Re: Re: Long-term effects of dependency

[Guest guest]

Some would call it a relief panel.CE Grim MDOn Aug 29, 2010, at 9:29 PM, Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA wrote:If one visits a nursing home it opens your eyes to many things. Many there want to be dead and if they had there way they would be. Do we have the right to keep them alive against there will? If there was a death panel this would be where you would see it at work.> > > > Berwick's work is an excellent source for those who will argue that socialized medicine, redistribution of income, loss of freedom, and death panels are absolutely not what America wants. For him to be in charge of the official death panel for those over 65 is truly a betrayal of the American people.> > > > > > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic> > Messages in this topic (33)> > RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 6> > Visit Your Group> > MARKETPLACE> > Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center.> > > > > > Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests.> > > > > > Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.>

[Guest guest]

" Relief " is a family

and individual decision. It is not

a decision for the collectivist.

Val

From: hyperaldosteronism

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim

Some would call it a relief panel.

[Guest guest]

It cannot be done without the individual's input. or their designaetd one."Relief" is a family and individual decision. It is not a decision for the collectivist. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim Some would call it a relief panel.

[Guest guest]

They are doing it to my friend's mother right now. She made the mistake of choosing Kaiser

(an HMO) for Medicare. That means

she's stuck. She had stomach

surgery which Kaiser admits they botched. They have her in a rehab center and the (probably

overworked) nurses are mistreating her.

My friend had to call 911 a few nights ago to get attention for her

mother. Kaiser wants her to go to

hospice. Of course, that would be

cheaper. The Kaiser " relief

panel " is alive and well. I

have another friend who is a medical malpractice attorney. She long ago lost count of how many

times she has sued Kaiser.

Val

From:

hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On

Behalf Of Clarence Grim

It cannot be done without the individual's input. or their

designaetd one.

On

Aug 30, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Valarie wrote:

" Relief " is a family and

individual decision. It is

not a decision for the collectivist.

From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence

Grim

Some would call it

a relief panel.

[Guest guest]

I drive a 23-year-old car and

use the savings to buy my own long-term care insurance. My husband drives a 19-year-old car and

uses the savings to pay for his own long-term care insuirance. We didn't have vacations. Maybe that's how we put togither enough

to secure our future. We don't

intend to have any more outside intrusion than absolutely necessary. We have a 10 kw solar system and

geothermal heating/cooling. Our

utilities, including water, gas, lights, garbagre, run under $200/month.

The more we shop, the more we

learn pretty much where to get what we want for drugs, supplies, etc. I've been using spironolactone from New

Zealand and T4 from Mexico for years.

My doctor doesn't accept any insurance, Medicare or otherwise. Right now, I can turn his bills in once

I hit the deductible. Once I have

to go on Medicare, no part of his bills can be submitted to my

" insurance " - Medicare - ever!

Never! Because he is not a government sanctioned physician. Mind you, those on Medicare cannot buy

anything else. Medicare is their

ONLY CHOICE.

The more you know, the better

you'll live.

Val

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ]

On Behalf Of Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA

Like

it or not the Gov is going to be a part of our health care. Most can not pay

$60,000 or more for long term nursing home care for long. If we didn't have Medicade

most would just die alone in there home.

[Guest guest]

Good for the suits. How many did she win? I don't know Kaiser's record for getting rid of bad Drs but must be public.Mistakes happen. Medicine is not a perfect science. Well not science is perfect except maybe math.Hospice is also more humane in many cases. One of our goals is to minimize suffering. CE Grim MDThey are doing it to my friend's mother right now. She made the mistake of choosing Kaiser (an HMO) for Medicare. That means she's stuck. She had stomach surgery which Kaiser admits they botched. They have her in a rehab center and the (probably overworked) nurses are mistreating her. My friend had to call 911 a few nights ago to get attention for her mother. Kaiser wants her to go to hospice. Of course, that would be cheaper. The Kaiser "relief panel" is alive and well. I have another friend who is a medical malpractice attorney. She long ago lost count of how many times she has sued Kaiser. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence GrimIt cannot be done without the individual's input. or their designaetd one. "Relief" is a family and individual decision. It is not a decision for the collectivist. From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim Some would call it a relief panel.

[Guest guest]

No it is because he refuses to take Medicare patients. The choice is his. Tiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

I drive a 23-year-old car and

use the savings to buy my own long-term care insurance. My husband drives a 19-year-old car and

uses the savings to pay for his own long-term care insuirance. We didn't have vacations. Maybe that's how we put togither enough

to secure our future. We don't

intend to have any more outside intrusion than absolutely necessary. We have a 10 kw solar system and

geothermal heating/cooling. Our

utilities, including water, gas, lights, garbagre, run under $200/month.

The more we shop, the more we

learn pretty much where to get what we want for drugs, supplies, etc. I've been using spironolactone from New

Zealand and T4 from Mexico for years.

My doctor doesn't accept any insurance, Medicare or otherwise. Right now, I can turn his bills in once

I hit the deductible. Once I have

to go on Medicare, no part of his bills can be submitted to my

"insurance" - Medicare - ever!

Never! Because he is not a government sanctioned physician. Mind you, those on Medicare cannot buy

anything else. Medicare is their

ONLY CHOICE.

The more you know, the better

you'll live.

Val

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ]

On Behalf Of Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA

Like

it or not the Gov is going to be a part of our health care. Most can not pay

$60,000 or more for long term nursing home care for long. If we didn't have Medicade

most would just die alone in there home.

[Guest guest]

No you will still be able to pay him. At least I would ask if he will not still take your money. God bless America. Tiped sad Send form miiPhone ;-)May your pressure be low!CE Grim MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertension

I drive a 23-year-old car and

use the savings to buy my own long-term care insurance. My husband drives a 19-year-old car and

uses the savings to pay for his own long-term care insuirance. We didn't have vacations. Maybe that's how we put togither enough

to secure our future. We don't

intend to have any more outside intrusion than absolutely necessary. We have a 10 kw solar system and

geothermal heating/cooling. Our

utilities, including water, gas, lights, garbagre, run under $200/month.

The more we shop, the more we

learn pretty much where to get what we want for drugs, supplies, etc. I've been using spironolactone from New

Zealand and T4 from Mexico for years.

My doctor doesn't accept any insurance, Medicare or otherwise. Right now, I can turn his bills in once

I hit the deductible. Once I have

to go on Medicare, no part of his bills can be submitted to my

"insurance" - Medicare - ever!

Never! Because he is not a government sanctioned physician. Mind you, those on Medicare cannot buy

anything else. Medicare is their

ONLY CHOICE.

The more you know, the better

you'll live.

Val

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ]

On Behalf Of Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA

Like

it or not the Gov is going to be a part of our health care. Most can not pay

$60,000 or more for long term nursing home care for long. If we didn't have Medicade

most would just die alone in there home.

[Guest guest]

My friend's mother would not

live long if they pull out her feeding tube as they want to do. She'd starve to death. Without question,

I'm sure Kaiser thinks that would be less expensive than giving her proper

medical care. They are demanding a

doctor who has respect for life.

Whether they get it with Kaiser is another question. If she can hang on four more months, she

can escape Kaiser.

Val

From:

hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On

Behalf Of Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA

To be put on hospice you have to have Dr say very unlikely

you will live more then 6 more months. Not all Hospice work the same. From what

I know about hospice one should ask a lot of questions and make good plans as

to what is to be done.

[Guest guest]

What is the prognosis? Is she comfortable. What does she want to do? These are questions that must be considered.Many times proper medical care is to know when to stop "care". We can prolong "life" in many circumstances but at a cost of increasing suffering. Clearly a cost benefit analysis that all of will need to make some day. CE Grim MDMy friend's mother would not live long if they pull out her feeding tube as they want to do. She'd starve to death. Without question, I'm sure Kaiser thinks that would be less expensive than giving her proper medical care. They are demanding a doctor who has respect for life. Whether they get it with Kaiser is another question. If she can hang on four more months, she can escape Kaiser. ValFrom: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA To be put on hospice you have to have Dr say very unlikely you will live more then 6 more months. Not all Hospice work the same. From what I know about hospice one should ask a lot of questions and make good plans as to what is to be done.

[Guest guest]

I can turn my bills into Blue

Cross even though my doc doesn't directly accept any insurance.  Once I meet the deductible, I can either use

the insurance at time of service, or send the claims in later.

When I have to be in Medicare

because I have NO CHOICE, I cannot turn any of his bills over to (even if they

are catastrophic) my " insurance " because my doc is not a

government-sanctioned physician.  If I

had choice, that would be different, but I will have NO CHOICE in where I buy

insurance.

This is government very directly

inserting itself between my doctor and me. 

Only if I play fair (go to a government doctor) do I get to use my

insurance.

Val

From:

hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On

Behalf Of Clarence Grim

No

it is because he refuses to take Medicare patients. The choice is his.

[Guest guest]

You can still pay your Dr directly I suspect.CE Grim MDI can turn my bills into Blue Cross even though my doc doesn't directly accept any insurance. Once I meet the deductible, I can either use the insurance at time of service, or send the claims in later. When I have to be in Medicare because I have NO CHOICE, I cannot turn any of his bills over to (even if they are catastrophic) my "insurance" because my doc is not a government-sanctioned physician. If I had choice, that would be different, but I will have NO CHOICE in where I buy insurance. This is government very directly inserting itself between my doctor and me. Only if I play fair (go to a government doctor) do I get to use my insurance. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim No it is because he refuses to take Medicare patients. The choice is his.

[Guest guest]

The point is that I will not be

able to use my insurance because I have no intention of playing nice with a

government doctor.  The point is I will

have NO CHOICE in insurance.

In time, if the socialists get

their way, no one will have any choice in doctors either unless they take

advantage of medical travel businesses like that of my U.S. Representative,

Polis.  Already, I have friends who

get all their routine care done in Panama. 

Val

From:

hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On

Behalf Of Clarence Grim

No

you will still be able to pay him. At least I would ask if he will not still

take your money. God bless America.

On Aug 31, 2010, at 1:38 AM, Valarie

wrote:

My

doctor doesn't accept any insurance, Medicare or otherwise. Right now, I

can turn his bills in once I hit the deductible. Once I have to go on

Medicare, no part of his bills can be submitted to my " insurance " -

Medicare - ever! Never!  Because he is not a government

sanctioned physician. Mind you, those on Medicare cannot buy anything

else. Medicare is their ONLY CHOICE.

[Guest guest]

It is Kaiser because she has a

Medicare Advantage plan with them.

Until she can escape, Kaiser owns her.

Val

From:

hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On

Behalf Of Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA

In this it is not medicare that

isn't paying the bill.

[Guest guest]

I thought that was called slavery?I am sure Kaiser would let her go anywhere she wants to pay.CE Grim MDIt is Kaiser because she has a Medicare Advantage plan with them. Until she can escape, Kaiser owns her. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA In this it is not medicare that isn't paying the bill.

[Guest guest]

She is in pain from her recent surgery

and she desperately wants to live. My

friend had to call 911 the other night to get her pain meds. She called me to see if she was

over-reacting. Kaiser wants to pull

her feeding tube.

Val

From: hyperaldosteronism

[mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim

What is the prognosis? Is she comfortable. What does

she want to do? These are questions that must be considered.

Many

times proper medical care is to know when to stop " care " . We

can prolong " life " in many circumstances but at a cost of increasing

suffering. Clearly a cost benefit analysis that all of will need to make

some day.

[Guest guest]

She should not have to endure pain these days.CE Grim MDShe is in pain from her recent surgery and she desperately wants to live. My friend had to call 911 the other night to get her pain meds. She called me to see if she was over-reacting. Kaiser wants to pull her feeding tube. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence GrimWhat is the prognosis? Is she comfortable. What does she want to do? These are questions that must be considered. Many times proper medical care is to know when to stop "care". We can prolong "life" in many circumstances but at a cost of increasing suffering. Clearly a cost benefit analysis that all of will need to make some day.

[Guest guest]

Respect for life, hmmm.... There needs to also be respect for human dignity. Situations like this can be debated ad nauseum without any one changing their opinion, it's a very personal thing. This is why everyone needs to have Advance Directives drawn up indicating their medical wishes before a catastrophic medical occurrence happens. My mother and father-in-law received hospice care before their deaths and I can tell you they perform a much needed survice. In order to be eligible for hospice it must be deemed that a person has a life expectancy of less than 10 months, you can't just put anybody into hospice.

Having spend 35+ years in the medical field, I can tell you there are some things worse than death. I've seen them.

a

Subject: Re: Re: Long-term effects of dependencyTo: hyperaldosteronism Cc: "Clarence Grim" Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 12:49 PM

What is the prognosis? Is she comfortable. What does she want to do? These are questions that must be considered.

Many times proper medical care is to know when to stop "care". We can prolong "life" in many circumstances but at a cost of increasing suffering. Clearly a cost benefit analysis that all of will need to make some day.

CE Grim MD

My friend's mother would not live long if they pull out her feeding tube as they want to do. She'd starve to death. Without question, I'm sure Kaiser thinks that would be less expensive than giving her proper medical care. They are demanding a doctor who has respect for life. Whether they get it with Kaiser is another question. If she can hang on four more months, she can escape Kaiser.

Val

From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA

To be put on hospice you have to have Dr say very unlikely you will live more then 6 more months. Not all Hospice work the same. From what I know about hospice one should ask a lot of questions and make good plans as to what is to be done.

[Guest guest]

You get what you pay for.CE Grim MDThe point is that I will not be able to use my insurance because I have no intention of playing nice with a government doctor. The point is I will have NO CHOICE in insurance. In time, if the socialists get their way, no one will have any choice in doctors either unless they take advantage of medical travel businesses like that of my U.S. Representative, Polis. Already, I have friends who get all their routine care done in Panama. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim No you will still be able to pay him. At least I would ask if he will not still take your money. God bless America. My doctor doesn't accept any insurance, Medicare or otherwise. Right now, I can turn his bills in once I hit the deductible. Once I have to go on Medicare, no part of his bills can be submitted to my "insurance" - Medicare - ever! Never! Because he is not a government sanctioned physician. Mind you, those on Medicare cannot buy anything else. Medicare is their ONLY CHOICE.

[Guest guest]

But the point is

1) I have NO CHOICE in what I buy for

insurance

2) I cannot use my insurance because I won't

go to a government doctor.

3) Medicare is good only as long as you do

things the government's way

This is the socialist's scheme

for wrapping everyone into the nice socialized package where choice is a thing

of the past, and government controls everything. How much money I have to pay my doc is

irrelevant. How long I may have

that right is a serious question.

Val

From:

hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On

Behalf Of Clarence Grim

You can still pay your Dr directly

I suspect.

On

Aug 31, 2010, at 11:53 AM, Valarie wrote:

I can

turn my bills into Blue Cross even though my doc doesn't directly accept any

insurance. Once I meet the

deductible, I can either use the insurance at time of service, or send the

claims in later.

When I

have to be in Medicare because I have NO CHOICE, I cannot turn any of his bills

over to (even if they are catastrophic) my " insurance " because my doc

is not a government-sanctioned physician. If I had choice, that would be

different, but I will have NO CHOICE in where I buy insurance.

This is

government very directly inserting itself between my doctor and me. Only if I play fair (go to a government

docto r) do I get to use my insurance.

[Guest guest]

A very nice Freudian slip you made. You may have coined a new word.much needed survice.

[Guest guest]

Typo, sorry, service. Maybe Freudian slip, survive?

much needed survice.

[Guest guest]

But the point is1) I have NO CHOICE in what I buy for insuranceI just googled Health Insurance Companies and got: 61,700,000 hits. Pretty good choice it would seem to me.2) I cannot use my insurance because I won't go to a government doctor.That is your choice so you do have a choice.3) Medicare is good only as long as you do things the government's wayWhich we can hope is the best way to get the most good to the most folks. This is the socialist's scheme for wrapping everyone into the nice socialized package where choice is a thing of the past, and government controls everything. How much money I have to pay my doc is irrelevant. How long I may have that right is a serious question. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim You can still pay your Dr directly I suspect. I can turn my bills into Blue Cross even though my doc doesn't directly accept any insurance. Once I meet the deductible, I can either use the insurance at time of service, or send the claims in later. When I have to be in Medicare because I have NO CHOICE, I cannot turn any of his bills over to (even if they are catastrophic) my "insurance" because my doc is not a government-sanctioned physician. If I had choice, that would be different, but I will have NO CHOICE in where I buy insurance. This is government very directly inserting itself between my doctor and me. Only if I play fair (go to a government docto r) do I get to use my insurance.

[Guest guest]

That what I was thinking a combo of hospice and survive but also has the last 3 letters from nice in it.CE Grim MDTypo, sorry, service. Maybe Freudian slip, survive? much needed survice.

[Guest guest]

I don't necessarily disagree with you. If people were paying their own bills,

up to some catastrophic limit, they would be far more careful to shop and spend

wisely - assuming prices were transparent and price discrimination was illegal. Competition breeds efficiency.

I agree with you that " Doctors need to be able to

doctor freely - not be restricted by the parameters set by individual

insurance companies … " I

also contend that doctors need to be able to doctor freely - not be restricted

by some unelected, unaccountable termination panel in Washington.

No one needs to read any fearmongering. The bill says it all. I've read most of it. Insurance companies stand to do well and

have been generally supportive of this socialization. They get to do lots more business with a

captive consumer. This was a golden

egg for them. Already, they are

raising premiums by double digits.

I am reminded of the young woman who nearly died from Lyme

in Canada because she could not get help.

She ended up in the U.S.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/WFive/20091113/w5_lyme_091114/

Why do you suppose your Canadian prime minister came to the

U.S. for his heart surgery? What

about others? What are they trying

to escape?

I understand what I write is disconcerting, but the more we

know, the better.

Val

From:

hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On

Behalf Of chipmunkzone

Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:35 AM

To: hyperaldosteronism

Subject: Re: Long-term effects of dependency

They are demanding a doctor who has

respect for life.

Here in

Canada it would be the family fighting for the feeding tube removal, not an

insurance company. Hubby just underwent bypass surgery in March - 6

bypasses in one surgery. Cost to us - nil. If we had had to pay for

this he would be dead cause we do/did not have the assets to cover the

cost. Change is always scary with many believing better the devil you

know than the devil you don't. In my opinion no plan is perfect for

everyone but it is obvious what the public perceives to have been

working in the United states has actually only been working for those few who

can afford it and even then, it still comes down to the insurance wanting

to provide profits to their shareholders rather than what would be the

best care of the people who are paying the premiums. I would be

questioning who the actual fearmongerers are. In all likelihood all/most

of the negativity would/could be traced back to an insurance company.

They feed off the fear they have instilled in the public and are laughing all

the way to the bank. Doctors need to be able to doctor freely - not be

restricted by the parameters set by individual insurance companies, not to

even mention the drug companies who only provide the information they want in

order to get the doctors to prescribe their meds over a competitor. I

would hazard a guess that many docors spend more time reading to keep up

with the various insurance changes than reading up on new research

findings. The movie SHREK comes to mind - " Change is good

donkey! "