Re: Organic versus conventional

[Guest guest]

No. Am very cautious about raw dairy produced under these circumstances. I would simply forego dairy products until I found the right source or my own dairy animal.

In Service to The King,Tom GermanHolstein, IowaCertified Organic Grass Farmwww.ThankfulHarvest.comHome of Thankful Harvest's®Tenderheart® Beef, Pastured Chicken, Pastured Turkey, Grassfed Lamb, Farmstead Eggs, ...

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

[Guest guest]

please change my email address

balsambarlow@...

thanks

betty b. barlow

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[Guest guest]

There is a Jersey dairy 20 minutes from me . . .. 180-200 days on pasture, the rest on silage.

However, I believe all days they get 'concentrate'. We are looking into what that is. <G>

From what I understand . . . very few dairies are 100% grass/hay. Several of the cow shares in this state give some grain every day.

What do you find is an acceptable mix?

I always thought silage was corn stalks ~ the green part. But, now I understand the kernels are chopped right in.

Is fermented corn . . . less bad?

Several of the dairymen are talking about buffers/additives . . . that in their words, make it ok to feed corn without burning out the cow brains . . . that does not really sound like a good solution.

This eating good stuff is a lot of work. <GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG>

Thanks!

Ellen Schwab

43748

[Guest guest]

If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ?

NEVER

[Guest guest]

we do raw conventional. but then we raise our girls as close to natural as possible. Organic is cost prohibitive for us and we don't have a local processor. Plus i don't think people here would pay organic prices.

if you know your farmer and i say conventional is better than pasteurized.

Re: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ?

NEVER

[Guest guest]

What are your values? If you avoid GMOs, then I wouldn't take conventional

because 80%+ conventional corn is GMO. I certainly wouldn't accept distillery

waste, which is the reason that pasteurization was first instituted in the early

20th century (cows were mostly fed distillery waste, which created a diseased

dirty milk that killed thousands of infants).

Mostly grass-fed is also vague. Does " mostly " mean 51%? That's not very

reassuring. Corn and grains create a highly acidic environment in the cow

stomachs, fostering a perfect breeding ground for e-coli, thereby necessitating

pasteurization. If mostly means 99%, I wouldn't be such a stickler about that

other 1%.

Kind regards,

>

> If organic was not available . .

>

> would you take raw conventional ?

>

> Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which

> is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

>

> Thanks,

> Ellen

>

[Guest guest]

As a buyer/consumer, where do I find 100% grass fed dairy cows?

We do raise our own 100% grass fed beef, and I mught have to start milking . . . but . . . c'mon, I'm lazy and I want to buy some of my food. <G>

Ellen

43748

A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks,Ellen

[Guest guest]

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed. If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group. Jan I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks,Ellen

[Guest guest]

I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:15 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed. If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group. Jan I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks,Ellen

[Guest guest]

I wish we could go 100% grass fed, and while we can achieve that in the spring when the grasses and clovers are lush and plentiful, in the heat of summer when the grass is dried and the clover nonexistent, our cows were loosing way too much weight to keep them on grass alone. With over 60 days without rain in late summer, we were prepared for the drop in production because of the heat but trying to regulate their weight with the grass drying out and dying, proved to be too difficult for us, even using rotational grazing.

Jan Hayberthaybert@...

I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:15 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it

will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed. If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group. Jan I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo:

RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks,Ellen

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't accept corn as cow feed, no. Particularly not GMO-corn.

To: RawDairy Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 4:35:06 PMSubject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

[Guest guest]

What most folks don’t understand is that it’s all about genetics.Genetics (specific genetics for the management style you want) take years to develop.There are too many folks who are not investing the time, money, energy and research that it takes to develop the genetics for what they want to do. Here’s just one example… TRUE Story! A couple want a totally grass-based dairy.They buy 30 head of stock from high % dairy genetics that are raised on free choice high quality organic alfalfa, and a mixture of cracked corn and a few other locally grown ingredients.They buy 30 head of hardy, all meat, grass fed only, low input stock.Their goal… a cross of the two.BUT… this is where is falls apart…They do not manage these two groups differently the first year.They turn all the young stock out on pasture never before grazed.The hardy, all meat stock youngster continue to grow and do fine.The high % dairy youngster do not grow well and many die from anemia (combination of poor nutrition and parasite over load). It takes years and lots of severe culling to develop just the genetics to accomplish what you want.Even after years, it’s a moving target and you continually have to readjust to keep the input and output what you want. There are some local farms that “claim” organic – are they truly certified? If they are, are they honest?I know some who are… I know some who are not.There are some local farms that are “all natural”… some I would avoid, but a few (whose management practices I am very familiar with) I would eat from before some of the “organic” farms I am familiar with.It’s all a matter of knowing your farmer and knowing what questions to ask. Sheri Palko, Locust Grove Farm

[Guest guest]

I have been reading this and my 2 cents. Just because you feed a concentrate you are feeding corn. I feed a concentrate and do not feed corn or soy. I just changed the oil portion to coconut oil as well.

Now at least I know what is in what I feed. For us organic is not do able because of cost and availability. You need to ask the right questions and make the choices for yourself. All the hay we feed is grass and they are on pasture when we have grass. Considering cost and cow health I am happy with what I get.

Chris

I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

Then you probably have more cows that your land is able to hold. From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 4:59 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional I wish we could go 100% grass fed, and while we can achieve that in the spring when the grasses and clovers are lush and plentiful, in the heat of summer when the grass is dried and the clover nonexistent, our cows were loosing way too much weight to keep them on grass alone. With over 60 days without rain in late summer, we were prepared for the drop in production because of the heat but trying to regulate their weight with the grass drying out and dying, proved to be too difficult for us, even using rotational grazing. Jan Hayberthaybert@... I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:15 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed. If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group. Jan I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks,Ellen

[Guest guest]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nIcfh2UqV8 From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 4:59 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional I wish we could go 100% grass fed, and while we can achieve that in the spring when the grasses and clovers are lush and plentiful, in the heat of summer when the grass is dried and the clover nonexistent, our cows were loosing way too much weight to keep them on grass alone. With over 60 days without rain in late summer, we were prepared for the drop in production because of the heat but trying to regulate their weight with the grass drying out and dying, proved to be too difficult for us, even using rotational grazing. Jan Hayberthaybert@... I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:15 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed. If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group. Jan I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks,Ellen

[Guest guest]

Its easy to go back to heritage breeds than reinvent the cow From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of SheriSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 7:08 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: RE: Organic versus conventional What most folks don’t understand is that it’s all about genetics.Genetics (specific genetics for the management style you want) take years to develop.There are too many folks who are not investing the time, money, energy and research that it takes to develop the genetics for what they want to do. Here’s just one example… TRUE Story! A couple want a totally grass-based dairy.They buy 30 head of stock from high % dairy genetics that are raised on free choice high quality organic alfalfa, and a mixture of cracked corn and a few other locally grown ingredients.They buy 30 head of hardy, all meat, grass fed only, low input stock.Their goal… a cross of the two.BUT… this is where is falls apart…They do not manage these two groups differently the first year.They turn all the young stock out on pasture never before grazed.The hardy, all meat stock youngster continue to grow and do fine.The high % dairy youngster do not grow well and many die from anemia (combination of poor nutrition and parasite over load). It takes years and lots of severe culling to develop just the genetics to accomplish what you want.Even after years, it’s a moving target and you continually have to readjust to keep the input and output what you want. There are some local farms that “claim” organic – are they truly certified? If they are, are they honest?I know some who are… I know some who are not.There are some local farms that are “all natural”… some I would avoid, but a few (whose management practices I am very familiar with) I would eat from before some of the “organic” farms I am familiar with.It’s all a matter of knowing your farmer and knowing what questions to ask. Sheri Palko, Locust Grove Farm

[Guest guest]

What do you define as concentrate… not sure cows ate coconut oils.. I like them.. they are beneficial in so many ways .. but the market that is into grassfed.. want cows on their natural diets .. what they ate before we domesticated them. From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of ChrisSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 9:24 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: Organic versus conventional I have been reading this and my 2 cents. Just because you feed a concentrate you are feeding corn. I feed a concentrate and do not feed corn or soy. I just changed the oil portion to coconut oil as well.Now at least I know what is in what I feed. For us organic is not do able because of cost and availability. You need to ask the right questions and make the choices for yourself. All the hay we feed is grass and they are on pasture when we have grass. Considering cost and cow health I am happy with what I get. I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

We have 50 cows on 400 acres, the amount of land isn't the issue, the quality of the pastures, in my humble opinion,Is the issue and while we seed parts of our property in spring and fall, it will take years to get the pastures on good shape. And even if they were perfect each spring, the tremendous heat and drought make their spring "salad bar" look baked and dry. Jan Haybert

Then you probably have more cows that your land is able to hold. From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 4:59 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional I wish we could go 100% grass fed, and while we can achieve that in the spring when the grasses and clovers are lush and plentiful, in the heat of summer when the grass is dried and the clover nonexistent, our cows were loosing way too much weight to keep them on grass alone. With over 60 days without rain in late summer, we were prepared for the drop in production because of the heat but trying to regulate their weight with the grass drying out and dying, proved to be too difficult for us, even using rotational grazing. Jan Hayberthaybert@... I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH

and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:15 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed. If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group. Jan On Jan 11,

2011, at 10:49 AM, Crystal Palmer-Bull wrote: I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks,Ellen

[Guest guest]

Rotational grazing is one of regionally specific items. we are lucky in that we have a long growing season and enough rain to support it.It is very true that grass fed is what people are looking for. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.Kurtis Stavenwww.wildthingorganics.ca I wish we could go 100% grass fed, and while we can achieve that in the spring when the grasses and clovers are lush and plentiful, in the heat of summer when the grass is dried and the clover nonexistent, our cows were loosing way too much weight to keep them on grass alone. With over 60 days without rain in late summer, we were prepared for the drop in production because of the heat but trying to regulate their weight with the grass drying out and dying, proved to be too difficult for us, even using rotational grazing. Jan Hayberthaybert@... I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:15 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed. If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group. Jan I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks,Ellen

[Guest guest]

There are pockets of the right cows kicking around "IF" you can find them. That is a very big IF and a ton of searching. Then there is the issue of accessing that stock. You raised other good points that go along with this. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.Kurtis Stavenwww.wildthingorganics.ca  I have been following this thread with interest and offer these inputs: First, I have visited Jan's farm operation. It is the "Gold Standard" for cleanliness and neatness. What she has done and is doing is very impressive. Second, I don't think a lot of people in this group recognize the difference between a business and a hobby. This is apparent when the discussion of milk prices comes up. Some people get some good milk from hobby farmers at very low prices. Others are offended when farmers try to cover their costs and make a profit. Folks, when you are milking 18 cows, it is going to be an expensive hobby if treated as such. Since there is a limit as to what people can afford to pay for quality milk, there must be restrictions on the costs of production. Thirdly, Sheri hits the nail on the head about genetics. I have recently acquired a book entitled "Pastures; grazing, hay, and silage crops" published in 1949, coauthored by four people. In it there is a study done in north Alabama about 50 miles from where I live comparing the economics of producing milk on grass and hay alone versus supplementing with grain. This was a university study done with Jerseys, and the results were that more milk could be produced by supplementing with grain but the extra production did not cover the extra costs of the grain. So where are these cows now? Well that was before the Holstein invasion came to the South in the 1950's These Jerseys were only producing about 10,000 lbs (1,150 gallons) per year. In the fifties as emphasis started to be placed on quantity rather than quality and the costs of production rose but the price of milk did not, these old fashioned Jerseys could no longer make a profit whereas the Holsteins could. Therefore the Jersey breeders either replaced them with Holsteins or worked very hard to change the genetics of the Jersey breed to compete with the Holsteins and boost their production on a high starch, corn supplemented diet. This meant the demise of the dual purpose breeds such as the Red Poll which we raise. In my opinion, this push for production has nearly destroyed the Guernsey breed which today mostly looks like a poor representation of a Holstein rather than the beautiful, gentle, medium framed dairy cattle I remember from the 1950's. The old genetics we need for 100 % grass are very hard to find and are rarely concentrated in a single herd. About the best you can do is to buy lots of the best heifers you can find, feed as little corn as it takes to maintain body condition and keep the ones which do the best, cull the others, (that involves selling a $1,500 heifer for $600.00) keep a bull from your best cow, and breed up from there till you get back to no grain genetics. How long does this take? According to Gearald Fry, it can take up to 50 years to completely set the genetic makeup in a breed of cattle. I think Cheyene Christianson (a member of this group) has gotten his Holstein herd off grain in a much shorter time but still not over night. (I have done it with horses for 30 years and am now working with the genetics for finishing cattle on grass). I have a Holstein cow which only gets grain when she is being milked. She has an 8 day old calf. Her previous calf was born in Sept of 2008. This is what can happen when a breed which needs grain is fed only grass. This cow has never bred back until I wean her calf and stop milking her. As she gets older, it takes her longer to get her body condition back. Please forgive this long winded post but the point is that getting the genetics, the land, facilities, equipment, the know how, and the market together for a 100% grassfed, organic based dairy is a very great challange invloving a lot of time, money, and dedication. (It is beyond me.) Cleve Re: Organic versus conventional We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed. If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group. Jan I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional If organic was not available . . would you take raw conventional ? Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains. Thanks, Ellen No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3374 - Release Date: 01/11/11

[Guest guest]

I think you struck at the very heart of what all of us want in the end. That is "the right to choose without interference." In the end we really need to concentrate on that more so than different practices and who is better than who. If we divide ourselves over the details we play into the hands of our opposition. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.Kurtis Stavenwww.wildthingorganics.ca Here;s some food for thought............ I don't disagree with consumers wanting all grass fed, but it is important to know that all grass fed beef is more than likely going to be tough to chew. The grain is what puts the marbling in the meats and makes it tender. Tough to choose between the two. I want nothing to do with feed lot meat, ever, or antibiotics or hormones, my preference is to buy from a farmer who has the calves on full pasture with a daily dose of grain. I have had both, and the grass fed beef was just really very very lean and tough to chew, no matter how I cook it. I prefer a little grain feed and full pasture to grass fed only. Just my thoughts on it......... Vickie Osborn From: Crystal Palmer-Bull To: RawDairy Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:42 PM Subject: RE: Organic versus conventional I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

Very good point! Vickie Osborn

I think you struck at the very heart of what all of us want in the end. That is "the right to choose without interference." In the end we really need to concentrate on that more so than different practices and who is better than who. If we divide ourselves over the details we play into the hands of our opposition.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Kurtis Staven

www.wildthingorganics.ca

Here;s some food for thought............

I don't disagree with consumers wanting all grass fed, but it is important to know that all grass fed beef is more than likely going to be tough to chew. The grain is what puts the marbling in the meats and makes it tender. Tough to choose between the two.

I want nothing to do with feed lot meat, ever, or antibiotics or hormones, my preference is to buy from a farmer who has the calves on full pasture with a daily dose of grain.

I have had both, and the grass fed beef was just really very very lean and tough to chew, no matter how I cook it.

I prefer a little grain feed and full pasture to grass fed only. Just my thoughts on it.........

Vickie Osborn

From: Crystal Palmer-Bull

To: RawDairy

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:42 PM

Subject: RE: Organic versus conventional

I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

Yes that is the heart of it we all just want to be able to choose and live the way we believe to be the best, and not be harassed by everyone who comes along and thinks they have all the answers, whether that be Government or individuals, or a company etc.

matt

RE: Organic versus conventional

I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much, , for a great post!

OakMoon Farm & Creamerywww.oakmoonfarm.webs.com