Re: Eskimos (obese, sedentary but healthy)

[Guest guest]

>I think two interesting points stem from this. How important is

>exercising in fighting CVD? This study would suggest that it is not.

>However, my suspicion is that these people had low heart disease in

>SPITE of being sedentary and obese. Had they been thin and in good

>shape their risks would probably be near zero.

The newest data seems to show that CVD comes from " inflammation " .

Modern humans seem to have a lot of generalized inflammation,

all over the body (Times had an article on it, even). Some kinds of fats,

namely the rancid and trans fats and Omega 6?, are inflammatory. Also, I think,

all that stuff that leaks from leaky gut is inflammatory. Leaky gut

has been linked to grain reactions. Some

writers have also linked inflammation to lectins in general

(though lectins are found in animal foods too, the ones in

grains and legumes tend to resist digestion and are often

somewhat toxic).

>I'm not an expert on Eskimo nutrition, but the fact that they were on

>average obese was quite starttling to me. According to the Atkins

>mantra, it is impossible to get fat without consuming carbohydrates.

>Perhaps their metabolism is different from ours?

This came up before, and I think it is related to carnivorism.

Some animals DO get fat eating just other animals -- whales

and walruses come to mind. Humans lose weight when they

go into ketosis, because they lack glucose to use fat efficiently

so use lots of calories. BUT some animals (and people) can

convert protein to glucose quite well. Living in an environment

where food isn't all that plentiful, it would make sense that

Inuit are true carnivores, that is, they do convert protein

to glucose.

I also wonder if long-term Atkinsers convert eventually

too, which might account for those who " plateau " .

Ketogenesis is a survival mechanism, but the body

doesn't generally like inefficiency, so if we were true

carnivores at one point in our history, then we would have

the ability somewhere in our genes to live off an

all-animal diet without being in ketosis.

Actually the Atkins book mentions this, I believe, and says

you should cut down on protein if you plateau and

go for more fat. Maybe the Inuit are eating more fish

and less blubber after they heard some low-fat

propaganda ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

--- paultheo2000 <paultheo2000@...> wrote: >

According

> to the Atkins

> mantra, it is impossible to get fat without

> consuming carbohydrates.

I don't believe atkins states this at all. Excess

consumption of refined carbs can make a person obese -

but from what I've read, he never stated this is the

only reason.

He does acknowledge that excess calories will cause

weight gain: " calories count but carbs count more " to

paraphrase. If the eskimos are in fact overeating,

then this would cause weight gain.

Jo

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/2/03 10:39:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,

heidis@... writes:

> The newest data seems to show that CVD comes from " inflammation " .

> Modern humans seem to have a lot of generalized inflammation,

> all over the body (Times had an article on it, even). Some kinds of fats,

> namely the rancid and trans fats and Omega 6?

Arachidonic acid feeds the inflammatory eicosanoid pathways, but IMO it is

baseless to call arachidonic acid a " bad fat. " I don't think inflammation is

bad in any way whatsoever, and in fact is a sign of a good system. Dentists

still assume that abscesses and other forms of inflammation in the mouth are

signs of infection and the worse the inf. the worse the infection, but Price

found

the opposite, that people who had abscesses in response to infection were

saved from systemic infections, while people who were asymptomatic had very

severe infections that could spread to be systemic.

Price's work showed that dental decay is a prime cause of heart disease, and

newer research is turning up the same stuff. I suspect the connection with

inflammation has nothing at all to do with too much AA but everything to do with

systemic infections. A new study I heard on the radio at the hairdresser

found that periodontal disease is a better predictor of heart disease than

obesity.

Too much shorter-chain n-6 pufa can compete with the desaturase enzymes to

disable the conversion of n-3s and vice versa, in which case your

anti-inflammatory's could suffer, but there's no harm in the amount of AA people

consume IMO

and active people should try to consume high amounts of AA.

> This came up before, and I think it is related to carnivorism.

> Some animals DO get fat eating just other animals -- whales

> and walruses come to mind. Humans lose weight when they

> go into ketosis, because they lack glucose to use fat efficiently

> so use lots of calories.

They can get fat in ketosis too, though, like diabetics.

It seems rational to me to assume that Inuit are genetically programmed to

store more body fat because they live in a cold climate. They probably have

higher ratio of fat receptor cells that are insensitive to steroid hormones.

Chris

[Guest guest]

But doesn't he advise people to eat as much as they want (from non

carb sources)?

-

>

> According

> > to the Atkins

> > mantra, it is impossible to get fat without

> > consuming carbohydrates.

>

>

> I don't believe atkins states this at all. Excess

> consumption of refined carbs can make a person obese -

> but from what I've read, he never stated this is the

> only reason.

>

> He does acknowledge that excess calories will cause

> weight gain: " calories count but carbs count more " to

> paraphrase. If the eskimos are in fact overeating,

> then this would cause weight gain.

>

> Jo

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE

> Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk

[Guest guest]

Hi everybody!

I've been lurking all week because I've struggled to keep up with

reading all the posts, and by the time I've finished reading, I'm

too pooped to post! (That and I've forgotten which posts I wanted

to respond to :-)) I prefer to be involved with the discussions

(minus the vitriolic ones!) rather than a passive lurker, but I really

do enjoy reading your messages! I think the level of intelligence,

humor, and wisdom on this list is extremely high... (I esp.

enjoyed Chris' recent posts!)

OK, on the topic at hand:

> I'm not an expert on Eskimo nutrition, but the fact that they were

on

> average obese was quite starttling to me. According to the

Atkins

> mantra, it is impossible to get fat without consuming

carbohydrates.

> Perhaps their metabolism is different from ours?

-------- Perhaps eskimos adapted to the frigid climate by

becoming efficient body fat storers, like many arctic mammals

i.e. seals and polar bears (though I remember reading an

explorer say that eskimos weren't fat, they just appeared that way

because their clothes were so thick and their faces were round--

so if they're obese now I guess that implies some sort of new

development).

Another possibility: maybe their bodies are creating fat storage

as a way to manage the excess mercury they have been

consuming in fish, as a place to store the toxins. I remember a

few month back there was a discussion about this phenomenon

in reference to L.Ron Hubbards detox program.

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " paultheo2000 " <paultheo2000@...>

> I'm not an expert on Eskimo nutrition, but the fact that they were on

> average obese was quite starttling to me. According to the Atkins

> mantra, it is impossible to get fat without consuming carbohydrates.

If Atkins ever actually said this (I don't know), he had backed away

from it in recent years and acknowledged that calories do count. Here's

a quote from his web site which I think accurately summarizes his

position:

" Although you do not need to count calories, it is certainly possible to

consume too many calories even if your carb intake is on target. If you

are losing weight, there is no need to concern yourself with counting

calories. However, if you are unable to lose weight or actually regain

weight lost, one possibility is that you are taking in more calories

than you expend through exercise, thermogenesis (the body's own heat

production) and other metabolic functions. "

[Guest guest]

,

I'm pretty sure the Eskimos are consuming sugar and carbs now. Doubt there

are any untouched bands by now not consuming the foods of modern

civilization. There still may be traditional people refusing though. There

are some who eat as traditionally as possible on every reservation down

here, refusing government surplus and food stamps even. Does the article

say if they live on reserve still or have moved into the cities? Last l

heard about one of the last untouched Eskimo bands was a road was put into

there for oil or some other resource. With the construction men comes the

alcohol, food, electricity to extend daylight, shorten sleep and mess with

natural cycles. The worst problem here and on other reserves/reservations

is an extremely high per capita teenage suicide rate. Even though fish may

still be eaten as main part of diet its quite likely there is feasting but

more likely when the modern civilization foods come in by the truckloads to

the reserves. This is fattier cold water fish too in comparison to less

fattier warm water of the Japanese diet for example. Life gets more

sedentary when the land you used to hunt or forage is taken or you move to

a city to find a job and there are none. Give Canada a lot of credit. Watch

their news and it covers First Nations people often. Here there is no

coverage of any Native American news in any national broadcast media.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Only Atkins literature I've read is from the early nineties where he

does state something similar to what I mentioned. I guess it makes his

views more accurate although somewhat less exciting and extraordinary.

-

--- In , " Berg " <bberg@c...>

wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " paultheo2000 " <paultheo2000@y...>

>

> > I'm not an expert on Eskimo nutrition, but the fact that they were on

> > average obese was quite starttling to me. According to the Atkins

> > mantra, it is impossible to get fat without consuming carbohydrates.

>

> If Atkins ever actually said this (I don't know), he had backed away

> from it in recent years and acknowledged that calories do count. Here's

> a quote from his web site which I think accurately summarizes his

> position:

>

> " Although you do not need to count calories, it is certainly possible to

> consume too many calories even if your carb intake is on target. If you

> are losing weight, there is no need to concern yourself with counting

> calories. However, if you are unable to lose weight or actually regain

> weight lost, one possibility is that you are taking in more calories

> than you expend through exercise, thermogenesis (the body's own heat

> production) and other metabolic functions. "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wanita thanks for posting this. This is was exactly my hunch but I

wasn't certain so I refrained on it. Glad to get confirmation.

DMM

> ,

>

> I'm pretty sure the Eskimos are consuming sugar and carbs now.

Doubt there

> are any untouched bands by now not consuming the foods of modern

> civilization. There still may be traditional people refusing

though. There

> are some who eat as traditionally as possible on every reservation

down

> here, refusing government surplus and food stamps even. Does the

article

> say if they live on reserve still or have moved into the cities?

Last l

> heard about one of the last untouched Eskimo bands was a road was

put into

> there for oil or some other resource. With the construction men

comes the

> alcohol, food, electricity to extend daylight, shorten sleep and

mess with

> natural cycles. The worst problem here and on other

reserves/reservations

> is an extremely high per capita teenage suicide rate. Even though

fish may

> still be eaten as main part of diet its quite likely there is

feasting but

> more likely when the modern civilization foods come in by the

truckloads to

> the reserves. This is fattier cold water fish too in comparison to

less

> fattier warm water of the Japanese diet for example. Life gets more

> sedentary when the land you used to hunt or forage is taken or you

move to

> a city to find a job and there are none. Give Canada a lot of

credit. Watch

> their news and it covers First Nations people often. Here there is

no

> coverage of any Native American news in any national broadcast

media.

>

> Wanita

[Guest guest]

> But doesn't he advise people to eat as much as they want (from non

> carb sources)?

>

> -

Please read Atkins for yourself. If you're going to pursue

an interest in diet to the degree that it seems you wish to,

then you really can't afford not to study Atkins for yourself.

I also heard alot of horror stories about the Atkins diet and

was shocked and amazed, when I actually read him, at how badly

he is being misrepresented.

[Guest guest]

DMM,

Without specifics in this article as to what is eaten besides fish its

inaccurate imo to the findings and future implications. If PUFA oils and

veggie grain lards are now widely available along with sugar and grains the

future only holds increasing diabetes and heart disease, higher in all

minorities with a SAD diet. Doubt there is genetic disposition to store

body fat. WAP proved what happens to teeth alone with change in diet in one

generation. Indigenous people all over the world exhibit the same storing

of fat, pre insulin resistance body shape when their traditional foods are

lost and sedentary life is included.

Wanita

At 10:39 PM 11/2/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>Wanita thanks for posting this. This is was exactly my hunch but I

>wasn't certain so I refrained on it. Glad to get confirmation.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/3/03 11:51:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Doubt there is genetic disposition to store

> body fat. WAP proved what happens to teeth alone with change in diet in one

> generation. Indigenous people all over the world exhibit the same storing

> of fat, pre insulin resistance body shape when their traditional foods are

> lost and sedentary life is included.

It seems perfectly sensible to me that in a colder climate it is *desirable*

to have a higher body fat. That said, while I don't have a copy, it seems we

could settle this quite easily by taking a look at Price's pictures of the

healthy Inuit. Are they fatter than his other healthy subjects or not?

Chris

[Guest guest]

--- paultheo2000 <paultheo2000@...> wrote: >

But doesn't he advise people to eat as much as they

> want (from non

> carb sources)?

>

> -

>

No he advises you to eat as much as you NEED! There's

a very big difference. Basically, he says stop when

you're full and don't pig out, which is very different

to how most non-atkinsers see the diet which is " eat

until you're stuffed " .

Jo

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[Guest guest]

>It seems perfectly sensible to me that in a colder climate it is *desirable*

>to have a higher body fat. That said, while I don't have a copy, it seems

we

>could settle this quite easily by taking a look at Price's pictures of the

>healthy Inuit. Are they fatter than his other healthy subjects or not?

>

Didn't Steffanson write that although their faces were round and fat

looking in their sealskin parka hoods they were not overweight underneath?

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>> According to the Atkins

mantra, it is impossible to get fat without consuming carbohydrates. <<

Well, not really - he says in the absence of a psychological eating disorder, if

you are exercising, and if you don't eat past being satisfied (not stuffed).

I also believe that there is a bit of a circular definition going on here.

If " obese " is a certain level of body fat, then anyone with that level or above

is " obese. " But how was that level arrived at? Either arbitrarily or with some

basis. If with a basis, what is the basis? Does it apply to every culture, every

race, every genetic variation of human being, every lifestyle, every climate?

If you are healthy, active, long-lived, and happy, it does kind of beg the

question of what " obesity " would mean in that context.

It is possible that people in extremely cold climates, who come of genetic lines

that have been living in that climate for a long, long time, will naturally tend

to store more body fat because it's a survival strategy. They may be " obese " by

one definition, but perfectly adapted to their environment by another. Look at

animals who live in cold climates, and how much fat they lay on over their

muscle and skeleton. Is a bear " obese " ? Look at cold water animals and fish. Is

a whale " obese " ?

Christie