Guest guest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 writes: << Only one treadmill company (this is not an advertisement) makes any attempt to remedy this problem - Bodyguard (from Canada.) Electronic Stride Control acts as what I refer to as a 'negative clutch' system - the more force you push against the belt, the more the belt slows (imperceptibly) on each stride. Forgive me if I've relayed this information incorrectly; I'm trying to say the treadmill can compensate for belt slippage. This is a function created to compensate for the higher horsepower necessary for larger users (250lbs+) but has the effect of providing a more realistic run for athletes.>> Great post--IF there is good equipment available how else are the rest of going to find out? Are there any treadmills you know of that will not shut down when a powerful athlete " pushes " against the tread, and the hand rail--like one would in pushing a car down the street? Are there any good passive(non motorized) treadmills where the user is tethered and by hip leg extension forces drives the tread? I would guess the passive treadmill would need to be " flywheeled " and speed controlled--of course how hard would it be to turn an electric motor into a generator on the same piece of " motorized " equipment. I'm a little surprised Mel hasn't done this-- [i periodically run for short periods on my own treadmill with the power switched off (holding the rails on either side), but have not taken the electrical output from this toy to power the lights in my gym Mel Siff] Jerry Telle Lakewood CO USA * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Mel Siff response to: Telle << how hard would it be to turn an electric motor into a generator on the same piece of " motorized " equipment. I'm a little surprised Mel hasn't done this-- Mel Siff commented: <<I periodically run for short periods on my own treadmill with the power switched off (holding the rails on either side), but have not taken the electrical output from this toy to power the lights in my gym >> You should be meditating with eyes closed anyway;-} As an interesting aside, I remember one family which interfaced the family bicycle or treadmill to a generator (and battery system?) so that in order for the kids to watch TV, they had to generate the energy. Too bad someone hasnt done this with computer games--there are few activities more demanding then motocross or maybe even Indy car driving or fighter aircraft piloting without power controls--or all those demanding fringe activities--skate boards, miniature bikes?? And surprise, surprise, a good 20 mnutes of immensely enjoyable anaerobic activity results in youthful hormones going through the roof! There is *no* better way than a strong euphoric sensory emotional to link process with outcome - and since their couch potato parents refuse to exercise--the kids will think its their idea;-}.. Of course the parents will soon be vying for time which may lead to teen rejection! I mean how " cool " is it to enjoy the same activity as ones parents? Who will have to have their own " private " setup anyway. On the other hand maybe the natural euphoria will be so high that all(some) teen/parent dissonance will be ameliorated? Once again MILO saves the day--*lifting bull brings family's together(SIC)* I hesitate to mention other high energy activities!! Golf simulators indicate performance--why not have the same for handball, racquet ball? those " goofy " video replications for bicycling never did much for me--but its the same genre concept--white water kyacking, mountain bicking with a multi plane biker(banking would be a bit of a problem ) unless the carriage swung from side to side in a parabolic manner creating lateral forces? Mel, how do you monitor exercise effect? RPE's? I have forever had misgivings about this method for nieve, post trauma cardiac exercisers. [Via the objective use of heart rate and EKG combined with RPE - and sometimes blodb pressure in between series of exercises or sessions on the treadmill. Mel Siff] On commercial gym treadmills when the exerciser turns the system into a generator, most will shut down and offer little resistance. --is this true in your experience ?--and are you familiar with the " Tread Sled " from Athletic--(952)922-8471 that Joe Dowdell mentioned? I havent accessed info on the " tread sled " yet but I'm willing to bet the concept is a " wave " of the future? [When I was in Moscow about 12 years ago, I visited Dr Ratov's laboratory and he had a treadmill with elastic bands attached, as well as an overhead harness suspension system to modulate the reaction force on the body (the athlete was lifted slightly if force had to be decreased). Some years afterwards, I noticed that a variety of Western manufacturers were making their copies of such systems. Mel Siff] Jerry Telle lakewood CO USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Hi Supertrainers, The information those of you have sent is appreciated. But my basic premise to the question I asked hasn1t been answered (unless I overlooked it). Will uphill running on a treadmill increase the risk of hamstring pulls when the athlete returns to sprinting, cutting and braking on the flat athletic surface? Are there studies to support either way? If not, your experiences and thoughts would be appreciated. By basic thought is " yes it will. " I can't scientifically support with studies why but the braking action and time, involvement of the hamstrings is different running uphill, be it on a treadmill or actual hill, than on the flat surface and adding the cutting/agility elements. Also, full sprinting uphill is slower than what one can sprint on a flat surface. So, these forces, reactive forces and braking times will all add to the injury risk equation. I also feel that doing hamstring training of the bodybuilding style leg curl only, increases injury risk in athletic environments. I feel they are better trained with some hip flexion and femur 'rotation' at the pelvis, such as Dick Hartzel of Jumpstretch and Jerry Telle with his Tellekinetics teaches. Of course variables such as tempos and intensities should be manipulated. I welcome any good constructive input. And please don't write back asking me questions. If I had the answers, I wouldn't post the question. I appreciate your feedback. Jeff Libengood Tokyo, Japan ----------- wrote: > Concerning the current thread; > > A factor that shouldn't be overlooked with treadmill use is that of > perceived benefit gained vs. actual benefit. > > As a sometimes treadmill service person, I'd like to point out that > any treadmill in the world has a degree of 'slip' to the belt - > meaning you're always pushing the belt faster than the motor is, > slightly akin to sprinting in silk slippers. The resistance of the > belt against your stride is less than the real ground, requiring less > force to maintain a higher pace. For this reason, many mistakenly > believe that running at a slight incline on a treadmill will overcome > this drawback - however, inclining the treadmill will increase the > rate of belt silppage. > > Only one treadmill company (this is not an advertisement) makes any > attempt to remedy this problem - Bodyguard (from Canada.) Electronic > Stride Control acts as what I refer to as a 'negative clutch' system - > the more force you push against the belt, the more the belt slows > (imperceptibly) on each stride. Forgive me if I've relayed this > information incorrectly; I'm trying to say the treadmill can > compensate for belt slippage. This is a function created to > compensate for the higher horsepower necessary for larger users > (250lbs+) but has the effect of providing a more realistic run for > athletes. > > HR training is another topic: Life Fitness, in my opinion, realizes > the best programming available in this area. > > Speed - Woodway, though I've never used one, will operate at > sprinting velocity with less risk than most. * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Jerry Telle wrote: <, Is this true in your experience ?--and are you familiar with the " Tread Sled " from Athletic- that Joe Dowdell mentioned? I havent accessed info on the " tread sled " yet but I'm willing to bet the concept is a " wave " of the future?> ** Absolutely true, Jerry. If trying to push on a treadmill belt at a faster rate than the motor is turning, most treadmills will shut down as a safety precaution, or give some sort of error message. Since most commercial facilities run Life Fitness, True/Trotter, Cybex, or PreCor, it's a fairly safe assumption that the treadmills most have seen WILL shut down if the belt is pushed with hands braced on the handlebar. The treadmill will usually determine a backflow of current to the motor and/or controller board and shut down as a precautionary measure. As for the 'tread sled,' I haven't seen the concept built into a treadmill before, though I have seen and used methods as we discussed using rubber tubing for resistance. My worry: wouldn't necessitating the use of force against a rigid piece of the machine take the body out of its " normal " running posture? Perhaps I've read the description incorrectly. As for treadmills as generators, I haven't seen any new developments in this area. Antiquated prototypes required a LOT of force just to generate a small amount of electricity. Major developers won't research more efficient models because the public just doesn't want exercise to be HARD. As for the original question, that of risk of hamstring injury following the transition from treadmill to track, I offer only opinion, unsupported by research: by generating sustainable near- maximal pace against lower resistance than one would encounter on the track, you may lower the inhibition threshold enough that the transfer to the higher-resistance-bearing track would cause the CNS some confusion. How's THAT for conjecture AND a run-on sentence? Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Jerry Telle wrote: > Well run onto this conjecture--the reason " that risk of hamstring injury > following the transition from treadmill to track " is possibly greater is > because motor driven treadmills are basically hip flexor activities and track > running much more hip extension? > > Do any institutional models offer better resistance when they are shut off and > pushed against, like Mel will do on his treadmill in his home gym? **** Jerry, Woodway is just starting to produce a treadmill called the Force. I'm not even sure if its on their website yet. It is a non-motorized treadmill with a tether attachment in the rear. Not only can it be self propelled, but a resistance can be added for additional load. Their 2nd generation model will likely incorporate a load cell in the tether and computerized software. I think this will open up some exciting possibilities for training since we may be able to incorporate measurement and feedback and the athlete can work on running technique in one place where a coach can stand or video be used. Ken Vick The Performance Edge Redondo Beach, CA USA * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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