Re: Sauerkraut question? - botulism

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 20:00:25 -0700

Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> wrote:

Also

>it helps to keep in mind that there are maybe, oh, 50 cases

>of botulism a year (it might be less) and they seem

>to be from unsalted home canned boiled stuff, rotting beached whales,

>fermented fish, and garlic in oil. Botulism doesn't seem

>to compete well with other bacteria, it needs an

>almost-sterile environment to really take hold.

>

>-- Heidi

Could someone bring me up to date as to why garlic in oil is a source of

possible botulism? I seem to remember a thread about it on this list or

maybe Beyond Price.

Also what is the issue with fermented fish? lack of salt?

The Secret of Health

Stay away from the doctor, says Hein, MD.

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[Guest guest]

>Could someone bring me up to date as to why garlic in oil is a source of

>possible botulism? I seem to remember a thread about it on this list or

>maybe Beyond Price.

>

>Also what is the issue with fermented fish? lack of salt?

>

>

Probably the problem with both of them is lack of:

- salt

- lactobacilli

- acid

Tomatoes in oil ferment, but they turn into cured

tomatoes. Fish in kimchi turn into pickled fish.

But garlic has no salt, and it is fairly antibiotic

and doesn't have it's own bacterial colonies

(as cabbage does), and it isn't acid. So it's perfect

for botulism.

Botulism bacteria live in the soil, so there are likely

to be some on the garlic.

Fish buried in pits though don't generally get

botulism. Maybe because of competing microorganisms

in the soil. The fish with botulism were made in

plastic, probably with no salt or vinegar or an innoculant?

I'm still not clear on fish: fish sauce is made by basically

letting fish deteriorate in a jar, but maybe there is salt involved.

I have a recipe from the Roman days, and they set the pot

out in the sun, full of fish guts, stirring daily. Maybe in

that case there is enough air that botulism can't take hold.

There was also a case of a dead whale on a beach,

and in that case it was though that some botulism

bacteria from the beach infected the blubber.

Anyway, botulism bacteria don't like salt, acid, other

bacteria (esp. lactobacilli) or oxygen.

-- Heidi