Guest guest Posted March 6, 2003 Report Share Posted March 6, 2003 Melnyk wrote: > One of my clients was performing deadlifts with dumbbells (straight- > legged, maintained lumbar curve) and she kept telling me that she > felt nothing. > > She is very flexible, and we then tried rounding the back, and doing > a full deadlift with dumbbells. Again, she stated that she felt > nothing. I don't feel them much either during the actual exercise... but I have to pace myself because the DOMS I get the following 48 hours can be brutal, especially if I follow the 'gotta-feel-it' philosophy. Chip Conrad Sacramento, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 I have found that I " feel " straight legged deadlifts better if, at the bottom of the movement, I consciously contract my hamstrings and tighten them before I start the motion up. That being said, just because one does not " feel " anything, does not mean muscle fiber is not being recruited. I hardly ever " feel " anything on bench press, but I'm pretty sure that I'm still stimulating muscle fiber. Layne Norton Eckerd College St. Pete FL, USA -------- Melnyk wrote: > > > One of my clients was performing deadlifts with dumbbells (straight- > > legged, maintained lumbar curve) and she kept telling me that she > > felt nothing. > > > > She is very flexible, and we then tried rounding the back, and doing > > a full deadlift with dumbbells. Again, she stated that she felt > > nothing. Chip Conrad: > I don't feel them much either during the actual > exercise... but I > have to pace myself because the DOMS I get the > following 48 hours can > be brutal, especially if I follow the > 'gotta-feel-it' philosophy. * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 wrote, >One of my clients was performing deadlifts with dumbbells (straight- >legged, maintained lumbar curve) and she kept telling me that she >felt nothing. > >She is very flexible, and we then tried rounding the back, and doing >a full deadlift with dumbbells. Again, she stated that she felt >nothing. Why round her back if you want hamstring activiation? Hobman Saskatoon, Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 Try Good Mornings. ECAWO Cheers, Mesa, Arizona ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 23:34:58 -0000 >We were doing leg curls for the previous six weeks and I want to get <BR> >her away from that exercise however she just doesn't like the <BR> >deadlift. What are my options?? Any comments or suggestions?<BR> ><BR> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 Melnyk wrote: > > One of my clients was performing deadlifts with dumbbells (straight- > > legged, maintained lumbar curve) and she kept telling me that she > > felt nothing. > > > > She is very flexible, and we then tried rounding the back, and doing > > a full deadlift with dumbbells. Again, she stated that she felt > > nothing. Chip Conrad: > I don't feel them much either during the actual exercise... but I > have to pace myself because the DOMS I get the following 48 hours can > be brutal, especially if I follow the 'gotta-feel-it' philosophy. I'd also recommend educating her in *what* she should be feeling (i.e., a good stretch through the hamstring) and point out, as Chip does, that you really feel this one through the DOMS. I'd also point out, of course, that the hamstrings function as hip extensors as well as knee flexors and that it's important to train both functions. I see no inherent reason not to have her use a bar and moderate weight, though. McClinch Arlington, VA * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 I'm really just curious, what was the feeling she wanted? Sometimes deadlifts make me feel like I want to die. Skip Dallen Covina, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 I agree here with - PLUS rounding the back is something we HIGHLY discourage in PL'ers!!! Proper form, and more weight, will likely serve this lady better! I think your lady might benefit more from the real, bent knee, whole DL from the floor - yes, with a barbell. Try 95 lbs - and set the 25's on top of 2 45's laid flat, to simulate the height of the 45's. This will help the form remain good up to the point your gal can handle the whole 135. Perhaps this lady has strength and potential as a deadlifter, and the db's and other methods of " softening " this lift might not suffice - you may have an actual lifter on your hands? Madeline Chen, if she's reading, may be able to provide an interesting perspective as to a DL beginner as well....<grin>. The Phantom aka Schaefer, CSCS, CMT, competing powerlifter and corrupter of non-deadlifting civilians! Denver, Colorado, USA > wrote, > > >One of my clients was performing deadlifts with dumbbells (straight- > >legged, maintained lumbar curve) and she kept telling me that she > >felt nothing. > > > >She is very flexible, and we then tried rounding the back, and doing > >a full deadlift with dumbbells. Again, she stated that she felt > >nothing. > > Why round her back if you want hamstring activiation? > > Hobman > Saskatoon, Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2003 Report Share Posted March 7, 2003 Hobman writes: << Why round her back if you want hamstring activiation?>> , Great question--has anyone performed EMG ham studies --flexed into extended vs neutrally maintained? There may be a significantly different (benefical--detrimental) neural recruitment strategy for both and or any variation betwext?! I can just see some CroMagnon--all bent over digging tubers, when " Saber " shows up. First movements include back extension (from flexed)--concurrent with leaning forward lead leg hip flexion the contralateral leg--hip exension then running with back in greatest neural recruitment--neutral to flexed-- " sprinting " position? Jerry Telle Lakewood CO USA *Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 > Why round her back if you want hamstring activiation? > > Hobman > Saskatoon, Canada ** Because of her flexibility, rather than keep the lumbar curve, rounding the back to allow further range of motion. Do a DL with a lumbar curve, versus bending over as if you were touching your toes. Melnyk College Park, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 I wonder if the long length of her hamstrings has something to do with this phenomena? She may be partially substituting some other muscles to do the work, in a way that others with shorter hamstrings wouldn't do. It might be best to allow her body to figure out how best to optimize the work. Such things often happen best at a subconscious level. Besides, rounding the back when lifting is a definite no-no. All things being equal (which they rarely are!), having long hamstrings (and long iliopsoas muscles) should be an advantage in avoiding back problems. In fact, she should be considered normal in that respect, and the rest of us in the Western world abnormal. Long hamstrings allow the forward rotation axis to remain where it should be - in the hip joints - rather than in the lower back, which is what happens when the hamstrings are too short, which is the case in most people who habitually use chairs a lot of the time (like myself right now......;-). Sitting in chairs a lot allows the hamstrings and the iliopsoas muscles to adapt to a habitally shortened state, which forces forward bending of the hips to stop at some point, and the rest of the bending must occur in the lower back, thus loading the back in the worst position of all. This causes the posterior longitudinal ligament in the spinal canal to become habitually slack, allowing the intervertebral disks to bulge posteriorly when bending forward. This is compounded by the presure on the anterior edges of the vertebra. It's like trying to squeeze tooth- paste out of a tube. When this is done during lifting, the risk of disk herniation is greatly increased. The whole McKenzie concept is based on the role of the effects of posture on the intervertebral disks, and how this causes or prevents back problems: http://www.mckenziemdt.org/ http://www.mckenziemdt.org/pro_w_new_frameset.html Regards, Lee, PT Denmark The Quack-Files http://www.quackfiles.com Anti-Quackery Resources & Web Rings http://quackbusters.quackfiles.com Anti-Quackery Ring http://g.webring.com/hub?ring=antiquackerysite Anti-Quackery LINKS Ring http://x.webring.com/hub?ring=antiquackerylink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Melnyk writes: << ** Because of her flexibility, rather than keep the lumbar curve, rounding the back to allow further range of motion. Do a DL with a lumbar curve, versus bending over as if you were touching your toes. >> Greetintgs , Did you have any sense of increased hamstring ROM (range of motion), when the spine was allowed to flex? Or was the additional ROM spine flexion only? What resistance-endurance differences, if any, were realized? Jerry Jerry Telle Lakewood CO USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Schaefer wrote: <I think your lady might benefit more from the real, bent knee, whole DL from the floor - yes, with a barbell. etc.> , I agree with you 10000%, BUT, unfortunately it has been my experience that people will invent scenarios to NOT do exercises that for one reason or the other they do not like or do not want to do. " It will make me bulky " etc. etc. etc. After several years of trying I adopted the philosophy: " If they don't want it, bless them. " In my gym there were always enough individuals who were really interested in making progress and I devoted my energies towards them. Harvey Maron, M.D. Steamboat Springs, CO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2003 Report Share Posted March 8, 2003 Schaefer wrote: > I agree here with - PLUS rounding the back is something we HIGHLY > discourage in PL'ers!!! Proper form, and more weight, will likely serve > this lady better! ** Explain what's wrong with rounding the back, so long as you keep the bar close to the body and at the lower portion of the movement keep the bar as if it was on top of your laces. Irregardless of PL'ers. Melnyk College Park, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Hobman <Why round her back if you want hamstring activiation?> Melnyk: >Because of her flexibility, rather than keep the lumbar curve, >rounding the back to allow further range of motion. > >Do a DL with a lumbar curve, versus bending over as if you were >touching your toes. Yes, but the goal is hamstring activation, not ROM. Which precludes rounding, I thought. Fred Hatfield is specific that doing a 'keystone deadlift' activates the hamstrings - with the back kept flat. I've always felt this was true. Hobman Saskatoon, Canada * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be published Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 very simple. You apparently are talking RDL. I'm talking DL. RDL's are not as heavily weighted. If you want to round the back with no weight, fine. That's your call....but don't do it with 200 lbs? teach someone lousy back rounding form with 20 lbs and you risk they'll do it with 200 someday..... A regular DL where someone is rounding the back that's a bad fault and both and I would be all over them to NOT round the back like a U....downward facing one.... If you'd ever DONE a regular DL from the floor and rounded your back, you would NEVER voluntarily do it again! Ideally, you use a " flat " back in the DL....the head up/low butt and all the other stance cue's are meant to PREVENT that, in aconventional regular DL. a straight legged lightly loaded RDL such as you're talking about? I still say put the bar on the floor and teach the whole lift. you might find she improves more when you aren't trying to just hit a hamstring, but an overall improvement, as the real DL from the floor brings? Mel talks about no move or muscle being isolated. This is an example of an attempt to isolate? lol.... the Phantom aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter unabased deadlifter denver, Colorado, usa > Schaefer wrote: > > > I agree here with - PLUS rounding the back is something we HIGHLY > > discourage in PL'ers!!! Proper form, and more weight, will likely serve > > this lady better! > > ** Explain what's wrong with rounding the back, so long as you keep > the bar close to the body and at the lower portion of the movement > keep the bar as if it was on top of your laces. > > Irregardless of PL'ers. > > Melnyk > College Park, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Yes Harvey - and you like I, stand behind the efforts of ANYONE looking for the key to unlock their own potential! But you know, I still feel this whole bulky nonsense springs from ignorance... Honestly, has ANYONE seen a 97 lb'er PL who was BULKY? A drug tested one? I haven't so far...! The women's weight classes start at a rather unbulky 97 lbs.... Education about the likelihood of " bulkiness " , plus a realization that steroids generally and a lot of effort are required to make a gal bulky.... It's time to bust this myth wide open, people. this also is behind that " Curves " rubbish as well! Dumbing down lifting for women? Why....? Put the barbell in the hands of the di staff members, and see what they do. Enough is enough! ....and really, WHAT does someone know who hires a trainer? if you sub out the DBs for the BB and do the real lift? Powerlifting is invisible, right? <grin> and having them do a REAL deadlift? What's the risk here? -- actual SUCCESS? OK, maybe I am a militant, but you know, I've found the success women have in grabbing for the true benefits and dispelling the myths is MOST apparent when you hand them the bar and expect success. Expect improvements. Expect what you would as if you were training a male.....because the excuses then disappear and you get success. What are they hiring trainers for, if it is not SUCCESS??? Schaefer CMT, CSCS aka the Phantom, competing powerlifter Denver, Colorado, USA --------------- Schaefer wrote: > I think your lady might benefit more from the real, bent knee, > whole DL from the floor - yes, with a barbell. etc.> Harvey Maron, M.D > , I agree with you 10000%, BUT, unfortunately it has been my > experience that people will invent scenarios to NOT do exercises that > for one reason or the other they do not like or do not want to do. > " It will make me bulky " etc. etc. etc. > > After several years of trying I adopted the philosophy: " If they don't > want it, bless them. " > > In my gym there were always enough individuals who were really > interested in making progress and I devoted my energies towards them. ----- * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 > You apparently are talking RDL. I'm talking DL. RDL's are not as >heavily weighted. If you want to round the back with no weight, >fine. That's your call....but don't do it with 200 lbs? teach >someone lousy back rounding form with 20 lbs and you risk they'll do >it with 200 someday..... **** Clarify the difference between an RDL and a DL. I'm talking about doing stiff-legged deadlifts. I'd prefer using dumbbells with my clients instead of the barbbell since I don't think some of them are ready for a 45lb bar in their hands. [The direction of downward force is the same whether you use barbell or dumbbells. What is so daunting or demanding about holding a 45lb bar in the hands? Many very old senior adults can easily raise that sort of load inside a power rack. My paraplegic wife who has very seriously impaired balance can easily raise that sort of load. Are you regulalry dealing with clients who are even more disabled or very much older than 75 years young? Mel Siff] Also, what is wrong with rounding the back in a deadlift? In powerlifting competitions which I'm not aware of, do the rules state no rounding of the back? And do they also start with bent knees/squat position to lift the bar as opposed to straight legged? Read these comments over at exrx.net, http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/DangerousExercises.html#anchor416052 I do not think spinal flexion is bad in a deadlift if the person is healthy and knows what they are doing. Right now I do SL-DLs with 135 pounds, 3 sets of 8 reps, no back pain or injury for me. [This is not to denigrate you in any way, but that sort of load is trivial, because most serious lifters use loads at least three times as large. There is a major difference between lifting what amounts to a light warm-up and a near maximal or maximal lift. One can often escape with impunity from doing a light exercise with poor technique, but heaven help you if you try the same ill-advised technique with much heavier loads! You also need to distinguish between rounding of the lumbar and thoracic spine - are you referring to both or simply one of them? Mel Siff] I also have friends who have been performing them for years with no pain or injury. I also start the exercise with the bar resting in a rack, so I do not bend over and begin the exercise by lifting it from the ground. At the lower portion of my deadlift I also do not place the weight on the ground, although I come close to hitting the ground with the 45lb plates. Perhaps if you are a powerlifter, rounding the back is not the way to go. But I see no inherent dangers with rounding the back on a deadlift provided it is stiff-legged. You could do a variation of the deadlift by actually squatting with the weight held in front of you, in this case I would discourage heavily any back rounding. [You are suggesting that straight-legged deadlifts are intrinsically safer than the bent-knee version, which has never been shown to be the case. Mel Siff] > A regular DL where someone is rounding the back that's a bad fault >and both and I would be all over them to NOT round the back >like a U....downward facing one.... > If you'd ever DONE a regular DL from the floor and rounded your >back, you would NEVER voluntarily do it again! **** Here's the thing, you wouldn't bend over, and pick something up with a rounded back, BUT you could start with the bar at a standing position, THEN lower the weight with rounding of the back. Could it also be possible that rounding the back, then straightening provides more work for the lower back muscles (erector spinae)? Would they be more involved with rounding? Could it be possible that doing the deadlift with a flat back is easier because your erectors would have to work much harder with a round back? And if this is so, strengthening of the low back with good mornings/hypers/and other weighted variations would be a good idea? Just some thoughts... Melnyk College Park, MD http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jmelnyk * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be published Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Hi ! Hatfield is correct in that the hamstring muscles are quite active in regular deadlifts. A study by Escamilla et al in MSSE a couple of years ago examined deadlifts biomechanically and found much hamstring activity in regular deadlifts. I believe Basmajian sites a flexion relaxation phenominon in his text Muscles Alive when bending or flexing the trunk which would place a great deal of stress on the spinal ligaments with round back deadlifts. As one who has sprained some spinal ligments doing round back good mornings in my youth, I don't advise round back lifts. Dan Wathen, Youngstown (OH) State University --------- Hobman: > <Why round her back if you want hamstring activiation?> Melnyk: > >Because of her flexibility, rather than keep the lumbar curve, > >rounding the back to allow further range of motion. > > > >Do a DL with a lumbar curve, versus bending over as if you were > >touching your toes. Hobman: > Yes, but the goal is hamstring activation, not ROM. Which precludes > rounding, I thought. > > Fred Hatfield is specific that doing a 'keystone deadlift' activates the > hamstrings - with the back kept flat. I've always felt this was true. * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be published Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Harvey Maron writes: << Schaefer wrote: <What are they hiring trainers for, if it is not SUCCESS?? > Harvey Maron ------Unfortunately though there are a fair number of people who hire a trainer in order to say, " My trainer says " or " I train with so and so " . These people are more concerned with their gym outfits than the bodies underneath the clothes. Typically they will invent excuses not to do squats, deadlifts or anything resembling hard work. Their motto is " Oh, That is too heavy " . I found it easy to allow those people to enjoy their own desires while devoting my energies to the people who were really looking for results and success. Telle-- Come on you 2! Most clients hire trainers for appearences--that is the want to *appear* like they want to be healthy. The most successful trainers(generally) have the same clients year in and year out--who rarely change. And if they make some change, its some " quick fix " diet pill or " diet " of the day. Funny (sad, moronic) thing is--1 month after the fad diet or pill these wannawere's (sic) are in worse condition than previously!! Any one know of any exceptions? I *may* know of one but havent heard form her in 3 years! My friend, who is a bit of an idealist--now charges a " success " retainer. That is if a client isnt making progress he charges them an extra 2 sessions--in advance along with their regular fees--and if they dont make their goals he pockets the extra 2 sessions! He lost %%? clients with this method-about 30%? made progress! Jerry Jerry Telle Lakewood CO USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Dan Wathen writes: << Hatfield is correct in that the hamstring muscles are quite active in regular deadlifts. A study by Escamilla et al in MSSE a couple of years ago examined deadlifts biomechanically and found much hamstring activity in regular deadlifts.>> Telle-- Dan, do yo know if anyone has rigorously tested hams, deadlifts and foot area(force plate) pressures. That is I'm willing to predict: if the major % of force is vectored through heel centers, more gross hams activity occurs--there will be a positive correlation between neutral back and heel pressure ---and a positive correlatiion between toe/ball of the foot pressures and spine flexion(round back) dead lifts??? Jerry Jerry Telle Lakewood CO USA I believe Basmajian sites a flexion relaxation phenominon in his text Muscles Alive when bending or flexing the trunk which would place a great deal of stress on the spinal ligaments with round back deadlifts. As one who has sprained some spinal ligments doing round back good mornings in my youth, I don't advise round back lifts. , >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2003 Report Share Posted March 12, 2003 Hi Jerry! Dr Garhammer did some work with clean and snatch pulls many years ago and found significant hamstring activity. I am not aware of any research on the deadlift that is similar to what you describe with force plates. If you look through the references on the Escamilla paper, you may find something. Dan Wathen, Youngstown (OH) State University -------- Dan Wathen writes: > << Hatfield is correct in that the hamstring muscles are quite active in > regular deadlifts. A study by Escamilla et al in MSSE a couple of > years ago examined deadlifts biomechanically and found much hamstring > activity in regular deadlifts.>> Telle- > Dan, do yo know if anyone has rigorously tested hams, deadlifts and foot > area(force plate) pressures. That is I'm willing to predict: if the major % > of force is vectored through heel centers, more gross hams activity > occurs--there will be a positive correlation between neutral back and heel > pressure ---and a positive correlatiion between toe/ball of the foot > pressures and spine flexion(round back) dead lifts??? Dan Wathen: > I believe Basmajian sites a flexion relaxation phenominon in his text > Muscles Alive when bending or flexing the trunk which would place a > great deal of stress on the spinal ligaments with round back > deadlifts. As one who has sprained some spinal ligments doing round > back good mornings in my youth, I don't advise round back lifts. * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.