Bench Press: Thumbed vs Thumbless Grip

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff wrote::

<As someone else pointed out, the powerlifting rules generally prohibit the

use of the thumbless grip, so this discussion is irrelevant with respect to

competitive lifting. According to your points above, all those exceptionally

powerful bench pressers who hold world records must then be lifting

incorrectly and far below their potentials. >

Dmitry Voronov wrote:

<<I'm sorry I don't follow your logic. All those exceptionally powerful bench

pressers who hold world records must then be lifting with their wrists

vertical and not cocked back.>>

*** No logic was involved here. I simply stated the fact that the laws of

powerlifting (at least those of the IPF) forbid use of thumbless grip and

hence all bench press records have been achieved with what you describe as a

technically deficient and inefficient grip. You can download a copy of the

IPF Rules from this site so that you can check these facts for yourself:

http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/IPF_rulebook.pdf

Whatever these world record holders are doing, they must be doing something a

lot better than you or I, otherwise our names would be dominating the world

bench press ratings. Right?

Dmitry Voronov wrote:

<As for your second message, this again requires no studies or FBD's but a

bit of common sense, a stick, and one hand. I don't know what kind of studies

you are talking about but I suspect they were done with amateurs (and don't

say they were done with elite powerlifters of the time because I've seen

pictures going as far back as Kazmaier and Hedlund and they hold the bar as

I'm about to describe). If you cock the wrist back with a thumb grip then

indeed there is no significant difference in wrist angle. But the difference

in poundage will be. Not only will the transfer of force be " softer " from the

elbow to the bar (the initial pulse being absorbed by the wrist) but the

effectiveness of your triceps will be night and day (I have several ideas why

but I'm not entirely sure which is right so I won't say - it was much better

explained in one of his articles by Dave Tate).

Mel Siff:

*** Dave Tate does not refer to the thumbless grip in powerlifting

competition, because he is fully aware that one is not permitted to lift like

that.

You are once again providing as a sole " proof " your dedicated reliance on

your own " common sense " , which has let you down time and time again in our

earlier discussions when it comes to any biomechanical analysis of lifting

methods. Your comment on transfer of force being " softer " is yet another

example of the errors of such thinking. Studies have shown that the wrist and

other joints cannot be considered to be " soft " or resilient, because the

mechanical properties of the collagenous tissues involved display a very

high stiffness. Moreover, if the transfer were " softer " , this would imply

loss of energy being transferred from one part of the kinetic chain to

another.

Moreover, there is no " pulse " or pulsation when you first take the load on

the wrists - you are possibly referring to an impulse imposed on the upper

extremities at that stage. Even then, that would be incorrect, because an

" impulse " biomechanically refers to a load which is imposed very rapidly for

a very brief instant (Impulse = F*delta t).]

Dmitry Voronov:

<As for visual explanations, grab a stick of some sort, even a pencil will

do. Put it across your palm so it's parallel to the knuckle line. Now close

your fist, hold your forearm vertically and turn your wrist so you can see

the palm from the front and the side (basically with the thumb as close to

you as possible). Look at the outside of your palm - the pinky side. In order

for the stick not to slide down as it gets heavy, you have to extend your

wrist back until the angle is sufficient. Do so until you feel it would be

safely supported. Now turn your wrist sideways and look at the angle. Notice

how much the forearm needs to be tilted forward in order to keep the stick

over the elbow.

Now on the pinky side of the palm, lower the stick until it lies across the

lower third of your palm. Notice that the stick is already almost entirely

supported. You may only need to extend your wrist back a tiny bit. Now turn

the wrist sideways and look at the angle. If it's not obvious at this

point...well, then forget it.>

Mel Siff:

***As I stated in my previous letter you seem to be basing your analysis of

technique on your personal experience and interpretation rather than on

general application of the methods of mechanics. This little visualisation

offers no information whatsoever about torques, muscle tensions, joint

angles, pressure distribution and forces involved. This " analysis " does not

prove or disprove anything - and it certainly does not validate your belief

that one can produce more force with greater efficiency and safety using the

thumbless grip compared with the thumbed grip.

Dmitry Voronov:

<The only disadvantage this type of grip has is it makes it very unnatural to

tuck one's elbows. I asked Ed Coan about this at the SWIS and he said it's

just something you have to grind through (you only do it for a few seconds)

and to just pre-rotate the arms before liftoff. Solid wrist wraps are a must

here. Plus with a competition width grip, it is much easier because you don't

need to/can't tuck your elbows that much.>

*** Are you trying to agree with me that the comfort afforded some folk by

use of the thumbless grip is far more a matter of forearm rotation than angle

of wrist extension? Are you also stating that the thumbed grip is not all

that uncomfortable if you use a wider hand spacing?

So far, all the " proof " that you have provided is opinion and " common sense " ,

which is perfectly acceptable iff ( " if and only if " ) you back it up with

valid theory and/or research. You have provided no such evidence, so what

you have offered as yet remains conjecture and hypothesis. You have also

failed to comment on my findings about the thumbless grip having minimal

effect on wrist stress, but that this grip may provide greater comfort by

merit of greater freedom of forearm rotation.

You cannot simply make counter-arguments go away by proclaiming: " If it's

not obvious at this point...well, then forget it. " Valid arguments involve

proof, not proclamations.

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/