Re: Raw Yoghurt

[Guest guest]

>>>>Yogurt is a result of the bacterial fermentation of milk and the

bacteria responsible for this are Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus

Thermophilus.

They give yogurt the distinctive sour, tangy taste. They are

naturally presented only on the Balkan peninsula(today's Bulgaria,

Greece, Turkey) and will mutate out of the area very fast. This is

why here (in the US) I can't use batch of my previous yogurt for a

starter but I don't have this problem in Bulgaria.

----->i'm in the US and i've never had a problem using a previous batch of

raw yogurt to innoculate a new batch.

>>>Buffalo and sheep milks are very

rich and buttery.

----->oh my mouth is watering! thanks for the lesson in yogurt making from a

bulgarian perspective!

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

Raw Yoghurt

Hello ,

I make a good yogurt from raw milk and will try to answer your

questions. I am Bulgarian, so I do know a little about this :-)

> So how do you do it then, and are we really talking about

> yoghurt here? Raw milk can certainly be clabbered by the

> same lactic bacteria used for yoghurt, but I wouldn't call

> clabber " yoghurt " .

Yes, you are correct. Clabber is not yogurt. Yogurt is a result of

the bacterial fermentation of milk and the bacteria responsible for

this are Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus.

They give yogurt the distinctive sour, tangy taste. They are

naturally presented only on the Balkan peninsula(today's Bulgaria,

Greece, Turkey) and will mutate out of the area very fast. This is

why here (in the US) I can't use batch of my previous yogurt for a

starter but I don't have this problem in Bulgaria. After short time

contamination and mutation is inevitable. Clabber is naturally

soured, thickened milk before it is separated into curds and whey.

The bacteria responsible are also lactic, but not Lactobacillus

Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus and this is why clabber

tastes different than yogurt.

>Does your product hold all of its whey

> in suspension until cut? Does a hole left in it after some

> is scooped out with a spoon still have sharp edges when you

> return to it an hour later? If so, please do detail the

> method you use.

I will describe my method below. But before this I would like to

clarify a few details. You are accustom to the commercial yogurt

sold in the US or Western Europe but probably never had traditional

Bulgarian yogurt. There are differences. The manufacturers here are

using mostly cow milk from animals being fed standardized diet (i.e.

grain, hey, etc.) Then they add stabilizers, starches, gums and gels

to improve the viscosity and the texture. Often they do concentrate

the milk by evaporation prior to fermentation or by the addition of

dried powdered milk.

The incubation temperature of yogurt is usually in the 104-113F

interval. If you choose the higher end, than Streptococcus

Thermophilus are predominant and the result is a sourer yogurt. Also

there will be some liquid on the top. This is called syneresis. If

you use the lower temperature than the Lactobacillus Bulgaricus are

abundant and the result is more sweeter, milder yogurt without

liquid on top.

The milk used also affects the consistency of yogurt. The higher the

fat level the creamier and smother the yogurt will feel in the

mouth. The higher the dry matter (milk solids) the firmer the yogurt

will be. Commercial manufacturers control the dry matter to ensure

consistency of production. The above factors depend on the breed of

the animal (i.e. in the case of cows they are higher for Jerseys

than Holsteins), the diet (is it a standardized commercial feed or a

grass which changes with the seasons) and the lactation of the

animal (i.e. is it in the beginning, max production or just before

the animal is about to go dry). My family had cow, water buffalo,

goats and sheep until 10 years ago. Buffalo and sheep milks are very

rich and buttery. But still, the consistency of the yogurt made from

them will differ during the year. In May it will be runnier. In

August, just before the sheep go dry, the yogurt will be very, very

firm. You could practically slice it with a knife. It melts in your

mouth and has a strong tangy flavor. So it is normal that your

yogurt will change during the course of the year. In the older days

Bulgarians used to make yogurt in earthenware pottery. Some of the

whey was leaking from the clay pot naturally and the resulting

yogurt was even thicker. At the present day there are only 2 or 3

places there that still sell buffalo/sheep yogurt in pottery. Most

of the yogurt sold in stores there is made from homogenized cow milk

with 2% milk fat. So with two words: Yogurt made from cow milk will

never have the consistency of buffalo/sheep milk. It will always be

runnier. And raw milk yogurt will always be runnier compared to the

one made with pasteurized because of the difference in the amount of

dry matter. If you take milk from Jerseys and make yogurt the

standard way(with heating to 180 degrees) you will have very firm

yogurt with " hole left in it after some is scooped out " . It will be

just as the " Brown Cow " brand. However if you take the same milk but

do not heat/pasteurise it will be creamier.

Another problem you can encounter when making yogurt is slime. This

means that either your culture is contaminated, your jars, or the

milk itself. Don't get me wrong. Your milk may be perfect for

drinking but it may not produce superior yogurt. As soon as the cow

is milked, bacteria will start growing. This is normal and you can't

avoid it. Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus

are very sensitive to the environment outside the Balkans and thus

the bacteria presented in milk may change the quality of yogurt.

This is why had the best results in making his yogurt on the

day of picking milk.

Here is how I make my yogurt here.

1.I have the best results when using small, pint size Mason jars. I

pour boiling water and let them stay for around 30 minutes. Put your

measuring spoon in one of the jars too. You do not need to keep them

for so long. I just don't want to burn my fingers! After the jars

are sterilized throw the water. Keep the spoon in one of the empty

jars. You do not want to contaminate it by leaving it on the

counter.

2. Put a little starter in each jar. Then stir each one a little.

Add a little cold milk and stir again with the spoon. Then add the

rest of the milk to fill the jars and lightly stir one more time. My

milk comes from the fridge and is cold. If you are farmer/have a cow

use the milk immediately after milking when it is still warm.

One 6 oz cup commercial yogurt is enough to inoculate one gallon. Be

sure to check for the expiration day. If the " live cultures " aren't

alive anymore then the milk will simply clabber. I like to use

the " Brown cow " plain brand. But must admit that also use Danon

because my local grocery store does not carry the " Brown cow " and I

can't go to the health food store every time I make yogurt. You can

also buy commercial starter. I did order some in the summer but was

disappointed. They shipped the order without using dry ice or any

other material. I live in the South and by the time my order arrived

the starter was dead.

3. Put the lids on the jars and place them in a warm environment. I

place mine in 2 or 3 stockpots and add warm water – around 100 –

110F. During the first hour I change the water 2-3 times. It will

chill fast because the milk is cold. I do not want to warm the milk

on the stove to body temperature before inoculation because every

moving in a new pot will increase the bacterial count and thus may

change the consistency of the end product (i.e. slimy yogurt). After

the first 1-1.5 h I wrap the stockpots with 4-5 plastic bags and

leave them on the counter. You can put on top of them a blanket if

desired. I leave my yogurt to incubate for 15-17 hours. I love it

when it is more sour. You can leave it for a few more hours or a few

less depending on how sour you want it. The longer it stays the more

sour will be. Then carefully take the jars from the stockpots and

move them in the fridge. Yogurt will ticker more as it stays there.

When moving the jars do not shake them. Yogurt does not like to be

disturbed. Once it is chilled you can consume.

Marieta

[Guest guest]

Marieta,

Wow thanks! That is the best yoghurt description I've ever read. It

answers a lot of questions it should be in the FAQ.

I'm curious about the heating method as it seems like a lot of work to

change the warm water and bags etc.. the method I use is to put a space

heater in a small room, wait for it to get to around 100 degrees or so

then just leave till it tastes good usually 12+ hours. I imagine " space

heaters " are not a traditional method compared to use warm water, but do

you see any disadvantage to keeping it at a steady temperature versus

letting it slowly cool using your more traditional method?

[Guest guest]

--- In , " toteva123 " <toteva123@y...>

wrote:

>

> Hello ,

>

> I make a good yogurt from raw milk and will try to answer your

> questions. I am Bulgarian, so I do know a little about this :-)

Thank you Marieta, that was a great description,

and thanks to everyone else who shared their yoghurt

experiences too!

> Yes, you are correct. Clabber is not yogurt. Yogurt is a result of

> the bacterial fermentation of milk and the bacteria responsible for

> this are Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus.

> They give yogurt the distinctive sour, tangy taste. They are

> naturally presented only on the Balkan peninsula(today's Bulgaria,

> Greece, Turkey) and will mutate out of the area very fast. This is

> why here (in the US) I can't use batch of my previous yogurt for a

> starter but I don't have this problem in Bulgaria. After short time

> contamination and mutation is inevitable.

I believe that this is a problem with kefir too. I

once decided to try some kefir grains from G.E.M.

Cultures. They never made anything that wasn't vile

tasting, no matter now many ways I varied the process.

I long suspected that the grains had been raised on

fruit juice or something like that instead of milk

and so were ruined, but I'm now beginning to think

that it's merely a matter of them being too many

" generations " out of the Caucasus. G.E.M. is supposed

to have propagated their present batch (last that I

read) from some given to them by Dominic, and thus

theirs are several decades removed from the Caucasus.

A friend of mine went back home to Ossetia for a visit

a few months ago, and if possible, he's going to bring

me back some fresh (new) kefir grains (k'abytæ).

> I will describe my method below. But before this I would like to

> clarify a few details. You are accustom to the commercial yogurt

> sold in the US or Western Europe but probably never had traditional

> Bulgarian yogurt. There are differences.

My family is of eastern european origin, so I know

what real yoghurt should taste like. I've never had

Bulgarian yoghurt, but of course the Bulgarians are

only one of the groups that traditionally makes yoghurt.

I've also had yoghurt made by Iranians, and by Uzbeks.

> The manufacturers here are

> using mostly cow milk from animals being fed standardized diet

(i.e.

> grain, hey, etc.) Then they add stabilizers, starches, gums and

gels

> to improve the viscosity and the texture. Often they do concentrate

> the milk by evaporation prior to fermentation or by the addition of

> dried powdered milk.

Yes, these are all done to copy the thickness prized in

traditional yoghurt.

> Most of the yogurt sold in stores there is made from homogenized

> cow milk with 2% milk fat. So with two words: Yogurt made from

> cow milk will never have the consistency of buffalo/sheep milk.

> It will always be runnier.

I always corrected for this by adding extra cream, for both

regular yoghurt, and when trying to make raw yoghurt, though

never as much as found succesful. Actally though, I

do make sour cream using kefir as a starter, and it uses

half milk and half cream, just as commercial sour cream does,

but I call it " sour cream " . If I use raw milk and cream, and

just go ahead and call it yoghurt, I guess I shall have my raw

yoghurt!

> And raw milk yogurt will always be runnier compared to the

> one made with pasteurized because of the difference in the

> amount of dry matter.

Yes, I've found that the yoghurt is much better if some milk

powder is dissolved into the milk before culturing.

> If you take milk from Jerseys and make yogurt the

> standard way(with heating to 180 degrees) you will have very firm

> yogurt with " hole left in it after some is scooped out " .

Yes, that was my point.

> This is why had the best results in making his yogurt on the

> day of picking milk.

Yes, it's the same with kefir. I've found freshness to be

a far more important factor in at least the _flavor_ of

kefir than the milk being organic or even raw. If the

expiration date is any more than 12 days away, the kefir

isn't very good. In fact the best tasting kefir I ever

made was from store-bought non-organic pasteurized milk,

but one that was 21 days from its expiration.

> Here is how I make my yogurt here.

We should put this description in the files section.

> I like to use the " Brown cow " plain brand.

Yes, I think " Brown Cow " brand comes closer to the taste

of traditional yoghurt than any other commercial brand I've

tasted.

[Guest guest]

Hello Suze,

> ----->i'm in the US and i've never had a problem using a previous

batch of

> raw yogurt to innoculate a new batch.

For how long? Was the flavor and consistency always as the original?

The bacteria will mutate and contamination will occure no matter

what you do. It is like the San Francisco sourdough starter. You can

take it out of Frisco but the taste will change with time. A few

years ago there was a converation about making yogurt abroad on one

of the bulgarian newsgroops. There were a few people which were able

to keep the " Bulgarian " taste for about 6 mo. This is the longest

time I heard somebody being able to use bach of the previous yogurt

for starter outside Bulgaria. In Bulgaria you can do it for years.

The only way it can get wrong is if you use hot milk and the high

temperature kills the starter. Everybody else in the newsgroop was

having contamination/mutation problems. The folks with the 6 mo

success were able somehow to get through customs with some yogurt

taken from Bulgaria. Also they made the yogurt the standard way(with

heating milk to high temperature first). When using raw milk you

have other bacteria which competes with the L. Bulgaricus and

Strept. thermophilus and keeping contamination out will be

impossible. This will change the taste and consistency of the yogurt

with time. Defects as slime, gooey-ness will appear which are never

observed in Bulgarian yogurt. Here in the South is hot and humid and

there are a lot of wild yeasts, molds, etc. I also like making

breads with biga/sourdough starter and my kitchen is full with all

these creatures so I prefer to use new starter every time. I consume

at least a gallon/week so buying 1 cup for starter is not a problem.

> >>>Buffalo and sheep milks are very

> rich and buttery.

>

> ----->oh my mouth is watering! thanks for the lesson in yogurt

making from a

> bulgarian perspective!

I forget to write about one more thing. Here in the US I always read

about the Greek/ Mediterranean diet being lowfat, low in red meat,

cheeses, etc. Hm,I wonder what we do with all the lambs. We do not

keep them for pets for sure! The most prized yogurts/cheese there

are from sheep and buffalo. I never heard about lowfat and fat free

milk/yogurt/cheese before I came to the US. The commercial

yogurt/milk sold in the stores is with 2% milk fat. However this is

done because the industrial plants need the cream to make butter.

This was never done for " health reasons " . Also you can go and buy

raw milk without problem there. I was shocked when I first encounter

this problem here.

Marieta

[Guest guest]

--- In , " toteva123 " <toteva123@y...>

wrote:

>

> The folks with the 6 mo success were able somehow to get through

> customs with some yogurt taken from Bulgaria. Also they made the

> yogurt the standard way (with heating milk to high temperature

> first).

Ah ha! So it's just as I said. Heating the milk to a high

temperature _is_ the standard way.

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

> I'm curious about the heating method as it seems like a lot of

work to

> change the warm water and bags etc..

>I imagine " space

> heaters " are not a traditional method compared to use warm water,

but do

> you see any disadvantage to keeping it at a steady temperature

versus

> letting it slowly cool using your more traditional method?

Using warm water is never done there too! Making yogurt there is

easy. But here I found that I don't have good results if I do it the

old fashioned way. In Bulgaria there is no need to sterilize the

jars and the spoon. Washing them is enough. The size of the jars

doesn't matter too. The yogurt made in the 5 gallon pot is as good

as the one in small pint jar. But for some reason these things do

matter here. Over the years I did play and found the best results

doing the things mentioned in the previous post.

Traditionally yogurt was kept warm during the incubation by using

coats made from the sheep fur. They just throw a few of them over

the pot and leave it. During the winter the pot was left near the

stove or the fireplaces. My grandma use to do it this way to her

death in '91. My mom uses blanket in the city. Use the method that

works best for you.

Marieta

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

> Ah ha! So it's just as I said. Heating the milk to a high

> temperature _is_ the standard way.

It depends how back in history we go. At the present time heating is

the standard method everywhere (Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey). The

practice of heating the milk was first start by the Turks maybe

around 150-200 years ago and gradually spread through the old

Ottoman Empire. The famous Bulgarians mentioned by Metchnikoff in

his studies were from the Rodopi mountain which lies on the border

with Greece. It is a very isolated area because life has always been

very harsh there. As late as early 1980's there were still small

villages without electricity. I remember reading that Lactobacillus

Bulgaricus is abundant on the bark of some trees there. During the

last century people used to take a piece of bark, stir the fresh

milk and on the next day it was turned into yogurt. The nature

there is still pristine – crystal air, clean streams, green

pastures. The region is also rich with a lot of herbs with medicinal

properties. The local population there has preserved a lot of the

old customs. They used to move their sheep during the summer up in

the mountains. Feta and Yogurt were made at the temporary camps and

then shipped by donkeys and horses down to the villages. Some of the

feta was then transported in the country. This practice was shut

down in the 60's as being " health hazard " .

Marieta

[Guest guest]

Hello Marieta,

I enjoyed your yoghurt directions. I want to ask you what you think

of the way I make yoghurt. I heat a quart of raw milk to 110 degrees

then I take it off the burner and follow the directions for adding

plain brown cow yoghurt as culture as it says in the NT cookbook. I

put it in a stock pot filled with water at 100 degrees and then I put

it in my oven with the light on overnight or 8 hours. It has been

perfect every time. It thickens up every time in the fridge. I am new

to making yoghurt and I am wondering what you think about fermenting

in the oven the way I do?? Also I do not sterilize my jars like you

do, I just run it through the dishwasher with some soap that is not

supposed to leave residue (spoon too). Thanks for all the info on

making yoghurt.

~Del

--- In , " toteva123 " <toteva123@y...>

wrote:

> Hello ,

>

> I make a good yogurt from raw milk and will try to answer your

> questions. I am Bulgarian, so I do know a little about this :-)

>

> > So how do you do it then, and are we really talking about

> > yoghurt here? Raw milk can certainly be clabbered by the

> > same lactic bacteria used for yoghurt, but I wouldn't call

> > clabber " yoghurt " .

> Yes, you are correct. Clabber is not yogurt. Yogurt is a result of

> the bacterial fermentation of milk and the bacteria responsible for

> this are Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus.

> They give yogurt the distinctive sour, tangy taste. They are

> naturally presented only on the Balkan peninsula(today's Bulgaria,

> Greece, Turkey) and will mutate out of the area very fast. This is

> why here (in the US) I can't use batch of my previous yogurt for a

> starter but I don't have this problem in Bulgaria. After short time

> contamination and mutation is inevitable. Clabber is naturally

> soured, thickened milk before it is separated into curds and whey.

> The bacteria responsible are also lactic, but not Lactobacillus

> Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus and this is why clabber

> tastes different than yogurt.

>

>

> >Does your product hold all of its whey

> > in suspension until cut? Does a hole left in it after some

> > is scooped out with a spoon still have sharp edges when you

> > return to it an hour later? If so, please do detail the

> > method you use.

> I will describe my method below. But before this I would like to

> clarify a few details. You are accustom to the commercial yogurt

> sold in the US or Western Europe but probably never had traditional

> Bulgarian yogurt. There are differences. The manufacturers here are

> using mostly cow milk from animals being fed standardized diet

(i.e.

> grain, hey, etc.) Then they add stabilizers, starches, gums and

gels

> to improve the viscosity and the texture. Often they do concentrate

> the milk by evaporation prior to fermentation or by the addition of

> dried powdered milk.

>

> The incubation temperature of yogurt is usually in the 104-113F

> interval. If you choose the higher end, than Streptococcus

> Thermophilus are predominant and the result is a sourer yogurt.

Also

> there will be some liquid on the top. This is called syneresis. If

> you use the lower temperature than the Lactobacillus Bulgaricus are

> abundant and the result is more sweeter, milder yogurt without

> liquid on top.

>

> The milk used also affects the consistency of yogurt. The higher

the

> fat level the creamier and smother the yogurt will feel in the

> mouth. The higher the dry matter (milk solids) the firmer the

yogurt

> will be. Commercial manufacturers control the dry matter to ensure

> consistency of production. The above factors depend on the breed of

> the animal (i.e. in the case of cows they are higher for Jerseys

> than Holsteins), the diet (is it a standardized commercial feed or

a

> grass which changes with the seasons) and the lactation of the

> animal (i.e. is it in the beginning, max production or just before

> the animal is about to go dry). My family had cow, water buffalo,

> goats and sheep until 10 years ago. Buffalo and sheep milks are

very

> rich and buttery. But still, the consistency of the yogurt made

from

> them will differ during the year. In May it will be runnier. In

> August, just before the sheep go dry, the yogurt will be very, very

> firm. You could practically slice it with a knife. It melts in your

> mouth and has a strong tangy flavor. So it is normal that your

> yogurt will change during the course of the year. In the older days

> Bulgarians used to make yogurt in earthenware pottery. Some of the

> whey was leaking from the clay pot naturally and the resulting

> yogurt was even thicker. At the present day there are only 2 or 3

> places there that still sell buffalo/sheep yogurt in pottery. Most

> of the yogurt sold in stores there is made from homogenized cow

milk

> with 2% milk fat. So with two words: Yogurt made from cow milk will

> never have the consistency of buffalo/sheep milk. It will always be

> runnier. And raw milk yogurt will always be runnier compared to the

> one made with pasteurized because of the difference in the amount

of

> dry matter. If you take milk from Jerseys and make yogurt the

> standard way(with heating to 180 degrees) you will have very firm

> yogurt with " hole left in it after some is scooped out " . It will be

> just as the " Brown Cow " brand. However if you take the same milk

but

> do not heat/pasteurise it will be creamier.

>

>

> Another problem you can encounter when making yogurt is slime. This

> means that either your culture is contaminated, your jars, or the

> milk itself. Don't get me wrong. Your milk may be perfect for

> drinking but it may not produce superior yogurt. As soon as the cow

> is milked, bacteria will start growing. This is normal and you

can't

> avoid it. Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus

> are very sensitive to the environment outside the Balkans and thus

> the bacteria presented in milk may change the quality of yogurt.

> This is why had the best results in making his yogurt on the

> day of picking milk.

>

> Here is how I make my yogurt here.

>

> 1.I have the best results when using small, pint size Mason jars. I

> pour boiling water and let them stay for around 30 minutes. Put

your

> measuring spoon in one of the jars too. You do not need to keep

them

> for so long. I just don't want to burn my fingers! After the jars

> are sterilized throw the water. Keep the spoon in one of the empty

> jars. You do not want to contaminate it by leaving it on the

> counter.

>

> 2. Put a little starter in each jar. Then stir each one a little.

> Add a little cold milk and stir again with the spoon. Then add the

> rest of the milk to fill the jars and lightly stir one more time.

My

> milk comes from the fridge and is cold. If you are farmer/have a

cow

> use the milk immediately after milking when it is still warm.

>

> One 6 oz cup commercial yogurt is enough to inoculate one gallon.

Be

> sure to check for the expiration day. If the " live cultures " aren't

> alive anymore then the milk will simply clabber. I like to use

> the " Brown cow " plain brand. But must admit that also use Danon

> because my local grocery store does not carry the " Brown cow " and I

> can't go to the health food store every time I make yogurt. You can

> also buy commercial starter. I did order some in the summer but was

> disappointed. They shipped the order without using dry ice or any

> other material. I live in the South and by the time my order

arrived

> the starter was dead.

>

> 3. Put the lids on the jars and place them in a warm environment. I

> place mine in 2 or 3 stockpots and add warm water – around 100 –

> 110F. During the first hour I change the water 2-3 times. It will

> chill fast because the milk is cold. I do not want to warm the milk

> on the stove to body temperature before inoculation because every

> moving in a new pot will increase the bacterial count and thus may

> change the consistency of the end product (i.e. slimy yogurt).

After

> the first 1-1.5 h I wrap the stockpots with 4-5 plastic bags and

> leave them on the counter. You can put on top of them a blanket if

> desired. I leave my yogurt to incubate for 15-17 hours. I love it

> when it is more sour. You can leave it for a few more hours or a

few

> less depending on how sour you want it. The longer it stays the

more

> sour will be. Then carefully take the jars from the stockpots and

> move them in the fridge. Yogurt will ticker more as it stays there.

> When moving the jars do not shake them. Yogurt does not like to be

> disturbed. Once it is chilled you can consume.

>

> Marieta