Re: Natural Perfume Base vs. Organic Grain/Grape Alcohol

[Guest guest]

The main difference is the addition of the Benzoin. which you may or

may not want in your perfumes as it has a strong scent of it's own.

There may also be a certain amount of water already in the perfume

base...are you adding any yourself when blending? This would certainly

make it cloudy....

The benzoin is added simply so they can re-sell it, because it is

" de-natured " .

Pity you're in Perth otherwise you could just drop round and pick up

some straight ethanol from my workshop near Sydney, grin!

As far as I know no one is selling " organic " alcohol in Oz...but you can

buy pure ethanol which is usually made from cane sugar and hence pretty

natural anyway...but you do need to have an alcohol license to be a

loowed to buy it and they aren't that easy to come by.

Ambrosia

[Guest guest]

________________________________

To: NaturalPerfumery

Sent: Wed, 15 December, 2010 7:50:12 AM

Subject: Re: Natural Perfume Base vs. Organic Grain/Grape

Alcohol

The main difference is the addition of the Benzoin. which you may or

may not want in your perfumes as it has a strong scent of it's own.

There may also be a certain amount of water already in the perfume

base...are you adding any yourself when blending? This would certainly

make it cloudy....

The benzoin is added simply so they can re-sell it, because it is

" de-natured " .

Pity you're in Perth otherwise you could just drop round and pick up

some straight ethanol from my workshop near Sydney, grin!

As far as I know no one is selling " organic " alcohol in Oz...but you can

buy pure ethanol which is usually made from cane sugar and hence pretty

natural anyway...but you do need to have an alcohol license to be a

loowed to buy it and they aren't that easy to come by.

Ambrosia

Hi Ambrosia,

Not sure if there's any water added to the base already but I don't add any

myself. The perfumes don't come out cloudy but there is sometimes a muddy

quality - no doubt caused by my lack of experience in blending. I just thought

there was a chance that I could blame it on the base Oh well!!

It's a real pain in the ass not being able to get alcohol here...I called up a

local-ish distillery and they quoted an astronomical price per litre for alcohol

but said that if I could get an ABN it would be a whole lot cheaper. I didn't

further investigate it at the time because I was only just beginning with my

experiments but I now have one perfume that I'm actually really pleased with and

would consider making a larger batch of for sale.

Anyway...it is a pity I can't just pop by and snap up some of that booze from

your workshop

Can I just also ask you whether you consider 10 percent aromatic concentration

to be an EDP?

Thanks for your help I really appreciate it.

xo

[Guest guest]

, Ambrosia - I'm so glad to see you two linking up, if just

for the advice-sharing, and not the actual alcohol-sharing. We

have a number of other Aussies on the group, maybe they're in

lurk mode, busy holiday mode or whatever, but it'd be nice to see

them helping on the quest.

Anya McCoy

http://AnyasGarden.com

http://PerfumeClasses.com

http://NaturalPerfumers.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Ambrosia,

Not sure if there's any water added to the base already but I don't add any

myself. The perfumes don't come out cloudy but there is sometimes a muddy

quality - no doubt caused by my lack of experience in blending. I just thought

there was a chance that I could blame it on the base

 

The muddiness could also come from the essences you might be using.  Some do

make for a muddy perfume, many absolutes being dark and opaque.  Green and black

tea absolutes will do this to a blend, as will rosemary absolute.  Sometimes

they leave debris that won't dissolve at all(I find this a lot with rosemary

abs).  Tobacco, some labdanums and oak/treemosses, and a couple of others that I

cant remember right now also have this dark, murky quality.  Many CO2 extracts

have indissolveable waxes and also  might make your blend cloudy, at least at

first.  I don't  know what you've been using, but it might be from the essences.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Ambrosia,

> Not sure if there's any water added to the base already but I don't add any

> myself. The perfumes don't come out cloudy but there is sometimes a muddy

> quality - no doubt caused by my lack of experience in blending. I just thought

> there was a chance that I could blame it on the base

>

> The muddiness could also come from the essences you might be using. Some do

make for a muddy perfume, many absolutes being dark and opaque. Green and black

tea absolutes will do this to a blend, as will rosemary absolute. Sometimes

they leave debris that won't dissolve at all(I find this a lot with rosemary

abs). Tobacco, some labdanums and oak/treemosses, and a couple of others that I

cant remember right now also have this dark, murky quality. Many CO2 extracts

have indissolveable waxes and also might make your blend cloudy, at least at

first. I don't know what you've been using, but it might be from the essences.

>

>

, thanks for stepping in to help. Some citrus oils are very

high in terpenes, and that can cause hazy cloudiness. That's not

quite the right description. It's colorless, but seems to have

" squigglies " in it for want of a better word. CO2s are notorious

for murkiness. Sometimes the old freezer/settling/decanting

works best. Two of my perfumes are high in everything murky, and

I can never do anything but let them sit and decant off the top.

Anya McCoy

http://AnyasGarden.com

http://PerfumeClasses.com

http://NaturalPerfumers.com

[Guest guest]

>

, thanks for stepping in to help. Some citrus oils are very

high in terpenes, and that can cause hazy cloudiness. That's not

quite the right description. It's colorless, but seems to have

" squigglies " in it for want of a better word. CO2s are notorious

for murkiness. Sometimes the old freezer/settling/decanting

works best. Two of my perfumes are high in everything murky, and

I can never do anything but let them sit and decant off the top.

Anya McCoy

http://AnyasGarden.com

http://PerfumeClasses.com

http://NaturalPerfumers.com

You're welcome Anya.  I haven't noticed that effect with citruses, but by the

time I've added them, the blend is already full of dark, murky basenotes

anyway!  I've been making a lot of dark and/or murky blends lately, some by

design(it started around Halloween-go figure), some by circumstance.  

 I have a proposal.  Maybe after the holiday craziness, maybe we could get a

meeting of South Florida NP'rs to happen?  I've met Elise already at the

farmers market in South Beach, but it would be nice to meet up with any other

NP'ers in the area.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ambrosia,

Not sure if there's any water added to the base already but I don't add any

myself. The perfumes don't come out cloudy but there is sometimes a muddy

quality - no doubt caused by my lack of experience in blending. I just thought

there was a chance that I could blame it on the base

The muddiness could also come from the essences you might be using. Some do

make for a muddy perfume, many absolutes being dark and opaque. Green and black

tea absolutes will do this to a blend, as will rosemary absolute. Sometimes

they leave debris that won't dissolve at all(I find this a lot with rosemary

abs). Tobacco, some labdanums and oak/treemosses, and a couple of others that I

cant remember right now also have this dark, murky quality. Many CO2 extracts

have indissolveable waxes and also might make your blend cloudy, at least at

first. I don't know what you've been using, but it might be from the essences.

Hi ,

By muddy I meant the smell of them was a little unfocused...I wish it was only

the general appearance!

xo

[Guest guest]

Hi again,

Sorry, when I said that my perfumes are not as " clear " as I would like them to

be, what I meant was that they didn't have that defined and crystal clear type

of smell to them that I experienced when I smell perfumes such as the samples I

have from Mandy Aftel. They way I typed it, it definitely read like they were

muddy in appearance. Sorry about that...

xo

[Guest guest]

>

> The main difference is the addition of the Benzoin. which you may or

> may not want in your perfumes as it has a strong scent of it's own.

> There may also be a certain amount of water already in the perfume

> base...are you adding any yourself when blending? This would certainly

> make it cloudy....

> The benzoin is added simply so they can re-sell it, because it is

> " de-natured " .

>

> Pity you're in Perth otherwise you could just drop round and pick up

> some straight ethanol from my workshop near Sydney, grin!

>

> As far as I know no one is selling " organic " alcohol in Oz...but you can

> buy pure ethanol which is usually made from cane sugar and hence pretty

> natural anyway...but you do need to have an alcohol license to be a

> loowed to buy it and they aren't that easy to come by.

>

> Ambrosia

>

Ambrosia darlin'

I almost jumped in the car and hurtled down to see you!

Other Aussies reading along...Hi , hi Everyone.. I'm in Qld - kinda

sugarcane capital, as you'd imagine... and the supply of perfumer's alcohol here

is definitely all sugar-cane derived ethanol; as far as I can sleuth it out..

they all have benzoin in, which makes me think they're all getting it from the

same place, but no-one is saying. And I think it's too $$$.

I've promised myself I'll make a point of asking one of my Qld suppliers -

Ahimsa - what the percentage of alcohol and benzoin are in the perfumers'

alcohol they sell.

The benzoin de-natured sugar-cane ethanol seems ok for experimenting on a small

scale, with perfumes which suit benzoin's added aroma... ugg.. it reminds me of

sprained ankles, and Tinc Benz Co - which was always applied to skin before

strapping stains and sprains with elastoplast when I was a kid!

Margi in Brisbane

http://margihealing.wordpress.com/

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi ,

> By muddy I meant the smell of them was a little unfocused...I wish it was only

> the general appearance!

> xo

>

> Ah,I see (despite any muddiness or murkiness ) I've heard sometimes that

happens when too many essences are used, but I've also heard from some NP'ers

that the 0nly way to make a full, complex perfume is to use a lot of essences.

I stand somewhere in the middle. I've had the experience of my blends smelling

too bland the more I've added, but I cant seem to streamline TOO much. I usually

have four to five essences in a chord. Mandy Aftel reccomends using only three

for each one. Usually the amount of essences I use per blend is anywhere from

12 to 15. Any more and I do find that it gets muddy, unpronounced, and kind of

flat.

My problems are usually not with murkiness, but with sameness. Sometimes I

feel that a lot of my blends seem to smell similar to ones I've made before.

Part of the problem is I get enamoured with one or more essences, or a chord,

and want to use it to its fullest, or do variations on a theme, there are are

also essences that might do interesting things, but perhaps because a lack of

imagination on my part, I couldn't imagine how I would use them and what I would

pair them up with.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Hi ,

> By muddy I meant the smell of them was a little unfocused...I wish it was only

> the general appearance!

> xo

>

> Ah,I see (despite any muddiness or murkiness ) I've heard sometimes that

>happens when too many essences are used, but I've also heard from some NP'ers

>that the 0nly way to make a full, complex perfume is to use a lot of essences.

>I stand somewhere in the middle. I've had the experience of my blends smelling

>too bland the more I've added, but I cant seem to streamline TOO much. I

usually

>have four to five essences in a chord. Mandy Aftel reccomends using only three

>for each one. Usually the amount of essences I use per blend is anywhere from

>12 to 15. Any more and I do find that it gets muddy, unpronounced, and kind of

>flat.

My problems are usually not with murkiness, but with sameness. Sometimes I feel

that a lot of my blends seem to smell similar to ones I've made before. Part of

the problem is I get enamoured with one or more essences, or a chord, and want

to use it to its fullest, or do variations on a theme, there are are also

essences that might do interesting things, but perhaps because a lack of

imagination on my part, I couldn't imagine how I would use them and what I would

pair them up with.

>

>

Hi again ,

Thanks for your response and sharing of your experiences...

I have an issue with 'sameness' too. I've centered a couple of my perfumes

around similar base and heart chords and mainly changed the top notes which does

change them quite a bit initially but then that same smell comes through. I'm

somewhat in awe of those I deem to be the professional natural perfumers as they

seem to create some very interesting and different compilations however, it's

funny, even though individually a fragrance from a particular perfumer can seem

quite unique, I've noticed that within each different set of samples I've

obtained from different people, there is a similarness to them all - a style I

guess it could be called. Just an overall effect that's present in the

collection but that can't - at least by me - be defined. I guess it's the

perfumers' personality coming though. So in having said that (rather

long-windedly....) maybe it's not such a bad thing to have a " sameness " in your

blends. I went a bit off the track with what you were saying but I understand

what you're getting at too...

Regarding the streamlining of essences to using around 3 per chord, I too have

much difficulty in sticking to that small number. I'm much too haphazard and

spontaneous in my selection and also a lot too inexperienced to know any better

I guess But considering my inexperience, I'm quite proud of what I've made

so far - even if they lack the professional edge. They're not terrible anyway

xo

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> > Ah,I see (despite any muddiness or murkiness ) I've heard

> sometimes that> >happens when too many essences are used, but I've also heard

from > some NP'ers

> >that the 0nly way to make a full, complex perfume is to use a lot of

> essences.> >I stand somewhere in the middle. I've had the experience of my

blends > smelling> >too bland the more I've added, but I cant seem to streamline

TOO > much. I usually

> >have four to five essences in a chord. Mandy Aftel reccomends using

> only three> >for each one. Usually the amount of essences I use per blend is >

anywhere from> >12 to 15. Any more and I do find that it gets muddy,

unpronounced, > and kind of> >flat.

>

From my experience, it is not the number of essences, but the skill in

choosing the right ones that make the difference.

Don't forget that when we are working with naturals, each ingredient we

use is in itself a complex, multi layered creation in it's own right.

And every time we add another oil or absolute, we add not one note, but

a multilayered complex of many different notes, each of which may clash

with any of the elements in the other essences.

Bland usually comes from useing essences that have elements that cancel

each other out.

I have found that some of the most beautiful perfumes I have created

have only have a handful of ingredients, that happen to compliment and

enhance each other perfectly.

The hardest part of the job is finding the exact match to create the

effect you want, and then finding the perfect balance so that the right

bits come to the forefront.

I wrote a more about this in a blogpost on the subject earlier this year:

http://perfumebynature.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html

Ambrosia

http://www.perfumebynature.com.au