RE: Running Shoes

[Guest guest]

The Tahamaru Indians (I'm sure I completely botched the spelling) make

sandal-like shoes

out of old tires.

[This practice was very common in South Africa, where kerbside cobblers would

ply their

trade in many cities and towns. Needless to say, those shoes lasted a long,

long time. Mel Siff]

They are among the best ultra marathoners world. (By the way, as noted on a

previous post, their diet is high complex carb and protein). They also play

games as children

that require kicking and chasing a ball for miles and miles. I think that's the

point: IT'S THE

TRAINING and your parents!

For the rest of us born in a comfortable areas with nicely paved roads, trails

and decent income,

I think it is helpful to purchase shoes tailored for our activities. I do

agree, though, that the

marketing for every little subset of activity is absurd, as is a new model for

every year. I buy

the brand and model I like when it goes on sale and has been replaced by the

" latest and greatest " ,

which of course, is hardly ever the case.

[i patronise Walmart, Payless Shoes or K-Mart and rarely need to spend more than

$15 a pair

of athletic shoes that serve me well and very comfortably for a few years. At

that price, you can

afford to discard them after a year or use them for working in the garden. Mel

Siff]

Sandi Beale

New Hope, PA

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff:

>> [by the way, I taught low and high impact aerobics barefooted on a concrete

>> surface (the class worked out on a padded floor) for more than 10 years and

>> never experienced " shin splints " or any other knee problems as a

>>consequence. That is what really convinced me that landing technique is far

more

>>important for injury prevention than costly shoes or surfaces. Remember the

great

>>Ethiopian marathoner, Abebe Bikila, who won the Rome Olympic marathon in 1960?

He won

>> the race and trained barefooted, set a new world record at 2:16:2, and

>>was the first African to win an Olympics medal. Then there was also the

great middle

>>distance runner from South Africa, Zola Budd, who also ran barefooted and only

>>started to suffer from lower extremity problems when she started to wear

sponsored

>>shoes. Other than protecting the feet from superficial cuts and injuries, it

>>would appear that the use of expensive running and " aerobics " shoes generally

has far

>>more to do with marketing and money than enhanced efficiency and safety.

Gee:

Dr. Siff,

>Taking the above paragraph into consideration, do you recommend shoes

>such as Chuck s', that have no air or added cushioning, for

>most types of training and athletic activities. (sprinting, jumping,

>etc.)

>

>[i haven't a clue what Chuck shoes are - you will have to educate me!

>For sprinting and field athletics, since traction is a vital issue and the

>events are of such short duration, that the use of spikes is most advisable.

Mel

>Siff]

I personally use a shoe very similiar to the Chuck , so I'm taking a

shot at this.

The Chuck has a waffle sole with cushioning. I personally by a

similiar shoe made off-shore and no-name brand and cut out the waffling so

I have a solid rubber sole with very a very strong support and structure

between the sole and the body of the shoe. This allows me to use

powerlifting techniques such as 'spreading the floor' (as advocated by

, Tate, etc.) from a very stable base. The lack of heel is also good

for the powerlifting squat if the person has sufficient flexibilty.

I use the same shoe for my Olympic lifting variations, but it is used out

of convenience and recognizing I don't have an ideal set-up for the olympic

lifting variations anyhow. I also use it for indoor sprinting, etc.

During a Supertraining camp I noticed Mel lifts in an old pair of leather

shoes designed for Olympic lifting. These offer the same advantage of firm

sole and strong support on the sides of the shoe, but they have a heel and

the sole appears to be made of leather. As I recall Mel noted that there

was some 'give' in the contact of the shoe and the properly made lifting

platform he used which was an important consideration in the split position

of the jerk and snatch (if you use a split snatch) because too abrupt an

amortization can be hard on the structure of the knee. The heel is also

designed specifically for Mel's biomechanical structure - heel height

varies by athlete and can even vary over time. Dreschler mentions an

American lifter (can't recall which one) who went to a lower heel height

because of knee injuries in his book on Olympic lifting.

Mel - forgive me if I've miscontrued what you said or took something out of

context here. I'm going by memory from a few years back.

[i never wear leather-soled shoes for sport or daily wear, because they are

too slippery and too rigid. My lifting shoes have a very low heel and I

returned

my expensive wooden-soled Adidas Weightlifting shoes because they were too

heavy,

and too inflexible, plus the heels were far too high to suit my structure. For

weightlifting

I always wear rubber-soled shoes with a low heel and a minimum amount of " give " ,

so that

I have good traction and no buckling of the shoes in any direction during the

jerk.

Nowadays I wear a very comfortable, fairly stable pair of shoes that I bought at

Walmart (for under $15) - then again, I am no longer lifting the same loads that

I used to

in my earlier days! Mel Siff]

So for some activities I think Chuckies can be good. For others not so

good. What surface you are training on can also affect what is ideal

footware. On grass barefoot training can be quite pleasant. Running in an

inner city with broken glass and other debris all over the place you may

want to wear something with some protection. OTOH, there is no question

there is little need for expensive 'aerobic' shoes and other such marketing

innovations.

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

Mel wrote,

> For weightlifting I always wear rubber-soled shoes with a low heel and a

minimum amount of

> " give " , so that I have good traction and no buckling of the shoes in any

direction during

>the jerk. Nowadays I wear a very comfortable, fairly stable pair of shoes that

I

>bought at Walmart (for under $15) - then again, I am no longer lifting the same

>loads that I used to in my earlier days! ]

I use much the same shoe. In fact when I found them recently on for $10 CDN

(about $6 US) I purchased three pairs and began my process of pulling out

the insole and cutting out the waffles. It takes some time to get a pair

ready, but I probably have shoes for the rest of my life.

[it seems as if we really think alike - I also buy several pairs of the same

type of

shoe as soon as I find one which suits me! Mel Siff]

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

The commonly made shoe we've got several PL using here is a " Macgregor " -

sold around $20 US at Walmart, probably available on line if someone cannot

find a Walmart around - a white or black lace up evenly soled shoe with a

very solid sole - it's seeming to be useful particularly with the bigger

guys who weigh a lot, and stable when they squat too. Wiggly should be

avoided for most people - i think the wiggly feeling is part of a hesitation

in one's squat or deadlift...and I don't think wiggly is a good idea for the

leg press either... shoes that are great for other purposes are not the same

when it comes to loading them and expecting the cushioning to react evenly.

For leg press I like the Addidas TR2's - trail running shoes I bought a

while back - waffle but very solid, the sole doesn't compress or wiggle

under a 1000 lbs so it's a good pair for me, biggest thing is good traction

and not wiggly! I do use a pair of Reebok DMX - for my bench shoes, believe

it or not. VERY good traction, and they seem to allow me to dig heels in

well. As long as you aren't putting a huge amount of weight on them, they

seem to work nicely....but compress those DMX and you get a major wiggle!

Years ago I spent the big $$ and bought a pair of SAFE squat shoes and love

them, use them to squat only, but not everyone's up for that sort of

investment. Those are lifetime shoes - and if you squat 10 years or more,

well worth it if they fit your needs. Sometimes they have them for sale on

deepsquatter and other venues. I've got nearly 6 years on mine already and

they still act virtually new.

Some PL still use a wrestling shoe or weightlifting shoe with a distinct

heel and resole them as needed too - these too are lifetime shoes.

I think people need to experiment with the shoes and it's an important part

of how you squat really - my DL shoes are the $5 Titan DL slippers, replaced

when they show signs of wear.... but the traction is great, they work for

me, so I'm not going to a more expensive shoe there. When something works,

like noted, you don't want to lose that continuity - you buy several

if it works.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

<responding to the below>

>Mel wrote,

>

>> For weightlifting I always wear rubber-soled shoes with a low heel and a

minimum amount of

>> " give " , so that I have good traction and no buckling of the shoes in any

direction during

>>the jerk. Nowadays I wear a very comfortable, fairly stable pair of shoes

that I

>>bought at Walmart (for under $15) - then again, I am no longer lifting the

same

>>loads that I used to in my earlier days! ]

>

>I use much the same shoe. In fact when I found them recently on for $10 CDN

>(about $6 US) I purchased three pairs and began my process of pulling out

>the insole and cutting out the waffles. It takes some time to get a pair

>ready, but I probably have shoes for the rest of my life.

>

>[it seems as if we really think alike - I also buy several pairs of the

same type of

>shoe as soon as I find one which suits me! Mel Siff]

>

> Hobman

>Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

> Dr. Siff,

>

> Taking the above paragraph into consideration, do you recommend

shoes

> such as Chuck s', that have no air or added cushioning, for

> most types of training and athletic activities. (sprinting,

jumping,

> etc.)

>

> [i haven't a clue what Chuck shoes are - you will have to

educate me!

> For sprinting and field athletics, since traction is a vital issue

and the events

> are of such short duration, that the use of spikes is most

advisable. Mel Siff]

Chuck 's are the shoes Louie like to have his guys

squat in. They're a flat shoe, (no heel) with simple canvas-like

sides without any padding on them. The shoe is a solid color

(usually black) with a white rubber covered toe and a white patch on

the ankel. Some of the squat pictures on the Westside barbell site

show guys wearing Chuck's. Sorry about the assumption.

>

> Gee Roe

> Winter Haven, Fl

[Guest guest]

Gee wrote,

>

>Chuck 's are the shoes Louie like to have his guys

>squat in. They're a flat shoe, (no heel) with simple canvas-like

>sides without any padding on them. The shoe is a solid color

>(usually black) with a white rubber covered toe and a white patch on

>the ankel. Some of the squat pictures on the Westside barbell site

>show guys wearing Chuck's. Sorry about the assumption.

>>

Actually this isn't quite true. They don't have an external heel, but the

heel in the inside is built up around a 1/4 " or by increasing the height of

the waffle in that area.

Minor point. No question they are the preferred shoe of and the WSB

people.

Hobman

Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

I just read through all these shoe posts and I am wondering - why

wear any shoes at all, outside of gym rules? I am not familiar

enough with the demands of doing maximal lifts in competitive

powerlifting or weightlifting to understand. As far as foot

protection goes, none of the shoes in question would prevent anything

more than minor scrapes or bruises - certainly not against the impact

of dropping heavy weights. For regular training, and in the absence

of some orthotic-treated pathology, I think letting the foot spread

out and do it's job without interference is best. I started doing

all squats and deadlift variations barefooted a long time ago, upon

experiencing some knee pain with using shoes, and have been quite

happy with the results.

With the shape of my foot, I would never consider wearing Chuck

s, at any time or for any purpose, as they are extremely narrow

and pointy, crunching my toes and even metatarsals together and

making my foot incapable of providing proper support. In fact, I

can't find any shoes that have enough room for my toes as they are

not designed with the proper trapezoidal shape - they are always

pointy. The only exception is Birkenstocks, and those are

disqualified due to all the extreme orthotic-like lumps built into

the insole.

Once I became aware of the principles of proper foot function,

through yoga practice, I had to throw out all my shoes and buy new

ones around 2 sizes larger. Next to reducing my time spent in

chairs, it was one of them best things I've ever done for the well-

being of my back and lower body.

Perhaps someone will shoot holes in this, but I think of an analogy

to the hand. If you are trying to do pushups, or a handstand, you

spread you hand out to provide stability and support. Cram your

hands into several pairs of tight socks (simulating a tight shoe) and

try to do a handstand or just get into a pushup position and shift

your torso around. You can feel how your entire upper body is

impaired in its attempts to keep you stable and balanced. I can feel

a very similar contrast when I put on a shoe that is not loose enough

in the forefoot and toe box to allow me to spread and extend my toes

and metatarsals.

I haven't switched to barefooted running yet, but I'm thinking about

it...

Wilbanks,

ville, FL

> Gee wrote,

> >

> >Chuck 's are the shoes Louie like to have his guys

> >squat in. They're a flat shoe, (no heel) with simple canvas-like

> >sides without any padding on them. The shoe is a solid color

> >(usually black) with a white rubber covered toe and a white patch

on

> >the ankel. Some of the squat pictures on the Westside barbell site

> >show guys wearing Chuck's. Sorry about the assumption.

> >>

>

> Actually this isn't quite true. They don't have an external heel,

but the

> heel in the inside is built up around a 1/4 " or by increasing the

height of

> the waffle in that area.

>

> Minor point. No question they are the preferred shoe of and

the WSB

> people.

>

> Hobman

> Saskatoon, CANADA

[Guest guest]

Mel Siff wrote:

" I patronise Walmart, Payless Shoes or K-Mart and rarely need to spend more

than $15 a pair of athletic shoes that serve me well and very comfortably for a

few years.

At that price, you can afford to discard them after a year or use them for

working in the garden. "

** Don't you care about fashion Dr Mel?

[Mel Siff: Interesting that you should ask that, because a national magazine

here invited a group of

fashion " experts " view a special show in the USA. Some of the professional

models were

wearing genuine " fashions " and others were attired in off the shelf clothing

from Walmart.

The result? The " fashion experts " were not able in a single case to distinguish

which were

the " el cheapo " clothes often costing over 50 times less. Their tragic excuses

included comments

like " but rayon doesn't have the character or ambience " , " the Walmart fabrics

won't last as

long " or " the cheap fashions don't follow the body's line when you sit down " .

My case rests!

As a matter of interest, is it possible that " fashion experts " constitute the

largest group of

pseudo-experts or pseudo-gurus in any field in the world? After all, each one

of us is

qualified to make a subjective visual judgment of what clothing looks like -

what earthly

qualifications does one need to be able to do that? Who needs a fashion guru to

tell anyone

what you should like on your body or not? Yet, brainwashed wealthy people all a

around the world fall for their line - hook, line and sinker! They teeter

around on the most

impractical, unergonomic and unhealthiest shoes available, wearing the most

fragile of

constrictive, " postmodern " fashions, thinking that fine feathers really make

fine birds.

Fine for guano-stepping pigeons on rooftops, but not fine for intelligent human

beings!]

Shanahan

Melbourne

Australia.

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Hi -

gyms require footwear generally (there might be someone somewhere who

doesn't, but it's been my experience...even taking one's shoes off CAN get

you run out). Shoes are also required in competition, and there are rules

restricting in the federations I compete in with regard to what you can or

cannot wear on the platform.

Matter of fact, that applies to everything you're wearing as a competing PL

in some federations.... so if you're not competing and have a home gym, by

all means feel free to go barefoot if it pleases you.

I've DL'd stocking footed at times....and a DL slipper isn't much of a shoe,

it meets the requirement of gyms as a " shoe " and it's competition legal...

But mainly that's the requirement, that you wear shoes of a variety that are

permitted - for the competing athlete, yes it can be expensive - but like I

said, over a lifting lifetime, a good belt or the right shoes that you are

happy with, these do matter. Like I've said, a $5 pair of DL slippers work

for me... but I did invest in squat shoes. And in my belt. At this stage

of competition, legality and function both must be taken into account.

As for running barefoot - Zola Budd etc? if there are no hazards to injure

you, cut your feet or frostbite - why not? there are after all barefoot NFL

kickers...adn there is a LOT Of hazard there...getting trod on etc?

Warmest regards,

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

wrote:

>I just read through all these shoe posts and I am wondering - why

>wear any shoes at all, outside of gym rules? I am not familiar

>enough with the demands of doing maximal lifts in competitive

>powerlifting or weightlifting to understand. As far as foot

>protection goes, none of the shoes in question would prevent anything

>more than minor scrapes or bruises - certainly not against the impact

>of dropping heavy weights. For regular training, and in the absence

>of some orthotic-treated pathology, I think letting the foot spread

>out and do it's job without interference is best. I started doing

>all squats and deadlift variations barefooted a long time ago, upon

>experiencing some knee pain with using shoes, and have been quite

>happy with the results.

>I haven't switched to barefooted running yet, but I'm thinking about

>it...

>

> Wilbanks,

>ville, FL

>

>

>

>> Gee wrote,

>> >

>> >Chuck 's are the shoes Louie like to have his guys

>> >squat in. They're a flat shoe, (no heel) with simple canvas-like

>> >sides without any padding on them. The shoe is a solid color

>> >(usually black) with a white rubber covered toe and a white patch

>on

>> >the ankel. Some of the squat pictures on the Westside barbell site

>> >show guys wearing Chuck's. Sorry about the assumption.

>> >>

>>

>> Actually this isn't quite true. They don't have an external heel,

>but the

>> heel in the inside is built up around a 1/4 " or by increasing the

>height of

>> the waffle in that area.

>>

>> Minor point. No question they are the preferred shoe of and

>the WSB

>> people.

>>

>> Hobman

>> Saskatoon, CANADA

>

>

>

>

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>

>

[Guest guest]

I must be lucky or scary-looking or something. I have never had a

problem taking my shoes off at several gyms for squats, SLDs and calf

raises. While I understand the necessity of complying with rules in

many situations, I guess I'll have to become more specific and extend

my questioning to the reasons behind the rules themselves. Are these

just 'because we say so' rules, or holdovers from from a prior era?

In the absence of good reasons, I still contend that lifting

barefooted is superior - in the absence of pathologies using orthotic

treatment strategies (which I also have serious reservations about).

Safety wise, although barefootedness among all that iron may seem

strange, I seriously don't think it represents a significant increase

in risk. Most athletic shoes are not substantial enough to protect

against crushing forces of falling iron.

If a worker at the gym where I sometimes train complained about my

lack of footwear, I'm afraid I'd be obliged to point out the safety

hazards all around me that were a direct result of employee laziness -

perhaps to his boss. If they are so concerned about my safety, why

are plates leaning against racks, weights, bars, and props not

properly put away, carabiners on the pulley machines nearly worn

through, etc... Perhaps at this gym the employees know they live in

glass houses...

Wilbanks

ville, FL

----------

Schaefer wrote:

> Hi -

>

> gyms require footwear generally (there might be someone somewhere who

> doesn't, but it's been my experience...even taking one's shoes off CAN get

> you run out). Shoes are also required in competition, and there are rules

> restricting in the federations I compete in with regard to what you can or

> cannot wear on the platform.

>

> Matter of fact, that applies to everything you're wearing as a competing PL

> in some federations.... so if you're not competing and have a home gym, by

> all means feel free to go barefoot if it pleases you.

>

> I've DL'd stocking footed at times....and a DL slipper isn't much of a shoe,

> it meets the requirement of gyms as a " shoe " and it's competition legal...

>

> But mainly that's the requirement, that you wear shoes of a variety that are

> permitted - for the competing athlete, yes it can be expensive - but like I

> said, over a lifting lifetime, a good belt or the right shoes that you are

> happy with, these do matter. Like I've said, a $5 pair of DL slippers work

> for me... but I did invest in squat shoes. And in my belt. At this stage

> of competition, legality and function both must be taken into account.

>

> As for running barefoot - Zola Budd etc? if there are no hazards to injure

> you, cut your feet or frostbite - why not? there are after all barefoot NFL

> kickers...adn there is a LOT Of hazard there...getting trod on etc?

>

> Warmest regards,

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

> wrote:

> >I just read through all these shoe posts and I am wondering - why

> >wear any shoes at all, outside of gym rules? I am not familiar

> >enough with the demands of doing maximal lifts in competitive

> >powerlifting or weightlifting to understand. As far as foot

> >protection goes, none of the shoes in question would prevent

anything

> >more than minor scrapes or bruises - certainly not against the

impact

> >of dropping heavy weights. For regular training, and in the

absence

> >of some orthotic-treated pathology, I think letting the foot spread

> >out and do it's job without interference is best. I started doing

> >all squats and deadlift variations barefooted a long time ago, upon

> >experiencing some knee pain with using shoes, and have been quite

> >happy with the results.

>

> >I haven't switched to barefooted running yet, but I'm thinking

about

> >it...

> >

> > Wilbanks,

------

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