Re: feeling concerned about CR

[Guest guest]

>Please please please nourish your bodies. A nourished body is

>free to lead a healthy spiritual life. The spiritual " high " that

>comes from abusing and denying the body is a false one.

Amen! I don't know anything about CR so I have no idea if self-denial is

part of the aim of CR in general or maybe it tends to attract people who

have a self-denial mindset. But having been steeped in the vegetarian

mindset and in the vegetarian community for many years, I think you're

right on about that.

There are many Buddhist monks in parts of Asia who subsist on rice and

vegetables and are known for being physically frail. They make that choice,

although it seems a contradiction to me. Personally, it doesn't make sense

that one aspect of a person could flourish at the expense of any other

aspect. In other words, spiritual health doesn't conflict with physical

health where it comes to a choice between one or the other. Just doesn't

make sense to me.

I have a problem especially with people who are close to me who insist on

vegetarianism for spiritual reasons, but I know I can't interfere. I know

how non-negotiable this was for me for many years, and what a personal,

internal process it took for me to change that.

-

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/27/03 4:51:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> One thing I do find interesting...is that the more I read about

> nutrition the more it's become a question of what NOT to eat rather

> than what TO eat.

>

This is interesting, because I'm finding the exact opposite.

Chris

[Guest guest]

-

Yup. I think CR is founded on misplaced idealism, not sound logic or science.

>but is anyone else

>disturbed and worried by the theme of extreme self-denial when

>it comes to food and sleep?

-

[Guest guest]

>

> I joined this site because I finally switched my focus from what I

> don't eat to what I DO eat, from self-denial and self-loathing to

> self love and nourishment. Maybe I'm just sensitive because of

> the history of eating disorders in my family, but is anyone else

> disturbed and worried by the theme of extreme self-denial when

> it comes to food and sleep?

Yes, I certainly am. That is part of what first attracted

me to Nourishing Traditions, the fact that it seemed to be

a move away from this sort of dietary fanaticism and self-

denial.

> I'm frankly worried about you guys who seem to be focused on

> this. I know I'm probably opening myself up to attack by saying

> this, but I DON'T think this is healthy, ESPECIALLY for young

> people.

Yes, how can anybody not be worried about the two seventeen

year olds on the list in particular?

> When I read the posts, I was reminded of the feeling of

> superiority anorexics feel when they compare their foodless

> purity to the " gluttony " of everyone else, I was also reminded of

> macrobiotic vegetarians trying to reach a spiritually pure state

> through the way they eat. Please don't be offended, but I know

> from personal experience that this is a form of pride. The desire

> to be superior, above, special, god-like. But it is also a form of

> self-abuse and self-hatred.

Exaaaaaaaaactly!

[Guest guest]

I know that I personally don't have an eating disorder (I suspect most

people here don't either) so I don't feel at all offended. The pursuit

of a longer healthier life, it seems to me, is a sign of pyschological

strength rather than disease.

One thing I do find interesting...is that the more I read about

nutrition the more it's become a question of what NOT to eat rather

than what TO eat.

-

> Hi all- I'm replying to a bunch of messages, so won't have

> excerpts in this post.

>

> I joined this site because I finally switched my focus from what I

> don't eat to what I DO eat, from self-denial and self-loathing to

> self love and nourishment. Maybe I'm just sensitive because of

> the history of eating disorders in my family, but is anyone else

> disturbed and worried by the theme of extreme self-denial when

> it comes to food and sleep?

>

> Should we strive to run on cortisol and adrenalin, rarely sleeping

> and doing a million things at once? Should we strive to eat as

> little as possible to obtain some kind of higher state? If we're so

> hungry we have to stay busy constantly to avoid eating, is this a

> good thing?

>

> I'm frankly worried about you guys who seem to be focused on

> this. I know I'm probably opening myself up to attack by saying

> this, but I DON'T think this is healthy, ESPECIALLY for young

> people. My sister and I have both been in this place of

> food-denial obsessiveness (especially my sister, who was

> borderline anorexic and still suffers ill effects from this years

> later), and it is not a healthy place, physically or emotionally.

> Even if you're eating NT foods, undereating is still undereating.

>

> When I read the posts, I was reminded of the feeling of

> superiority anorexics feel when they compare their foodless

> purity to the " gluttony " of everyone else, I was also reminded of

> macrobiotic vegetarians trying to reach a spiritually pure state

> through the way they eat. Please don't be offended, but I know

> from personal experience that this is a form of pride. The desire

> to be superior, above, special, god-like. But it is also a form of

> self-abuse and self-hatred.

>

> Please please please nourish your bodies. A nourished body is

> free to lead a healthy spiritual life. The spiritual " high " that

> comes from abusing and denying the body is a false one.

>

> I apologize if I misunderstood the advocates of CR, and am

> overreacting to your comments. But this subject is close to my

> heart.

>

> Respectfully,

> Chavez

[Guest guest]

-

I wonder what you're reading, then, since so much of the focus of

NT/WAPF/etc. is on exactly that: what TO eat.

>One thing I do find interesting...is that the more I read about

>nutrition the more it's become a question of what NOT to eat rather

>than what TO eat.

-

[Guest guest]

,

> the more I read about

>nutrition the more it's become a question of what NOT to eat rather

>than what TO eat.

Front page on a women's magazine last week at grocery store checkout was

42,000 Foods " Not " to Eat. Had to compose myself and not laugh out loud as

l pictured that store without any middle aisles.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

average grocery store only has 20,000 items or so. (not counting upteen size

variations)

Re: Re: feeling concerned about CR

,

> the more I read about

>nutrition the more it's become a question of what NOT to eat rather

>than what TO eat.

Front page on a women's magazine last week at grocery store checkout was

42,000 Foods " Not " to Eat. Had to compose myself and not laugh out loud as

l pictured that store without any middle aisles.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think I can clear up this issue for you.

> but is anyone else

> disturbed and worried by the theme of extreme self-denial when

> it comes to food and sleep?

As far as I know, I'm the only person on this list who practices CR,

so I don't think there's any trend among this group of people, just

one oddball (me). I don't practice extreme self-denial in anything,

certainly not food. As I often point out when this topic comes up,

CR is not that big of a deal; it's just eating a little less. I've

never experienced any feeling of abnormal hunger or self-denial. As

far as the sleep thing, again, that's probably only one person's

individual lifestyle choice, and for me it just has to do with being

in a certain phase of life and having a certain interests and goals,

etc. i treat it as a calculated risk, subject to future revision. I

don't recall anyone expressing similar inclinations on the list.

My personal eccentricities are certainly not representative of other

people on the list, who probably wince at the thought of such an

ignominious association!

> Should we strive to run on cortisol and adrenalin, rarely sleeping

> and doing a million things at once? Should we strive to eat as

> little as possible to obtain some kind of higher state? If we're

so

> hungry we have to stay busy constantly to avoid eating, is this a

> good thing?

i'm not too familiar with the idea of CR to achieve " higher states " .

doubtless there are people who have this outlook, but i don't know

any personally and definitely am not such a person myself. of

course, there are thousands of fringe worldviews and lifestyles for

humans, but i don't associate this sort of thing with CR or the mini-

culture of human CR practitioners.

the bit about being hunger/distraction was just anecdotes about my

previous personal experience, only of theoretical interest with

respect to the topic of appestat, etc. i certainly don't have that

kind of lifestyle anymore, since i eat four times a day usually, and

i'm past the days of last-minute academic scrambles (every once in

while for old times' sake i guess!). i don't have an opinion about

the worth of that sort of lifestyle, but it is interesting to note

the similarity with WD.

> I'm frankly worried about you guys who seem to be focused on

> this.

i don't think there's anyone on this list who is focused on this,

since there's probably only one person who even practices CR. the

only other person i'm aware of who even has an interest, but probably

not to the point of being focused on it, is Theo (the precocious

teen from Quebec), and he is simply exploring various topics in

health and nutrition and experimenting, not devoting himself to CR or

something. even though i practice CR, it's not something i think

about very often or focus on in any way; it's just a background minor

detail about my eating habits. it's not a topic i would ever even

broach on this list beyond a footnote to something else, but i do

often reply to posts where it comes up since i apparently have the

only significant personal experience with the topic and i've spent

time participating in CR forums, so i have a good sense of what other

CR people are up to. it does bother me a little that people make so

many inaccurate assumptions about CR, the diets of practitioners,

etc. Even SF and Enig really butchered the topic in their

otherwise nice article on macronutrient ratios, completely

misrepresenting CR; of course I admire them greatly, but that was

one of their lesser moments, basically very bad journalism.

> When I read the posts, I was reminded of the feeling of

> superiority anorexics feel when they compare their foodless

> purity to the " gluttony " of everyone else, I was also reminded of

> macrobiotic vegetarians trying to reach a spiritually pure state

> through the way they eat. Please don't be offended, but I know

> from personal experience that this is a form of pride. The desire

> to be superior, above, special, god-like. But it is also a form of

> self-abuse and self-hatred.

again, as the only " data point " for this topic here, i personally

have no interest in this concept of purity, spirituality,

superiority, etc in relation to CR. i already over-feed my ego in

other ways it's just a minor lifestyle decision to stack the

odds for a longer life. i'm sure that the examples you cite of

unhealthy dietary practices are associated with these psychological

pathologies, but most CR people are interested in a calculated

dietary gambit subject to scientific scrutiny, not spirituality

(which can be explored in so many other ways unrelated to diet...)

> Please please please nourish your bodies. A nourished body is

> free to lead a healthy spiritual life. The spiritual " high " that

> comes from abusing and denying the body is a false one.

>

again, as the only CR person here, my diet is very nutrient-dense,

and i have the good fortune of being healthy and happy.

> I apologize if I misunderstood the advocates of CR, and am

> overreacting to your comments. But this subject is close to my

> heart.

i don't think there's a single advocate of CR on this list. the only

candidates would be practitioners, and since i'm probably the only

one, i can verify that i'm definitely not an advocate; i've never

recommended CR to anyone, and i've often pointed out that it's not

really suitable for most personalities/worldviews/lifestyle

orientations. to summarize my view on CR, it seems to me that

whether it works or not, it's worth a shot since it's a comfortable

and easy thing to do (for me), without any downsides (for me) except

maybe an increase in osteoporosis risk, and there might be a solution

to this. from the moment i first read about it, it just seemed like

an obvious and natural thing to do, not any kind of big change or

challenge. i was already skinny and had no hunger issues before i

ever read about it or thought about it; it was a no-brainer. of

course, other people can have different experiences, so maybe it's

not for them. and there are plenty of other things that i might find

extremely exciting that are of no interest to others...

all these clarifications aside, i think i understand where you're

coming from with your exposure to eating disorders and such, but

there's really no generalizations that be can made about this with

respect to CR and it's really not even very relevant to this list--

most people here probably could care less, and i only respond to the

topic, not raise it myself.

as far as Idol's remark about religiosity and CR, i haven't had

that impression at all in CR forums. it seems that there are two

main classes of people who are attracted to CR: on the one hand

people who see it as consistent with a more general attempt to

address health problems (often weight issues), for whom it may be

just one in a string of dietary experiments as they make the rounds

in the health section of the bookstore, so to speak, and on the other

hand the eccentric scientific types who just want to live longer for

whatever reason (personal ambition, etc), and have a suitable

lifestyle orientation. there's a extremely tiny number of sustained

CR practitioners as far as i can tell, as opposed to NT types, which

number in the millions, mostly just from growing up in a certain

environment and not knowing who SF is or anything of the sort. i

personally don't have a strong belief that CR will work, just

optimism based on suggestive evidence and the feeling that it's worth

a try, even if the odds are slim (and they are not so slim at all).

also, to be honest, my experience with it has been uniformly

positive, but again that's just one person's experience. if it

doesn't work i haven't lost anything, since i enjoy food and life to

my version of its fullest extent.

mike parker

[Guest guest]

" Please please please nourish your bodies. A nourished body is free to lead a

healthy spiritual life. The spiritual " high " that comes from abusing and

denying the body is a false one. "

kristen- thank you SO much for this post. i used to have an eating disorder and

my sensitivity to the recent posts has caused me to feel almost angry, but i

have avoided writing anything in reply. Most of the people on this list are not

advocates of CR, or practice it. I believe that the health and balance we seek

is one in which we are not fighting ourselves, instincts, or appetites, and i am

grateful for all of the people who support this viewpoint.

anna

I apologize if I misunderstood the advocates of CR, and am overreacting to your

comments. But this subject is close to my heart.Respectfully, Chavez

[Guest guest]

> kristen- thank you SO much for this post. i used to have an eating

disorder and my sensitivity to the recent posts has caused me to

feel almost angry, but i have avoided writing anything in reply.

Most of the people on this list are not advocates of CR, or practice

it. I believe that the health and balance we seek is one in which we

are not fighting ourselves, instincts, or appetites, and i am

grateful for all of the people who support this viewpoint.

> anna

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

anna,

AFAIK, **none** of the people on this list are advocates of CR, and

only **one** person practices it. also, CR has no inherent

connection with fighting ourselves, instincts, or appetites,

although actual instances of it could entail those things. also,

the primary purpose of CR for practitioners is life-extension, not

health and balance. fortunately they are independent of each other

and not mutually exclusive. also, people seek different things.

i don't intend to sound abrupt, but i just want to forestall

misinterpretations of CR. i also wrote another post giving more

detail on this topic. CR is completely different than eating

disorders.

best,

mike parker