URGENT! Need help with calculation of oakmoss

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

Is there a mathematics savvy in the group? This is a tricky one.

I need to communicate my '1950' perfume formulation to the office of trading

standards in the UK to confirm the oakmoss percentage used. If I can't prove I

am using the allowed percentage, I will have to stop selling this perfume which

is one of my best-sellers! (hence why some idiot anonymously denounced me).

As it needs to be precise, I definitely need to tell them which rule of

calculation I used. Where I stumble is that I use 6 DROPS of OAKMOSS diluted in

20 ml alcohol and when I make the perfume, I use 0.6% of this dilution but the

question is: what percentage of oakmoss there is actually in the complete blend?

To help you assist me, here is the percentage details of the total formulation.

So maybe a mathematics/logical mind in the group could let me know the

percentage of oakmoss:

In 500 Millimeters of alcohol

- OIL A: 3

- OIL B: 3

- OIL C: 3

- OIL D: 1.2

- OIL E: 5.2

- OIL F: 2.8

- OIL G: 0,8

- OIL H (OAKMOSS DILUTED): 1.8

(oakmoss absolute dilution - 6 drops in 20 ml alcohol = 0.24 ml)

- OIL I: 2.0

- OIL J: 1.2

- OIL K: 0.6

- OIL L: 1.2

--------------

TOTAL 25.8 ML IN 500 ML ALCOHOL = 525.8 ML PERFUME

What is the percentage of oakmoss in the full formulation? If I divide 1.8 by

525.8, I end up with 0.003% which is higher than the 0.001% allowed by the IFRA.

However THE OAKMOSS IS DILUTED. I usually take the basis that 1 ml = 30 drops

and for absolute 1 ml = 25 drops so 6 drops of oakmoss would be approx. 0.24 ml.

Do I have to multiply 0.24 by 1.8 to get my actual oakmoss percentage?

It's probably pretty simple but I have never been very good at mathematics!!

I will send a set of samples of my perfumes to the person who will help me solve

this problem.

Thank you so much for your help on this

Best regards

Isabelle

www.lesparfumsisabelle.co.uk

[Guest guest]

Isabelle,

The flaw, is that you are using drops, and not weight. If indeed you want to be

get the correct numbers, you need to convert the drops to grams, 'secundum

artem'.

The other issue, just because it says Oakmoss on the bottle, does not mean it is

old style Oakmoss & restricted. Maybe you got an IFRA/RIFM grade.

Contact your vendor. The real vendor! Not the re-seller. Chances are that if

you got it from a legit manufacturer, it is already allergen free.

[Guest guest]

What you need to do is determine exactly how much undiluted oakmoss you are

including then divide that by the total amount.

For example you say 6 drops in 20 ml, but then you are only including 1.8 ml of

that? That would mean you have .54 drops of oakmoss in the whole (20ml) mix.

Which at .04 ml per drop, makes for .02 ml which gives me .000041 or .0041 %

which is way less than 1%.

>>>> Do I have to multiply 0.24 by 1.8 to get my actual oakmoss percentage?

In this calculation what you want to do is divide 20 by 1.8 to get the

fractional part, then divide 0.24 by that same number.

1.8:20

0.24: (1.8:20)

Let's take an easier example. Lets say you had something called Blurf that was

divided 5:100 in something.

Then you took 10 of it.

That would be 10 times ( 5 divided by 100) so you get 0.5 (because if you took

100 you would get 5).

This becomes a bit more convoluted if you mean some amount added to another

amount. So in reality when you say 6 drops in 20 ml you might mean that you are

talking about a total of 20.24 ml which makes your dilution 1.186% rather than

1.2% (if the whole amount is 20 ml) However, just looking at this, if you have

pretty much a 1% solution of oakmoss and add it to anything you will be reducing

the % of the overall product.

___________

Another way to look at it is this:

If you have 6 drops in 20 ml then each 3.34 ml has one drop in it (20/6). Or

each ml has 0.3 drops in it (6/20). So if you work with these numbers you can

determine how much you want. So if you have a known ml of the total solution 1.8

ml then multiply that by drops per ml you get 0.54. And by your description you

have .04 ml in each drop that gives you 0.0216 ml total in (1.8 ml) Dividing

that by your total 525.8 gives you the 0.000041 fraction which converts to a

percentage by multiplying by 100 (or moving the dp 2 places) giving you .0041 %

It's early so check my math, but that should be the general direction.

-- B

[Guest guest]

________________________________

To: NaturalPerfumery

Sent: Fri, May 20, 2011 3:01:02 AM

Subject: URGENT! Need help with calculation of oakmoss

 

Hi Isabelle,

Below is the way I figured your percentages for your blend.  I hope this

helps. 

If you need more info about how I calculated, pm me.  I am copied this from

Excel so I hope it prints ok.

Jane

Oil A 3 0.58%

Oil B 3 0.58%

Oil C 3 0.58%

Oil D 1.2 0.23%

Oil E 5.2 1.00%

Oil F 2.8 0.54%

Oil G 0.8 0.15%

Oakmoss 0.54 0.10%

Alcohol in Oakmoss 1.26 0.24%  

Alcohol added 500 96.01%

Total 520.8 100.00%

Conservatively 20 drops = 1 ml (these would be big drops for heavy materials)

6/20= 30.00% 1.8x30%= 0.54

[Guest guest]

> Hi everyone,

>

> - OIL H (OAKMOSS DILUTED): 1.8

> (oakmoss absolute dilution - 6 drops in 20 ml alcohol = 0.24 ml)

> --------------

> TOTAL 25.8 ML IN 500 ML ALCOHOL = 525.8 ML PERFUME

>

> What is the percentage of oakmoss in the full formulation?

>

Hi Isabelle....

As points out, the only true way to get an accurate percentage is

to convert everything to grams...

You can get a rough idea, by volumetric...

Your oakmoss dilution is 6 drops abs in 600 drops (20ml X 30

drops/ml)....or 1% (.01)...

So, the amount of Oakmoss is 1.8ml times .01 or .018 ml....

You have .018 ml oakmoss in your final perfume....

..018ml, divided by 525.8 = .000034, which would be .0034 percent....

The inaccuracies caused by the varying densities of the materials are

ignored in volumetric method, but if your target limit is .001 percent

or less, you have about 3.4 times the amount....

To look at it another way....525.8ml times .001 percent, is .00526 ml...

You are using .018 ml....About 3.4 times the amount....

Hope this helps....

--

W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

A.J.P. (GIA)

[Guest guest]

>

>> Hi everyone,

>>

>

>> - OIL H (OAKMOSS DILUTED): 1.8

>> (oakmoss absolute dilution - 6 drops in 20 ml alcohol = 0.24 ml)

>

>> --------------

>> TOTAL 25.8 ML IN 500 ML ALCOHOL = 525.8 ML PERFUME

>>

>> What is the percentage of oakmoss in the full formulation?

>>

Hi Again Isabelle, Folks...

If folks are wondering why there seems to be different mathematical

results for Isabelle's question, it's because of the drops per ml

conversion variance....Over the years I have seen anywhere from 60 to 20

drops per milliliter...

Isabelle gave a factor of 30 drops per ml....and another for the

absolute....25 drops per ml....

I used the 30 drops per ml in my explanation...

This points out one of the inherent variances in a volumetric

system....Physical differences in droppers and vicsosity and density

differences in materials can result in a lot of slop creeping in...

In my own dabblings, I use 20 drops per ml, and I use 1ml serological

pipettes to measure each drop at 1/20th (.05) of a ml....

I use a 10ml graduated cylinder for ml amounts....And for making

dilutions that are usable with pipettes when things are too viscous...

This eliminates some of the slop...

Again, as pointed out...For accuracy, one has to go to a weight

system....

It would seem that that in terms of an allowable standard percentage of

a material in a blend, which no doubt involves official scrutiny, weight

would be the only way to go....

The simplest approach would be to weigh the amount of oakmoss used to

make the dilution and weigh the dilution....From that you could

calculate a weight percentage....Then weigh the 1.8 ml of dilution used

and times the dilution percentage...

This would give you a net weight of oakmoss used in the blend,

Then weigh the final blend, and use these figures to come up with an

accurate percentage by weight...

Net weight of oakmoss used divided by the weight of the final blend gets

your percentage...

Hope this does not add further to any confusion...<G>.....!

--

W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

A.J.P. (GIA)

[Guest guest]

>> has totally been destroyed by the bunch of IFRA idiots

Now, now! It's not IFRA or RIFM, its the greenies the pseudo scientist, the

SYNTHETIC bashers.

IFRA is only acting on the complaints of the vocal minority. Do some due

diligence, and find out who has been complaining and been very vocal about

'CHEMICALS' in perfumes.

YES = Synthetics are CHEMICAL, and nature is made also made up of CHEMICALS and

many 'synthetics' start from natural feedstock. Could that be? Heresy!! Could

we have a failure in the educational system? Loss of focus?

In any event IFRA, it is only a guideline - you decide -, and I would guess that

the 'person(s)' that 'denounced you' was most likely a member of that vocal

minority.

The industry does not care. Trust me on that one.

Again, the question ignored. Which 'Moss' was used? Is it allergen free????

[Guest guest]

Hi Isabelle,

I don't get it - where is the problem?????????????

As correctly stated, your dilution is 1% (6 drops in about 600 drops)and

your amount in the final blend is waaaaaaaaaay below the Ifra restricted level

of 0.1%. With that you should be perfectly set.

You mention a percentage of 0.001% - where does that come from? To my knowledge

you only have to label allergens above that percentage, and that you have to do

with all the other allergens as well - but that doesn't mean you can't sell it.

Even lots of industrial frags have the oakmoss labelled. Just my 2 cents as a

mere hobbyist :0)

[Guest guest]

Correct, on all counts. and we still do not know which 'oakmoss' was used.

Could that be the problem??

[Guest guest]

HI Annette,

The IFRA restricted level is not O.1% but 0.001% (2 zeros before the 1) - The

SCCP (Scientific committee on consumer products whose information the EU uses

for their restrictions) states in their opinion under '1. BACKGROUND' on 7th

December 2004:

Chloroatranol is an ingredient present in natural extracts such as oak moss. Oak

moss extract is listed in Annex III of Directive 76/768/EEC with the following

requirements: '' The presence of the substance must be indicated in the list of

ingredients referred to in Article 6(1)(g) when its concentration exceeds 0.001%

in leave-on products and 0.01% in the ''rinse-off products''. Chloroatranol and

atranol as such are not regulated in an Annex to the Cosmetics Directive.

-------

Although the SCCP says that the consumers should receive clear information about

the presence of those allergens in a product in their CONCLUSION under paragraph

4, the SCCP states:

'' Because chloroatranol and atranol are components of a botanical extract, oak

moss absolute, it has been impossible to trace exposure.

[...]

As chloroatranol and atranol are such potent allergens (particularly

chloroatranol), they should NOT be present in cosmetic products.

Although the mandate requested an opinion on cosmetic use only, the risks to

consumer health from presence of chloroatranol/atranol in other types of

consumer products should be assessed.

If, by informing the client that the percentage of oakmoss is above the

recommended percentage, I can get away with it, I shall do so. This is what I am

trying to find out with the office of trading standards... At this stage, I

don't know whether the oakmoss is banned under the latest directive on

cosmetics. Do you have any update about this?

However, if what you say about the labelling of allergens is true, why is it

then that the Office of trading standards visited me despite the fact that

Evernia Prunastri has always appeared on my labels (and on my website) for that

perfume?

Thank you for your insight. It gives me more ammunition to ask the right

questions to the authorities. Very appreciated.

Isabelle

[Guest guest]

Hi

I get my oakmoss from Biolandes France, origin Macedonia and low in atranol.

Their absolute has been developed specially further to the latest IFRA

recommendation in 2008. (http://www.biolandes.com/index.php?lg=en)

Low in atranol sheet:

http://www.biolandes.com/en-production-aromatic-plants.php?id=62 & lg=en

On their website, Biolandes state that the recommended quantity should be: less

than 100 ppm of atranol/chloroatranol or 0.1%.

This is the confusion I need to clarify: the difference between ppm and %.

If I follow the Biolandes explanation, my perfume is way beyond the 0.1% since I

had 0.034% of oak moss in the total blend.

However, I am not sure the UK office of trading standards do actually know and

understand themselves that difference. In order to be able to carry on selling

my perfume, I'll need to give them a clear explanation.

I have always mentioned the presence of the oakmoss on my INCI labelling so I

assume that their 'visit' to my premises is actually not even justified.

I'll give them a summary based on all the info I gathered so far including your

guidelines for calculating the percentage and see whether that will satisfy

them.

Thank you very much for your help and useful comments.

Isabelle

[Guest guest]

Hi Isabelle,

like you wrote yourself, the presence of the substance MUST BE INDICATED if it's

level exceeds 0.001.

But the substance CAN BE USED to a level of 0.1%. The word banned is incorrect,

it is restricted, when you go to the link, you can download the document:

http://www.ifraorg.org/en-us/standards_restricted_8/s/oakmoss/s3

I guess the office is approaching you to find out whether you're within the

allowed level. At least that's what I would have to in Germany for a safety

assessment.

Good luck, Annette