Re: Oil Alcohol Separation

[Guest guest]

> I just made two batches of perfume which contain infused oil and

enfleurage alcohol (carefully strained)

> The oil separated from the alcohol (I didn't add water)

> Does anyone know what caused this to happen?

Hi Margo:

Without some sort of emulsifier, the oil and alcohol (it's still considered

to be a " water based " liquid) will separate.

Cat

[Guest guest]

>

> I just made two batches of perfume which contain infused oil and enfleurage

alcohol (carefully strained)

> The oil separated from the alcohol (I didn't add water)

> Does anyone know what caused this to happen?

>

> Stumped,

> Margo

The oil you used for your infusion or maceration will not mix with alcohol and

will separate. Use that oil for oil based perfumes and your alcohol tincture

for alcohol based perfumes. Essential oils are not the same as carrier oils

(almond oil, coconut, FCO, jojoba, etc.) . They will " dissolve " in high proof

alcohol while your carrier will not.

Are you sure you are preparing an enfleurage and not a tincture? In an

enfleurage the plant material is not saturated with the fat. The plants are

laid on top of the fat (usually a soft solid) tray, recharged daily until the

fat absorbs the odor molecules and then the fat is " washed " with alcohol.

If you put the plants directly in alcohol that is a tincture. Bear in mind that

a tincture will also extract water from a plant and become diluted. As a

result, it's best to tincture with fully dried plant matter, if you would like

to control the alcohol content. There are gauges you can use to measure the

percentage of water in your alcohol. The more water, the more likelihood your

essential oils will separate and your blend will become subject to spoilage if

the alcohol content is too low and you will need a preservative.

Maggie

[Guest guest]

Hi - I've been reading with interest and have a question about all this.

The 33% diluted absolutes from white lotus (diluted in fractionated coconut

oil) seem to mix in with alcohol fine. I'm wondering why they do, but

other oils don't so much?

Is it all about ratios? Types of oil? How fast you add one to the other?

Or whether there is water involved as well?

I'm trying to understand!

Best wishes

Johanna

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi - I've been reading with interest and have a question about all this.

> The 33% diluted absolutes from white lotus (diluted in fractionated coconut

> oil) seem to mix in with alcohol fine. I'm wondering why they do, but

> other oils don't so much?

>

> Is it all about ratios? Types of oil? How fast you add one to the other?

> Or whether there is water involved as well?

>

> I'm trying to understand!

>

> Best wishes

> Johanna

Hi, Johanna:

Fractionated coconut oil absorbs water so there is no water content when you mix

it with the alcohol.

I always add the oils slowly to the alcohol while stirring

Best Regards,

Margo

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > I just made two batches of perfume which contain infused oil and

> enfleurage alcohol (carefully strained)

> > The oil separated from the alcohol (I didn't add water)

> > Does anyone know what caused this to happen?

>

> Hi Margo:

> Without some sort of emulsifier, the oil and alcohol (it's still considered

> to be a " water based " liquid) will separate.

> Cat

>

Hi, Cat:

Thank you for responding to my post.

I guess you can tell I'm a newbie at natural perfume making.

I use emulsifiers when I make lotion. It didn't occur to me to add an

emulsifier when making perfume.

So, what type of emulsifier do you recommend and how much?

Best Regards,

Margo

[Guest guest]

> >

> > I just made two batches of perfume which contain infused oil and enfleurage

alcohol (carefully strained)

> > The oil separated from the alcohol (I didn't add water)

> > Does anyone know what caused this to happen?

> >

> > Stumped,

> > Margo

>

> The oil you used for your infusion or maceration will not mix with alcohol and

will separate. Use that oil for oil based perfumes and your alcohol tincture

for alcohol based perfumes. Essential oils are not the same as carrier oils

(almond oil, coconut, FCO, jojoba, etc.) . They will " dissolve " in high proof

alcohol while your carrier will not.

>

> Are you sure you are preparing an enfleurage and not a tincture? In an

enfleurage the plant material is not saturated with the fat. The plants are

laid on top of the fat (usually a soft solid) tray, recharged daily until the

fat absorbs the odor molecules and then the fat is " washed " with alcohol.

>

> If you put the plants directly in alcohol that is a tincture. Bear in mind

that a tincture will also extract water from a plant and become diluted. As a

result, it's best to tincture with fully dried plant matter, if you would like

to control the alcohol content. There are gauges you can use to measure the

percentage of water in your alcohol. The more water, the more likelihood your

essential oils will separate and your blend will become subject to spoilage if

the alcohol content is too low and you will need a preservative.

> Maggie

>

Hi, Maggie:

I enfleuraged in mango butter and recharged 5X. Then washed with everclear.

The water must have been in the infused oil.

Thank you for responding to my post.

Best Regards,

Margo

[Guest guest]

> Thank you for responding to my post.

>

> I guess you can tell I'm a newbie at natural perfume making.

>

> I use emulsifiers when I make lotion. It didn't occur to me to add an

emulsifier when making perfume.

>

> So, what type of emulsifier do you recommend and how much?

Hi Margo:

Most emulsifiers are going to be synthetic chemicals, which are not

considered " natural " .

Even if you were to use emulsifier, you would wind up with a creamy, almost

lotion-like product. Not that there aren't lotion and cream-based perfumes,

but I don't think that is what you are trying to achieve (please correct me

if I'm wrong here).

What I would do is decant off the oil portion and bottle it as an oil-based

scent. Then let the alcohol settle and bottle it separately.

You can also incorporate the oil into your lotions for fragrance!

Hope this helps,

Cat

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > Thank you for responding to my post.

> >

> > I guess you can tell I'm a newbie at natural perfume making.

> >

> > I use emulsifiers when I make lotion. It didn't occur to me to add an

> emulsifier when making perfume.

> >

> > So, what type of emulsifier do you recommend and how much?

>

> Hi Margo:

> Most emulsifiers are going to be synthetic chemicals, which are not

> considered " natural " .

>

> Even if you were to use emulsifier, you would wind up with a creamy, almost

> lotion-like product. Not that there aren't lotion and cream-based perfumes,

> but I don't think that is what you are trying to achieve (please correct me

> if I'm wrong here).

>

> What I would do is decant off the oil portion and bottle it as an oil-based

> scent. Then let the alcohol settle and bottle it separately.

>

> You can also incorporate the oil into your lotions for fragrance!

>

> Hope this helps,

> Cat

>

Hi, Cat:

Thank you so much for responding.

That's what I did with another batch which separated. I thought it was the

grade of perfumer's alcohol that caused the separation.

By the way, I see alot of recipes for natural perfume where the eo's are added

directly to the alcohol without first diluting it in a carrier oil.

Best Regards,

Margo

[Guest guest]

I think there is some sort of confusion here as to what your process is. I will

take it that when you mention " oil " that separates from alcohol you are refering

to vegetable oil (carrier) that results from mixing the enfleurage base (mango

butter in your case) with alcohol. When your butter is saturated with scent you

mix it with alcohol and stir them really well. This way most of the scent will

go from the fat to the alcohol. When you stop stirring the fat and alcohol will

eventually seperate. This is something you want! You don't want fat in your

alcohol based perfume. They will never blend without the use of a very strong

emulsifier and even if you choose to use one the product will hardly be of any

use (emulsifiers weaken the scent of a perfume and you will get a burning

alcoholic emulsion).

What I suggest you do is follow the traditional method which is to separate the

two phases(alcohol from fat). The alcohol you can use to make a perfume. Just

add to it your essential oils, absolutes or CO2 extracts. Don't add any oil! The

leftover fat you can use to make a cream. When you make a natural cream the

process involves heat of the oil/fat so any residue alcohol will evaporate

leaving you with a lightly scented fat that is good for the skin.

Hope I got it right and my answer is not totally irrelevant

PS: About what you read about people adding essential oils undilluted in alcohol

to make perfume: Adding essential oils in alcohol is essentialy what all the

fuss is about. Professionals use them prediluted in alcohol -not in oil- as to

get a better estimate of what the finished product will smell like and cut back

on expensive materials.

[Guest guest]

>

Dear Lekavalio:

There is a misunderstanding here. I am not talking about the method I used for

enfleurage.

I was referring to the final stages of formulating the actual perfume.

This problem of alcohol and oil separation has been resolved.

PS: essential oils diluted in a carrier oil is my preferred method for making

perfume.

Thank you for adding your two scents

Best Wishes

Margo

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi - I've been reading with interest and have a question about all this.

> The 33% diluted absolutes from white lotus (diluted in fractionated coconut

> oil) seem to mix in with alcohol fine. I'm wondering why they do, but

> other oils don't so much?

>

> Is it all about ratios? Types of oil? How fast you add one to the other?

> Or whether there is water involved as well?

>

> I'm trying to understand!

>

> Best wishes

> Johanna

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Fractionated coconut oil absorbs water so there is no water content when you

mix it with the alcohol.

Question: is fractionated coconut oil considered a natural ingredient?

I always thought no, because it requires more than minimal processing to obtain.

Sue

[Guest guest]

>

> > Hi Johanna,

> >

> > Fractionated coconut oil is the only carrier / vegetable oil that

> > is miscible in alcohol.

> >

> > Cheers

> > Bruce

>

> Hi Bruce:

>

> That's something that I don't ever think has been discussed here

> before. Can you give us some details? If a strongly-scented

> infusion of a raw material, e.g., rose petals was made in FCO,

> what might be the way/ratio it's used in a perfume?

> Anya McCoy

Hi,

I would also be really interested in finding out about this Bruce! I think it's

very exciting, & is something I didn't know about. Percentage/ ratio

information would be so helpful!

[Guest guest]

> > That's something that I don't ever think has been discussed here

> > before. Can you give us some details? If a strongly-scented

> > infusion of a raw material, e.g., rose petals was made in FCO,

> > what might be the way/ratio it's used in a perfume?

> > Anya McCoy

>

> Hi,

>

> I would also be really interested in finding out about this Bruce! I think

it's very exciting, & is something I didn't know about. Percentage/ ratio

information would be so helpful!

>

>

>

Hi Anya, ,

sorry I missed your reply Anya,

a short answer, you could use it in the same way / ratio

that you might use an essential oil...adjusting for the dilution

/ strength of the FCO blend...

assuming the FCO maceration is strong enough....

if you recall a few years ago white lotus sold some of their absolutes

diluted 30 to 50 percent with FCO, these absolutes were the very thick

non pourable absolutes, but when cut with the FCO they were workable,

of course those are much stronger than a FCO maceration, say of rose

pedals....or frankincense resin, etc....

so if used in an alcohol based perfume you would use much less

than the FCO maceration, yes...

but an exact usage is difficult, personally I would not use more a few percent

of it in the fragrance base....maybe 10 percent...

in an alcohol based fragrance.

a FCO / frankincense resin sun maceration, say 50/50, becomes very strong and

might only need a few ml's in your base...

as compared to the rose pedals......

hope this helps a bit....

cheers

bruce