Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hello Y'all, I was wondering how toxic tonka bean absolute actually is. Is it all or mostly hype? The reason is I'm going to make my own homemade pumpkin liqueur and instead of whole spices, which would color the liquid brown, I'm going to use my spice essences. I'm going to use cinnamon CO2, nutmeg CO2, ginger CO2, clove CO2, vanilla Bourbon CO2, and I was thinking a little tonka bean absolute, for a confectionary note. However I've heard that the coumarin contained in the essence is toxic and a blood thinner. But, I also know that tonka beans have been used as flavoring for a long time, and I've even found passages online where people have used it to flavor desserts-someone mentioning a tonka bean-flavored custard comes immediately to mind. I have a 'pumpkin spice' scented blend that I've used for soaps and tonka is a prime ingredient in the odor, along with all the other spices I've mentioned, plus clary sage(that is another one I'm curious about the edibility of). I was thinking of using that blend as the base for the flavoring. ************* Hey , I can't speak to the toxicity of the absolute, but I have tinctured tonka beans at a 1:5 ratio in 50% alcohol for a flavor extract and used it in baking. Its definitely a strong flavor, it doesn't take much to overwhelm a recipe. The absolute seems to have that in common from the bit I have played around with it in fragrances. From an herbal medicine perspective, I would say that in small amounts infrequently used, and barring anyone already on blood thinners, you would probably be fine using a flavor extract for the liqueur. In fact, it was traditionally used to flavor liqueurs and tobacco. The tincture I made does have a deep brown color, but may not impart too much color at the lower amounts that would be needed to flavor a beverage. The absolute will have a higher concentration of coumarin, but you will also probably use a lot less because it is so concentrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hello Y'all, I was wondering how toxic tonka bean absolute actually is. Is it all or mostly hype? The reason is I'm going to make my own homemade pumpkin liqueur and instead of whole spices, which would color the liquid brown, I'm going to use my spice essences. I'm going to use cinnamon CO2, nutmeg CO2, ginger CO2, clove CO2, vanilla Bourbon CO2, and I was thinking a little tonka bean absolute, for a confectionary note. However I've heard that the coumarin contained in the essence is toxic and a blood thinner. But, I also know that tonka beans have been used as flavoring for a long time, and I've even found passages online where people have used it to flavor desserts-someone mentioning a tonka bean-flavored custard comes immediately to mind. I have a 'pumpkin spice' scented blend that I've used for soaps and tonka is a prime ingredient in the odor, along with all the other spices I've mentioned, plus clary sage(that is another one I'm curious about the edibility of). I was thinking of using that blend as the base for the flavoring. ************* Hey , I can't speak to the toxicity of the absolute, but I have tinctured tonka beans at a 1:5 ratio in 50% alcohol for a flavor extract and used it in baking. Its definitely a strong flavor, it doesn't take much to overwhelm a recipe. The absolute seems to have that in common from the bit I have played around with it in fragrances. From an herbal medicine perspective, I would say that in small amounts infrequently used, and barring anyone already on blood thinners, you would probably be fine using a flavor extract for the liqueur. In fact, it was traditionally used to flavor liqueurs and tobacco. The tincture I made does have a deep brown color, but may not impart too much color at the lower amounts that would be needed to flavor a beverage. The absolute will have a higher concentration of coumarin, but you will also probably use a lot less because it is so concentrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I wouldn't is the short answer Tonka has been used as a hidden vanilla substitute in the past which is why it is now known to be toxic. Clary sage gives me headaches just sniffing it, not sure about it's normal effects on the body. I haven't come across it outside of aromatherapy. Ambrosia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 > I wouldn't is the short answer > Tonka has been used as a hidden vanilla substitute in the past which is why it is now known to be toxic. > Clary sage gives me headaches just sniffing it, not sure about it's normal effects on the body. I haven't come across it outside of aromatherapy. Tonka beans are used to add flavor to pipe tobacco as well as Mexican " vanilla " extract. The FDA bans all food containing coumarin as it considers it to be an adulterant and " possibly " a health hazard: http://www.fda.gov/forconsumers/consumerupdates/ucm048613.htm But according to Dr. , natural coumarin is neither a blood thinner or even toxic (http://yarchive.net/med/warfarin.html). In the early 20th century, red clover was imported to feed cattle where it was too dry or rocky to grow other feed. Eventually some calves developed anemia and it was found that they were hemorrhaging internally. It was found that the clover was infested with a fungus. The fungus metabolized the coumarin from the red clover into dicoumarol. Dicoumarol interferes with the vitamin-K activation of blood clotting, not the coumarin itself. More research was done and dicoumarol was patented as a blood thinner in 1941. But the potency was difficult to control, so a synthetic version was developed at Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation ( " WARF " ); hence the name. During the research tests, it was found to kill rats by inducing hemorrhaging. In addition to dissolving blood clots, it is still used today for rodent control. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 > > In the early 20th century, red clover was imported to feed cattle where it > was too dry or rocky to grow other feed. Eventually some calves developed > anemia and it was found that they were hemorrhaging internally. It was found > that the clover was infested with a fungus. The fungus metabolized the > coumarin from the red clover into dicoumarol. Dicoumarol interferes with the > vitamin-K activation of blood clotting, not the coumarin itself. > > More research was done and dicoumarol was patented as a blood thinner in > 1941. But the potency was difficult to control, so a synthetic version was > developed at Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation ( " WARF " ); hence the name. > During the research tests, it was found to kill rats by inducing > hemorrhaging. In addition to dissolving blood clots, it is still used today > for rodent control. > Hi Cat, Folks..... That is why an antidote for warfarin poisoning is administration of vitamin K....Rats apparently very little ability to metabolize/synthesize vitamin K.....Hence they hemorrhage..... An interesting note....For folks on warfarin or coumadin (related) as a blood therapy, they must be attentive to using supplements containing Vitamin K, as it can reduce the anti clotting effect of the medication...Warfarin et al do not actually " thin " the blood....They reduce the potential of clot formation...But everyone, even the Docs, call them blood thinners....<G>.....! Care... -- W. Bourbonais L'Hermite Aromatique A.J.P. (GIA) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 ________________________________  Hey ,  I can't speak to the toxicity of the absolute, but I have tinctured tonka beans at a 1:5 ratio in 50% alcohol for a flavor extract and used it in baking. Its definitely a strong flavor, it doesn't take much to overwhelm a recipe. The absolute seems to have that in common from the bit I have played around with it in fragrances.  From an herbal medicine perspective, I would say that in small amounts infrequently used, and barring anyone already on blood thinners, you would probably be fine using a flavor extract for the liqueur. In fact, it was traditionally used to flavor liqueurs and tobacco. The tincture I made does have a deep brown color, but may not impart too much color at the lower amounts that would be needed to flavor a beverage. The absolute will have a higher concentration of coumarin, but you will also probably use a lot less because it is so concentrated.  Those were my thoughts exactly. It's not like I'm going to be consuming mass quantities of the liqueur, straight out of the bottle, everyday. I'm going to pre-mix the essences in a blend, then add that to the liqueur, I'm going to start with three drops at first, I have 750ml of rum, and I'm going to start with 1 cup of maple syrup to sweeten it. I discovered that ginger CO2 has a sort of soapy flavor, so I'm going to have to be careful with that one. I did research on clary sage, and apparently it is on the list of Generally Recognized As Safe list. I thought I read somewhere that clary sage is used to flavor wines and liqueurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 >>Those were my thoughts exactly. It's not like I'm going to be consuming mass quantities of the liqueur, straight out of the bottle, everyday. I'm going to pre-mix the essences in a blend, then add that to the liqueur, I'm going to start with three drops at first, I have 750ml of rum, and I'm going to start with 1 cup of maple syrup to sweeten it. I discovered that ginger CO2 has a sort of soapy flavor, so I'm going to have to be careful with that one. Hi : Speaking from my own experience " tincturing " liqueurs and flavorings (strange how it goes hand in hand with perfumery...), try using freshly-peeled and chopped ginger root in a separate tincture, then add small amounts of that along with your essences to the rum. It might add a slight yellowish tinge to the final product, but it definitely won't be brown. Have you checked out Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor Ingredients? It has formulas for some popular liqueur flavorings (Chatreuse, Benedictine, etc.). Interesting stuff! Good luck! Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 ________________________________ Hi : Speaking from my own experience " tincturing " liqueurs and flavorings (strange how it goes hand in hand with perfumery...), try using freshly-peeled and chopped ginger root in a separate tincture, then add small amounts of that along with your essences to the rum. It might add a slight yellowish tinge to the final product, but it definitely won't be brown. Have you checked out Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor Ingredients? It has formulas for some popular liqueur flavorings (Chatreuse, Benedictine, etc.). Interesting stuff! Good luck! Cat I haven't checked it out-but I'm going to! Yes, it totally goes hand in hand. I've used my dried fruit tinctures(made with organic grape alcohol) as flavorings as well.  And I've been reading up on using essences in cooking-I have Mandy Aftel's Aroma, The Complete Book of Essential Oils and Aromatherapy by Ann Worwood has recipes using essential oils, and Anya has some links to sites with recipes and ideas on her edible oils page on her website. I did a bit of experimenting with a shot of vodka, the tiniest smear of essences on my fingers and maple syrup. I think what I'm really going to be careful with is actually the maple syrup! Wow, that's sweet! And I'm glad when it got diluted it turned a shade of gold. I was concerned it might 'amberize " the shade of the liqueur. The anatto seeds did add some flavor though. I don't know if I'm going to use them. I might just stick with the coloring from the pumpkin and support it with paprika. The essences seem to be fine, even the ginger, actually I only got the lightest hint of them. I did use orange-flavored vodka, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ok Question here using Dried fruit in a tincture? Can you give me directions on how you did this pretty please?? I have a ton of dried fruit here at the house that I did this summer. Are you thinking of or doing the maple syrup in alcohol like I've read honey being used? Thank you Willow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 > Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor Ingredients Thank you for the heads up on this book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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