Re: bicarb soda test

[Guest guest]

>OK, so I did the test (1/4 teaspoon bicarb soda in water first thing in the

morning) but what does it mean? First burp occurred 8 minutes after drinking

(it was a long wait). Second burp occurred another 5 minutes later. Would love

some feedback on this.

>

>TIA,

>

>Filippa

I was told the first burp should be in a minute or two. Longer means low acid.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

I was told the first burp should be in a minute or two. Longer means low acid.

-- Heidi

===> Ah, thank you Heidi. Nice to have confirmation of what I thought with

such a simple little test. Guess I better get on the HCl then. The first 8

minutes was a long wait - I actually thought I wasn't going to burp!

Filippa

[Guest guest]

~~~Hey you guys, what are talking about? I must have missed the initial

e-mail. I would love an easy way for people to check to see if they have

low stomach acid. I check this with my functional exam, but if I'm not

there to do a hands on then this sounds like a good suggestion. Please

tell me more.

Janice

===> Hi Janice. Just take a quarter teaspoon of bicarb soda in a bit of water on

an empty stomach first thing in the morning. Then wait till you burp! Heidi

says if your stomach acid is sufficient, you should burp in the first minute.

It took me 8 minutes to burp! It was a long wait. I had an unfinished bottle

of HCl in the cupboard. It says take one with each meal but I read in a book

that you can take more until you feel burning in your stomach. Then the next

meal, take that amount less one. I took about 3 last night with dinner. Didn't

really feel burning but thought I better not overdo it. Things looked better

digested in the toilet this morning! Don't know if that was the direct cause

though.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

> I would love an easy way for people to check to see if they have

> low stomach acid.

I wondered where this came from too. I thought it was from

's book Why Stomach Acid is Good for You (excellent book, BTW),

but I just finished it and didn't see anything about a test using

bicarb. Heidi?

As far as taking HCl goes, he says:

" To minimize side effects, it is always best to start with one

capsule of betaine HCl containing about 650 mg, with pepsin, in the

early part of each meal. If there are no problems after two or three

days, I recommend increasing the dose to two or three capsules in the

early part of each meal; then after another two to three days,

increase it again to three capsules. We increase the dose gradually

in this stepwise fashion until the recommended dose (five to seven

capsules for the " average " adult) is reached. When people have to

take several capsules with each meal, I suggest taking half just

after the first few bites and half midway through the meal. "

... " When HCl supplementation is not feasible, gradually increasing

quantities of lemon juice (citric acid) or vinegar (acetic acid) will

often relieve some or even all symptoms.... actual nutrient digestion

and assimilation are not improved nearly as much as with HCl

replacement. "

He also says that problems with HCl supplementation are rare, but he

still recommends using it only with supervision by a physician

knowledgeable in its use. Also it should not be used along with any

anti-inflammatory medication, and should usually be taken with pepsin

unless someone is sensitive to pepsin (which is rare).

-

[Guest guest]

>. We increase the dose gradually

>in this stepwise fashion until the recommended dose (five to seven

>capsules for the " average " adult) is reached. When people have to

>take several capsules with each meal, I suggest taking half just

>after the first few bites and half midway through the meal. "

For what it is worth, my method is: eat a meal. If it doesn't

seem to be digesting, take a Bio-gest (note the hypen) or two.

I guess I don't know where the test came from. I assumed it was from

his book too, but I actually heard it from the person who

recommended the book. And, I would tend to agree with

that I'm not sure how scientific it is. But, it seems to have worked

for a few folks I know.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi -

For what it is worth, my method is: eat a meal. If it doesn't

seem to be digesting, take a Bio-gest (note the hypen) or two.

===> I can't tell if it isn't digesting after eating. It just don' come out

right the next mornin' that's all!! It's like I've got a fermenting factory

down there or something. Not that I have gas. But I see lots of little bubbles

in the loo!

I guess I don't know where the test came from. I assumed it was from

his book too, but I actually heard it from the person who

recommended the book. And, I would tend to agree with

that I'm not sure how scientific it is. But, it seems to have worked for a few

folks I know.

==> So when you say it's worked for them. In what way has it worked? Have you

tried it? Any of you others? Can we have a bicarb soda poll? Who burps within

a minute here? And no cheating for all you people who have a maddening ability

to make yourself burp (my mum used to be able to burp the alphabet.) !

Filippa

[Guest guest]

>>He also says that problems with HCl supplementation are rare, but he

still recommends using it only with supervision by a physician

knowledgeable in its use. Also it should not be used along with any

anti-inflammatory medication, and should usually be taken with pepsin

unless someone is sensitive to pepsin (which is rare). -

Another question. Does your own HCl production capacity eventually kick in? Or

if you've got low stomach acid you have to supplement with HCl for the rest of

your life?

Filippa

[Guest guest]

>Another question. Does your own HCl production capacity eventually kick

>in? Or if you've got low stomach acid you have to supplement with HCl for

>the rest of your life?

Good question, Filippa, and I don't think addresses that in the

book, or at least I didn't come across it. He has lots of good info about

how digestion works, but the main complaint I have with the book is that he

doesn't address the issue of how poor diet can lead to low stomach acid in

the first place. So I think that the main focus of treatment really should

be eliminating anything you're doing that might be interfering with normal

acid production, like eating gluten grains and for some people all

starches, having chronically high cortisol, and taking antacids.

-

[Guest guest]

>===> I can't tell if it isn't digesting after eating. It just don' come out

right the next mornin' that's all!! It's like I've got a fermenting factory

down there or something. Not that I have gas. But I see lots of little bubbles

in the loo!

Ah, well, that makes it harder. Yeah, that is considered a sign

of food not getting digested. I get that when I eat food

with casein or gluten in it, and until I did the WD it never

was REALLY solid. I think it IS a little fermenting

factory -- when food isn't digested, the bacteria get the

incorrect mix of food and the wrong germs proliferate.

> ==> So when you say it's worked for them. In what way has it worked? Have

you tried it? Any of you others? Can we have a bicarb soda poll? Who burps

within a minute here? And no cheating for all you people who have a maddening

ability to make yourself burp (my mum used to be able to burp the alphabet.) !

It worked in that they didn't burp, or took forever to --

and those folks were the ones that got better on

Bio-Gest. A poll isn't a bad idea though ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Another question. Does your own HCl production capacity eventually kick in?

Or if you've got low stomach acid you have to supplement with HCl for the rest

of your life?

>

>Filippa

That's where I disagree with him. He's a typical doctor in that

he's quite willing to treat a condition forever ... his take

is that HCL is just low in some people, and it declines

with age. I REALLY don't agree with that -- partly I'm a

reactionary after being told all my problems were

" getting older " .

From hanging around the celiac group, it seems that

low HCL, low pancreatic enzymes, gall bladder problems,

and liver problems can all be caused by gluten intolerance.

And there are studies that actually show the etiology for

some of these. Sometimes they reverse, sometimes they

don't, on a GF diet.

For myself, my stomach REALLY started working nicely

on the WD. So I think part of the issue might be that

Americans stick food in the stomach constantly,

which overloads those little acid producing cells

(or some such thing) and messes up acid production.

Food combinations might be an issue to. The

observation that greens seem to help digestion

has been mine too. On the WD you are supposed

to eat greens before the meal. And the Koreans

eat kimchi with EVERY meal.

Sooo ... I THINK my acid is just fine now. I don't

take bio-gest very often. However, Dr. 's take

is that his patients need it for life -- he doesn't seem

to mention food allergies much, nor does he do

the WD though.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Used to have gas stuck a lot when l did the SAD diet. Lemon juice or any

citric acid gave me heartburn on top of it. Bicarb soda would get rid of

heartburn. Apple cider vinegar got rid of any distress in less than half an

hour.

Wanita

>.. " When HCl supplementation is not feasible, gradually increasing

>quantities of lemon juice (citric acid) or vinegar (acetic acid) will

>often relieve some or even all symptoms.... actual nutrient digestion

>and assimilation are not improved nearly as much as with HCl

>replacement. "

>

>-

[Guest guest]

> Used to have gas stuck a lot when l did the SAD diet. Lemon juice

>or any citric acid gave me heartburn on top of it. Bicarb soda would

>get rid of heartburn. Apple cider vinegar got rid of any distress in

>less than half an

> hour.

>

> Wanita

That's pretty interesting. Any idea why the lemon juice made it worse

while the ACV did the opposite?

-

[Guest guest]

>Another question. Does your own HCl production capacity eventually kick

>in? Or if you've got low stomach acid you have to supplement with HCl for

>the rest of your life?

Good question, Filippa, and I don't think addresses that in the

book, or at least I didn't come across it. He has lots of good info about

how digestion works, but the main complaint I have with the book is that he

doesn't address the issue of how poor diet can lead to low stomach acid in

the first place. So I think that the main focus of treatment really should

be eliminating anything you're doing that might be interfering with normal

acid production, like eating gluten grains and for some people all

starches, having chronically high cortisol, and taking antacids. -

---------------------------------------------------------

I've read that not eating enough fat/protein can cause low stomach acidity.

Apparently this is common in vegetarians. Makes sense in my case - veggie from

age 14 to 32 (last year!). Had spates of eating fish but couldn't digest it

very well - that just sent me back to being vegetarian but now I know it's

because I didn't have enough stomach acid. So I guess my point is it's not just

about elimination but about what you're not eating, perhaps, that is also part

of the problem? Last 2 days of BMs have been much better digested. I can't say

it's the HCl as I've made a few other changes too (namely some supplements plus

raw liver). But it feels right so I'm going to continue it for a while. I just

hope it helps my fatigue too! I guess if I keep feeding my body all this

wonderful NT food, eventually my body will get the idea that I need more stomach

acid. So I liked your suggestion of building it up then reducing it.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

Filippa,

> I've read that not eating enough fat/protein can cause low stomach

acidity. Apparently this is common in vegetarians.

I agree, but in my experience, my continuing to be vegetarian over

the years was more the result of not being able to eat enough

fat/protein, or it was a vicious cycle-- I couldn't digest the

fat/protein so I didn't eat it, so I didn't make enough enzymes to

digest it, etc.

And the preponderance of grains on a vegetarian diet might have been

the underlying reason why I couldn't digest the fats/protein in the

first place. Then by continuing to avoid those good foods, the

vicious cycle took hold.

>Makes sense in my case - veggie from age 14 to 32 (last year!). Had

spates of eating fish but couldn't digest it very well -

Me too, but then I found that I could digest raw, marinated fish much

better-- who knows if it was because it was raw, or because it had

been sitting in lemon juice and the acid was what I needed?

I'm glad this subject is being discussed now, because I had some

trouble taking HCl in the past and lost interest, but now I'm working

with it again. It's easy to get discouraged and put something aside,

but then you find out there are lots more ways of approaching it.

Reminds me of how I wince when people say that they tried " diet " as

if that means only one thing, they tried that one thing, and it

didn't work. Everyone who thinks that should read the *entire*

archives of this list <lol>!

-

[Guest guest]

At 07:49 PM 11/13/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>> Used to have gas stuck a lot when l did the SAD diet. Lemon juice

>>or any citric acid gave me heartburn on top of it. Bicarb soda would

>>get rid of heartburn. Apple cider vinegar got rid of any distress in

>>less than half an

>> hour.

>>

>> Wanita

>

>

>That's pretty interesting. Any idea why the lemon juice made it worse

>while the ACV did the opposite?

>

>-

Theory l had no clue to then. Knowing now l'm a metabolic protein type,

apples are one of the few fruits l should eat that don't speed up fast

metabolisms. Citrus is the worst fruit speeding up the most, an already

fast metabolism, therefore creating more problems. Malic acid in the apples

could have something to do with it too. Never tried white vinegar.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>I agree, but in my experience, my continuing to be vegetarian over

the years was more the result of not being able to eat enough

fat/protein, or it was a vicious cycle-- I couldn't digest the

fat/protein so I didn't eat it, so I didn't make enough enzymes to

digest it, etc.

===> That makes sense. I can't really say the same thing. I never really noticed

I had digestion issues except constipation sometimes but I had no idea what the

reason was. For me, vegetarianism was totally ideological. I said I couldn't

digest meat but it was mainly in my head as I never tried.

>And the preponderance of grains on a vegetarian diet might have been

the underlying reason why I couldn't digest the fats/protein in the

first place. Then by continuing to avoid those good foods, the

vicious cycle took hold.

==> That's a really good point. I'm sure I had loads of grains. I really had

no idea of nutrition.

>Me too, but then I found that I could digest raw, marinated fish much

better-- who knows if it was because it was raw, or because it had

been sitting in lemon juice and the acid was what I needed?

===> Well things definitely improved when I started eating fish regularly in

Japan. It was just unfortunate that prawns caused my first gallbladder attack.

Then a naturopath put me on a vegan diet and because my gallbladder flush was

successful and improved things so much for me, I decided vegan was the best

thing for me. Added to this then the two times I was forced to have fish when

we were travelling led to constipation so again I decided a vegan diet must be

best for me. Now I know better! When I first started having meat, I had so

much anxiety about whether it was going to come out the other end LOL! Now it's

really nice to learn that it also doesn't have an acidic effect on the body - my

other anxiety. I've confirmed that a few times by having a really meaty meal

then checking my urine/saliva Ph the next morning and finding it to be 7.4

(which it supposedly is under ideal dietary conditions).

>I'm glad this subject is being discussed now, because I had some

trouble taking HCl in the past and lost interest, but now I'm working

with it again. It's easy to get discouraged and put something aside,

but then you find out there are lots more ways of approaching it.

==> It has motivated me too. I only took HCl half-heartedly after a psychic

told me to take it (LOL). Now I've heard the science behind it all I'm more

motivated. Just bought a big bottle today. Wish we could get such good

supplements here as you can buy in the States.

>Reminds me of how I wince when people say that they tried " diet " as

if that means only one thing, they tried that one thing, and it

didn't work. Everyone who thinks that should read the *entire*

archives of this list <lol>! -

====> I think we've all been guilty of that. It's very hard to stick at

something which is why diets only work for some. How many have failed on Atkins

for example because they've given up when they feel lousy instead of sticking at

it until they feel better. It's hard to have faith.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

wrote:

having chronically high cortisol,

,

What would cause that. . .stress?

Thanks

Sheryl

Sheryl Illustrations

http://dovedesignsrus.com

[Guest guest]

Wanda wrote:

Knowing now l'm a metabolic protein type

Wanda,

Is that per a diet you are on?

Hugs

Sheryl

Sheryl Illustrations

http://dovedesignsrus.com

[Guest guest]

>Wanda wrote:

>Knowing now l'm a metabolic protein type

>

>Wanda,

>

>Is that per a diet you are on?

>

>Hugs

>Sheryl

Not exactly. Use it as a guideline as to what not to eat but don't keep to

it 100%. Just so happened that lemon juice or vinegar that came up in the

HCI testing had relevance to me with ACV anyway. Most of us here use trial

and error to find what works for the individual. Allergies, stress levels,

ancestry and location (even though not mentioned much) all play into this.

What l do is a combination of what makes sense and works so far from many

sources, mostly books and articles suggested on this list. If it stops

working and l can't figure out what was different it gets trashed. Guess

l've reduced factors so its easier to eliminate causes. Not claiming its

100% figured out as l doubt anyone can here.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

--- Filippa <filippa91@...> wrote: > Heidi -

> ===> I can't tell if it isn't digesting after

> eating. It just don' come out right the next

> mornin' that's all!! It's like I've got a

> fermenting factory down there or something. Not

> that I have gas. But I see lots of little bubbles

> in the loo!

What causes flatulence? I have recently started to

get it, and it reminds me of when I used to eat loads

of carbs. It seems linked to the very loose BMs I

have in the morning, whereas I have very solid BMs in

the evening. I have no idea why there is a great

difference between the 2, or what is causing each

type! But I just want to stop the parping!

Any ideas?

TIA

Jo

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[Guest guest]

--- In , " Filippa "

> ===> That makes sense. I can't really say the same thing. I

never really noticed I had digestion issues except constipation

sometimes but I had no idea what the reason was. For me,

vegetarianism was totally ideological. I said I couldn't digest

meat but it was mainly in my head as I never tried.

-----I think a lot of people become vegetarians because they DO

have difficulty digesting meat and fat. Low fat dieting, which just

about every woman (or female teenager) has done, leads to zinc

deficiency, which leads to trouble digesting protein and fat. The

closer they get to a veg. diet, the harder eating meat becomes,

and the more vegetarianism appeals. I think Ross

addresses this in The Diet Cure/

[Guest guest]

>What causes flatulence? I have recently started to

>get it, and it reminds me of when I used to eat loads

>of carbs. It seems linked to the very loose BMs I

>have in the morning, whereas I have very solid BMs in

>the evening.

Try a food diary? I get loose 'uns about 24 hours after

I eat something problematic, which I guess makes

sense.

My last problem with flatulence turned out to

be cabbage though. I was shredding it and putting it in

broth (not kimchi, just raw cabbage -- kimchi isn't

a problem that way). I suspect raw broccoli does

the same thing. And of course mis-cooked beans.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

-----I think a lot of people become vegetarians because they DO

have difficulty digesting meat and fat. Low fat dieting, which just

about every woman (or female teenager) has done, leads to zinc

deficiency, which leads to trouble digesting protein and fat. The

closer they get to a veg. diet, the harder eating meat becomes,

and the more vegetarianism appeals. I think Ross

addresses this in The Diet Cure/

===> Well bingo! I'm also zinc deficient. It all adds up doesn't it!

Filippa

[Guest guest]

Jo,

<<I However, I guess it could still be a problem with legumes. I've noticed

this effect of legumes when I haven't soaked, I was hoping soaking would

eliminate the problem. Probably not.>>

----> in Indian [Asian] cooking they always use a pinch of asafoetida with

legumes as it's supposed to help with digestion/flatulence... it's widely

available from shops and some supermarkets [here in the UK anyway]... caraway

seeds are supposed to be useful in a similar way too. Dedy

===> I've also heard, chewing fennel seeds after a meal is good.

Filippa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/16/03 5:44:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Cabbage juice contains something that kills the h.pylori bacteria, most

> often the cause of stomach ulcers.

>

So does kombucha, and Heidi's said that kefir does.

Chris