Re: Strength Training for an Ironman

[Guest guest]

Gabe,

I would look into Kettelbell training for this person. As far as

increasing strength endurance and overall toughness it might be just

the ticket.They are very suitable for doing anywhere from 20-100 rep

sets,plus the permutations are endless.

Mark Reifkind

Training Director

Heptagon Individual Fitness

Palo Alto Ca

-- In Supertraining@y..., TJeeep@a... wrote:

> I'm looking for strength training program design ideas for an

Ironman competitor.

> I will be working with this competitor two times per week and we

are currently

> 10 months away from competition. My only job is the weight room

workouts for

> 2 hours per week. I plan to develop a periodized routine

eventually including Olympic

> lifts as well as other powerlifting exercises and variations. I do

not intend on working

> local muscular endurance in the gym. Does anyone have any useful

advice / practical

> experience? It seems to me that triathletes and Ironman

competitors are really

> behind the times when it comes to strength training. Looking

forward to some

> responses.

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Gabe Rinaldi

> Los Altos, CA

> CSCS, USA Weightlifting Club Coach

[Guest guest]

Triathlon Training in most cases does incorporate strength training. One only

needs to

preview a book by Friel, " The Triathlete's Bible " to see what is recommended.

A great resource which is used by many in the field.

M off DPM

The Training Wheel

Ohio

-------------

Gabe Rinaldi wrote:

<I'm looking for strength training program

design ideas for an Ironman competitor......... I plan to develop a

periodized routine eventually including Olympic lifts as well as

other powerlifting exercises and variations. I do not intend on

working local muscular endurance in the gym. Does anyone have any

useful advice / practical experience? It seems to me that

triathletes and Ironman competitors are really behind the times when

it comes to strength training.>

s wrote:

<<Gabe, I hope you don't think this response is flippant or sarcastic,

because it's not meant to be. It seems to me that you're a solution

in search of a problem. Once you figure out what the problem is, or

if there even is a problem, then your course of action will be fairly

straightforward.

Based on what you've written, it seems you understand that strength

training, compared with swimming, cycling and running workouts, will

not be as efficient or effective in developing the attributes of

local muscular endurance that will optimize this athlete's

performance. So I'm guessing that you want to use strength training

to enhance the athlete's ability to perform his or her sport-specific

training.

For example, if the athlete has a nagging backache caused by some

sort of muscular weakness, then curing the ache by strengthening the

affected muscles could enable the athlete to perform more sport-

specific training, or perform it at a higher intensity. Another

example: if the athlete has, or is at risk for, an injury caused by

running, and strength training would help cure or prevent that

injury, then the athlete will be able to run longer or faster.

In light of these considerations, it would seem that your role as a

strength coach is pretty straightforward. First, if the athlete

presents with complaints that are impairing the performance of sport-

specific training, and if those complaints can be addressed with

strength training, then you can start the athlete on an appropriate

routine.

If you don't know whether those complaints can be addressed with

strength training, or if you're not sure what the best routine would

be, then you can start asking (here or elsewhere) more specific

questions. After all, such routines can only be developed on a case-

by-case basis.

Second, if your only consideration is that the athlete is at risk for

injury (and that risk can be decreased via strength training), you've

got a couple of interesting problems, which can be summed up by the

old adage, " if it ain't broke, don't fix it. " In other words, an

attempt to prevent a non-existent problem may do more harm than good.

Any strength training program carries its own risk of injury, however

slight. Moreover, the time and energy spent on strength training

must necessarily detract from the athlete's maximal volume or

intensity of sport-specific training. That's because, if the athlete

has the spare time and energy to perform a weight training program,

then he or she could be using that time and energy to perform more

sport-specific training. How are you going to determine the risk-

reward and cost-benefit balances of any " injury preventative "

strength training program?

Let me give you a couple of real life examples drawn from my

experience and my wife's. This experience suggests that the cost-

benefit balances are best determined through trial and error, and

that the " balance point " shifts frequently, depending upon changes in

the intensity and volume of sport-specific training, as well as non-

athletic demands on time and physical and mental resources.

I'm a cyclist who sometimes races at the amateur level in local

masters events, and I sometimes suffer from plantar fasciitis. My

wife's a middle-distance runner who competes locally in Masters

events, and nationally and internationally in disabled-only events.

We each do some strength training, some for injury treatment (plantar

fasciitis for both of us, and also achilles tendinitis for her), and

some upper-body stuff that doesn't interfere with the endurance

training we perform with our legs. But the frequency, volume and

intensity changes constantly as we prepare for, or recover from,

competition. It also changes due to the demands we face at home and

at work.

Triathletes, who swim in addition to running and cycling, probably

have constraints similar to those of runners and cyclists. But

because swimming involves the upper body, it might be that

triathletes, unlike those of us who only run or only cycle, can't

perform any strength exercises that won't interfere with their

endurance training.

In light of all of the considerations discussed above, does it still

seem to you that triathletes are " behind the times " in terms of

strength training? It may be that your appropriate role as a

strength coach is to tell your client that he or she doesn't need to

do any strength training...or to offer some guidance as to basic,

multi-joint exercises that can be performed safely and quickly, and

allow the client to " go by feel " in terms of frequency, volume and

intensity.

*Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you

wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

Gabe Rinaldi wrote:

<I'm looking for strength training program

design ideas for an Ironman competitor......... I plan to develop a

periodized routine eventually including Olympic lifts as well as

other powerlifting exercises and variations. I do not intend on

working local muscular endurance in the gym. Does anyone have any

useful advice / practical experience? It seems to me that

triathletes and Ironman competitors are really behind the times when

it comes to strength training.>

Gabe, I hope you don't think this response is flippant or sarcastic,

because it's not meant to be. It seems to me that you're a solution

in search of a problem. Once you figure out what the problem is, or

if there even is a problem, then your course of action will be fairly

straightforward.

Based on what you've written, it seems you understand that strength

training, compared with swimming, cycling and running workouts, will

not be as efficient or effective in developing the attributes of

local muscular endurance that will optimize this athlete's

performance. So I'm guessing that you want to use strength training

to enhance the athlete's ability to perform his or her sport-specific

training.

For example, if the athlete has a nagging backache caused by some

sort of muscular weakness, then curing the ache by strengthening the

affected muscles could enable the athlete to perform more sport-

specific training, or perform it at a higher intensity. Another

example: if the athlete has, or is at risk for, an injury caused by

running, and strength training would help cure or prevent that

injury, then the athlete will be able to run longer or faster.

In light of these considerations, it would seem that your role as a

strength coach is pretty straightforward. First, if the athlete

presents with complaints that are impairing the performance of sport-

specific training, and if those complaints can be addressed with

strength training, then you can start the athlete on an appropriate

routine.

If you don't know whether those complaints can be addressed with

strength training, or if you're not sure what the best routine would

be, then you can start asking (here or elsewhere) more specific

questions. After all, such routines can only be developed on a case-

by-case basis.

Second, if your only consideration is that the athlete is at risk for

injury (and that risk can be decreased via strength training), you've

got a couple of interesting problems, which can be summed up by the

old adage, " if it ain't broke, don't fix it. " In other words, an

attempt to prevent a non-existent problem may do more harm than good.

Any strength training program carries its own risk of injury, however

slight. Moreover, the time and energy spent on strength training

must necessarily detract from the athlete's maximal volume or

intensity of sport-specific training. That's because, if the athlete

has the spare time and energy to perform a weight training program,

then he or she could be using that time and energy to perform more

sport-specific training. How are you going to determine the risk-

reward and cost-benefit balances of any " injury preventative "

strength training program?

Let me give you a couple of real life examples drawn from my

experience and my wife's. This experience suggests that the cost-

benefit balances are best determined through trial and error, and

that the " balance point " shifts frequently, depending upon changes in

the intensity and volume of sport-specific training, as well as non-

athletic demands on time and physical and mental resources.

I'm a cyclist who sometimes races at the amateur level in local

masters events, and I sometimes suffer from plantar fasciitis. My

wife's a middle-distance runner who competes locally in Masters

events, and nationally and internationally in disabled-only events.

We each do some strength training, some for injury treatment (plantar

fasciitis for both of us, and also achilles tendinitis for her), and

some upper-body stuff that doesn't interfere with the endurance

training we perform with our legs. But the frequency, volume and

intensity changes constantly as we prepare for, or recover from,

competition. It also changes due to the demands we face at home and

at work.

Triathletes, who swim in addition to running and cycling, probably

have constraints similar to those of runners and cyclists. But

because swimming involves the upper body, it might be that

triathletes, unlike those of us who only run or only cycle, can't

perform any strength exercises that won't interfere with their

endurance training.

In light of all of the considerations discussed above, does it still

seem to you that triathletes are " behind the times " in terms of

strength training? It may be that your appropriate role as a

strength coach is to tell your client that he or she doesn't need to

do any strength training...or to offer some guidance as to basic,

multi-joint exercises that can be performed safely and quickly, and

allow the client to " go by feel " in terms of frequency, volume and

intensity.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

" Triathlete's Training Bible " by Friel may be the most

comphrehensive book written on the subject. Think of it as

Supertraining for the Triathlete. You will find test for determining

athlete's strengths and weakness, heart rate training, swimming,

running,cycling workouts, peaking for competition and strength

training as well as other topics. Any bookstore should have it,

check it out.

Also in the Dec 2001 issue of Strength & Conditioning Journal there

is an article, " An Introduction to Periodization Training for the

Triathlete " . If you are a NSCA member, then you may find this on

NSCA website.

Other ideas: May want to spend some time working on core strength and

weak links (past injuries, ext. rotation of the shoulder,

dorisflexion) before hitting the heavey weights. Plyometrics may

work well during the power phase. Hope this helps.

Tom Rankin CSCS

Whippany, NJ

---------

Gabe Rinaldi wrote:

> <I'm looking for strength training program

> design ideas for an Ironman competitor......... I plan to develop a

> periodized routine eventually including Olympic lifts as well as

> other powerlifting exercises and variations. I do not intend on

> working local muscular endurance in the gym. Does anyone have any

> useful advice / practical experience? It seems to me that

> triathletes and Ironman competitors are really behind the times when

> it comes to strength training.>

s wrote:

> ....... Triathletes, who swim in addition to running and cycling, probably

> have constraints similar to those of runners and cyclists. But

> because swimming involves the upper body, it might be that

> triathletes, unlike those of us who only run or only cycle, can't

> perform any strength exercises that won't interfere with their

> endurance training.

>

> In light of all of the considerations discussed above, does it still

> seem to you that triathletes are " behind the times " in terms of

> strength training? It may be that your appropriate role as a

> strength coach is to tell your client that he or she doesn't need to

> do any strength training...or to offer some guidance as to basic,

> multi-joint exercises that can be performed safely and quickly, and

> allow the client to " go by feel " in terms of frequency, volume and

> intensity.

* Kindly sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them

to be published.

[Guest guest]

s wrote:

> Any strength training program carries its own risk of injury, however

> slight. Moreover, the time and energy spent on strength training

> must necessarily detract from the athlete's maximal volume or

> intensity of sport-specific training. That's because, if the athlete

> has the spare time and energy to perform a weight training program,

> then he or she could be using that time and energy to perform more

> sport-specific training.

This seems like an odd paradigm, in that you are assuming that every

last shred of the endurance athlete's time and energy must be spent

doing sport-specific training at all times. I seriously doubt that

this would be a good training regimen for anyone. If, like most

athletes, the triathletes in question have cycles or periods in their

training where they are not training at maximal volume, then they

should have some time and energy to spare for strength training.

> Triathletes, who swim in addition to running and cycling, probably

> have constraints similar to those of runners and cyclists. But

> because swimming involves the upper body, it might be that

> triathletes, unlike those of us who only run or only cycle, can't

> perform any strength exercises that won't interfere with their

> endurance training.

Every study I have ever seen showed that strength training does

not 'interfere' with endurance training, at least in terms

recuperation or performance outcomes. The only sense in

which 'interference' would be valid is in the above-mentioned

scenario you proposed, where the athletes are using 100% of their

available energy, time, and recuperative abilities to do sport-

specific volume training. If triathletes really train that way all

the time - allowing for no periodization or cycling down to lower

volumes for restoration or assistance training - then I would have to

agree that they are " behind the times " .

Wilbanks

ville, FL

* Kindly sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them

to be published.

[Guest guest]

Gabe Rinaldi wrote:

>>I'm looking for strength training program

>>design ideas for an Ironman competitor......... I plan to develop a

>>periodized routine eventually including Olympic lifts as well as

>>other powerlifting exercises and variations. I do not intend on

>>working local muscular endurance in the gym. Does anyone have any

>>useful advice / practical experience? It seems to me that

>>triathletes and Ironman competitors are really behind the times when

>>it comes to strength training.>

s wrote:

>Gabe, I hope you don't think this response is flippant or sarcastic,

>because it's not meant to be. It seems to me that you're a solution

>in search of a problem. Once you figure out what the problem is, or

>if there even is a problem, then your course of action will be fairly

>straightforward.

>

>Based on what you've written, it seems you understand that strength

>training, compared with swimming, cycling and running workouts, will

>not be as efficient or effective in developing the attributes of

>local muscular endurance that will optimize this athlete's

>performance. So I'm guessing that you want to use strength training

>to enhance the athlete's ability to perform his or her sport-specific

>training.

>

>For example, if the athlete has a nagging backache caused by some

>sort of muscular weakness, then curing the ache by strengthening the

>affected muscles could enable the athlete to perform more sport-

>specific training, or perform it at a higher intensity. Another

>example: if the athlete has, or is at risk for, an injury caused by

>running, and strength training would help cure or prevent that

>injury, then the athlete will be able to run longer or faster.

>

>In light of these considerations, it would seem that your role as a

>strength coach is pretty straightforward. First, if the athlete

>presents with complaints that are impairing the performance of sport-

>specific training, and if those complaints can be addressed with

>strength training, then you can start the athlete on an appropriate

>routine.

>

>If you don't know whether those complaints can be addressed with

>strength training, or if you're not sure what the best routine would

>be, then you can start asking (here or elsewhere) more specific

>questions. After all, such routines can only be developed on a case-

>by-case basis.

>

>Second, if your only consideration is that the athlete is at risk for

>injury (and that risk can be decreased via strength training), you've

>got a couple of interesting problems, which can be summed up by the

>old adage, " if it ain't broke, don't fix it. " In other words, an

>attempt to prevent a non-existent problem may do more harm than good.

>

>Any strength training program carries its own risk of injury, however

>slight. Moreover, the time and energy spent on strength training

>must necessarily detract from the athlete's maximal volume or

>intensity of sport-specific training. That's because, if the athlete

>has the spare time and energy to perform a weight training program,

>then he or she could be using that time and energy to perform more

>sport-specific training. How are you going to determine the risk-

>reward and cost-benefit balances of any " injury preventative "

>strength training program?

>

>Let me give you a couple of real life examples drawn from my

>experience and my wife's. This experience suggests that the cost-

>benefit balances are best determined through trial and error, and

>that the " balance point " shifts frequently, depending upon changes in

>the intensity and volume of sport-specific training, as well as non-

>athletic demands on time and physical and mental resources.

>

>I'm a cyclist who sometimes races at the amateur level in local

>masters events, and I sometimes suffer from plantar fasciitis. My

>wife's a middle-distance runner who competes locally in Masters

>events, and nationally and internationally in disabled-only events.

>We each do some strength training, some for injury treatment (plantar

>fasciitis for both of us, and also achilles tendinitis for her), and

>some upper-body stuff that doesn't interfere with the endurance

>training we perform with our legs. But the frequency, volume and

>intensity changes constantly as we prepare for, or recover from,

>competition. It also changes due to the demands we face at home and

>at work.

>

>Triathletes, who swim in addition to running and cycling, probably

>have constraints similar to those of runners and cyclists. But

>because swimming involves the upper body, it might be that

>triathletes, unlike those of us who only run or only cycle, can't

>perform any strength exercises that won't interfere with their

>endurance training.

>

>In light of all of the considerations discussed above, does it still

>seem to you that triathletes are " behind the times " in terms of

>strength training? It may be that your appropriate role as a

>strength coach is to tell your client that he or she doesn't need to

>do any strength training...or to offer some guidance as to basic,

>multi-joint exercises that can be performed safely and quickly, and

>allow the client to " go by feel " in terms of frequency, volume and

>intensity.

,

While you made some excellent points, and you clearly have considerable

experience in the training necessary for endurance competition as a cyclist,

there may be something you aren't aware of. Only recently, the benefits of

strength and power training for endurance athletes have been shown through

actual research, as well as through anecdotal evidence. While it does seem

counterproductive at first, one must consider that the strength and power

levels of endurance athletes who train ONLY endurance qualities are very

low. Improvements here can be dramatic and will improve swimming, biking,

and running economy, as the efforts are now easier by comparison. It is a

way of utilizing untapped potential, in a sense.

Clearly, one needs to be careful when choosing the exact approach to

strength and power training, but the benefits are now known.

Matt Stringer

San Diego, CA

*Kindly sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to

be published

[Guest guest]

M off wrote:

<Triathlon Training in most cases does incorporate strength

training. One only needs to preview a book by

Friel, 'The Triathlete's Bible' to see what is recommended.>

, as Tom Rankin, CSCS pointed out, Friel’s

book does far more than provide strength training

advice for triathletes. But it’s the other

stuff, not the strength training, that makes it a

great book. Friel presents (IMO) a very valuable

method for helping an athlete find the attributes

that limit performance. However, Friel’s

understanding of endurance training is deficient

in that he makes the mistake of advising his

readers that strength training will directly

improve local muscular endurance in trained

endurance athletes such as cyclists and

triathletes. I own Friel’s book on cycling

training, and I think it’s the best book on that

subject, but it’s not perfect.

I’m skeptical that " in most cases " triathlon

training incorporates strength training, but even

if it does, that’s not proof that those athletes

are making the best training choices. It also

doesn’t address the core problem here: how do

you find the optimal mix of strength training and

sport-specific training?

Tom Rankin gave the somewhat cryptic

recommendation " Plyometrics may

work well during the power phase. " I assume

Tom’s referring to Friel’s strength-training

scheme. Unfortunately, this is exactly what is

wrong with Friel’s approach--the belief that

plyometrics and strength work in the

gym--activities that are grossly dissimilar from

endurance work in every significant

way--contribute directly to improving endurance

performance. The types of adaptations that

plyometrics stimulate are unrelated to, and even

antagonistic to, the demands an Ironman-length

triathlon places on an athlete. Seriously, is

there any credible evidence showing that

plyometrics improve marathon performance in

trained runners? Since neither swimming nor

cycling involve strong, fast eccentric activity,

how would plyometrics increase the ability of an

athlete cycle for 112 miles at a moderately-hard

pace, or swim 1 1/2 miles?

Wilbanks responded to my post, in part:

" Every study I have ever seen showed that

strength training does not 'interfere' with

endurance training, at least in terms

recuperation or performance outcomes. The only

sense in which 'interference' would be valid is

in the above-mentioned scenario you proposed,

where the athletes are using 100% of their

available energy, time, and recuperative

abilities to do sport-specific volume training. "

Well if that’s what the studies say, you can keep

‘em ;-) , I don’t know whether you’ve

competed in endurance sports, or what training

programs you’ve followed, because you didn’t

mention your relevant experience in your post.

For what it’s worth, I’ve actually followed Joe

Friel’s strength-training recommendations for

cyclists, and IMO, it’s impossible to perform a

hard interval workout on the bike on the day

after squatting. If not, you either didn’t lift

hard enough on squat day, or you didn’t ride hard

enough on your interval day.

Even Friel recognizes this, as he recommends that

athletes taper or eliminate strength-training

before and during the competitive season, when

the athlete is performing high-intensity cycling

workouts three or more days each week. My

experience has been that, after a fifteen hour

cycling week that includes two gut-busting

interval days and two back-to-back brisk, hilly

group rides of 4-5 hours, I’m much better off

spending my time napping than doing pull ups,

overhead presses or hanging leg-raises.

also wrote: " you are assuming that every

last shred of the endurance athlete's time and

energy must be spent doing sport-specific

training at all times. "

That’s not what I said. If that’s what I

believed, then I wouldn’t incorporate strength

work in my own training, eh? To repeat what I

said in my first post: " [my] experience suggests

that the cost-benefit balances are best

determined through trial and error, and that the

‘balance point’ shifts frequently, depending upon

changes in the intensity and volume of

sport-specific training, as well as non-athletic

demands on time and physical and mental

resources. "

We both seem to agree that when the athlete’s

volume and intensity of endurance work decreases,

he or she can incorporate (more) strength work.

The big question is, how do you determine the

optimal amount? During the " base " period, I can

easily lift every day, but when I’m getting into

peak cycling shape, the volume and intensity of

my endurance training are so high that the

optimal amount of strength training seems to be

zero. I admit this isn’t rigorously proven, just

anecdotal evidence with N=1.

Let’s get back to the original point of Gabe

Rinaldi’s post. He’s got a client who’s training

for an Ironman-distance triathlon: a 1 1/2 mile

swim, followed by a 112 mile bike ride, followed

by a 26.2 mile run, and he wants to know what

kind of strength training will benefit this

person. I don’t know much about swimming, but as

for the other two disciplines, a cyclist would

train around 8-20 hours a week for a 112 mile

race, and a runner would train a similar amount

of time to complete the 70-120 miles that

marathoners typically run each week. Except for

a few full-time professional triathletes, there’s

no way one can devote as much time to each

discipline as an athlete who’s competing in only

one of these three sports. Thus, the challenge

of training for a triathlon is figuring out how

best to allocate the limited training time

available.

Any coach who proposes that a triathlete should

simply add more training time each week to

perform strength work in addition to the current

volume of endurance work, or who proposes that a

triathlete should reduce sport-specific training

time to make room for strength training, should

have a well-founded basis for believing that the

benefits to be gained will surpass those to be

foregone. Otherwise, you’re just wasting your

athlete’s time and short-changing him on

performance.

Regards,

s

Ardmore, PA

[Guest guest]

I would love to see some links to these studies. What I have read is that weight

training

does make a difference for short event endurance athletes.

So for example, Olympic course triathletes (where the competition lasts about 2

hours),

do benefit from regular weight training. However, Ironman distance (8 hours)

triathletes

do not seem to benefit performance-wise.

This is a major point of fun debate between myself and my brother, who is a

Ironman distance

triathlete and a physiotherapist. I am for explosive type weight-training,

telling my brother

that one could design an effective program that takes 15 minutes 2 to 3 times a

week; my

brother counters by saying that no pro Ironman triathletes trains seriously

using weights

and there has been no research showing performance benefits of training weights

for long

distance endurance athletes (but he agrees about therapeutic and injury

prevention oriented

weight-training).

Bob Yu

Montreal, Canada

-----------

> there may be something you aren't aware of. Only recently, the benefits of

> strength and power training for endurance athletes have been shown through

> actual research, as well as through anecdotal evidence.