The illusory 20 second rep

[Guest guest]

I feel like I managed to get myself in the position of the 20 second

rep advocate. Obviously to some degree my own fault.

Let me simply state for once and for all. I have been in the gym

coaching countless REAL people over the years and while standing

right there next to the lat pulldown right in front of them having

given a 6 hour powerpoint presentation at 6 am no less on the NEED

to do repetitions in an controlled and safe fashion using 4-10

seconds for + and - and then had them sign a 45 page legal brief so

as to confirm their understanding of said presentation and then only

to watch them to 5 repetitions in under 1.3 seconds.

When this is considered to have happened right in front of my nose

by a person who has paid me to wake their a## up at 5:30am I must

consider that when I give advice to someone who I have no idea what

level their skills or development and they are not only not in front

of me but in fact hundreds or thousands of miles away OVER

EMPHASIZING slow controlled movements is necessary.

There is ZERO documented risk for superslow 20 second reps. The

studies on blood pressure show its only an issue if one is holding

their breath. With this in mind I know absolutely that people by

their own inclinations will INCREASE their rep speed ALL on their

own. Virtually nobody will do 20 second reps for any length of time

and if they do it will bring them no harm. So while I have no

problem with a super slow rep I'm not saying their optimal either.

I'm simply expecting that the people on this group are likely

similar to the majority of the people I've worked with over the

years and they will insist either consciously or sub consciously to

find their own cadence. As a matter of fact the people on this

group generally are far more insistent on " finding their own way "

than the average mainstream person I am virtually guaranteed that

they will find their own cadence. What I insure is that their own

cadence will not be too fast when they are coming down from a 10

second or 20 second rep. It would also be good to note that I did

NOT say that every person should use a 20 second rep I simply said

their safe.

In addition to demonstrate that the vast majority will find their

own cadence even the Super Slow Gurus know this which is why they

insist that all workouts they train are done one on one in a

clinical setting because most folks will NOT go to a 20 second rep.

So again while I still say its fine if someone wants to do it.

Virtually no one will and if they do it will be for a few very safe

workouts at most.

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I never understood you to be advocating SS, and I believe that I fully

understand what you are saying now. And I am NOT contradicting you in full and

haven't been trying to-- your point is basically valid, IMO.

Now I have ZERO evidence in terms of controlled studies about this and am in

no way claiming that there is " documented evidence " to support my position,

and I am NOT presenting this view as diametrically opposed to yours, which it

isn't, but more as a caveat to an otherwise solid position, and I am also NOT

questioning the fact that you obviously have lots more experience than me in

this field.

I am simply making this point based on LOGIC alone, fed by my personal

experience.

As you said before, SS is usually done on machines. The example you just

gave with the lat pulldown fits into that category. But previous to this

discussion we'd been discussing the value of free-weights as opposed to machines

and

particularly the value of compound full-body movements.

Squats are a big enough movement that it would be fully impossible for

someone to do a rep in one second or less. I suspect it would take me or other

people a minimum of four seconds to do a rep, and perhaps as many as 8 seconds.

But I think your advice of 10 seconds " minimum, " which was your original

cadence recomendation, is not good advice for this exercise. If your using

heavy

weight, your goal is to get the weight up. If this isn't REALLY HARD, you

probably aren't getting nearly the benefit you could from it. In order to get

the

weight up, you need intense psychological strength and you need to summon all

your power. You can't possibly do this simultaneously with deliberately

stretching the rep duration. If you push it up as fast as you possibly can, the

whole rep with take six seconds probably, which isn't exactly " ballistic. " If

you don't, you're going risk losing your will power. Further, you risk

fatiguing in the middle of your rep, which is quite OBVIOUSLY dangerous.

I don't need to cite any studies about this, it should be obvious to anyone

that fatiguing in the middle of your rep is dangerous when you have twice your

weight on your back. (or less). Do you not agree?

That there is no documented evidence is sort of irrelevant because slow

movements have mostly been studied with machines, I gather (from what you've

said),

and anyone who tries superslowing 80-90% of their max on the squat is in my

view just asking to get hurt.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Thanks for clearing it up. I think I understand your point more clearly now

and we're basically in agreement.

Chris

[Guest guest]

your point is basically valid, IMO.

=======I'm glad you're giving your opinion as opposed to someone

elses. ;-)

>

> Now I have ZERO evidence in terms of controlled studies about this

and am in

> no way claiming that there is " documented evidence " to support my

position,

======== you don't have to this isn't a debate club or court

of law or anything of the sort. I simply was opposed to making a

blanket xyz ss reps are completely unsafe. Such a grandiose claim

you'd think would have some supportive info. As you've observed I'm

not an ss proponent and am not intimately familiar with their

research however I do know that I have read at least a dozen

reasonable papers over the year that at least puts their perspective

in the safe category. They'd like it to be in the BEST category but

their research at least demonstrates a certain level of safety which

is all I have claimed to date.

> and I am NOT presenting this view as diametrically opposed to

yours, which it

> isn't, but more as a caveat to an otherwise solid position, and I

am also NOT

> questioning the fact that you obviously have lots more experience

than me in

> this field.

>

> I am simply making this point based on LOGIC alone, fed by my

personal

> experience.

===========Excellent I would love some logic with a side of pe.

>

> As you said before, SS is usually done on machines. The example

you just

> gave with the lat pulldown fits into that category. But previous

to this

> discussion we'd been discussing the value of free-weights as

opposed to machines and

> particularly the value of compound full-body movements.

>

> Squats are a big enough movement that it would be fully impossible

for

> someone to do a rep in one second or less. I suspect it would

take me or other

> people a minimum of four seconds to do a rep, and perhaps as many

as 8 seconds.

=========== I would agree and add that a 2 second + IMO is way to

fast.

> But I think your advice of 10 seconds " minimum, " which was your

original

> cadence recomendation, is not good advice for this exercise. If

your using heavy

> weight, your goal is to get the weight up. If this isn't REALLY

HARD, you

> probably aren't getting nearly the benefit you could from it. In

order to get the

> weight up, you need intense psychological strength and you need to

summon all

> your power. You can't possibly do this simultaneously with

deliberately

> stretching the rep duration. If you push it up as fast as you

possibly can, the

> whole rep with take six seconds probably, which isn't

exactly " ballistic. " If

> you don't, you're going risk losing your will power. Further, you

risk

> fatiguing in the middle of your rep, which is quite OBVIOUSLY

dangerous.

===============I agree with you 100%. What you are stating

here clearly demonstrates my point about OVERstating the slowness of

the rep KNOWING full well that EVERYONE or NEAR everyone will NOT do

their rep that slow. Either the weight is so heavy they can't

possibly move it any faster and they do wind up with a 10 or 15

second rep which in my mind is NOT artificially stretched or the

weight will be a bit light and the rep will wind up substantially

shorter. Also keep in mind that the people I gave this advice to

are NOT as experience nor as strong as you and will NOT be under

load at the same level of intensity as you any time soon.

Absolutely what you say is very much applicable to someone who is A)

well trained or has someone on hand monitoring intensity of load

and time under load. For the type of trainee my advice was given to

I have simply found OVERstating the cadence works to their advantage

and as I've said their experience will find its own effective

cadence. I really think it unrealistic to believe that someone

could train over any length of time and religiously adhere to super

long stretched out reps. I agree with your statements 100%.

>

> I don't need to cite any studies about this, it should be obvious

to anyone

> that fatiguing in the middle of your rep is dangerous when you

have twice your

> weight on your back. (or less). Do you not agree?

=============I do agree. See details above.

>

> That there is no documented evidence is sort of irrelevant because

slow

> movements have mostly been studied with machines, I gather (from

what you've said),

> and anyone who tries superslowing 80-90% of their max on the squat

is in my

> view just asking to get hurt.

===========Again I agree 100%. However if you consider the rate of

speed that type load moves anyway its a pretty slow rep as it is.

There is no need to instruct hey move that 400 pounds on your

shoulders slow! Keep in mind the likelyhood of someone just

begining these types of lifts will NOT even have a clue what their

1RM is so they'll have lots of practice and experimenting to do and

during this time I feel it imperative that those movements are very

slow and controlled.

I wish there was a way that we could get say 5 people who read this

thread who are going to start lifting this way and we could video

them in the gym in their first workout. I'd be willing to bet

whatever makes you uncomfortable that NONE of them would even come

close to a 10-20 second rep. I've seen this so many times I'd

guarantee it. THe only ones who might get it this slow would be an

experienced lifter. Again this was the genesis of my overstating

the cadence.

You are right chris the practicality of squatting a 85% 1RM is not

practical at all however consider a rookie squatting 40% of their

1RM I'd much rather see that super slow than super fast. That's

pretty much what it comes down to.

DMM

>

> Chris

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Actually I think its thank you for clearing it up ;-) LOL

DMM

> Mike,

>

> Thanks for clearing it up. I think I understand your point more

clearly now

> and we're basically in agreement.

>

> Chris

>

>

>