Guest guest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 It's not impossible to loose fat and gain muscle. > > I've heard recently that it is impossible for fat loss and muscle gain > at the same time. That being said, how do I maximize my fat loss > throughout my next challenge. I " feel " some muscle underneath > (especially in my quads and obliques, oddly enough), but there is a ton > of fat covering it. > > > > Deb > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Actually, you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Nearly all of us have done it. Some people say that it's a beginner's phenomenon, but it happens whenever you're placing lots of new demands on your body, very challenging lifting, mega-calorie burning. For a beginner, any exercise program will do it. Once you've been training for awhile, it's not so easy because you're used to regular and strenuous exercise. You don't get that magical " newbie " adaptation going on unless you're doing something crazy. So, at some point, most people have to choose which to focus on, because you build muscle most efficiently with a calorie surplus, and you lose fat most efficiently with a deficit. It's not impossible to do both at once, it's just not easy. If you want to maximize fat loss, it's all about your nutrition. It doesn't matter how great your workouts are if you're not coming up with a calorie deficit every week. You can't out train a bad diet, but a consistently good diet can result in steady fat loss even with missed or iffy workouts. And of course if you put it all together - clean eating, challenging weights, intense interval cardio - fat will fly. If you want to dial in the nutrition, here are some suggestions: Do You Want to Lean Out or Swell Up? http://www.skwigg.com/id55.html Changing the Rules of Good Nutrition http://www.skwigg.com/id82.html > I've heard recently that it is impossible for fat loss and muscle gain > at the same time. That being said, how do I maximize my fat loss > throughout my next challenge. I " feel " some muscle underneath > (especially in my quads and obliques, oddly enough), but there is a ton > of fat covering it. > > > > Deb > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Who started that stupid myth, anyway? It's pretty obvious from all the before/after transformations in various programs that fat-loss and muscle growth most definitely can happen simultaneously. You just gotta follow the rules. Naomi ****** Skwigg wrote: > > Actually, you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Nearly all of > us have done it. Some people say that it's a beginner's phenomenon, but it > happens whenever you're placing lots of new demands on your body, very > challenging lifting, mega-calorie burning. For a beginner, any exercise > program will do it. Once you've been training for awhile, it's not so easy > because you're used to regular and strenuous exercise. You don't get that > magical " newbie " adaptation going on unless you're doing something > crazy. So, at some point, most people have to choose which to focus on, > because you build muscle most efficiently with a calorie surplus, and you > lose fat most efficiently with a deficit. It's not impossible to do > both at > once, it's just not easy. > <http://www.skwigg.com/id82.html> > > > > Recent Activity > > * > 11 > New Members > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZjkyc\ W8wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA\ 3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDEyODc3MDk-> > * > 3 > New Photos > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbnVwZmp\ zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ waG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMDEyODc3MDk-> > * > 1 > New Links > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJncnQ5ZWJ\ 1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ saW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjAxMjg3NzA5> > > Visit Your Group > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2;_ylc=X3oDMTJla2w0bmxnBF9TA\ zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc\ 3RpbWUDMTIwMTI4NzcwOQ--> > > Yahoo! Health > > Healthy Aging > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12mhpgp3g/M=493064.12016303.12582636.9706571/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201294910/A=5191950/R=0/SIG=12ekfsqmu/*http:/\ /health.yahoo.com/aging-overview/healthy-aging/healthwise--tn9719.html> > > Improve your > > quality of life. > > Meditation and > > Lovingkindness > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12m60ihkn/M=493064.12016231.12582634.9706571/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201294910/A=5191951/R=0/SIG=11iiaadso/*http:/\ /new.groups.yahoo.com/giftoflovingkindness> > > A Yahoo! Group > > to share and learn. > > Lawn & Garden > > on Yahoo! Groups > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12mg05snl/M=493064.12117566.12537396.8674578/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201294910/A=5170414/R=0/SIG=11btjb8oo/*http:/\ /new.groups.yahoo.com/craftsmanlawn> > > For all things > > green and growing. > > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 > Who started that stupid myth, anyway? I believe someone on this list said it within the last week or so. Perhaps they *really* meant to say something differently, but I know at the time it struck me as something I'd never heard before. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 It is tough to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Not impossible, but tough. One requires a deficiency of calories, the other requires a surplus. Your body burns fat at a certain rate and if you get over that rate, you're doing cardio work. So it isn't really a stupid myth. For many it can be a truth. The magic is crossing the abyss and achieving both. On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:39:49 -0700 " Dana Worley " wrote: > >> Who started that stupid myth, anyway? > > I believe someone on this list said it within the last week or so. > Perhaps they *really* meant to say something differently, but I know > at the time it struck me as something I'd never heard before. > > Dana Doc www.pinkbunnyears.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Please, since I created the confusion, let me try to clear up my poorly quoted segment from Tom Venuto's FABULOUS e-book Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle (A highly recommended read.) FOR ME, it answered what happened with my body composition quite accurately. Please, allow me to quote him....he goes on to explain how to do both at the same time, but he is clear that it is the " most difficult of goals " and he stresses the importance in goal setting to " #7: Make sure your goals are not conflicting. " Here is the quote, more accurately written (Pg 12 Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle): " In the case of fat loss, the most common conflicitng goal is trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. It's common to see a large increase in lean body mass accompanied by a slight decrease in body fat. But one thing you will almost never see is a large increase in lean body mass and a large decrease in body fat simultaneously. It is physiologically impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same precise moment in time. One process is catabolic and one is anabolic. Therefore, there are big differences in the types of nutritional programs you need to acheive each of these contrasting goals. Over a period of weeks or months it is certaintly possible to see a net gain in muscle and a net decrease in body fat. However, that result is alternating back and forth between short periods of caloric deficit with short periods of caloric surplus. " (End of quote pg 13, Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle by Tom Venuto) Sorry for the confusion.....I did mention that I did not " zig zag " calories, but stayed in the deficit almost the entire time. Get the book, it really answers lots of questions and it is an amazingly easy read.....Thanks for sugesting it! " Osorio, Debbie " wrote: I've heard recently that it is impossible for fat loss and muscle gain at the same time. That being said, how do I maximize my fat loss throughout my next challenge. I " feel " some muscle underneath (especially in my quads and obliques, oddly enough), but there is a ton of fat covering it. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 So, Venuto started that one, eh? > One process is catabolic and one is anabolic. Therefore, there are big > differences in the types of nutritional programs you need to acheive > each of these contrasting goals. Over a peri! od of weeks or months it is > certaintly possible to see a net gain in muscle and a net decrease in > body fat. However, that result is alternating back and forth between > short periods of caloric deficit with short periods of caloric surplus. I think the crucial part where I disagree with him is in what period of time you can alternate between being catabolic and anabolic. He seems to imply that you're doing one for a period of days, then switch to the other for a period of days. From my experience and that of others, I think that it can happen on a *daily* basis. I think this is why the system of eating the majority of carbs in the morning (around your workout) and having a post-workout shake, and then severely restricting carbs in the second half of the day, works. You have the excess in the morning, then the deficit in the evening. Naomi One more thing, not just about this thread but many others--Many people seem to equate disagreement with yelling and screaming and arguing. It IS possible to have civil debate without bringing emotions into it. Disagreement is good! Tammy Heitzman wrote: > > Please, since I created the confusion, let me try to clear up my > poorly quoted segment from Tom Venuto's FABULOUS e-book Burn the Fat, > Feed the Muscle (A highly recommended read.) FOR ME, it answered what > happened with my body composition quite accurately. > Please, allow me to quote him....he goes on to explain how to do both > at the same time, but he is clear that it is the " most difficult of > goals " and he stresses the importance in goal setting to " #7: Make > sure your goals are not conflicting. " Here is the quote, more > accurately written (Pg 12 Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle): " In the case > of fat loss, the most common conflicitng goal is trying to gain muscle > and lose fat at the same time. It's common to see a large increase in > lean body mass accompanied by a slight decrease in body fat. But one > thing you will almost never see is a large increase in lean body mass > and a large decrease in body fat simultaneously. It is physiologically > impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same precise moment in > time. One process is catabolic and one is anabolic. Therefore, there > are big differences in the types of nutritional programs you need to > acheive each of these contrasting goals. Over a peri! od of weeks or > months it is > certaintly possible to see a net gain in muscle and a net decrease in > body fat. However, that result is alternating back and forth between > short periods of caloric deficit with short periods of caloric > surplus. " (End of quote pg 13, Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle by Tom > Venuto) Sorry for the confusion.....I did mention that I did not " zig > zag " calories, but stayed in the deficit almost the entire time. Get > the book, it really answers lots of questions and it is an amazingly > easy read.....Thanks for sugesting it! > > " Osorio, Debbie " <dosorio@... > <mailto:dosorio%40landstar.com>> wrote: > I've heard recently that it is impossible for fat loss and muscle gain > at the same time. That being said, how do I maximize my fat loss > throughout my next challenge. I " feel " some muscle underneath > (especially in my quads and obliques, oddly enough), but there is a ton > of fat covering it. > > Deb > > Recent Activity > > * > 10 > New Members > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNDBuc\ 2RoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA\ 3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDE0MTIxOTY-> > * > 3 > New Photos > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNW4xbWM\ 3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ waG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMDE0MTIxOTY-> > * > 1 > New Links > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnMzk1ZGs\ 4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ saW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjAxNDEyMTk2> > > Visit Your Group > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2;_ylc=X3oDMTJlODlkcnYyBF9TA\ zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc\ 3RpbWUDMTIwMTQxMjE5Ng--> > > Meditation and > > Lovingkindness > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12meigjov/M=493064.12016231.12582634.9706571/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201419396/A=5191951/R=0/SIG=11iiaadso/*http:/\ /new.groups.yahoo.com/giftoflovingkindness> > > A Yahoo! Group > > to share and learn. > > Yahoo! Health > > Healthy Aging > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12m62pje3/M=493064.12016303.12582636.9706571/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201419396/A=5191950/R=0/SIG=12ekfsqmu/*http:/\ /health.yahoo.com/aging-overview/healthy-aging/healthwise--tn9719.html> > > Improve your > > quality of life. > > Move More > > on Yahoo! Groups > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ns8h89g/M=493064.12016299.12445691.11322765/D=grp\ health/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201419396/A=4990216/R=0/SIG=11d53kq3t/*http:\ //advision.webevents.yahoo.com/curves/> > > This is your life > > not a phys-ed class. > > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 Hi, I don't think he would disagree with you. He simply states that " This is the most difficult of all the goals and it is slow and inefficient process. You are compromising your results in both departments if you set muscle gain and fat loss as simultaneous goals.........Get the fat off first, then set your new goal for gaining muscle while staying lean. " I don't think anyone would disagree with how difficult it is to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Everyone's body type is different. Just because muscle isn't GAINED, doesn't mean that the same muscle mass doesn't transform.....it does, it becomes stronger, more shapely, and more evident (once the layers of fat are removed). It confused me that I didn't " gain " more lean body mass, but once I read his book it explained the " why. " It is good to know that we can get stronger and more shapely even if the muscle mass doesn't follow. Following the nutritional program and working out will shed the fat, and improve strength, and make the exsisting muscle much more attractive. What I took from Venuto was be clear on what your goals are, stay on track, and don't get frustrated if your seeing more fat loss than muscle gain....he is affirming the difficulty of setting two goals simultaneously. I think for most of us starting the BFL we do want to get the extra layers of fat off first. Once you begin to see the muscle you already have and use it more efficiantly, then it is fun to set that second goal to to build more of it. What I saw with most of the BFL female champions was what he explains --- a large decrease in body fat accompanied by a slight increase in lean body mass (the 35 year old winner for 2006: Lost 21 pounds of fat--- gained 2.5 pounds of lean muscle). The point, I think. is that the fat loss will far exceed the lean muscle gain initially. But for most of us, that is the point....we want to see the muscle that is underneath, and keep it while creating that deficit to shed those extra layers of fat. DRAGONMAMMA wrote: So, Venuto started that one, eh? > One process is catabolic and one is anabolic. Therefore, there are big > differences in the types of nutritional programs you need to acheive > each of these contrasting goals. Over a peri! od of weeks or months it is > certaintly possible to see a net gain in muscle and a net decrease in > body fat. However, that result is alternating back and forth between > short periods of caloric deficit with short periods of caloric surplus. I think the crucial part where I disagree with him is in what period of time you can alternate between being catabolic and anabolic. He seems to imply that you're doing one for a period of days, then switch to the other for a period of days. From my experience and that of others, I think that it can happen on a *daily* basis. I think this is why the system of eating the majority of carbs in the morning (around your workout) and having a post-workout shake, and then severely restricting carbs in the second half of the day, works. You have the excess in the morning, then the deficit in the evening. Naomi One more thing, not just about this thread but many others--Many people seem to equate disagreement with yelling and screaming and arguing. It IS possible to have civil debate without bringing emotions into it. Disagreement is good! Tammy Heitzman wrote: > > Please, since I created the confusion, let me try to clear up my > poorly quoted segment from Tom Venuto's FABULOUS e-book Burn the Fat, > Feed the Muscle (A highly recommended read.) FOR ME, it answered what > happened with my body composition quite accurately. > Please, allow me to quote him....he goes on to explain how to do both > at the same time, but he is clear that it is the " most difficult of > goals " and he stresses the importance in goal setting to " #7: Make > sure your goals are not conflicting. " Here is the quote, more > accurately written (Pg 12 Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle): " In the case > of fat loss, the most common conflicitng goal is trying to gain muscle > and lose fat at the same time. It's common to see a large increase in > lean body mass accompanied by a slight decrease in body fat. But one > thing you will almost never see is a large increase in lean body mass > and a large decrease in body fat simultaneously. It is physiologically > impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same precise moment in > time. One process is catabolic and one is anabolic. Therefore, there > are big differences in the types of nutritional programs you need to > acheive each of these contrasting goals. Over a peri! od of weeks or > months it is > certaintly possible to see a net gain in muscle and a net decrease in > body fat. However, that result is alternating back and forth between > short periods of caloric deficit with short periods of caloric > surplus. " (End of quote pg 13, Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle by Tom > Venuto) Sorry for the confusion.....I did mention that I did not " zig > zag " calories, but stayed in the deficit almost the entire time. Get > the book, it really answers lots of questions and it is an amazingly > easy read.....Thanks for sugesting it! > > " Osorio, Debbie " <dosorio@... > <mailto:dosorio%40landstar.com>> wrote: > I've heard recently that it is impossible for fat loss and muscle gain > at the same time. That being said, how do I maximize my fat loss > throughout my next challenge. I " feel " some muscle underneath > (especially in my quads and obliques, oddly enough), but there is a ton > of fat covering it. > > Deb > > Recent Activity > > * > 10 > New Members > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNDBuc\ 2RoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA\ 3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDE0MTIxOTY-> > * > 3 > New Photos > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNW4xbWM\ 3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ waG90BHN0aW1lAzEyMDE0MTIxOTY-> > * > 1 > New Links > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnMzk1ZGs\ 4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ saW5rcwRzdGltZQMxMjAxNDEyMTk2> > > Visit Your Group > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bodyforlifewomensclub2;_ylc=X3oDMTJlODlkcnYyBF9TA\ zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzYyOTM4MjIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NjU1NDg4BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc\ 3RpbWUDMTIwMTQxMjE5Ng--> > > Meditation and > > Lovingkindness > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12meigjov/M=493064.12016231.12582634.9706571/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201419396/A=5191951/R=0/SIG=11iiaadso/*http:/\ /new.groups.yahoo.com/giftoflovingkindness> > > A Yahoo! Group > > to share and learn. > > Yahoo! Health > > Healthy Aging > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12m62pje3/M=493064.12016303.12582636.9706571/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201419396/A=5191950/R=0/SIG=12ekfsqmu/*http:/\ /health.yahoo.com/aging-overview/healthy-aging/healthwise--tn9719.html> > > Improve your > > quality of life. > > Move More > > on Yahoo! Groups > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ns8h89g/M=493064.12016299.12445691.11322765/D=grp\ health/S=1705655488:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1201419396/A=4990216/R=0/SIG=11d53kq3t/*http:\ //advision.webevents.yahoo.com/curves/> > > This is your life > > not a phys-ed class. > > . > > --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Based on what I've read...here is what I'm thinking. Challenge #1 - focus on fat loss (calorie deficit) Challenge #2 - focus on lean mass (no deficit) After this...I will reevaluate, to see where I'm at, and where I'm headed. Debbie Osorio ________________________________ From: bodyforlifewomensclub2 [mailto:bodyforlifewomensclub2 ] On Behalf Of Tammy Heitzman Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 11:38 PM To: bodyforlifewomensclub2 Subject: Re: Need Tips on Fat loss Please, since I created the confusion, let me try to clear up my poorly quoted segment from Tom Venuto's FABULOUS e-book Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle (A highly recommended read.) FOR ME, it answered what happened with my body composition quite accurately. Please, allow me to quote him....he goes on to explain how to do both at the same time, but he is clear that it is the " most difficult of goals " and he stresses the importance in goal setting to " #7: Make sure your goals are not conflicting. " Here is the quote, more accurately written (Pg 12 Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle): " In the case of fat loss, the most common conflicitng goal is trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. It's common to see a large increase in lean body mass accompanied by a slight decrease in body fat. But one thing you will almost never see is a large increase in lean body mass and a large decrease in body fat simultaneously. It is physiologically impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same precise moment in time. One process is catabolic and one is anabolic. Therefore, there are big differences in the types of nutritional programs you need to acheive each of these contrasting goals. Over a perio d of weeks or months it is certaintly possible to see a net gain in muscle and a net decrease in body fat. However, that result is alternating back and forth between short periods of caloric deficit with short periods of caloric surplus. " (End of quote pg 13, Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle by Tom Venuto) Sorry for the confusion.....I did mention that I did not " zig zag " calories, but stayed in the deficit almost the entire time. Get the book, it really answers lots of questions and it is an amazingly easy read.....Thanks for sugesting it! " Osorio, Debbie " <dosorio@... <mailto:dosorio%40landstar.com> > wrote: I've heard recently that it is impossible for fat loss and muscle gain at the same time. That being said, how do I maximize my fat loss throughout my next challenge. I " feel " some muscle underneath (especially in my quads and obliques, oddly enough), but there is a ton of fat covering it. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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