Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 In a message dated 11/2/03 10:56:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, nellibell2@... writes: > I noticed a few posts back about floride in water being poisonous. It > leads me to wonder, my granddaughters pediatrician wants her to take > floride pills. Are these too poisonous to her? thanks Fluoride isn't poisonous per se, but it is a trace element needed in trace quantities and like any other trace element if you have large amounts of it it will cause problems. What is the REASON the pediatrician is advocating fluoride supplements? Your granddaughter could end up with fluorosis of the teeth from taking fluoride supplements, which is a nasty, ugly, condition, where your teeth basically look rotten and it is quite apparent to everyone around you in which case she wouldn't appreciate having taken the fluoride pills when she gets older. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 In a message dated 11/3/03 9:35:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, toragua@... writes: > I'm not aware of any study (I've read a large number of them) that has > demonstrated a positive effect of fluoride, where application was not > topical (i.e. in toothpaste). , None of this conflicts with anything I said... are you sure the same thing wouldn't be happening with comparable intakes of other trace elements... say iodine? Sea food is very high in fluoride as is unrefined sea salt and in fact fluoride exists in higher concentrations than iodine in the ocean. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 > Fluoride isn't poisonous per se, but it is a trace element needed in trace > quantities and like any other trace element if you have large amounts of it it > will cause problems. Well, whatever your definition of large is. The amounts in fluorinated water (and food made with it) are quite likely poisonous (especially since fluoride tends to accumulate). There is a pretty nice web site with lots of links and references: http://www.fluoridealert.org/. http://www.fluoridealert.com/ presents the pro fluoride side. Some quotes from http://www.fluoridation.com/skeletal.htm: <<<< What is the minimum intake of fluoride (F) which causes skeletal fluorosis, and how long is it before the onset of this disease? Kaj Roholm's 1937 study of industrial fluorosis showed that phases of skeletal fluorosis could occur, with an F intake of 0.2-0.35 mg/kg of body weight/day, after 2 yrs and 5 months for phase one; 4 yrs and 10 months for phase two and 11 yrs and 2 months for phase three (crippling skeletal fluorosis).1 Descriptions of the symptoms and range of F in bone ash for each clinical phase of skeletal fluorosis follow: * Phase 1: sporadic pain; stiffness of joints; osteosclerosis of pelvis and vertebral column (6,000-7,000 ppm F in bone ash). * Phase 2: chronic joint pain; arthritic symptoms; slight calcification of ligaments; increased osteosclerosis/cancellous bones; with/without osteoporosis of long bones (7,500-9,000 ppm F in bone ash). * Phase 3: Crippling Skeletal Fluorosis: limitation of joint movement; calcification of ligaments/neck and vertebral column; crippling deformities of spine and major joints; muscle wasting; neurological defects/ compression of spinal cord (more than 8,400 ppm F in bone ash). >>>> <<<< Extrapolating from Roholm's original figures, it follows that for a 100 lb person, at less than 2.5 mg/day fluoride intake, stage 1 of SF can occur within 10 years. At this same dosage rate, stage 2 of SF can occur after 19 years and crippling skeletal fluorosis after 45 years. There is evidence that some people are ingesting at least 5 mg/day, in which case the stages of skeletal fluorosis can occur after 5, 10 and 23 years, respectively. >>>> Phase 1 and 2 may be diagnosed as arthritis. It's not clear, how many arthritis cases are in fact fluorosis. There is speculation that fluoride is causes lots of other problems as well but most of the research has been on animals, not humans. IIRC, about 66% of the US are fluorinated and pretty much all processed foods (and drinks) contains quite a bit of fluoride (they use fluorinated water and flouride is concentrated by the processing). It's very common to exceed the levels that ADA (pro fluoride guys) considers safe: http://www.fluoridealert.com/public/topics/fluoride/facts/tables.asp#table2 (I read an analysis of average fluoride consumption for SAD sometime back, but don't recall where that was.) I'm not aware of any study (I've read a large number of them) that has demonstrated a positive effect of fluoride, where application was not topical (i.e. in toothpaste). -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 In a message dated 11/4/03 3:51:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, toragua@... writes: > I don't disagree with you that other trace elements are toxic in > excess. I wanted to make clear that there is very likely no benefit > whatsoever with a fluoride supplement, while at the same it is quite > dangerous. That is what I said. > IMO, reading your post, fluoride came across as too harmless How is that? Because I said it's not a " poison " ? > >Sea food is very high in fluoride as is unrefined sea salt > > Sea salt has very little: > <A HREF= " http://www.celtic-seasalt.com/celseasalan.html " >http://www.celtic-seasalt.\ com/celseasalan.html</A> Very little compared to what? Iodine isn't on that table, probably because there is so little compared to fluoride. According to the sonian information, seawater contains 3 times as much fluoride as iodine. Given that folks recommend consuming seafood for the iodine, implying that it is a significant source of iodine, clearly it is a significant source of fluoride, if there is three times as much. Also, clearly, if the body must receive significant fluoride in order to acquire adequate iodine, than fluoride is no more a poison than iodine. > > >and in fact > >fluoride exists in higher concentrations than iodine in the ocean. > > But iodine is toxic at much lower dosages than fluoride (probably at > around .75 - 1 mg long term). Exactly. Fluoride isn't a poison per se, but problems are attributable to toxic effects at overdose levels like any other trace element. That's all I was saying. > There must be some protective factor in sea food since some (i.e. > shell fish) does contain fluoride amounts that result in a much higher > intake than what has been shown to cause fluorosis. AFAIK, fluorosis > has not been demonstrated as a result of seafood consumption. > > It does play a significant role, in form fluoride is ingested (i.e. > calcium fluoride is a lot less soluble than sodium fluoride). That's true. BUT, CaF is normally accumulated in the skeletal system in trace amounts in humans, and I have no idea what the mechanism. I wonder if it can be absorbed into the bone matrix without dissociating? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 > In a message dated 11/3/03 9:35:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, > toragua@y... writes: > > > I'm not aware of any study (I've read a large number of them) that has > > demonstrated a positive effect of fluoride, where application was not > > topical (i.e. in toothpaste). > > , > > None of this conflicts with anything I said... are you sure the same thing > wouldn't be happening with comparable intakes of other trace elements... say > iodine? I don't disagree with you that other trace elements are toxic in excess. I wanted to make clear that there is very likely no benefit whatsoever with a fluoride supplement, while at the same it is quite dangerous. IMO, reading your post, fluoride came across as too harmless. > Sea food is very high in fluoride as is unrefined sea salt Sea salt has very little: http://www.celtic-seasalt.com/celseasalan.html > and in fact > fluoride exists in higher concentrations than iodine in the ocean. But iodine is toxic at much lower dosages than fluoride (probably at around .75 - 1 mg long term). There must be some protective factor in sea food since some (i.e. shell fish) does contain fluoride amounts that result in a much higher intake than what has been shown to cause fluorosis. AFAIK, fluorosis has not been demonstrated as a result of seafood consumption. It does play a significant role, in form fluoride is ingested (i.e. calcium fluoride is a lot less soluble than sodium fluoride). -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 a tube of flouride toothpaste will kill a 25 pound child if ingested all at once... elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 --- In , " Elaine " <itchyink@s...> wrote: > a tube of flouride toothpaste will kill a 25 pound child if ingested all at > once... > elaine Thanks for the interesting factoids in this thread. Does anyone have any CDC figures of how many children died in 2002 from eating toothpaste? Just curious. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 --- In , " tornadoalleyok " <tornadoalleyok@...> wrote: > > Can anyone steer me to some good articles regarding > " why not to use " floride in drinking water/dental care?? > I need to forward them to my daughter. She mentioned > grandson who is having dental problems (4 years old) > getting floride treatments. I freaked!!! Avoiding fluoride is a pain. I try to drink spring or mineral water, but when I out with others I don't make a big deal about it to avoid seeming difficult. I don't avoid fluoride in my shower. Here is a long document by the IAOMT about fluoride: http://www.iaomt.org/articles/files/files196/IAOMT%20Fluoridation%20Position.pdf The WAPF has two articles here http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 http://www.fluoridealert.org/50-reasons.htm The Fluoride Deception (Interview With Bryson) <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7319752042352089988 & q=fluoride & ei=prgKS\ ILfHIumrQLXveitBA> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 8:13 PM, jeremyfox <jeremytfox@...> wrote: > > > > > Can anyone steer me to some good articles regarding > > " why not to use " floride in drinking water/dental care?? > > I need to forward them to my daughter. She mentioned > > grandson who is having dental problems (4 years old) > > getting floride treatments. I freaked!!! > > Avoiding fluoride is a pain. I try to drink spring or mineral water, but > when I out with others I > don't make a big deal about it to avoid seeming difficult. I don't avoid > fluoride in my shower. > Here is a long document by the IAOMT about fluoride: > > > http://www.iaomt.org/articles/files/files196/IAOMT%20Fluoridation%20Position.pdf > > The WAPF has two articles here > > http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/index.html > > > > > -- Rashad Tatum ---- " [W]e shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of Nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, Sir, is not to the strong alone. It is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. " - Henry on the fight for independence " The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people. " Freedom Under Siege, 1987 by Ron " I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale. " - Jefferson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 There is a great lecture on the WAPF site (downloadable mp3 from last year's conference). It's called Why You Should Protect Your Children From Fluoride -- or something to that effect. The information she has is really good. I think it's $13 to download the mp3. Ann Marie On Apr 16, 2008, at 5:58 PM, tornadoalleyok wrote: > Can anyone steer me to some good articles regarding > " why not to use " floride in drinking water/dental care?? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2008 Report Share Posted April 20, 2008 Fluoride can stain the teeth, etc. you can read about it here: www.fluorideaction.net You can also share with her the following articles from the California Dental Assoc. on the safety and effectiveness of using iodine treatments instead of fluoride for early childhood caries. I'll have to look them up and send you the message numbers! > > Can anyone steer me to some good articles regarding > " why not to use " floride in drinking water/dental care?? > I need to forward them to my daughter. She mentioned > grandson who is having dental problems (4 years old) > getting floride treatments. I freaked!!! > > Thanks, > Kay B. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2008 Report Share Posted April 20, 2008 Kay, > Can anyone steer me to some good articles regarding > " why not to use " floride in drinking water/dental care?? > I need to forward them to my daughter. She mentioned > grandson who is having dental problems (4 years old) > getting floride treatments. I freaked!!! Phyllis Mulenix gave a great lecture at the last Wise Traditions conference put on by WAPF on this subject. Parts of it were technical but most of it was very accessible, and it had some new research in it. The CDs are probably available to buy online and there is probably a link on the WAPF site, or else you could find it by Googling I'm sure. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2008 Report Share Posted April 20, 2008 http://www.fluoridealert.org/pmullenix.htm > > Kay, > > > Can anyone steer me to some good articles regarding > > " why not to use " floride in drinking water/dental care?? > > I need to forward them to my daughter. She mentioned > > grandson who is having dental problems (4 years old) > > getting floride treatments. I freaked!!! > > Phyllis Mulenix gave a great lecture at the last Wise Traditions > conference put on by WAPF on this subject. Parts of it were technical > but most of it was very accessible, and it had some new research in > it. The CDs are probably available to buy online and there is > probably a link on the WAPF site, or else you could find it by > Googling I'm sure. > > Chris > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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