Re: Classic Chypre and the controversial Oakmoss

[Guest guest]

To: NaturalPerfumery

Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 12:50:17 AM

Subject: Classic Chypre and the controversial Oakmoss

 

I am currently composing a perfume inspired by the classic Chypre perfumes

before the disaster or reformulation because of the Oakmoss controversy (with my

own twists ofcourse), but want to know what your thoughts are in using Oakmoss

and how much. Have you created a perfume with a good amount of Oakmoss? If so,

has anyone that has used it died or end up in the hospital with a severe

allergic attack? I of course exaggerate with the last questions.

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For what it's worth, in " Plant Aromatics " , Watt cites the maximum safe

use of Oakmoss as 10%, and he's usually pretty conservative. A little Oakmoss

goes a long way, and it's doubtful you would ever be using anything even

approaching that amount.

Patty

Ganache for Lips

http://www.ganacheforlips.com

[Guest guest]

>

> For what it's worth, in " Plant Aromatics " , Watt cites the maximum safe

use of Oakmoss as 10%, and he's usually pretty conservative. A little Oakmoss

goes a long way, and it's doubtful you would ever be using anything even

approaching that amount.

>

> Patty

> Ganache for Lips

> http://www.ganacheforlips.com

Thanks for the reply. Is that the full title of the book? I did a quick search

in Amazon and didn't find it and it seems to be a book I should get ahold of.

Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Here's a link for ordering Watt's book.

http://www.aromamedical.com/paper.html

And here is safety data from the Good Scents Co. if you know how to interpret

their data

IFRA critical Effect : Sensitization

limits in the finished product for - " leave on the skin contact " :

0.1000 % Restriction.

limits in the finished product for - " wash off the skin contact " :

0.1000 % Restriction.

limits in the finished product for - " no skin contact " :

0.1000 % Restriction.

recommendation for oakmoss absolute fragrance usage levels up to :

5.0000 % in the fragrance concentrate.

recommendation for oakmoss absolute flavor usage levels up to :

40.0000 ppm in the flavor.

[Guest guest]

To: NaturalPerfumery

Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 10:36:01 AM

Subject: Re: Classic Chypre and the controversial Oakmoss

 

> For what it's worth, in " Plant Aromatics " , Watt cites the maximum safe

use of Oakmoss as 10%, and he's usually pretty conservative. A little Oakmoss

goes a long way, and it's doubtful you would ever be using anything even

approaching that amount.

>

> Patty

> Ganache for Lips

> http://www.ganacheforlips.com

Thanks for the reply. Is that the full title of the book? I did a quick search

in Amazon and didn't find it and it seems to be a book I should get ahold of.

Thanks.

************************************************************************

It's not sold here. You have to purchase it directly from his website:

http://www.aromamedical.com

You might also want to get Tisserand's excellent book, " Essential Oil

Safety " which IS sold in this country. Probably on Amazon.

Now that I have pulled out his book, I have to modify my previous comments on

Oakmoss. Tisserand says the maximum safe use is 0.6%. He comments that Oakmoss

Concrete is safe at 10%, but believes there is possibly something in the

concrete which " quenches the sensitizing action of the absolute " . So Watt must

have been referring to the concrete, rather than the absolute. (I've never seen

it sold as  a concrete myself, but would love to get me some.) So, sorry for the

bum information in my last post. I'm assuming you are using the absolute.

Patty ( tail between legs)

Ganache for Lips

http://www.ganacheforlips.com

[Guest guest]

________________________________

To: NaturalPerfumery

Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 12:36:01 PM

Subject: Re: Classic Chypre and the controversial Oakmoss

 

>

> For what it's worth, in " Plant Aromatics " , Watt cites the maximum safe

use of Oakmoss as 10%, and he's usually pretty conservative. A little Oakmoss

goes a long way, and it's doubtful you would ever be using anything even

approaching that amount.

>

> Patty

> Ganache for Lips

> http://www.ganachef orlips.com

Thanks for the reply. Is that the full title of the book? I did a quick search

in Amazon and didn't find it and it seems to be a book I should get ahold of.

Thanks.

Patty,

The IFRA recommended guideline for use of Oakmoss Extracts and Treemoss Extracts

is generally 0.10% on the skin.  This is due to skin sensitization attributed

to DHA (Dehydroabietic acid), Atranol and Chloroatranol (all powerful skin

sensitizers).

Al on

Creative Fragrances LTD.

[Guest guest]

To: NaturalPerfumery

Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 12:52:02 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Classic Chypre

Patty,

The IFRA recommended guideline for use of Oakmoss Extracts and Treemoss Extracts

is generally 0.10% on the skin.  This is due to skin sensitization  attributed

to DHA (Dehydroabietic acid), Atranol and Chloroatranol (all powerful skin

sensitizers) .

Al on

Creative Fragrances LTD.

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I'm gonna defer to Al on this, since the safety opinions may have changed since

Tisserand's book was published. If you want to weigh in on this , you'd be

very welcome.

 Patty

Ganache for Lips

http://www.ganacheforlips.com

[Guest guest]

I wrote to Watt, author of Plant Aromatics Safety Data Manual, asking

about the 10% level cited for oakmoss in his book, and he said, " That figure was

the maximum that it had been tested to without causing obvious problems. That

figure is NOT a suggested use level. Further down the page it gives the IFRA

maximum suggested level of 0.1%. "

In other words, stick to the lowest recommendation, the 0.1% IFRA limit for

oakmoss in all forms, resin, absolute, or concrete.

[Guest guest]

>

> I wrote to Watt, author of Plant Aromatics Safety Data Manual, asking

about the 10% level cited for oakmoss in his book, and he said, " That figure was

the maximum that it had been tested to without causing obvious problems. That

figure is NOT a suggested use level. Further down the page it gives the IFRA

maximum suggested level of 0.1%. "

> In other words, stick to the lowest recommendation, the 0.1% IFRA limit for

oakmoss in all forms, resin, absolute, or concrete.

Thank you. I have been doing some tests and oakmoss is such a strong component

that I don't need much of it to create the effect I'm working on. A small bit

of oakmoss coupled with labdanum and benzoin.... beautiful.

[Guest guest]

You're welcome.

Please excuse me for adding this, but Watt doesn't recommend using benzoin; he

says it's a known sensitizer unless it has been specifically refined to remove

certain chemicals.

Members of the forum: Any advice I give, I attribute to its source. My goal is

to encourage you to seek out, firsthand, trusted sources of your own.

In addition to the Watt and Tisserand books, there are other sources, but these

various sources don't always agree with one another. In other words, please

become well-informed, and make your own choices based on that knowledge.

The Good Scents Co. lists recommend concentrations of products it sells for use

on the skin.

http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/absolutx.html

The RIFM sells subscriptions for its online database of substances it has

tested, but I have no idea how much it costs.

http://www.rifm.org/index.asp

[Guest guest]

> You're welcome.

> Please excuse me for adding this, but Watt doesn't recommend using benzoin; he

says it's a known sensitizer unless it has been specifically refined to remove

certain chemicals.

Thanks again. Hmmm. I wonder if the Benzoin I have purchased is " refined " as I

have not heard of it not being recommended or a strong sensitizer. I generally

order from sources that have info on their products and safety recommendations

but they didn't say anything about Benzoin. I am using a Benzoin Resinoid and

an Absolute from Laos and Siam that I have ordered from 2 different companies.

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, yes, while I'm at it, I got my oakmoss from Eden Botanicals.

They say: " Oakmoss Absolute - IFRA Compliant... While most Oakmoss Absolutes

contain potential allergens and are not recommended for use by international

associations, our Oakmoss Absolute is approved for use in perfumery by IFRA. It

is extracted in France and is low in atranol so that it may be safely used in

your natural perfumes or your base accords. In addition to being safe to use in

low concentrations, our Oakmoss Absolute has a remarkable aroma. Highly

recommended. "

[Guest guest]

>

And yet funnily enough, Friars balsam (which contains large amounts of

benzoin tincture) is still used liberally in surgery to make things

stick to the skin......

Cracked me up when i first found a bottle in theatres when I was working

there as a nurse!

It used to be used for lots of different things in medicine as it is

very strongly antiseptic and also a bronchodilator and hence had

applications in the treatment of asthm a and other lung diseases....so

you still find it in most emergency departments and all surgery theatres.

Humph. If it's that bloody dngerous and likely to cause sensitisation it

wouldn't be used any more.

And keep in mind that we are talking about undiluted application to

large skin areas! Not tiny amounts dabbed to pulse points as perfume!

Ambrosia

http://www.perfumebynature.com.au

[Guest guest]

>

>

> >

> And yet funnily enough, Friars balsam (which contains large amounts of

> benzoin tincture) is still used liberally in surgery to make things

> stick to the skin......

> Cracked me up when i first found a bottle in theatres when I was working

> there as a nurse!

> It used to be used for lots of different things in medicine as it is

> very strongly antiseptic and also a bronchodilator and hence had

> applications in the treatment of asthm a and other lung diseases....so

> you still find it in most emergency departments and all surgery theatres.

> Humph. If it's that bloody dngerous and likely to cause sensitisation it

> wouldn't be used any more.

> And keep in mind that we are talking about undiluted application to

> large skin areas! Not tiny amounts dabbed to pulse points as perfume

_______________________________

>In the U.S. we have individual Tincture of Benzoin swabs that are used for a

skin prep around wounds as a skin protectant (yes..I said protectant). Wound

drainage and frequent tape removal can traumatize sensitive skin-- so it is

applied to intact skin. It remains slightly tacky on the skin so the tape also

sticks better then on bare skin. I can't remember the dilution of the the

tinture but if I run across a swab I will let you know if anyone is

interested...When I was a hospital nurse I loved using these because of the

lovely smell!

Ragna

>

[Guest guest]

Just goes to show, the ultimate decision is up to you.

Is it safe? No one agrees!

Do a Google search on " tincture of benzoin " using the advanced search feature.

Limit the search to domain names with .edu to filter out commercial webisites

and focus on educational institutions.

Result: Material Data Safety Sheets on the use of benzoin which show no risk.

Now do the same search search on " tincture of benzoin allergic. "

Result: A huge photo of a boy's swollen face with a rash from tincture of

benzoin used to hold a patch in place with a nasal tube during surgery.

Inconsistent findings! (I'm not posting links here because I don't want to

promote any one viewpoint over another.)

What should you do?

Personally, I would err on the side of caution and either not use it or look for

benzoin that has been refined to remove compounds that may cause allergy.

(Where do you get it? I don't know, but it would be worth finding.)

I sometimes use products that contain allergenic substances, but I am aware that

I am using them when I am using them, and I watch for early signs of reactions.

After all, latex is used it all the time in hospitals, and many people are

allergic to it.