Re: Amber oil - 35 million years old?

[Guest guest]

> I have never heard about a 35 million years old amber oil? Great to find out

whats in there. With GS-MS. Cool. So what now?

> How much oil would be available? How much can you use it in your essential oil

blends? How much would this material bring up your cost?

> I think you are all dreaming. Unrealistic. Leave the amber 35 millions alone

and concentrate on the realistic things. That would be my suggestion.

> There are materials right now that would be pretty close to an " amber " scent.

But dealing with an 35 million year old amber is just laughable.

> I have been in the natural " perfumery " for over 30 years. Saw a lot, smelled

a lot, distilled a lot, created a lot. Worked for Dragoco Germany, Symrise now,

worked for AVEDA, 100% organic oils, and now work in Dallas Texas. Create all

natural Aromas, natural flavors and whatever you want.

> I still get a kick out of the 35 million years amber. My goodness. I thought

you were experts. But you sound so silly.

> That is my personnel opinion.

>

Hi Udo.....

Silly? I think not...

The information is out there that might change your opinion...And revise

your estimation of expertise...Take away your " kick " . No dreaming

*here*....<G>....!

It takes a while to make a fossil...

Amber (the fossil) can be up to *320 million* years old...The stuff that

sometimes has very ancient bugs trapped in it...Starts out as tree resin...

This amber oil is a special distillation process on the amber

fossil....This is not going to be amber in the traditional perfumer

vernacular (labdanum, etc.)....or ambergris either, but the distillation

of amber, the fossilized tree resin....

These are generally accepted *facts*, not personal opinion....

As used in jewelry, you have to be careful what solvents you let near

it...alcohol, ether and chloroform for example...They will ruin the

appearance of jewelry grade amber...

On of the ways you test for amber (used in jewelry) is to heat a pin,

touch in an inconsicuous spot and see if you get a woody resin

smell...So there are scent compounds in it...

I've never ran across it as a distilled oil before, because there are

several methods of turning it into a liquid...

Hence, my interest....I have no idea how it will work, because I've

never had any before..

Must be kind of uncommon, or I'm sure you would have heard about it

before...

Regards...

--

W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

A.J.P. (GIA)

http://www.facebook.com/Le.Hermite

[Guest guest]

> I have never heard about a 35 million years old amber oil? Great to find out

whats in there. With GS-MS. Cool. So what now?

> How much oil would be available? How much can you use it in your essential oil

blends? How much would this material bring up your cost?

> I think you are all dreaming. Unrealistic. Leave the amber 35 millions alone

and concentrate on the realistic things. That would be my suggestion.

> There are materials right now that would be pretty close to an " amber " scent.

But dealing with an 35 million year old amber is just laughable.

> I have been in the natural " perfumery " for over 30 years. Saw a lot, smelled

a lot, distilled a lot, created a lot. Worked for Dragoco Germany, Symrise now,

worked for AVEDA, 100% organic oils, and now work in Dallas Texas. Create all

natural Aromas, natural flavors and whatever you want.

> I still get a kick out of the 35 million years amber. My goodness. I thought

you were experts. But you sound so silly.

> That is my personnel opinion.

Hi Again, Udo, Folks...

I had emailed Will at Eden right after I ordered the amber oil, kind of

thanking him for making this available...It was pretty much my post on

the NP List, because I thought the NP folks might be interested...

He has run a GCMS on the oil, not a GS-MS however...I myself am not sure

what a GS-MS is, but I suspect a GCMS will do...

He commented....

" Anyway, I do not consider our Fossilized Amber Oil an essential oil.

How can you recover an essential oil from a 35 million year old mineral

that was once a tree resin? It just never made sense to me. Now I have

the actual story because we had the gcms analysis performed on the oil.

It does - surprisingly - contain 41% essential oil components that were

locked up in the structure of the mineral and released during the dry

distillation. The remaining composition of the oil are 'artifacts " of

the distillation and and were not part of the original tree resin.

However, they add to the beauty and great tenacity of the final oil. "

He is working up a profile on the oil, as we speak....

I look forward to receiving it more than ever, now...!

This almost Jurassic Park stuff....<G>....!

--

W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

A.J.P. (GIA)

http://www.facebook.com/Le.Hermite

[Guest guest]

Udo Ludwig wrote:

> I have never heard about a 35 million years old amber oil? Great to find out

whats in there. With GS-MS. Cool. So what now?

>

Hi Udo:

Actually, it's a GC/MS.

> How much oil would be available? How much can you use it in your essential oil

blends? How much would this material bring up your cost?

>

Good questions. Not sure Will has all the answers, that's what

organoleptic studies and mods and pricing spreadsheets are to me, a

perfumer, tools to evaluate all those factors. I'm playing with the oil

now.

> I think you are all dreaming. Unrealistic. Leave the amber 35 millions alone

and concentrate on the realistic things. That would be my suggestion.

>

For goodness sake, why? I wear amber jewelry all the time, and there are

vast stores of it in this world, so why is it unrealistic (to paraphrase

you)?

> There are materials right now that would be pretty close to an " amber " scent.

But dealing with an 35 million year old amber is just laughable.

>

Why? I thought had a great point - wearing something ancient is

mystical (my word), but said it well, too ;-) Should people laugh

at me when I wear my 60-million year old amber (the typical age of

amber, the Himilayan stuff is a lot younger, by Will's account.)

> I have been in the natural " perfumery " for over 30 years. Saw a lot, smelled

a lot, distilled a lot, created a lot. Worked for Dragoco Germany, Symrise now,

worked for AVEDA, 100% organic oils, and now work in Dallas Texas. Create all

natural Aromas, natural flavors and whatever you want.

>

That's great, you've seen a lot of stuff, sniffed a lot. But never an

amber oil, I see. I first got some over 30 years ago when a friend, a

professor from the University of California who knew of my amber

passion, brought me back a tiny bottle from a destructive distillation

he witnessed personally at a factory. They were creating the smoky oil

out of the dust and bits left over after amber jewelry production. Good

recycling! Will's stuff smells very similar.

> I still get a kick out of the 35 million years amber. My goodness. I thought

you were experts. But you sound so silly.

> That is my personnel opinion.

>

No problem. I always like when a new idea or product gets knocked by an

expert. All the more fun! Silly me ;-) That's my personal *and*

professional opinion, always was, always will be. Thanks for your input.

Anya McCoy

http://AnyasGarden.com

http://NaturalPerfumers.com

http://PerfumeClasses.com

[Guest guest]

Sorry for sounding silly...

But is the amber mentioned here the same as the resin that you can burn as

incense?

And what is destructive distillation?

Thank you,

Irina

[Guest guest]

Irina Tudor wrote:

> Sorry for sounding silly...

> But is the amber mentioned here the same as the resin that you can burn as

> incense?

>

No, it's the fossilized resin of trees that lived millions of years ago,

often made into jewelry, like this:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en & q=amber%20jewelry & um=1 & ie=UTF-8 & source=og & \

sa=N & tab=wi

> And what is destructive distillation?

>

Choya nakh and choya loban are products of destructive distillation,

too. The substance at hand is really toasted and 'burnt' in the

distillation process, thus it's called destructive.

> Thank you,

> Irina

>

> Anya McCoy

> http://AnyasGarden.com

> http://NaturalPerfumers.com

> http://PerfumeClasses.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Anya! The amber I have here (to burn) is called the same as the

stone used for jewels (barnsteen).

Any more information on destructive distillation? How do you get an oil from

burning a resin? I just can't picture it....

Thanks again,

Irina

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

thank you for your response. First I have to correct you. Ambergris has nothing

to do with Amber. Ambergris comes from a natural source. From the Whale exactly.

Amber is also in the perfumery language a category that describes a fragrance

that smells sweet, vanilla, woodsy like.

I just cannot imagine that somebody takes a 300 Million old jewel, as you know

they make nice Jewelery out of it, and disolves it in solvent and puts it in a

blend of Natural Perfume.

That would be like burning a Diamond to heat up a room. As you know a Diamond

consist almost 100% out of carbon.

You might think about resins, not 300 million years old, but just a very few

years old. Think about Francincense. Starts with a resin and they distill the

oil out to get Olibanum oil or Francincense oil. Same material.

So I hope that helps you to re-evaluate your knowledge. Some people might take

you serious and want to disolve this precious 300 milion year old jewel.

Best regards,

Udo

[Guest guest]

> > And what is destructive distillation?

> >

> Choya nakh and choya loban are products of destructive distillation,

> too. The substance at hand is really toasted and 'burnt' in the

> distillation process, thus it's called destructive.

> > Thank you,

> > Irina

> >

> > Anya McCoy

Cade is also an oil that is destructively distilled as well, from juniper wood,

I believe. Since they are toasted and burnt, the destructive distilled oils

have a pronounced smoky smell.

did mention ambergris actually but I believe it was in reference to the

fact that " amber " was a blend concocted from various aromatics to imitate amber,

or that amber has been confused with ambergris. Was the word amber also used as

a shortened term for ambergris as well?

Amber and ambergris seem to be one of the most talked about and most confusing

subjects in natural perfumery!

[Guest guest]

I apoligize for misstyping GC/MS. Since I have run lots of GC/MS's myself for

may years and have been a GC/MS sniffer in the research department the get

mother nature's secrets out, this should not have happen. I hope the group will

forgive me for my misstype.

Regards,

Udo

[Guest guest]

well, well, well, i go to pittsburgh and the kids stop playing nice. *LAUGH*

so udo, they are not talking about an amber accord, but the aromatic material

trapped inside fossilised amber. so you or i probably would not call that an

essential oil. i know it's hard for us to imagine the use of it, but it still

represents an aromatic choice. how sustainable or plant based is not the idea

here. they are talking about using a new aromatic option.

and with all respect, i am not sure this group is ABOUT professionals, either in

a perfume house sense or a scientific sense. there are people here who are

consumers, hobbyists and novices. then there are those who are commercially

successful and those actually educated under a nose. soooo... you know there's

going to be a wide variety of opinions and ideas about what anyone is doing

here.

and as you well pointed out, even after gas/mass testing, someone still has to

take a whiff. so you know, all the paper in the world is not worth a good nose.

you know that.

and you're right, there are plenty of materials one could use to make a good

amber accord... but here we are, and this is what will is doing and excited

about, and so i support that. i, personally, am not interested because my

personal interests lie in sustainable agriculture and it's role in preserving

our planet... and someone else is probably interested in marketing something for

personal income and another interested in getting that so and so's attention by

aroma-- it's all a wonderfully varied garden.

and we all also know that monocropping of any kind is detrimental to growth... i

suppose one could parlay that into opinions as well.

cause you know, opinions are like roses.. everyone has one, but mine smell the

best. *ahem*

much light to all; einsof

[Guest guest]

> Any more information on destructive distillation? How do you get an oil from

> burning a resin? I just can't picture it....

> Thanks again,

> Irina

Here's a good explanation of destructive distillation. No water is used and

from what I understand a new clay pot is used for each distillation.

http://www.naturesgift.com/essential/Choya-Loban.htm

Maggie

[Guest guest]

> Any more information on destructive distillation? How do you get an oil from

> burning a resin? I just can't picture it....

> Thanks again,

> Irina

Here's a good explanation of destructive distillation. No water is used and

from what I understand a new clay pot is used for each distillation.

http://www.naturesgift.com/essential/Choya-Loban.htm

Maggie

[Guest guest]

> I just cannot imagine that somebody takes a 300 Million old jewel, as you know

they make nice Jewelery out of it, and disolves it in solvent and puts it in a

blend of Natural Perfume.

> That would be like burning a Diamond to heat up a room. As you know a Diamond

consist almost 100% out of carbon.

> You might think about resins, not 300 million years old, but just a very few

years old. Think about Francincense. Starts with a resin and they distill the

oil out to get Olibanum oil or Francincense oil. Same material.

> So I hope that helps you to re-evaluate your knowledge. Some people might take

you serious and want to disolve this precious 300 milion year old jewel.

> Best regards,

> Udo

I don't know why this is so mystifying? Everybody knows that fossilized amber

has a sweet scent when scratched or rubbed, since it's basically a resinous sap

not unlike the ones we distill today (frankincense, myrrh, etc.). It's not at

all analogous to a diamond, as carbon does not have a scent.

Maggie

[Guest guest]

Let's

> just focus on the amber resin now, or our heads might explode, LOL!

That's why we should probably call it fossilized amber resin so as to

distinguish it from the amber resins that are made in India according to secret

family recipes which have that " amber " scent.

Maggie

[Guest guest]

Let's

> just focus on the amber resin now, or our heads might explode, LOL!

That's why we should probably call it fossilized amber resin so as to

distinguish it from the amber resins that are made in India according to secret

family recipes which have that " amber " scent.

Maggie

[Guest guest]

Hi Will,

thank you for your information. I find it very interesting and I will contact

you next week.

Your report took a lot of guessing and uncertainties out.

Thank you for your efforts.

Udo

[Guest guest]

this post has been so interesting! i have one possibly dumb question, so please

forgive my naivete (or ignorance, either way!:-) is there any reason that a

person who is interested in the environmental friendliness of products would

have particular concerns about this type of amber oil? thanks in advance for

any information.

best!

stacy