Re: Trip to the health food store

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/4/03 5:40:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> Organic Sour dough bread-Spelt flour, buckwheat flour, spelt

> sourdough, sea salt. Is this bread sprouted and without phytates?

No, not unless it says it. For phytate-reduced bread look for long-rise

sourdoughs or sprouted. It should say it on the label.

> I also picked up some arrowroot because I've seen it mentioned in

> recipes...how should I use it? Is it a complex carb or is more like

> guar gum (mainly fiber)?

It's great for breading things you are going to fry, like oysters, or cod,

etc. It can be substituted for white flour in somethings, but not others; you

have to experiment. Cookies come out WAY to fluffy with it, but maybe if you

eliminate the baking powder they'll be ok.

I'd buy the 5-lb bag from Radiant Life. It's many times cheaper than any

other arrowroot I've seen.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/4/03 10:31:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bwp@...

writes:

> fermentation

> reduces phytates, so the sourdough bread you mention above probably

> is fine in that respect.

Mike,

I've always considered sourdough to be better in this respect than regular

bread (though never been sure about it), but wouldn't it depend on time? Aren't

most modern sourdoughs made relatively quickly? Any kind of leavening is

fermentation.

Chris

____

" What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It is a

heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings, birds, and

animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the sight of them

make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense compassion,

which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear the sight of

the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth, and for

those

who do them wrong. "

--Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> I went the the health food store today and picked up some items out

of

> curiosity and I'm curious to hear any feedback.

>

> Organic Vegetable and Fruit bars--First time I ever encounter

> something like this. I'm so used to seeing candied junk or

> protein/sugar disasters that this came as a real surprise to me. The

> ingredients read: Apples, Carrots, Alfalfa, Cabbage, Broccoli, Kale,

> Wheatgrass, Celery, Rosehip, Parsley, Cauliflower, Cucumber, Beets,

> Bell Peppers, Collards, Watercress, BokChoy, Tomatoes, Garlic,

Natural

> Flavors. 50g bar contains: 160 calories, 2g protein, 38 grams carbs

> (6g fiber), no fat.

>

> This seems like an absolutely perfect bar...if it's palatable. It

> pretty much includes all the vegetables I don't get on a regular

> basis, too! Is there any reason I shouldn't have this as a snack

(if I

> add other things to make it a more complete meal?)

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

well, maybe you'll get a few antioxidants out of it or something, but

if apples and carrots are the first ingredients, and not very

exciting ingredients, then the amount of the others (more expensive

ingredients) might be so small as to be a marketing trick. maybe it

won't be much different than eating some apple and carrot? of

course, there's nothing wrong with that, just nothing too exciting.

maybe you can contact the company and get exact compositional specs

and figure out whether it's worth it.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> Almond milk--70 cals per cup, 10g carbs, 3g fat, 2grams protein.

Made

> with water, almonds, brown rice, natural flavour, barley malt, seal

> salts, guar gum, xantham gum, carrageenan, locust bean gum. I'm not

> sure if any of the preservatives or thickeners here are unhealthy or

> not. Seems like a good alternative to pasteurized milk?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

i don't know if any of the stuff in there is bad (probably mostly

neutral), but it's easy to make your own almond milk, and probably

much much cheaper. you can also eliminate the junk carbs like brown

rice and barley malt. it's even easier to just soak almonds and eat

them as is. as far as the " alternative to milk " idea, this is one of

my hugest pet peeves in the world, so here i go: comparing seed

milks (soy, almond, coconut, etc) to milk milks (cow's, goat's,

sheep's, camel's, etc) is like comparing potato chips to cucumbers.

It rests on nothing other than the crudest of properties, namely

whether it's solid or liquid. There is no nutritional basis for the

comparison. If someone was allergic to cucumbers or didn't have a

good source, would it make sense to look for a good brand of potato

chips to fulfill the need to munch on solid thin discs? The

words " replacement " or " alternative " have no meaning in this case,

nor in the milk case. If for whatever reason you're not doing milk,

but are seeking liquid foods, then how about water, tea, stock,

coconut water, putting things in a blender, etc. Anything you drink,

including any milk, is mostly water. If the non-water part is, say,

10%, then that 10% can be anything you want and you can call it

anything you want.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> Organic Sour dough bread-Spelt flour, buckwheat flour, spelt

> sourdough, sea salt. Is this bread sprouted and without phytates?

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

bread, and grains in general, have been dropped from my diet in favor

of the myriad of other things that i prefer nutritionally and

aesthetically, but i have absolutely no problems with eating grains,

and i used to eat a brand of bread called " The Baker's " that i often

see in HFS's and supermarkets. the ingredients are just whole

grains, water, and salt and the label says " natural fermentation " .

(they have a line of typical breads too that i never tried.) i

suspect this is very high-quality food for gluten-tolerant people. i

used to eat the spelt and pumpernickel varieties and find them

extremely tasty and convenient. it is very dense and crumbles

easily, but it can still be functionally " bread " . fermentation

reduces phytates, so the sourdough bread you mention above probably

is fine in that respect. since it is not mentioned in the

ingredients, there would be no reason to assume, or even suspect,

that the grains were sprouted. fermented bread like sourdough is

probably the healthiest form of bread. but maybe sprouting and then

fermenting is the best way to go? either process will give a

potentially very healthy food. the " bread " archetype is similar to

the " milk " archetype, by the way, in being a particular textural,

tactile, ergonomic bias that is not essential, universal, or with a

precedent in most of the history of our species. if you're going to

eat grains, then just make some kind of porridge (easy to control

different ingredients, delicious, convenient, nutritious, etc). my

first-ever NT experiment was making oat porridge with overnight

soaking with buttermilk (this was before my raw milk and kefir days)

and i used make a big batch once a week and it eat it plain and cold

everyday. i thought the flavor and texture was divine; it was like a

dessert and i craved it. (hmm, craving grains, and now i crave

kefir... i can't forget which list i'm on as i picture the gears

turning inside Heidi's brain ...) (i dropped the oat porridge from

my diet because it is not as nutrient-dense as other options i have.

i'm tempted to have it once in a while as a treat, but now i'm more

interested in local and/or wild foods and i wouldn't know the source

of grains, and i just have too much food as it is.)

mike parker

[Guest guest]

> I've always considered sourdough to be better in this respect than

regular

> bread (though never been sure about it), but wouldn't it depend on

time? Aren't

> most modern sourdoughs made relatively quickly? Any kind of

leavening is

> fermentation.

>

> Chris

i thought it didn't take too long for phytates to be neutralized,

maybe just a day or so, but i guess it would definitely depend on

time and there might be commercial breads sold as sourdough but not

really using an authentic process. i guess it's just " buyer beware "

as usual for those who choose to buy...

mike parker

[Guest guest]

>

> Organic Vegetable and Fruit bars--First time I ever encounter

> something like this. I'm so used to seeing candied junk or

> protein/sugar disasters that this came as a real surprise to me.

> The ingredients read: Apples, Carrots, Alfalfa, . . .

I would never eat alfalfa or anything containing it. It has a

toxic amino-acid called canavanine in it, not in levels that are

considered dangerous, but alfalfa tastes nasty anyway, so why eat

it? Alfalfa is Spanky's buddy, not yours. Alfalfa is for horses.

> . . . Cabbage, Broccoli, Kale,

> Wheatgrass, Celery, Rosehip, Parsley, Cauliflower, Cucumber, Beets,

> Bell Peppers, Collards, Watercress, BokChoy, Tomatoes, Garlic,

Natural

> Flavors. 50g bar contains: 160 calories, 2g protein, 38 grams carbs

> (6g fiber), no fat.

It wouldn't be considered balanced from a carbohydrate counter's

point of view, but that might not be an issue for you.

> This seems like an absolutely perfect bar...if it's palatable. It

> pretty much includes all the vegetables I don't get on a regular

> basis, too! Is there any reason I shouldn't have this as a snack

> (if I add other things to make it a more complete meal?)

So long as you realize that it's not _really_ the same as actually

eating all of those vegetables.

> Almond milk--70 cals per cup, 10g carbs, 3g fat, 2grams protein.

Made

> with water, almonds, brown rice, natural flavour, barley malt, seal

> salts, guar gum, xantham gum, carrageenan, locust bean gum. I'm not

> sure if any of the preservatives or thickeners here are unhealthy or

> not. Seems like a good alternative to pasteurized milk?

Almond milk is really no substitute for real milk. It doesn't

contain complete proteins, and look at the low ratio of protein

to carbohydrates again.

> Organic Sour dough bread-Spelt flour, buckwheat flour, spelt

> sourdough, sea salt. Is this bread sprouted and without phytates?

If it doesn't say that it's sprouted, I'm sure it's not. It might

be without phytates if the entire mass of dough used was allowed

to ferment for a sufficient period of time, and not just the starter.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/4/03 11:44:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bwp@...

writes:

> i thought it didn't take too long for phytates to be neutralized,

> maybe just a day or so, but i guess it would definitely depend on

> time and there might be commercial breads sold as sourdough but not

> really using an authentic process. i guess it's just " buyer beware "

> as usual for those who choose to buy...

I think you can make a sourdough bread in something like 6 or 7 or 8 hours.

I asked the guy behind the bakery counter at the health food store I was

buying sour dough bread how long it was soured for, and I think he said around 7

hours.

Chris

[Guest guest]

My homemade sourdough is made with a 30 hour proof time. It takes it

this long for most things to be broken down and to make it digestable

for me.

From what folks on another list have told me, there are just a couple

of artisianal bakeries in the US that make this type of long

fermented sourdough.

Becky

>

> > i thought it didn't take too long for phytates to be neutralized,

> > maybe just a day or so, but i guess it would definitely depend

on

> > time and there might be commercial breads sold as sourdough but

not

> > really using an authentic process. i guess it's just " buyer

beware "

> > as usual for those who choose to buy...

>

> I think you can make a sourdough bread in something like 6 or 7 or

8 hours.

> I asked the guy behind the bakery counter at the health food store

I was

> buying sour dough bread how long it was soured for, and I think he

said around 7

> hours.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

You're right about the bar, I too pondered how much of it was actually

apple and carrot. Since I have little time to eat, I'll proabably add

it to my school snacks anyway since the ingredients are nevertheless

healthy ones. I just wanted to confirm that.

I think the reason why it's called almond milk is probably due mainly

to the taste and the colour--such labelling is not done on the basis

of nutritional similarity. I wonder what it tastes like and if it's

good, I'll probably buy it again (if only for the slight change). BTW,

how would you go about making almond milk? I've tried such things in

the past (even tried making sugarfree marzipan) and I always fail

miserably.

I also saw some of those oldern style rye breads that were really

heavy... those used to be my favorite kind as a kid so maybe I'll try

one of those as well. I highly doubt I'll ever find something which

mentions phytates or fermentation.

-

> > I went the the health food store today and picked up some items out

> of

> > curiosity and I'm curious to hear any feedback.

> >

> > Organic Vegetable and Fruit bars--First time I ever encounter

> > something like this. I'm so used to seeing candied junk or

> > protein/sugar disasters that this came as a real surprise to me. The

> > ingredients read: Apples, Carrots, Alfalfa, Cabbage, Broccoli, Kale,

> > Wheatgrass, Celery, Rosehip, Parsley, Cauliflower, Cucumber, Beets,

> > Bell Peppers, Collards, Watercress, BokChoy, Tomatoes, Garlic,

> Natural

> > Flavors. 50g bar contains: 160 calories, 2g protein, 38 grams carbs

> > (6g fiber), no fat.

> >

> > This seems like an absolutely perfect bar...if it's palatable. It

> > pretty much includes all the vegetables I don't get on a regular

> > basis, too! Is there any reason I shouldn't have this as a snack

> (if I

> > add other things to make it a more complete meal?)

> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>

> well, maybe you'll get a few antioxidants out of it or something, but

> if apples and carrots are the first ingredients, and not very

> exciting ingredients, then the amount of the others (more expensive

> ingredients) might be so small as to be a marketing trick. maybe it

> won't be much different than eating some apple and carrot? of

> course, there's nothing wrong with that, just nothing too exciting.

> maybe you can contact the company and get exact compositional specs

> and figure out whether it's worth it.

>

>

> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> > Almond milk--70 cals per cup, 10g carbs, 3g fat, 2grams protein.

> Made

> > with water, almonds, brown rice, natural flavour, barley malt, seal

> > salts, guar gum, xantham gum, carrageenan, locust bean gum. I'm not

> > sure if any of the preservatives or thickeners here are unhealthy or

> > not. Seems like a good alternative to pasteurized milk?

> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>

> i don't know if any of the stuff in there is bad (probably mostly

> neutral), but it's easy to make your own almond milk, and probably

> much much cheaper. you can also eliminate the junk carbs like brown

> rice and barley malt. it's even easier to just soak almonds and eat

> them as is. as far as the " alternative to milk " idea, this is one of

> my hugest pet peeves in the world, so here i go: comparing seed

> milks (soy, almond, coconut, etc) to milk milks (cow's, goat's,

> sheep's, camel's, etc) is like comparing potato chips to cucumbers.

> It rests on nothing other than the crudest of properties, namely

> whether it's solid or liquid. There is no nutritional basis for the

> comparison. If someone was allergic to cucumbers or didn't have a

> good source, would it make sense to look for a good brand of potato

> chips to fulfill the need to munch on solid thin discs? The

> words " replacement " or " alternative " have no meaning in this case,

> nor in the milk case. If for whatever reason you're not doing milk,

> but are seeking liquid foods, then how about water, tea, stock,

> coconut water, putting things in a blender, etc. Anything you drink,

> including any milk, is mostly water. If the non-water part is, say,

> 10%, then that 10% can be anything you want and you can call it

> anything you want.

>

>

> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

> > Organic Sour dough bread-Spelt flour, buckwheat flour, spelt

> > sourdough, sea salt. Is this bread sprouted and without phytates?

> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

>

> bread, and grains in general, have been dropped from my diet in favor

> of the myriad of other things that i prefer nutritionally and

> aesthetically, but i have absolutely no problems with eating grains,

> and i used to eat a brand of bread called " The Baker's " that i often

> see in HFS's and supermarkets. the ingredients are just whole

> grains, water, and salt and the label says " natural fermentation " .

> (they have a line of typical breads too that i never tried.) i

> suspect this is very high-quality food for gluten-tolerant people. i

> used to eat the spelt and pumpernickel varieties and find them

> extremely tasty and convenient. it is very dense and crumbles

> easily, but it can still be functionally " bread " . fermentation

> reduces phytates, so the sourdough bread you mention above probably

> is fine in that respect. since it is not mentioned in the

> ingredients, there would be no reason to assume, or even suspect,

> that the grains were sprouted. fermented bread like sourdough is

> probably the healthiest form of bread. but maybe sprouting and then

> fermenting is the best way to go? either process will give a

> potentially very healthy food. the " bread " archetype is similar to

> the " milk " archetype, by the way, in being a particular textural,

> tactile, ergonomic bias that is not essential, universal, or with a

> precedent in most of the history of our species. if you're going to

> eat grains, then just make some kind of porridge (easy to control

> different ingredients, delicious, convenient, nutritious, etc). my

> first-ever NT experiment was making oat porridge with overnight

> soaking with buttermilk (this was before my raw milk and kefir days)

> and i used make a big batch once a week and it eat it plain and cold

> everyday. i thought the flavor and texture was divine; it was like a

> dessert and i craved it. (hmm, craving grains, and now i crave

> kefir... i can't forget which list i'm on as i picture the gears

> turning inside Heidi's brain ...) (i dropped the oat porridge from

> my diet because it is not as nutrient-dense as other options i have.

> i'm tempted to have it once in a while as a treat, but now i'm more

> interested in local and/or wild foods and i wouldn't know the source

> of grains, and i just have too much food as it is.)

>

> mike parker

[Guest guest]

Is arrowroot nutritionally superior to white flour? I believe I did

see it mention in NT, but I'm not quite sure.

I checked labels (I always do) and didn't see the things you mention.

BTW, I was desperately looking for spinach crackers or pasta and came

up quite empty handed. The best I found was bulgur-spinach pasta

(which looked green) but I could not determine what percentage was

actually spinach...and since it was probably very minimal it didn't

seem worth it.

-

> In a message dated 10/4/03 5:40:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> paultheo2000@y... writes:

>

> > Organic Sour dough bread-Spelt flour, buckwheat flour, spelt

> > sourdough, sea salt. Is this bread sprouted and without phytates?

>

> No, not unless it says it. For phytate-reduced bread look for

long-rise

> sourdoughs or sprouted. It should say it on the label.

>

>

> > I also picked up some arrowroot because I've seen it mentioned in

> > recipes...how should I use it? Is it a complex carb or is more like

> > guar gum (mainly fiber)?

>

> It's great for breading things you are going to fry, like oysters,

or cod,

> etc. It can be substituted for white flour in somethings, but not

others; you

> have to experiment. Cookies come out WAY to fluffy with it, but

maybe if you

> eliminate the baking powder they'll be ok.

>

> I'd buy the 5-lb bag from Radiant Life. It's many times cheaper

than any

> other arrowroot I've seen.

>

> Chris

>

>

> ____

>

> " What can one say of a soul, of a heart, filled with compassion? It

is a

> heart which burns with love for every creature: for human beings,

birds, and

> animals, for serpents and for demons. The thought of them and the

sight of them

> make the tears of the saint flow. And this immense and intense

compassion,

> which flows from the heart of the saints, makes them unable to bear

the sight of

> the smallest, most insignificant wound in any creature. Thus they pray

> ceaselessly, with tears, even for animals, for enemies of the truth,

and for those

> who do them wrong. "

>

> --Saint Isaac the Syrian

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/03 8:08:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> I think the reason why it's called almond milk is probably due mainly

> to the taste and the colour--such labelling is not done on the basis

> of nutritional similarity. I wonder what it tastes like and if it's

> good, I'll probably buy it again (if only for the slight change). BTW,

> how would you go about making almond milk? I've tried such things in

> the past (even tried making sugarfree marzipan) and I always fail

> miserably.

The main point though is why would you want to displace real milk with

something of comparatively little nutritional value? (and which might be full of

enzyme inhibitors)

> I also saw some of those oldern style rye breads that were really

> heavy... those used to be my favorite kind as a kid so maybe I'll try

> one of those as well. I highly doubt I'll ever find something which

> mentions phytates or fermentation.

I doubt you will too, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a brand of

sprouted bread, if not a " European long-rise sourdough. " Where do you live?

Chris

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/5/03 8:10:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

paultheo2000@... writes:

> Is arrowroot nutritionally superior to white flour? I believe I did

> see it mention in NT, but I'm not quite sure.

Yeah, arrowroot is a completely unrefined flour-- despite it looking like

white flour. said on this list or beyondprice she didn't think it was

good

nutritionally but never said why. It's supposed to be high in calcium and

trace minerals, for a flour.

> I checked labels (I always do) and didn't see the things you mention.

They didn't have Shiloh Farms, Alvorado Street, or Manna breads? These are

national brands, and Alvorado Street is even sold in some regular supermarkets

in my area (Stop and Shop, specifically.)

Chris

[Guest guest]

>Is arrowroot nutritionally superior to white flour? I believe I did

>see it mention in NT, but I'm not quite sure.

Arrowroot doesn't have gluten, and is rather non-allergenic, so

it is used to feed babies. It makes a good thickener too (it thickens

immediately, the gourmet cooks like it). It hasn't got any more

nutrients than white flour though, I think.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't be displacing real milk...all I have access too is

pasteurized milk! I'll have a look next time I go, and give it a shot.

I live in Quebec City.

-

> In a message dated 10/5/03 8:08:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> paultheo2000@y... writes:

>

> > I think the reason why it's called almond milk is probably due mainly

> > to the taste and the colour--such labelling is not done on the basis

> > of nutritional similarity. I wonder what it tastes like and if it's

> > good, I'll probably buy it again (if only for the slight change).

BTW,

> > how would you go about making almond milk? I've tried such things in

> > the past (even tried making sugarfree marzipan) and I always fail

> > miserably.

>

> The main point though is why would you want to displace real milk with

> something of comparatively little nutritional value? (and which

might be full of

> enzyme inhibitors)

>

>

> > I also saw some of those oldern style rye breads that were really

> > heavy... those used to be my favorite kind as a kid so maybe I'll try

> > one of those as well. I highly doubt I'll ever find something which

> > mentions phytates or fermentation.

>

> I doubt you will too, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a

brand of

> sprouted bread, if not a " European long-rise sourdough. " Where do

you live?

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

at my bakery they do 12 hour sourdough as a minimum.

Dedy

> i thought it didn't take too long for phytates to be neutralized,

> maybe just a day or so, but i guess it would definitely depend on

> time and there might be commercial breads sold as sourdough but not

> really using an authentic process. i guess it's just " buyer beware "

> as usual for those who choose to buy...

I think you can make a sourdough bread in something like 6 or 7 or 8 hours.

I asked the guy behind the bakery counter at the health food store I was

buying sour dough bread how long it was soured for, and I think he said around

7

hours.

Chris

[Guest guest]

checked on http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s0255.html

seems that raw arrowroot is a very good source of Thiamin, Niacin, Iron,

Phosphorus and Potassium, and a very good source of Vitamin B6 and Folate....

the flour made from arrow root less so... now where do I find fresh arrow root

in London [must check my Chinese supermarket!] and how would I use it? mmm....

Dedy

Re: Re: Trip to the health food store

>Is arrowroot nutritionally superior to white flour? I believe I did

>see it mention in NT, but I'm not quite sure.

Arrowroot doesn't have gluten, and is rather non-allergenic, so

it is used to feed babies. It makes a good thickener too (it thickens

immediately, the gourmet cooks like it). It hasn't got any more

nutrients than white flour though, I think.

-- Heidi