, crossed with more > modern European breeds and left to fend on millet > and crabgrass will eat a bunch of weeds AND browse > from trees. > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > What breeds? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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