Re: More Atkins

[Guest guest]

Wanita, I was just going to post that. But you beat me to it LOL!

Elainie

[Guest guest]

--- In , Wanita Sears <wanitawa@b...>

wrote:

> U.S. Breadmakers Hold Crisis talks over impact of Atkins Diet

>

> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=465405

>

> Wanita

---->oh that is RICH! LOL. quote:

" The Medical Research Council (MRC) in Britain has warned that the

basis of the Atkins diet is questionable and it could be dangerous.

Dr Jebb, head of nutrition at the MRC, said: " It is an unknown

risk. The diet is nutritionally incomplete. "

--------> " incomplete " ? what's missing? *bread*?! ROFL!

suze

[Guest guest]

At 07:23 PM 11/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Wanita, I was just going to post that. But you beat me to it LOL!

>

>Elainie

LOL! This part really got me

The average American eats 54lbs of bread a year, barely a third of the

quantity consumed by the French and Italians. But the Italians and the

French are not notably obese, Mr said.

Try they eat real fat, butter their bread or dip it into olive oil.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

yep over here its used with small amount of margarine and other crappy fats.

eheh

but hey. fat is fat right ?

i mean according to " science " its all in the molecule

_____

From: Wanita Sears [mailto:wanitawa@...]

Sent: Friday, 21 November 2003 11:50 AM

Subject: Re: More Atkins

At 07:23 PM 11/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Wanita, I was just going to post that. But you beat me to it LOL!

>

>Elainie

LOL! This part really got me

The average American eats 54lbs of bread a year, barely a third of the

quantity consumed by the French and Italians. But the Italians and the

French are not notably obese, Mr said.

Try they eat real fat, butter their bread or dip it into olive oil.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

--- In , Wanita Sears <wanitawa@b...>

wrote:

>

> The average American eats 54lbs of bread a year, barely a third of

> the quantity consumed by the French and Italians. But the Italians

> and the French are not notably obese, Mr said.

This tends to invalidate Heidi's theory that the Japanese

aren't as obese and prone to diabetes as Americans because

they don't eat wheat (which they in fact do).

[Guest guest]

> " The Medical Research Council (MRC) in Britain has warned that the

>basis of the Atkins diet is questionable and it could be dangerous.

>Dr Jebb, head of nutrition at the MRC, said: " It is an unknown

>risk. The diet is nutritionally incomplete. "

>

>--------> " incomplete " ? what's missing? *bread*?! ROFL!

>

>suze

It really depends how you DO the diet. Folks in *this* group might do

grassfed meat and greens -- which is pretty Paleo. But the folks I know

that do Atkins do " Lo carb brownies " and canola oil, with

no fruit or vegies (or fermented anything) to speak of, and

live off, say, pepperoni and bacon. True, the latest book says

not to do that, but they do! And it is a rotten diet, eating

grain-fed-beef pepperoni all day, with wheat low-carb tortillas

and grain-fed cheddar cheese on top. After a few weeks, they

get cravings and start gorging on pizza. They gain about 15

lbs overnight. Then they go back on Atkins.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> The average American eats 54lbs of bread a year, barely a third of

>> the quantity consumed by the French and Italians. But the Italians

>> and the French are not notably obese, Mr said.

>

>This tends to invalidate Heidi's theory that the Japanese

>aren't as obese and prone to diabetes as Americans because

>they don't eat wheat (which they in fact do).

The Japanese don't eat NEAR the amount of wheat

we do, and in any event, it takes about 20 years

for the effects to show up (which Price found also).

Part of it may be weaning age (when kids are fed

wheat at an early age it causes more problems). Back

in 1900 we ate roughly twice the amount of wheat we

do now, and and far more health issues.

Personally I think the reason the Italians and French

get by are:

1. They have better genes (they've been eating wheat

a long time).

2. They eat it with saturated fat, olive oil, and wine

(all of which help me!).

3. They eat one main meal a day (which is really, really

rich and nice, generally speaking).

Possibly they don't start cereal feeding as early

for babies either. The major " epidemics " of wheat

intolerance tend to happen when kids are fed cereals

very early in life, before the gut is formed well.

Americans used to eat about 200/lbs wheat a year. Now it

is something like 100, but it has increased over the last 20

years and with the increase has come increased obesity and

other issues. That is not true for the French, which is very

interesting ... but their genetics and eating habits are very

very different!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

so basically the italians are first and foremost kind aliving WD style of

eating

( with teh 1 big meal )

_____

From: Heidi Schuppenhauer [mailto:heidis@...]

Sent: Friday, 21 November 2003 4:36 PM

Subject: Re: Re: More Atkins

>> The average American eats 54lbs of bread a year, barely a third of

>> the quantity consumed by the French and Italians. But the Italians

>> and the French are not notably obese, Mr said.

>

>This tends to invalidate Heidi's theory that the Japanese

>aren't as obese and prone to diabetes as Americans because

>they don't eat wheat (which they in fact do).

The Japanese don't eat NEAR the amount of wheat

we do, and in any event, it takes about 20 years

for the effects to show up (which Price found also).

Part of it may be weaning age (when kids are fed

wheat at an early age it causes more problems). Back

in 1900 we ate roughly twice the amount of wheat we

do now, and and far more health issues.

Personally I think the reason the Italians and French

get by are:

1. They have better genes (they've been eating wheat

a long time).

2. They eat it with saturated fat, olive oil, and wine

(all of which help me!).

3. They eat one main meal a day (which is really, really

rich and nice, generally speaking).

Possibly they don't start cereal feeding as early

for babies either. The major " epidemics " of wheat

intolerance tend to happen when kids are fed cereals

very early in life, before the gut is formed well.

Americans used to eat about 200/lbs wheat a year. Now it

is something like 100, but it has increased over the last 20

years and with the increase has come increased obesity and

other issues. That is not true for the French, which is very

interesting ... but their genetics and eating habits are very

very different!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

> Americans used to eat about 200/lbs wheat a year. Now it

> is something like 100, but it has increased over the last 20

> years and with the increase has come increased obesity and

> other issues.

I'm not standing up on behalf of wheat, but I think the above is

oversimplifying. One needs to look at everything else that has changed in

the past 20 years. For example, are Americans eating more sugar? Drinking

more coffee and more cola? Eating more HO? And on and on and on.

Rhea

[Guest guest]

not to mention how bread is now made in america.

all sorts of addicteves ect ect to make it fluffy, rise fast as so they can

make more bread ect ect.

it has nothing about preserving the nature of the wheat.

+ yes cola, sugar adn all the other littel nasties all add up

_____

From: Rhea Richmond [mailto:honeysuckles@...]

Sent: Friday, 21 November 2003 6:14 PM

Subject: Re: Re: More Atkins

> Americans used to eat about 200/lbs wheat a year. Now it

> is something like 100, but it has increased over the last 20

> years and with the increase has come increased obesity and

> other issues.

I'm not standing up on behalf of wheat, but I think the above is

oversimplifying. One needs to look at everything else that has changed in

the past 20 years. For example, are Americans eating more sugar? Drinking

more coffee and more cola? Eating more HO? And on and on and on.

Rhea

[Guest guest]

At 11:13 PM 11/20/2003 -0900, you wrote:

>> Americans used to eat about 200/lbs wheat a year. Now it

>> is something like 100, but it has increased over the last 20

>> years and with the increase has come increased obesity and

>> other issues.

>

>I'm not standing up on behalf of wheat, but I think the above is

>oversimplifying. One needs to look at everything else that has changed in

>the past 20 years. For example, are Americans eating more sugar? Drinking

>more coffee and more cola? Eating more HO? And on and on and on.

>

>Rhea

U.S. sugar consumption is highest over all European countries. Found info

at a WHO site within last year when it was asked. Should be in archives.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

I think all the books have talked to some degree about food quality. Never

enough (I don't think he ever prosyletized grass-fed) but he definitely

pushed organic beef and the importance of vegetables. Someone living on

pepperoni and canola oil and low-carb " brownies " can't be properly said to

be on the Atkins diet at all, though the high-carb press will certainly

pretend otherwise.

>True, the latest book says

>not to do that, but they do!

-

[Guest guest]

>so basically the italians are first and foremost kind aliving WD style of

>eating

>( with teh 1 big meal )

Spanish too, at least that was my experience over there.

Likely the French also.

-- Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

>> Americans used to eat about 200/lbs wheat a year. Now it

>> is something like 100, but it has increased over the last 20

>> years and with the increase has come increased obesity and

>> other issues.

>

>I'm not standing up on behalf of wheat, but I think the above is

>oversimplifying. One needs to look at everything else that has changed in

>the past 20 years. For example, are Americans eating more sugar? Drinking

>more coffee and more cola? Eating more HO? And on and on and on.

>

>Rhea

Sure, any one factor is oversimplifying.

But when you look at the disease patterns

and the proven side effects of gluten

intolerance, there is an incredibly good match

with the diseases that are on the rise lately.

Not everyone has gluten intolerance, but

the folks that do die at TWICE the rate of

the rest of the populace, and mostly get these

modern degenerative diseases that Price

associated with " white flour and sugar " .

Also people who have this problem tend

to be " sugar holics " by their own admission,

so the two are very connected. But stopping

sugar doesn't solve the problem, stopping

wheat does.

The book " Dangerous Grains " gives a lot

of the research to back up that claim -- they

feel that " gluten " will end up being considered

THE health scourge of the 20th century. Having

read some of the research, I have to agree. I

admit it sounds off the wall though, and I

thought it was crazy when I first heard it.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

I think all the books have talked to some degree about food quality. Never

>enough (I don't think he ever prosyletized grass-fed) but he definitely

>pushed organic beef and the importance of vegetables. Someone living on

>pepperoni and canola oil and low-carb " brownies " can't be properly said to

>be on the Atkins diet at all, though the high-carb press will certainly

>pretend otherwise.

>-

The press will say that, but more important, the

people on the diet believe that also. The thing

they come away with is " carbs are evil " -- not

because the book says that but because humans

like to simplify things. Since carbs are evil,

everything else is ok, and all those low-carb

products proliferating on the shelves encourage

that belief.

Add that to the concept of " low fat low carb "

(because people don't want to eat fat) and

eating smaller meals (a lot of folks do try

to cut down the amount of food also). Particularly

worrying is people cutting down on salt

and not getting enough potassium (mentioned

in the article). It's decidedly a mix of health

messages! I'm also not sure a lot of the people

on the diet ever READ the book.

I'm not trying to put down the diet -- folks like

you folks who actually eat " like the Inuit " and

enjoy it do ok. But the popular version

of " doing Atkins " has morphed into something

that isn't very healthy, which is likely to generate

health problems -- and therefore articles like

the one quoted.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> But the Italians and the

French are not notably obese, Mr said. <<

I don't know about the French, but I lived in Italy for two years and LOTS of

older women and men are definitely overweight, with some very obese women and

VERY paunchy men.

I lived in both the north and the south, and my observations are that people eat

very little sugar, LOTS of coffee, LOTS of wine, and one large meal a day

(lunch, not dinner). Breakfast is generally coffee, usually with milk or cream,

and some kind of roll or pastry. Lunches are literally enormous, taking a long

time to eat and requiring a post-prandial nap. All businesses, even in Milan

where I lived the longest, close for several hours midday to accomodate this

lifestyle.

Dinner is usually very light, but still eaten lingeringly, and accompanied by

wine and finished with espresso. Even at 11 PM, an Italian can knock back an

espresso and sleep like a baby. Must be all the wine. <G>

People shop every day, very little food is kept in the home, but even then

supermarkets were increasing in popularity, so by now that may have changed for

the worse.

Depending on where you are in the country, vast amounts of seafood are eaten.

And lots and lots of fat, both animal fat and olive oil.

Desserts are quite rare. I would say that most of the Italians I knew ate

something sweet at breakfast and never again during the day. Desserts are more

for holidays than everyday.

Christie

[Guest guest]

>> After a few weeks, they

get cravings and start gorging on pizza. They gain about 15

lbs overnight. Then they go back on Atkins. <<

They go back on their DELUSION of what Atkins is. He does make it clear in his

book... and it's a bit misleading to call it his " latest version, " even though

it's technically accurate, as this edition is the book most of the current folks

exposed to Atkins have, and it's been out now for almost two years. I never saw

the previous version so I don't know what he said about veggies and " real foods "

in that, but since no LC convenience foods existed then, I can't believe he

mentioned them favorably or otherwise! In Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution he

very plainly tells folks to shop only on the " edges " or the markets, to avoid

processed or convenience foods as much as possible, to eat veggies (he devotes a

huge portion of the book to discussing vegetables and their importance), and to

eat real, fresh, whole foods as the basis of their diet.

If people choose to eat pepperoni and Velveeta and call it Atkins, it does

create a negative public impression of what Atkins is, but it doesn't change

what the program really calls for.

Now, I don't agree with even Dr. Atkins' lukewarm endorsement of LC treats, nor

his somewhat warmer feelings for sugar alcohols, or his acceptance of sucralose,

BUT.... the truth is, the Atkins plan is utterly compatible with an NT way of

eating, and those who follow it in a fresh whole foods way are the ones with the

most success.

I'm glad it's getting a lot of attention because I think it can help a lot of

people, but popularity is a curse and we're seeing the results of that now - a

very mixed bag at this point.

Christie

[Guest guest]

--- Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote: > ---

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=465405

> " The Medical Research Council (MRC) in Britain has

> warned that the

> basis of the Atkins diet is questionable and it

> could be dangerous.

> Dr Jebb, head of nutrition at the MRC, said:

> " It is an unknown

> risk. The diet is nutritionally incomplete. "

>

> --------> " incomplete " ? what's missing? *bread*?!

> ROFL!

>

Suze

Jebb has received a payment of £10,000

(~$15,000) from the Flour Advisory Bureau " reviewing

scientific literature investigating diets that are

high in carbohydrates such as bread, pasta and rice " .

So she is hardly impartial. She is becoming the

laughing stock of the low-carb community in the UK!

Mind you, this is the country whose Gvt has openly

condemned low carb diets because cutting out a " whole

food group " is dangerous (even though we don't cut out

a whole food group) and yet vegetarianism is fine

because vegetarians (and I paraphrase the Food

Standards Authority) get protein from other sources

such as nuts, legumes etc.

Jo

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[Guest guest]

--- Wanita Sears <wanitawa@...> wrote: >

> The average American eats 54lbs of bread a year,

> barely a third of the

> quantity consumed by the French and Italians. But

> the Italians and the

> French are not notably obese, Mr said.

>

> Try they eat real fat, butter their bread or dip it

> into olive oil.

>

They also don't eat the highly refined cotton-wool

type bread that most Americans and English people eat.

They take great care over their bread, using good

quality whole grains, and they soak their grains in a

lot of cases prior to baking.

I'd also query where this consumption figure comes

from. The French don't eat as much bread as we would

imagine. Typically a baguette would do for a family

of 4 each day.

Jo

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[Guest guest]

Heidi

I think that you are generalising somewhat. I have

spent a lot of time getting to know people on low carb

groups in the US and UK. If this is how they follow

the diet, they invariably fail, and this is not the

way Atkins promotes the diet. MOST people actually

try to eat whole foods as much as possible (although

most don't know about grain/pasture fed beef), they

eat LOADS of vegetables (it's the mantra on most lists

" Eat More Veggies " ) and they generally succeed in

their diets. They also post vociferously about how

harmful trans fats are and that saturated fats are a

must for cooking with.

Some people do fall off the wagon - I'm sure there

aren't many people following NT who don't ever eat

anything non-organic, non-pastured, non-fermented

etc. We're only human, and at family gathering, Aunty

Bertha's traditional apple pie is sometimes just

irrestistable :-)

Low carbers buy their meat, cheese and veg from the

supermarket, and quite frankly, this is a MAJOR

improvement on the junk they used to eat from the

centre aisles of the supermarket. Just this alone

leads to a massive improvement in their health and

makes them determined to make it a way of life. Those

that do don't look back.

Many many people do low carb on a strict budget.

Ground beef, chicken wings, tuna and eggs are their

staples. If this is all they can afford, then they

can't very well start paying double just for organic.

I have been following Atkins for 4 years. I can tell

you in the UK we just don't have the low carb junk

food available. Some people decide to ship it in from

the US, but it's so much cheaper just to eat normal

food. I certainly don't eat pepperoni all day, I have

never eaten a low carn tortilla, and certainly have no

desire to gorge on pizza. I am not unusual in this.

Many people have never heard of Nourishing traditions

or the WAP foundation. Is it fair to judge them

because of that? There appears to be a huge community

on the web, but the UK list - ntuk - has about 2 posts

per day, compared to this one with a couple of

hundred. It's just not widespread in this country.

And half the ingredients aren't available in the UK -

the only sweetener I can find that NT allows is

Stevia, and I have to pay through the nose to ship it

from the US/Canada. I have also paid £30/kg for

pastured beef and just refuse to pay £11 per kg for

free range chicken. I don't think it's unreasonable

for the average person to choose to shop in

supermarkets so they can afford to keep a roof over

their heads rather than eat the perfect food.

That said, since I started NT seriously a few weeks

ago, I decided I would try to convert some people on

my low carb list! ;-) I still consider myself to be

on Atkins, but now follow it within the confines of NT

principles.

Not sure it's doing me any good yet though.

Jo

--- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

wrote: >

> It really depends how you DO the diet. Folks in

> *this* group might do

> grassfed meat and greens -- which is pretty Paleo.

> But the folks I know

> that do Atkins do " Lo carb brownies " and canola oil,

> with

> no fruit or vegies (or fermented anything) to speak

> of, and

> live off, say, pepperoni and bacon. True, the latest

> book says

> not to do that, but they do! And it is a rotten

> diet, eating

> grain-fed-beef pepperoni all day, with wheat

> low-carb tortillas

> and grain-fed cheddar cheese on top. After a few

> weeks, they

> get cravings and start gorging on pizza. They gain

> about 15

> lbs overnight. Then they go back on Atkins.

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[Guest guest]

> They also don't eat the highly refined cotton-wool

> type bread that most Americans and English people eat.

Well, actually, they do. But there is a big movement there toward

" real " bread, and many of their loaves are a natural ferment.

Lynn S.

-----

Lynn Siprelle * Writer, Mother, Programmer, Fiber Artisan

The New Homemaker: http://www.newhomemaker.com/

Siprelle & Associates: http://www.siprelle.com/

People-Powered ! http://www.deanforamerica.com/

[Guest guest]

>Many people have never heard of Nourishing traditions

>or the WAP foundation. Is it fair to judge them

>because of that? There appears to be a huge community

>on the web, but the UK list - ntuk - has about 2 posts

>per day, compared to this one with a couple of

>hundred. It's just not widespread in this country.

No, it's not fair for me to judge them, and yes, I'm

generalizing. The main reason I said anything had to

do with the post about a girl dying from heart

arrhythmia after doing Atkins. I know those folks

are doing their best, and they are swamped with

bad information and likely on a budget, and most

don't have a lot of biology background either. I'm

generalizing based on the folks I'm in contact

with -- who aren't in any groups. I suspect the folks

in groups are far better educated!

This particular group of folks tends to be self-selected

for folks that read a lot and actually study nutrition.

But I really feel for the average gal or guy who is

80 lbs overweight and has tried the " recommended "

diets and nothing works. Times had a really sad

article about teenagers getting their stomachs

stapled because they felt nothing else would work.

The French folks have an obesity rate of 7%, ours is over 50%.

I don't think the French are any more disciplined or

well-read or rich -- but whatever their food habits are,

they work better, without anyone having to read

a mess of books and have a special food budget.

The only thing that will really work for the average

person is a " food culture " that WORKS and is EASY

and you can follow it forever without a lot of special

products or a lot of self-discipline.

Atkins COULD be the start of a new food culture,

though I'd guess for it to be a HEALTHY long-term food

culture it will end up being a cross between

NT, Paleo, the Zone, and the current " low carb "

culture -- having good vegies, fermented products,

organ meats, watching the food sources, low

in processed foods. And maybe using more of

the feast/fast idea (eating one big meal a day,

not constant snacking) and add some wine.

Actually I think the diets are all converging

on one " ideal " -- kind of like all the mid-size cars

are beginning to look alike. So more of the Atkins

folks will do some NT stuff, and some NT folks

will do some Atkins stuff ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>I'd also query where this consumption figure comes

>from. The French don't eat as much bread as we would

>imagine. Typically a baguette would do for a family

>of 4 each day.

>

>Jo

Try:

http://www.fao.org/WAICENT/FAOINFO/AGRICULT/AGP/AGPC/doc/field/Wheat/europe/fran\

ce.htm

They eat roughly the same amount per year as we did in the US in 1900 (which is

far more than today). According to this anyway.

However, there is some evidence their genes are different:

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030624/msgs/238371.html

W.J.Lutz (4) has offered an alternative perspective on the " French Paradox. "

(The " French Paradox " is the unusually low rate of death by myocardial

infarction among the French despite quite high per-capita rates of fat

consumption.) Dr. Lutz has studied the spread of agriculture through

Europe. He presents a picture whereby the spread of agriculture, and thus

the period of time a culture has been exposed to cereal grains, is

inversely related to the incidence of cardiovascular disease. The

underlying assumption, of course, is that the longer the exposure, the

greater the likelihood that those who were intolerant to these grains were

trimmed from the gene pool of such cultures; it seems that the less time a

culture has been exposed to gluten, the greater the portion of the

population that continues to develop cancers and cardiovascular disease.

(Lutz also provides similarly compelling data on the rates of breast cancer

mortality.)

This work is confirmed by Simmoon's observation that there is a negative

correlation between the frequency of antigen HLA-B8 and the length of time

wheat farming has been practised in various parts of Europe (19).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>> I'm also not sure a lot of the people

on the diet ever READ the book. <<

Oh, you can be sure! They haven't.

I find it very upsetting, because I think Atkins really understood a LOT about a

certain type of metabolic problem, and god knows this eating plan has completely

changed my life. I might even say SAVED it. So I hate seeing it bastardized and

altered out of recognition. But I have no clue what anyone can do to stem the

tide.

Christie

[Guest guest]

>> And maybe using more of

the feast/fast idea (eating one big meal a day,

not constant snacking) and add some wine. <<

Although I don't drink myself, Atkins does allow wine. Just FYI.

And I still don't want to even think about the one big meal a day - I love my

breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

Christie