Re: deer/fat in wild animals/Gaelics

[Guest guest]

Mike,

If you dig up any more info on Gaelic diets, I'd like to know. I don't do

well with a high fat diet (and do best eating leaner meats like bison and

venison) so this is of interest to me.

Of course standard paleo theory is that humans don't need such a large

amount of fat but of course the diet is not low fatlike the low fat police would

like us to believe.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

>While such a scenario is very plausible in our

>modern socio-economic structures, it doesn't make sense at all for

>closed/self-contained systems (the ideal of local, community-based

>systems).

The current thought is that our paleo ancestors followed huge

herds of animals around, which were easy pickings (and

had more fat than deer). But you are right -- wild animals DON'T have

a huge amount of fat, so you have to work to get it! Like

eat marrow (which they did ... lot of smashed marrow bones

in the bone heaps). They also ate bugs, which are pretty

high in fat, and nuts.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>

> This relates to a question that I've had simmering in the back of

> my mind about the fat content of the traditional Gaelic diet. In

> NAPD Price emphatically characterizes the diet as oats, small sea

> animals, and small amounts of land and sea veggies, with oats being

> the overwhelming majority of the diet. He cites fish and shellfish

> as the primary sea animal foods, leaving us to wonder where people

> obtained adequate amounts of non-PUFA fats. He also mentions fish

> organs and fish eggs, but I would assume these would be a tiny

> percentage of the diet.

Didn't the ancient Celts use alot of dairy foods? I

know that the cow, and milk are prominent themes in

ancient pagan Celtic literature. Remember also that

the Celts didn't originate in the British Isles, but

migrated there from the continent within relatively

recent history. They originally lived far inland and

in their formative period would have lived on a very

different diet from that of the British Isles and of

the last few centuries. Though of course the Celts

of today have a fair amount of Scandinavian ancestry

as well.

[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> Didn't the ancient Celts use alot of dairy foods? I

> know that the cow, and milk are prominent themes in

> ancient pagan Celtic literature. Remember also that

> the Celts didn't originate in the British Isles, but

> migrated there from the continent within relatively

> recent history. They originally lived far inland and

> in their formative period would have lived on a very

> different diet from that of the British Isles and of

> the last few centuries. Though of course the Celts

> of today have a fair amount of Scandinavian ancestry

> as well.

>

>

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

I don't know anything about these cultures; obviously dairy is a big

part of various European cultures. I was referring specifically to

the Gaelic society Price described in NAPD. Dairy definitely didn't

figure into their diet, as Price describes the unsuitability of the

land for raising cows and their scarcity.

Mike

[Guest guest]

>. He also mentions fish organs and

>fish eggs, but I would assume these would be a tiny percentage of the

>diet. Could it be that their diet was very low-fat, but still very

>healthy because there were plenty of all needed nutrients, including

>fat-soluble and water-soluble vitamins, minerals, EFAs?

There are cultures who do well on low-fat diets,

which was part of the impetus for the " low fat " craze. Humans

synthesize fats quite well. Cod liver oil has vitamins, but

if you are eating fish livers for dinner you'll get those

vitamins too.

A lot of people on this list prefer low-carb diets, but that

never was Price's claim. He says (over and over) that white

(wheat) flour and sugar ruined various cultures. There is plenty

of science now to indicate that white wheat flour

has negative effects beyond the fact it has no nutrients,

and there is plenty of literature against suger. But there

are people (such as the Swiss) who do fine on other

grains with less meat. But the Swiss were also eating full-fat

milk and cheese, so I doubt their diet was really low fat.

Fish very often have a lot of fat, BTW, esp. the northern

fish. We used to catch these fish that I swear were half fat.

It doesn't take a LOT of fat to keep a person healthy. When

I analyze my diet (which doesn't include fat other than

for cooking and seasoning) I still end up with 40-50% fat

calories. But you wouldn't look at my meals and say,

" wow, she sure eats a lot of fat " .

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

I'm not sure about that. Keys observed some cultures which were low fat at

the time due to war privation, but before and after he observed them, they

were anything but.

>There are cultures who do well on low-fat diets,

>which was part of the impetus for the " low fat " craze.

-

[Guest guest]

> I'm not sure about that. Keys observed some cultures which were low fat at

>the time due to war privation, but before and after he observed them, they

>were anything but.

>

>-

I heard that about Italy (and I agree, about Italy).

I'm not sure about some other cultures. Like Mike was

pointing out, it's hard to say how much fat is really

EATEN in some diets, and all the observers are

biased. Also it depends what you mean by " healthy " --

Asians have less heart disease, but they are also

shorter, which may or may not be a good thing.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Asians are not the only shorter race of peoples. If you go high up in the

mountains of Peru etc.. you find short people there as well and they are still

eating a traditional diet

in every sense of the way. My husband has been doing research for his book

and has been going to all sorts of remote places (he's been concentrating on

South and central America for the past year) reasearching health/diets etc.. and

these people have beautiful teeth and healthy strong bodies (but are very

short.)

He's also analyzed the protein content of these people's diets and it pans

out to be about 35% total daily intake. I'll have to ask him more about the fat

ratios.

When you get into the cities of course the people have bad teeth, etc...

I'd love to post some pictures of these people.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/22/03 11:36:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, bwp@...

writes:

> I'd like to know if there are other nutritional

> contributions from small wild animals though, in parallel to the case

> of much sea animal food (e.g. oysters, shrimp) that supplies very

> little fat but is extremely valuable nutritionally.

Insects are small wild animals, and I believe they are the highest fat

" meats " of all. (about 75% fat).

> Price mentions the importance of whaling in the area, but doesn't

> specifically mention the role of whale foods in the Gaelic diet. For

> such an important food source, it's unfortunate he only offers two

> paltry sentences about it. If they were eating whale regularly, then

> obviously they'd be getting as much non-PUFA fat as they could

> possibly want, like the arctic cultures that have the good fortune of

> feasting on whales, walruses, etc. I'm not sure where to look to

> find more details of the Gaelic diet. Any suggestions?

They'd also be getting tons of mercury. I wonder how that fits in.

Chris

__________

Heidi wrote:

>But the Swiss were also eating full-fat

>milk and cheese, so I doubt their diet was really low fat.

Right, especially since milk is much higher in fat than meat, and is

considerably more saturated as well.

> I still end up with 40-50% fat

>calories. But you wouldn't look at my meals and say,

> " wow, she sure eats a lot of fat " .

I've cut back a lot on fat lately, so that's about what mine is. The article

a couple WAPF journals ago on macronutrient ratios pointed out that one

cannot possibly eat a " normal " meal, and use fat to taste, and get less than 40%

of

calories as fat.

Chris

______

[Guest guest]

> Though of course the Celts

> of today have a fair amount of Scandinavian ancestry

> as well.

Bloody Vikings.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/

[Guest guest]

Yeah I agree Heidi that there's more factors going on. I have 2 stepchildren

who suffer from grwoth retardation (in stature) due to their mother's

deficient vegan diet while in utero and throughout the nursing period (two

different

mothers). The first mother (of whom my husband had 2 children with) corrected

it by the second pregnancy and that daughter is much taller than her brother

(standing at 5feet6 versus 5feet) while the second marriage resulted in another

daughter (whose mother is quite tall) and she is 4 foot something.

So yes , in shirt diet and a lack of nutrients does contribute to short

stature in races that are meant to be genetically taller IMO. And another thing,

the mothers didn't eat wheat or wheat products while pregnant (mostly whole

brown rice, millet and some barley- strict macrobiotic diet) so it't not like

gluten had much to do with it (except in the rare use of barley) oats were off

limits to because they were thought of as too fatty.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

Wanita, I just downloaded a bunch of pics do my desktop. Now I just have to

put them up on my photo site. Or perhaps I could just paste it into these

emails. I'll try.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

[unable to display image]

[Guest guest]

Di that come through? The younger sister looks like her teeth aren't as good

but in fact has some growing in. Dh noted that there was plenty of room.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

That sounds quite Eurocentric to me.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

>Asians are not the only shorter race of peoples. If you go high up in the

>mountains of Peru etc.. you find short people there as well and they are still

>eating a traditional diet

>in every sense of the way.

I don't buy that " taller means better " myself. Our family has

a trace of Marfans, which is a connective tissue

disorder, and it makes people really tall. Statistically,

taller people don't live as long as shorter people do. So

SOME of the current tallness is likely due to connective

tissue problems, not good diet. Of course genes fit in

there too. And shortness can be the result of poor

diet or lack of absorption. But there isn't any one

easy answer.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/23/03 7:34:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jzbozzi@... writes:

> in addition i would also

> say there is a hard coding of attraction by females to taller males,

> likely because its a decent indicator of greater health and/or

> better genes.

That and also probably a protector thing. You can't expect someone to

protect you if their smaller than you! I wish I would grow a couple inches

taller,

but most girls are still shorter than me so I'm not doing that bad :-P

Chris

[Guest guest]

>He's also analyzed the protein content of these people's diets and it pans

>out to be about 35% total daily intake. I'll have to ask him more about

the fat

>ratios.

>

>When you get into the cities of course the people have bad teeth, etc...

>

>I'd love to post some pictures of these people.

Elainie,

Please do on both fat and photos. Have a few friends from these areas. 5

feet and under is the norm for women.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

What does everyone make of Page's conclusion about tall people and the

stimulation of the anterior pituitary from dairy foods (causing people to become

taller)? Makes sense to me as dairy eating cultures are typically taller and I'm

talking about before growth hormones etc.. were used.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

> I don't buy that " taller means better " myself. Our family has

> a trace of Marfans, which is a connective tissue

> disorder, and it makes people really tall. Statistically,

> taller people don't live as long as shorter people do. So

> SOME of the current tallness is likely due to connective

> tissue problems, not good diet. Of course genes fit in

> there too. And shortness can be the result of poor

> diet or lack of absorption. But there isn't any one

> easy answer.

>

> -- Heidi

i have read some studies have shown that the taller you are the

longer you live. conversly, some studies have shown the shorter you

are the greater your risk of dying from heart disease and are more

likely to suffer other health problems. these are all averages of

course and there would be many exceptions. in addition i would also

say there is a hard coding of attraction by females to taller males,

likely because its a decent indicator of greater health and/or

better genes.

-joe

[Guest guest]

>i have read some studies have shown that the taller you are the

>longer you live. conversly, some studies have shown the shorter you

>are the greater your risk of dying from heart disease and are more

>likely to suffer other health problems. these are all averages of

>course and there would be many exceptions. in addition i would also

>say there is a hard coding of attraction by females to taller males,

>likely because its a decent indicator of greater health and/or

>better genes.

>

>-joe

Right, like I said it isn't a simple thing.

If you are tall because of Marfan's,

chances are you will not live as long.

If you are short because of poor absorption,

or diet, you will not live as long.

Really tall people in our culture (like basketball

players and giants) tend to not live

really long lives and tend to have bad hearts ... likely

because the REASON they are that tall is not just " tall "

genes -- they often have hormonal imbalances or

connective tissue disorder.

There IS an attraction toward taller guys,

and not just from women. Taller people tend

to climb the corporate ladder faster too (as do

skinnier/more athletic and prettier people).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>What does everyone make of Page's conclusion about tall people and the

>stimulation of the anterior pituitary from dairy foods (causing people to

become

>taller)? Makes sense to me as dairy eating cultures are typically taller and

I'm

>talking about before growth hormones etc.. were used.

>

>Elainie

Do you have a reference for that? It would make sense. Many Asian people seem to

do just fine (nice and active into their 80's) but they are much shorter than

Europeans.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/24/03 10:38:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,

jzbozzi@... writes:

> I have heard anecdotally the about the natural hormones in dairy

> causing weight gain, but not height.

It makes perfect sense that the growth factors in dairy would contribute to

height gain, and makes much more sense than fat gain, if that's what you mean

by weight. Dairy is high in IGF-1, for example, which promotes human growth

hormone, which can cause height gains. HGH has been used to increase short

kids' height, though I don't think it's worked consistently. If by weight you

meant muscle, then I agree with that, and that would probably work more

consistently than height.

However, I recall Price writing that the cattle-herders in Africa were

shorter than the hunter-gatherers he studied, which contradicts the above logic.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Heidi, I don't have a reference because it was told to me by Bob and

Bruce Pacetti.

Elainie

[Guest guest]

Yes, bu twhat about the Masai?They're very tall. I wonder what else was on

the herder's diets. Grain? I'll have to go look in NAPD.

Elainie