Guest guest Posted July 14, 2012 Report Share Posted July 14, 2012 Everyone knows the perils of going together as a group and leaving a particular insurance company or auditing organization like ASHN/CHP/UNUM etc. We could be held up to a class action suit for going together and leaving as a whole group. While it would be great on paper, getting this done would be almost impossible, because there is always someone out there thinking this would be a boon for their business if they had a sudden rash of new patients to treat. While my clinic does contract with these companies, we only schedule them sparingly. I try not fill my day with low ball insurances. Like I said before, I am in no way, shape or form suggesting we do this as a group. Ron Grice, DC Albany, OR Hey , why tip toe around the subject of ASHN? Just come on out and say what you really think of this group. Just kidding!!! I agree with all that you say but I nevertheless just rejoined ASHN after several patients begged me doggedly to join them. I am not sure how long I will last with them but letters such as yours don't help my already feeble resolve. Elliot, we have tough choice here. I certainly would understand if you give these guys the boot. Schneider DC PDX On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 12:00 PM, spbkchiro97132 wrote: Dr. Elliot: I think that you are way too advanced, intelligent, holistic and experienced as a healer of human beings to be contracted with that organization. Why? Let's be real, ASHN views you (and all of us) as " mechanical-non-complicated-lowback-pain-mitigatng-spinal-manipulating-robot-technicians". DCs are just a replaceable mindless commodity to them and so are the patients for that matter. If you contract with them and you want to help people in the most rational way possible, you will always be frustrated by their robotic machinations(and so will the patient). ASHN is the Mcs of chiropractic. Look, we DCs are not idiots, we understand there has to be a way to reasonably control costs, etc. but ASHNs approach of short-leash/micro-managed/fake-science-based-protocols is affront to any and all but the most naive/inexperienced chiros out there. Yet, DCs keep signing up with them?!?! "We have met the enemy, it is us". On balance, ASHN has been a terribly destructive force upon our profession, eroding quality, narrowing-scope, limiting-authority, cheapening and dumbing -down the art and science of chiropractic. I was with them for about 60 days about 8ish years ago so I have first-hand experience. I joined out of a combo of : fear, ignorance and patients-begging-me like most DCs do. That 60 days was long enough to learn what a low-quality outfit they were, so I quit. I couldn't stand the goofy requirements and non-science-based protocols from the start, but what put me over the edge was when they refused to pay for care for 15 year old kid. I guess they had a policy of no chiro care for people under 17 at that time, not sure if they still do. My humble opinion. I guess I just don't like being treated as if I am a crook and/or mentally-disabled. If anyone ever invents a "chirobot", ASHN will be the first to utilize it. ;-) Good luck. > > We've become increasingly frustrated with ASHN. They seem to tell us one thing about patient benefits but never live up to it and they have lots of extra forms. Anyone else share this frustration? We are getting close to dropping out. If you prefer you can contact me on or off the list. > Sincerly, > Elliott Mantell DC > -- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Listmates, I don't think we are looking at the root cause of our current situation. As long as our schools continue to graduate dozens of new D.C.'s twice a year (all of them with large debt) who are trying to get started in practice and saturating our communities without any consideration of need, this problem will only get worse! As a result the ins. cos. can have their pick from ( the many financially stressed D.C.'s) that they will select to be on their panels and the compensation for D.C. care will continue to be at a lower level than the other professions. Herb Freeman D.C. Re: Re: ASH Everyone knows the perils of going together as a group and leaving a particular insurance company or auditing organization like ASHN/CHP/UNUM etc. We could be held up to a class action suit for going together and leaving as a whole group. While it would be great on paper, getting this done would be almost impossible, because there is always someone out there thinking this would be a boon for their business if they had a sudden rash of new patients to treat. While my clinic does contract with these companies, we only schedule them sparingly. I try not fill my day with low ball insurances. Like I said before, I am in no way, shape or form suggesting we do this as a group. Ron Grice, DCAlbany, OR Hey , why tip toe around the subject of ASHN? Just come on out and say what you really think of this group. Just kidding!!! I agree with all that you say but I nevertheless just rejoined ASHN after several patients begged me doggedly to join them. I am not sure how long I will last with them but letters such as yours don't help my already feeble resolve. Elliot, we have tough choice here. I certainly would understand if you give these guys the boot. Schneider DCPDX Dr. Elliot:I think that you are way too advanced, intelligent, holistic and experienced as a healer of human beings to be contracted with that organization. Why? Let's be real, ASHN views you (and all of us) as " mechanical-non-complicated-lowback-pain-mitigatng-spinal-manipulating-robot-technicians". DCs are just a replaceable mindless commodity to them and so are the patients for that matter. If you contract with them and you want to help people in the most rational way possible, you will always be frustrated by their robotic machinations(and so will the patient). ASHN is the Mcs of chiropractic. Look, we DCs are not idiots, we understand there has to be a way to reasonably control costs, etc. but ASHNs approach of short-leash/micro-managed/fake-science-based-protocols is affront to any and all but the most naive/inexperienced chiros out there. Yet, DCs keep signing up with them?!?! "We have met the enemy, it is us". On balance, ASHN has been a terribly destructive force upon our profession, eroding quality, narrowing-scope, limiting-authority, cheapening and dumbing -down the art and science of chiropractic. I was with them for about 60 days about 8ish years ago so I have first-hand experience. I joined out of a combo of : fear, ignorance and patients-begging-me like most DCs do. That 60 days was long enough to learn what a low-quality outfit they were, so I quit. I couldn't stand the goofy requirements and non-science-based protocols from the start, but what put me over the edge was when they refused to pay for care for 15 year old kid. I guess they had a policy of no chiro care for people under 17 at that time, not sure if they still do. My humble opinion. I guess I just don't like being treated as if I am a crook and/or mentally-disabled.If anyone ever invents a "chirobot", ASHN will be the first to utilize it. ;-)Good luck. >> We've become increasingly frustrated with ASHN. They seem to tell us one thing about patient benefits but never live up to it and they have lots of extra forms. Anyone else share this frustration? We are getting close to dropping out. If you prefer you can contact me on or off the list. > Sincerly, > Elliott Mantell DC>-- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Speaking about schools graduating DC's with large debt, my Alma Mater may close. Life West is down to 345 students. Eileen Machida, DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 , very well said. I too used to be on their panel and quickly realized what I was dealing with and got off.My trouble with ash and others like them, that just makes me crazy is that they don't have my education, they aren't taking into consideration ALL the variables of each case (current and past health and life style of patient that effects their chief complaint). AND More importantly they don't pay my malpractice insurance; so I just have a hard time with them telling me how to treat the patient in front of me!On an interesting note we have a patient with aetna or cigna or some group ins. Started tx in Jan of this year and we were told he had a deductible to meet etc..... Come to find out ash was under the group provider and because I am not in contract with them they denied all coverage.... Fine, the patient is paying the time-of-service discount and away we continue his treatment. So last week we get a payment in full from ash from his first treatment (7 months later)...... Well I hate writing checks back to ins companies and got on the phone to ash and you would have thought I would have been warmly received for catching their error but I got a grumpy person that said she needed to research this and would get back to me in 30 days........ Yeshhhhhhhhhhhh!And so it goes.........JudithSent from my iPadJudith E. Allan, DC PCOregon Natural Health Clinic333 S State St, V401Lake Oswego, OR 97034(inside Trainer's Club) Speaking about schools graduating DC's with large debt, my Alma Mater may close. Life West is down to 345 students. Eileen Machida, DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Herb, your point is well taken. No doubt the large number of new DC graduates with large loans is part of the challenge of choking off some of the disreputable HMO's. The solution is not so easy to come up with. How do you limit enrollment in Chiropractic colleges to meet the demand for doctors in the field? Maybe we should study the dental model. Schneider DCPDX Listmates, I don't think we are looking at the root cause of our current situation. As long as our schools continue to graduate dozens of new D.C.'s twice a year (all of them with large debt) who are trying to get started in practice and saturating our communities without any consideration of need, this problem will only get worse! As a result the ins. cos. can have their pick from ( the many financially stressed D.C.'s) that they will select to be on their panels and the compensation for D.C. care will continue to be at a lower level than the other professions. Herb Freeman D.C. Re: Re: ASH Everyone knows the perils of going together as a group and leaving a particular insurance company or auditing organization like ASHN/CHP/UNUM etc. We could be held up to a class action suit for going together and leaving as a whole group. While it would be great on paper, getting this done would be almost impossible, because there is always someone out there thinking this would be a boon for their business if they had a sudden rash of new patients to treat. While my clinic does contract with these companies, we only schedule them sparingly. I try not fill my day with low ball insurances. Like I said before, I am in no way, shape or form suggesting we do this as a group. Ron Grice, DCAlbany, OR Hey , why tip toe around the subject of ASHN? Just come on out and say what you really think of this group. Just kidding!!! I agree with all that you say but I nevertheless just rejoined ASHN after several patients begged me doggedly to join them. I am not sure how long I will last with them but letters such as yours don't help my already feeble resolve. Elliot, we have tough choice here. I certainly would understand if you give these guys the boot. Schneider DCPDX Dr. Elliot:I think that you are way too advanced, intelligent, holistic and experienced as a healer of human beings to be contracted with that organization. Why? Let's be real, ASHN views you (and all of us) as " mechanical-non-complicated-lowback-pain-mitigatng-spinal-manipulating-robot-technicians " . DCs are just a replaceable mindless commodity to them and so are the patients for that matter. If you contract with them and you want to help people in the most rational way possible, you will always be frustrated by their robotic machinations(and so will the patient). ASHN is the Mcs of chiropractic. Look, we DCs are not idiots, we understand there has to be a way to reasonably control costs, etc. but ASHNs approach of short-leash/micro-managed/fake-science-based-protocols is affront to any and all but the most naive/inexperienced chiros out there. Yet, DCs keep signing up with them?!?! " We have met the enemy, it is us " . On balance, ASHN has been a terribly destructive force upon our profession, eroding quality, narrowing-scope, limiting-authority, cheapening and dumbing -down the art and science of chiropractic. I was with them for about 60 days about 8ish years ago so I have first-hand experience. I joined out of a combo of : fear, ignorance and patients-begging-me like most DCs do. That 60 days was long enough to learn what a low-quality outfit they were, so I quit. I couldn't stand the goofy requirements and non-science-based protocols from the start, but what put me over the edge was when they refused to pay for care for 15 year old kid. I guess they had a policy of no chiro care for people under 17 at that time, not sure if they still do. My humble opinion. I guess I just don't like being treated as if I am a crook and/or mentally-disabled.If anyone ever invents a " chirobot " , ASHN will be the first to utilize it. ;-)Good luck. >> We've become increasingly frustrated with ASHN. They seem to tell us one thing about patient benefits but never live up to it and they have lots of extra forms. Anyone else share this frustration? We are getting close to dropping out. If you prefer you can contact me on or off the list. > Sincerly, > Elliott Mantell DC>-- Schneider DC PDX -- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Hi Bill, I think we have to bring in outside expertise just as we did when we had our schools inspected to gain federal recognition. Experts who can tell us just how many D.C.'s are needed in each locale and just how many areas have reached a saturation point. If the medics and dentists can do it we certainly can, it's unfair and cruel to promise these young people a bright future when so many previous grads are in serious financial straits. Herb To: hbf4747@...CC: rongrice@...; johncollinsdc@...; oregondcs From: portlandchiro1@...Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 14:32:52 -0700Subject: Re: Re: ASH Herb, your point is well taken. No doubt the large number of new DC graduates with large loans is part of the challenge of choking off some of the disreputable HMO's. The solution is not so easy to come up with. How do you limit enrollment in Chiropractic colleges to meet the demand for doctors in the field? Maybe we should study the dental model. Schneider DCPDX Listmates, I don't think we are looking at the root cause of our current situation. As long as our schools continue to graduate dozens of new D.C.'s twice a year (all of them with large debt) who are trying to get started in practice and saturating our communities without any consideration of need, this problem will only get worse! As a result the ins. cos. can have their pick from ( the many financially stressed D.C.'s) that they will select to be on their panels and the compensation for D.C. care will continue to be at a lower level than the other professions. Herb Freeman D.C. Re: Re: ASH Everyone knows the perils of going together as a group and leaving a particular insurance company or auditing organization like ASHN/CHP/UNUM etc. We could be held up to a class action suit for going together and leaving as a whole group. While it would be great on paper, getting this done would be almost impossible, because there is always someone out there thinking this would be a boon for their business if they had a sudden rash of new patients to treat. While my clinic does contract with these companies, we only schedule them sparingly. I try not fill my day with low ball insurances. Like I said before, I am in no way, shape or form suggesting we do this as a group. Ron Grice, DCAlbany, OR Hey , why tip toe around the subject of ASHN? Just come on out and say what you really think of this group. Just kidding!!! I agree with all that you say but I nevertheless just rejoined ASHN after several patients begged me doggedly to join them. I am not sure how long I will last with them but letters such as yours don't help my already feeble resolve. Elliot, we have tough choice here. I certainly would understand if you give these guys the boot. Schneider DCPDX Dr. Elliot:I think that you are way too advanced, intelligent, holistic and experienced as a healer of human beings to be contracted with that organization. Why? Let's be real, ASHN views you (and all of us) as " mechanical-non-complicated-lowback-pain-mitigatng-spinal-manipulating-robot-technicians". DCs are just a replaceable mindless commodity to them and so are the patients for that matter. If you contract with them and you want to help people in the most rational way possible, you will always be frustrated by their robotic machinations(and so will the patient). ASHN is the Mcs of chiropractic. Look, we DCs are not idiots, we understand there has to be a way to reasonably control costs, etc. but ASHNs approach of short-leash/micro-managed/fake-science-based-protocols is affront to any and all but the most naive/inexperienced chiros out there. Yet, DCs keep signing up with them?!?! "We have met the enemy, it is us". On balance, ASHN has been a terribly destructive force upon our profession, eroding quality, narrowing-scope, limiting-authority, cheapening and dumbing -down the art and science of chiropractic. I was with them for about 60 days about 8ish years ago so I have first-hand experience. I joined out of a combo of : fear, ignorance and patients-begging-me like most DCs do. That 60 days was long enough to learn what a low-quality outfit they were, so I quit. I couldn't stand the goofy requirements and non-science-based protocols from the start, but what put me over the edge was when they refused to pay for care for 15 year old kid. I guess they had a policy of no chiro care for people under 17 at that time, not sure if they still do. My humble opinion. I guess I just don't like being treated as if I am a crook and/or mentally-disabled.If anyone ever invents a "chirobot", ASHN will be the first to utilize it. ;-)Good luck. >> We've become increasingly frustrated with ASHN. They seem to tell us one thing about patient benefits but never live up to it and they have lots of extra forms. Anyone else share this frustration? We are getting close to dropping out. If you prefer you can contact me on or off the list. > Sincerly, > Elliott Mantell DC>-- Schneider DC PDX -- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Okay, then how do you deal with this one: I have a Medicare patient who has HealthNet for his Medivantage plan. I'm not enrolled with ASHN, but they keep sending me letters to complete all of their paperwork on the guy and do full exams on every visit. I've just been ignoring them, so of course the patient isn't getting reimbursed for the $30 per visit care he's paying for up front (I don't accept assignment). So will I get in hot water with Medicare for not complying with their requests for all of the BS paperwork, etc.? Lyndon McGill, D.C. EvolvHealth Wellness Advisory Council Member Salem, Oregon www.SalemSpineClinic.com www.EvolvingDaily.com > , very well said. I too used to be on their panel and > quickly realized what I was dealing with and got off. > > My trouble with ash and others like them, that just makes > me crazy is that they don't have my education, they aren't > taking into consideration ALL the variables of each case > (current and past health and life style of patient that > effects their chief complaint). AND More importantly they > don't pay my malpractice insurance; so I just have a hard > time with them telling me how to treat the patient in > front of me! > > On an interesting note we have a patient with aetna or > cigna or some group ins. Started tx in Jan of this year > and we were told he had a deductible to meet etc..... > Come to find out ash was under the group provider and > because I am not in contract with them they denied all > coverage.... Fine, the patient is paying the > time-of-service discount and away we continue his > treatment. So last week we get a payment in full from ash > from his first treatment (7 months later)...... Well I > hate writing checks back to ins companies and got on the > phone to ash and you would have thought I would have been > warmly received for catching their error but I got a > grumpy person that said she needed to research this and > would get back to me in 30 days........ Yeshhhhhhhhhhhh! > > And so it goes......... > > Judith > > Sent from my iPad > Judith E. Allan, DC PC > Oregon Natural Health Clinic > 333 S State St, V401 > Lake Oswego, OR 97034 > (inside Trainer's Club) > > > On Jul 15, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Eileen Machida > wrote: > > > Speaking about schools graduating DC's with large debt, > my Alma Mater may close. Life West is down to 345 > > students. > > Eileen Machida, DC > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 Herb, Will and colleagues, Ok it may very well be that we have two many strictly musculoskeletal only or find, adjust, fix and remove vertebral subluxation type health care providers. On the other hand we are very likely as an oppressed profession (by organized medicine) on the vanguard of a hugh opportunity as primary care providers of which there will never be enough of us. With the coming universal health care system here in Oregon with the non-discrimination provisions the OCA achieved which includes reimbursement among provider types we have the greatest probability of that level playing we have ever experienced in our profession's history. I truly believe the days of companies such as you have named with there disrespectful reimbursement rates for our profession will be gone by 2016. Will what the state of Oregon and our nation came up with that bing universal health care be better? It does have that potential but only time will tell us for sure. Nonetheless either as a group you muscle your way to the policy makers dinner table helping to creat the policies you will live under or you most assuredly will be on the menu. The American Chiropractic Association and the Oregon Chiropractic Association were there for you and yes you should all be members of both. So to many new chiropractic physicians practicing as primary care providers with all our drug free interventions? Nope me thinks. Vern Saboe ----- Vern Saboe, Jr, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO. 915 19th Ave SE Albany, OR 97322 phone: e-mail: vern@... website: www.drvernsaboe.com Hi Bill, I think we have to bring in outside expertise just as we did when we had our schools inspected to gain federal recognition. Experts who can tell us just how many D.C.'s are needed in each locale and just how many areas have reached a saturation point. If the medics and dentists can do it we certainly can, it's unfair and cruel to promise these young people a bright future when so many previous grads are in serious financial straits. Herb To: hbf4747@... CC: rongrice@...; johncollinsdc@...; oregondcs From: portlandchiro1@... Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 14:32:52 -0700 Subject: Re: Re: ASH Herb, your point is well taken. No doubt the large number of new DC graduates with large loans is part of the challenge of choking off some of the disreputable HMO's. The solution is not so easy to come up with. How do you limit enrollment in Chiropractic colleges to meet the demand for doctors in the field? Maybe we should study the dental model. Schneider DC PDX On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 8:32 AM, BERNICE FREEMAN wrote: Listmates, I don't think we are looking at the root cause of our current situation. As long as our schools continue to graduate dozens of new D.C.'s twice a year (all of them with large debt) who are trying to get started in practice and saturating our communities without any consideration of need, this problem will only get worse! As a result the ins. cos. can have their pick from ( the many financially stressed D.C.'s) that they will select to be on their panels and the compensation for D.C. care will continue to be at a lower level than the other professions. Herb Freeman D.C. Re: Re: ASH Everyone knows the perils of going together as a group and leaving a particular insurance company or auditing organization like ASHN/CHP/UNUM etc. We could be held up to a class action suit for going together and leaving as a whole group. While it would be great on paper, getting this done would be almost impossible, because there is always someone out there thinking this would be a boon for their business if they had a sudden rash of new patients to treat. While my clinic does contract with these companies, we only schedule them sparingly. I try not fill my day with low ball insurances. Like I said before, I am in no way, shape or form suggesting we do this as a group. Ron Grice, DC Albany, OR Hey , why tip toe around the subject of ASHN? Just come on out and say what you really think of this group. Just kidding!!! I agree with all that you say but I nevertheless just rejoined ASHN after several patients begged me doggedly to join them. I am not sure how long I will last with them but letters such as yours don't help my already feeble resolve. Elliot, we have tough choice here. I certainly would understand if you give these guys the boot. Schneider DC PDX On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 12:00 PM, spbkchiro97132 wrote: Dr. Elliot: I think that you are way too advanced, intelligent, holistic and experienced as a healer of human beings to be contracted with that organization. Why? Let's be real, ASHN views you (and all of us) as " mechanical-non-complicated-lowback-pain-mitigatng-spinal-manipulating-robot-technicians " . DCs are just a replaceable mindless commodity to them and so are the patients for that matter. If you contract with them and you want to help people in the most rational way possible, you will always be frustrated by their robotic machinations(and so will the patient). ASHN is the Mcs of chiropractic. Look, we DCs are not idiots, we understand there has to be a way to reasonably control costs, etc. but ASHNs approach of short-leash/micro-managed/fake-science-based-protocols is affront to any and all but the most naive/inexperienced chiros out there. Yet, DCs keep signing up with them?!?! " We have met the enemy, it is us " . On balance, ASHN has been a terribly destructive force upon our profession, eroding quality, narrowing-scope, limiting-authority, cheapening and dumbing -down the art and science of chiropractic. I was with them for about 60 days about 8ish years ago so I have first-hand experience. I joined out of a combo of : fear, ignorance and patients-begging-me like most DCs do. That 60 days was long enough to learn what a low-quality outfit they were, so I quit. I couldn't stand the goofy requirements and non-science-based protocols from the start, but what put me over the edge was when they refused to pay for care for 15 year old kid. I guess they had a policy of no chiro care for people under 17 at that time, not sure if they still do. My humble opinion. I guess I just don't like being treated as if I am a crook and/or mentally-disabled. If anyone ever invents a " chirobot " , ASHN will be the first to utilize it. ;-) Good luck. > > We've become increasingly frustrated with ASHN. They seem to tell us one thing about patient benefits but never live up to it and they have lots of extra forms. Anyone else share this frustration? We are getting close to dropping out. If you prefer you can contact me on or off the list. > Sincerly, > Elliott Mantell DC > -- Schneider DC PDX -- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 All, This is one reason that UWS (University of Western States) currently offers multiple degrees. It benefits students ability to capture job markets (they can apply for work at places other than chiropractic venues, while maintaining dual licenses. The BA and MA degrees are interchangable with other non-DC universities.) It benefits the longevity of the profession (grants DC degrees) and it benefits the survival of the teaching institution (captures more diverse needs in health care fields). Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I hold hope that by PR, Public interaction, Insurance Equality and other current directions in health care, our profession will capture more of the population. I've seen stats that show we (chiropractors) are capturing significantly less market than our MD counter parts. I don't recall the %. However, we are on the rise for public comsumption. Minga Guerrero DC abowoman@... Re: Re: ASH Speaking about schools graduating DC's with large debt, my Alma Mater may close. Life West is down to 345 students. Eileen Machida, DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 There’s only one solution to this problem and it’s having the ability to collectively bargain. Period. Perhaps that’s where we need to focus our efforts if we are indeed under the strong impression that these companies are detrimental to the entire profession. That being said, I would have no clue where to begin. On a side note. The one we’ve had the most frustration with is United/Optum.. I joined this at a patient’s request and have regretted it ever since. They require authorization on most of their patients, and then proffer up 3 visits at a time after additional paper work! ASHN used to require treatment plans for folks going over 5 visits, but now don’t require that if you’ve been a provider for a while. I also have “Priority” scheduling implemented and the front desk executes this dance for these folks. ph Medlin D.C. From: Grice Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 10:36 PM To: Schneider Cc: spbkchiro97132 ; oregondcs Subject: Re: Re: ASH Everyone knows the perils of going together as a group and leaving a particular insurance company or auditing organization like ASHN/CHP/UNUM etc. We could be held up to a class action suit for going together and leaving as a whole group. While it would be great on paper, getting this done would be almost impossible, because there is always someone out there thinking this would be a boon for their business if they had a sudden rash of new patients to treat. While my clinic does contract with these companies, we only schedule them sparingly. I try not fill my day with low ball insurances. Like I said before, I am in no way, shape or form suggesting we do this as a group. Ron Grice, DCAlbany, OR Hey , why tip toe around the subject of ASHN? Just come on out and say what you really think of this group. Just kidding!!! I agree with all that you say but I nevertheless just rejoined ASHN after several patients begged me doggedly to join them. I am not sure how long I will last with them but letters such as yours don't help my already feeble resolve. Elliot, we have tough choice here. I certainly would understand if you give these guys the boot. Schneider DCPDX Dr. Elliot:I think that you are way too advanced, intelligent, holistic and experienced as a healer of human beings to be contracted with that organization. Why? Let's be real, ASHN views you (and all of us) as " mechanical-non-complicated-lowback-pain-mitigatng-spinal-manipulating-robot-technicians". DCs are just a replaceable mindless commodity to them and so are the patients for that matter. If you contract with them and you want to help people in the most rational way possible, you will always be frustrated by their robotic machinations(and so will the patient). ASHN is the Mcs of chiropractic. Look, we DCs are not idiots, we understand there has to be a way to reasonably control costs, etc. but ASHNs approach of short-leash/micro-managed/fake-science-based-protocols is affront to any and all but the most naive/inexperienced chiros out there. Yet, DCs keep signing up with them?!?! "We have met the enemy, it is us". On balance, ASHN has been a terribly destructive force upon our profession, eroding quality, narrowing-scope, limiting-authority, cheapening and dumbing -down the art and science of chiropractic. I was with them for about 60 days about 8ish years ago so I have first-hand experience. I joined out of a combo of : fear, ignorance and patients-begging-me like most DCs do. That 60 days was long enough to learn what a low-quality outfit they were, so I quit. I couldn't stand the goofy requirements and non-science-based protocols from the start, but what put me over the edge was when they refused to pay for care for 15 year old kid. I guess they had a policy of no chiro care for people under 17 at that time, not sure if they still do. My humble opinion. I guess I just don't like being treated as if I am a crook and/or mentally-disabled.If anyone ever invents a "chirobot", ASHN will be the first to utilize it. ;-)Good luck. >> We've become increasingly frustrated with ASHN. They seem to tell us one thing about patient benefits but never live up to it and they have lots of extra forms. Anyone else share this frustration? We are getting close to dropping out. If you prefer you can contact me on or off the list. > Sincerly, > Elliott Mantell DC>-- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I avoiding being on this companies panel for some time. I did end up joining when opening a new practice because there are a large number of patients in this region who wanted us to be on. Initially it was a head ache. I generally do not have an issue with them. I write a treatment plan when I first see my patient I send the treatment plan in, I get approved for extra visits. Also the ACA requested paperwork and information on all companies asking for extra steps and paperwork to get patients treated. They are on top of this. So if you are an ACA member, make sure you send in the forms with them. Also make sure you talk to the insurance commisioner if there is an issue with payment. My first six months on the panel it was a head ache. I called and they were receptive, answered my questions and called me back. It is about understanding the contract and when to send in your treatment plan again. I would not want my day full of these types of patients but I do feel a need to offer care to the patients. I would rather be on the panel and talk with them about my issues professionally and calmly, filed complaints when needed vs not be on it. I feel as being part of it, I do have a voice to fix it. I know there are varied opinions out there, but that is why we have things like the ACA and the OCA to help with various issues. Just takes a little more work on my staff to help keep track of the number of visits for these patients, but ASHN is not the only company requesting these forms or pre-authorization. Just my two cents amont the many. Respectfully, Franchesca Vermillion, DCVermillion & Bloom, PCBalance & Fitness throughChiropractic Rehabilitation1750 Blankenship Rd Ste 295West Linn, OR 97068www.vermillionbloom.com To: hbf4747@...CC: portlandchiro1@...; oregondcs From: Vern@...Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 22:59:09 +0000Subject: Re: Re: ASH Herb, Will and colleagues, Ok it may very well be that we have two many strictly musculoskeletal only or find, adjust, fix and remove vertebral subluxation type health care providers. On the other hand we are very likely as an oppressed profession (by organized medicine) on the vanguard of a hugh opportunity as primary care providers of which there will never be enough of us. With the coming universal health care system here in Oregon with the non-discrimination provisions the OCA achieved which includes reimbursement among provider types we have the greatest probability of that level playing we have ever experienced in our profession's history. I truly believe the days of companies such as you have named with there disrespectful reimbursement rates for our profession will be gone by 2016. Will what the state of Oregon and our nation came up with that bing universal health care be better? It does have that potential but only time will tell us for sure. Nonetheless either as a group you muscle your way to the policy makers dinner table helping to creat the policies you will live under or you most assuredly will be on the menu. The American Chiropractic Association and the Oregon Chiropractic Association were there for you and yes you should all be members of both. So to many new chiropractic physicians practicing as primary care providers with all our drug free interventions? Nope me thinks. Vern Saboe ----- Vern Saboe, Jr, DC., DACAN., FICC., DABFP., FACO. 915 19th Ave SE Albany, OR 97322 phone: e-mail: vern@... website: www.drvernsaboe.com Hi Bill, I think we have to bring in outside expertise just as we did when we had our schools inspected to gain federal recognition. Experts who can tell us just how many D.C.'s are needed in each locale and just how many areas have reached a saturation point. If the medics and dentists can do it we certainly can, it's unfair and cruel to promise these young people a bright future when so many previous grads are in serious financial straits. Herb To: hbf4747@...CC: rongrice@...; johncollinsdc@...; oregondcs From: portlandchiro1@...Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 14:32:52 -0700Subject: Re: Re: ASH Herb, your point is well taken. No doubt the large number of new DC graduates with large loans is part of the challenge of choking off some of the disreputable HMO's. The solution is not so easy to come up with. How do you limit enrollment in Chiropractic colleges to meet the demand for doctors in the field? Maybe we should study the dental model. Schneider DCPDX Listmates, I don't think we are looking at the root cause of our current situation. As long as our schools continue to graduate dozens of new D.C.'s twice a year (all of them with large debt) who are trying to get started in practice and saturating our communities without any consideration of need, this problem will only get worse! As a result the ins. cos. can have their pick from ( the many financially stressed D.C.'s) that they will select to be on their panels and the compensation for D.C. care will continue to be at a lower level than the other professions. Herb Freeman D.C. Re: Re: ASH Everyone knows the perils of going together as a group and leaving a particular insurance company or auditing organization like ASHN/CHP/UNUM etc. We could be held up to a class action suit for going together and leaving as a whole group. While it would be great on paper, getting this done would be almost impossible, because there is always someone out there thinking this would be a boon for their business if they had a sudden rash of new patients to treat. While my clinic does contract with these companies, we only schedule them sparingly. I try not fill my day with low ball insurances. Like I said before, I am in no way, shape or form suggesting we do this as a group. Ron Grice, DCAlbany, OR Hey , why tip toe around the subject of ASHN? Just come on out and say what you really think of this group. Just kidding!!! I agree with all that you say but I nevertheless just rejoined ASHN after several patients begged me doggedly to join them. I am not sure how long I will last with them but letters such as yours don't help my already feeble resolve. Elliot, we have tough choice here. I certainly would understand if you give these guys the boot. Schneider DCPDX Dr. Elliot:I think that you are way too advanced, intelligent, holistic and experienced as a healer of human beings to be contracted with that organization. Why? Let's be real, ASHN views you (and all of us) as " mechanical-non-complicated-lowback-pain-mitigatng-spinal-manipulating-robot-technicians". DCs are just a replaceable mindless commodity to them and so are the patients for that matter. If you contract with them and you want to help people in the most rational way possible, you will always be frustrated by their robotic machinations(and so will the patient). ASHN is the Mcs of chiropractic. Look, we DCs are not idiots, we understand there has to be a way to reasonably control costs, etc. but ASHNs approach of short-leash/micro-managed/fake-science-based-protocols is affront to any and all but the most naive/inexperienced chiros out there. Yet, DCs keep signing up with them?!?! "We have met the enemy, it is us". On balance, ASHN has been a terribly destructive force upon our profession, eroding quality, narrowing-scope, limiting-authority, cheapening and dumbing -down the art and science of chiropractic. I was with them for about 60 days about 8ish years ago so I have first-hand experience. I joined out of a combo of : fear, ignorance and patients-begging-me like most DCs do. That 60 days was long enough to learn what a low-quality outfit they were, so I quit. I couldn't stand the goofy requirements and non-science-based protocols from the start, but what put me over the edge was when they refused to pay for care for 15 year old kid. I guess they had a policy of no chiro care for people under 17 at that time, not sure if they still do. My humble opinion. I guess I just don't like being treated as if I am a crook and/or mentally-disabled.If anyone ever invents a "chirobot", ASHN will be the first to utilize it. ;-)Good luck. >> We've become increasingly frustrated with ASHN. They seem to tell us one thing about patient benefits but never live up to it and they have lots of extra forms. Anyone else share this frustration? We are getting close to dropping out. If you prefer you can contact me on or off the list. > Sincerly, > Elliott Mantell DC>-- Schneider DC PDX -- Schneider DC PDX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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