Re: Powerlifting and Lifting Aids

[Guest guest]

The original question given was regarding the training of form in the

deadlift - so I'll address that then the issues given by your comments too.

I maintain it's necessary to train the deadlift - and for those lifters

whose best lift IS the pull, why wouldn't you train it as a form lift? From

what I've always heard of Lamar Gant, he trained his deadlift hard and

heavy. He didn't leave his form to chance - and from the looks of the

program posted to PLUSA it was more than a challenging routine - I myself

would hesitate to use that one, the volume at high levels might not be in my

best lifting interest! And Lamar was undeniably strong, with or without a

SUIT! you cannot say he got oh 300 lbs of a deadlift suit...<laughing>.

I'd say the MOST he could have gotten given suits previously available maybe

30-50 lbs? tops? That still leaves Lamar pulling around 650 or better by

his own body strength.... and for reference he shows when he suggests

putting the suit on (the routine published this year in PLUSA).

With regard to your comments - I'm a lifetime drug free lifter. No you

probably can't prove that - beyond interviewing my family, friends, and the

fact I've taken and passed the USAPL tests, including OMT, and one IOC test

for IPF WMR (yup. success = drug testing, even when you personally haven't

ever done anything to worry about...lol). I also have a good pull without

my suit - easily over 405 with a belt only - I did some reps recently out of

curiosity as to that last cycle. I haven't maxed out raw in some time - it's

not really appropriate for someone who is competing equipped. However, you

don't get points in PL for not using what your competition uses within the

rules (and certainly not at nationals or worlds, where the pounds count!) -

and I do compete in the strictest federation with undeniably the toughest

referees in the sport, coupled with drug testing and other means of leveling

the field. I also have sufficient strength that any day I care to, I will

deadlift 4 plates wihout a suit, just my belt (as long as I'm not pregnant

or dead, the only 2 conditions that could prevent me at this time...). As a

conventional puller (reference research briefs posted otherwise previously

on ST regarding the actions of ab rectus in the conventional pull) I DO use

a belt.

IF we are to go by your commentary here, we should not use belts either, to

be ENTIRELY RAW? I do know a few competitors here in Colorado who use

neither belt nor suit in the deadlift...part of it being for comfort - they

tend to be large heavy men with big waists, and belt and suit make it

IMPOSSIBLE for them to reach the bar. For a guy to deadlift 725 without

either belt or suit? I also saw a 198'er here do 680 to open in belt

only....(plus some of these suits are hardly suits, they are more honorary

singlets having been stretched out and never taken in....caught 1 guy here

sleeping in an alleged Squat suit at a meet.....!)

Which federations do you compete in? or have you ever competed powerlifting?

I'm just curious as to what you have done in this sport that you dislike the

usage of equipment so drastically. There is no rule in place in USAPL that

requires the usage of suits - I think there might be some " raw " competitions

in usapl and also AAU, other federations. You are always free to compete

without steroids, without suits, without anything but your own self, you

must however wear a singlet and other basic clothing....

Oh and one more point - are you going to outlaw sumo then as unfair - for

the shorter lockout? that too can be a point given some of the more recent

controversy about bench lockouts being extremely short....

Nothing is ever easy in powerlifting, it's a sport with many federations and

no answers at this point in time. I'm sure if you want to compete drug free

raw you can find someone who will test you and also approve of your lifting

in such a fashion - perhaps you can set records there. But the comments

regarding equipment need to realize that people have to always be strong

BEFORE the addition of any equipment - I am not buying that Lamar couldn't

pull pretty close to his records wihtout a suit...and at 132 that's

undeniably strong anywhere you like to take it! I know I can at this time,

pull close to my own IPF WMR without my suit. I agree wiht the limitations

strictly placed on the lifts, the use of nothing that IOC does not permit

with regard to supplements, and the strict limitations on equipment as ruled

by USAPL and IPF. I choose to compete there, to support them with my money,

my time, and my lifting.

So I suggest that if you can find one you like, support it by way of your

competing and other means, volunteer to keep the federation alive. It's

really all anyone who wishes PL competitions to continue can do. Support

what you believe in, and continue to lift. Perhaps someone else in our

wideflung membership here at ST will know of the rest of the raw

federations - or there may be more listed in your PLUSA or by web search.

With regard to your commentary on high jumpers - I'm not qualified to

comment there. I don't think a bench shirt would aid a discus thrower (as I

AM qualfied to comment on discus, having formerly competed that event.) so

perhaps there is not much parallel to your high jumper scenario.

Good luck in your future lifting,

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Powerlifting and Lifting Aids

>Was: Deadlift Myths

>

>Mel Siff:

>

><< If you can do well in the deadlift without much technical training in

this lift, we are

>then forced to conclude that it cannot be very technically demanding. Any

comments? >>

>

>** From what I've heard, the real skill is overcoming suit resistance and

pulling

>oneself down to the bottom starting position--the suit then overcomes the

>greater(%?) part of overcoming inertia. Are there any suit-free lifters

with

>an opinion --or at the risk of showing my age and ignorance--any

suit-free,

>drug-free lifters with an opinion?

>

>I don't even care to hear about poundages anymore--unless its a drug clean

and raw

>meet--and from what I understand there's no way to really test for drugs.

Why

>don't they just use a crane as a lifting aid? What powerlifting used to be

has now

>become far more a matter of equipment and supplementation than unaided

strength.

>

>I'm surprised high jumpers haven't used these suits--then again, it would

take

>some pretty strong hip flexors to get the take-off leg in position--maybe

they

>could use a one-legged suit, hop down the approach on the non-garmented

leg,

>hop up in the air descending on the garmented leg and use the stored

elastic

>energy generated during the descent for the takeoff. Now we have a new

topic

>to debate -- does a stretch suit have a stretch reflex--at what

decel/acceleration ?

>

>Jerry Telle

>Lakewood Colorado USA

>jrtelle@...

>

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Schaefer writes:

<Good luck in your future lifting,>

** Hi -- The lifts you mentioned and your honesty were worthy criteria for

apraisal(admitedly mine) and are quite impressive. I guess if one of your

goals in life is to compete and compete sucessfully then you have to use

aids--lifting clean is proof your whole soul is not for sale. Maybe the sport

could be renamed -- power assisted lifting.

If you can demonstrate to me how, what I can lift(ed) matters in any of

this--I'll be glad to pass it on.

<Oh and one more point - are you going to outlaw sumo then as unfair - for

the shorter lockout? that too can be a point given some of the more recent

controversy about bench lockouts being extremely short....>

** No more than I would have disallowed Anallos long arms or Lamars

scoliosis--though the point COULD be argued-Super wide foot placement that

is. There is still a grip width for the bench isnt there?

<Nothing is ever easy in powerlifting, it's a sport with many

federations and no answers at this point in time.>

** How many Olympic lifting federations are there? They had to drop the

press(sadly) due to definition/judging problems--what about the sport

inhibits powerlifting organizations from getting together and deriving a

common definition?

<But the comments regarding equipment need to realize that people have to

always be strong BEFORE the addition of any equipment - >

** Then why use the equipment ? Are we comparing strength or equipment--maybe

certain body configurations are assisted to different degreees. Or are we

comparing (not in your case) who has the greatest salary/pharamacy bill?

<I am not buying that Lamar couldn't pull pretty close to his records wihtout a

suit...

and at 132 that's undeniably strong anywhere you like to take it! I know I can

at this time,

pull close to my own IPF WMR without my suit..>

** I couldn't agree with you more--but now we'll never know.

<I choose to compete there, to support them with my money, my time, and my

lifting>

** Well I admit your spirit and conviction help explain and justify (to me),

much about your involvement. If you were asked to vote for clean and raw

would you?

<With regard to your commentary on high jumpers - I'm not qualified to

comment there. I don't think a bench shirt would aid a discus thrower (as I

AM qualfied to comment on discus, having formerly competed that event.) so

perhaps there is not much parallel to your high jumper scenario.>

** The high jumper scenario was more of a caricature of lifting suits than

anything to be considered. I have no doubt that proprely designed suits would

aid discus and probably shot, especially rotary throwers/puters. The throwing

arm would be constrained forward and the lead arm back so that some one

approaching the ring would be held in a one arm forward one arm back and

prerotated/torqued trunk position as opposed to the arms forward sleep

walking pose of the bench presser.

My best wishes to you

Jerry Telle

Lakewood Colorado USA

jrtelle@...

[Guest guest]

<< [Of course, someone is going to ask these questions, so I had better start

the ball

rolling: " So all other sports are totally clean of drugs? " What about help

from

their own types of mechanical aid, like padded football gear, swimming and

cycling

suits, running spikes and springy sprint tracks and special composite

poles...? "

No, it is not only powerlifting which needs to be scrutinised in this manner,

but all

sports, especially those professional sports where cover-ups are rife, drug

tests

are often a farce and large sums of money are involved. The saying: " He who

is

without sin, throw the first stone " comes to mind. This is not to condone

the use of

any legal or illegal " ergogenic aids, but simply to point out the huge

hypocrisy that

is rife in sport today. We might even turn our critical spotlight on film

and pop

stars who are never tested for drugs before they perform, yet they are adored

by

millions despite all their misdemeanours. If we are going to be so

intolerant about

certain athletes, then we had better be fair and be equally intolerant to all

hero

figures and leaders in our modern world. Mel Siff] >>

Amen, though I'm not in total accord with " equally intolerant " , A free press

is the key to democracy, get all these cards on the table and let us

decide--its time that imagery(visual) is recognized for what it is --Tolstoy?

said, " What a strange illusion it is to suppose that beauty is goodness "

Jerrry Telle

Lakewood Colorado USA

jrtelle@...

[Guest guest]

Kennely lift at the WABDL meet was a exhibition lift.

The shirt he used was not legal in WABDL.

Since he was only doing an exhibition he was not eligible for drugtesting, and

his lift wont be a record in the WABDL.

No looking away or hypocrisy.

Im pretty sure that Kennely would be one of the strongest benchers with or

without equipment.

/Niels Stærkjær

Denmark

Powerlifting and Lifting Aids

> I would like to echo Mr. Telle's comments on the outlandish numbers achieved

> in various lifts in the sport of powerlifting. As well i do not want to hear

> anymore about these so called records when they are obviously due to special

> suits and drugs. I guess the goal is to train for the suit because all in

> all isn't that really the goal. Guys like Dave Tate stuggled he said six

> years to add an incredible 15 pounds to his bench record to finally hit the

> 600 pound mark.... and yeah what do you know triple poly suits are know out

and

> finally 600 pounds. Then there is Kennelly with an 800 lb bench press.

> One statement i heard was Kennelly is " god " and i guess some people were born

> to bench. This is ridiculous. Yeah, way to go, you are my hero. I will

> think of you on Sundays when i am attending my local church.

>

> But yet some continue to deny carryover numbers and influence of drugs. I

> mean i saw on the WABDL (world association of bench and deadlifting) that

> Kennelly competes in and they claim to test for steroids, clenbuterol,

> and speed, as well as abnormally high testosterone levels. How blind can you

> be? I guess when someone is producing the best numbers out there and they

are

> in your organization then it is time to look away.

>

> What a shame. What a joke.

>

> [Of course, someone is going to ask these questions, so I had better start the

ball

> rolling: " So all other sports are totally clean of drugs? " What about help

from

> their own types of mechanical aid, like padded football gear, swimming and

cycling

> suits, running spikes and springy sprint tracks and special composite

poles...? "

> No, it is not only powerlifting which needs to be scrutinised in this manner,

but all

> sports, especially those professional sports where cover-ups are rife, drug

tests

> are often a farce and large sums of money are involved. The saying: " He who

is

> without sin, throw the first stone " comes to mind. This is not to condone the

use of

> any legal or illegal " ergogenic aids, but simply to point out the huge

hypocrisy that

> is rife in sport today. We might even turn our critical spotlight on film and

pop

> stars who are never tested for drugs before they perform, yet they are adored

by

> millions despite all their misdemeanours. If we are going to be so intolerant

about

> certain athletes, then we had better be fair and be equally intolerant to all

hero

> figures and leaders in our modern world. Mel Siff]

>

> Diamond CSCS

> Mesa, Arizona

>

> * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you

> wish them to be published!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Please check your facts, sir, before making offensive statements with

such resolve. I have followed Dave's progress for the last 3 years. The

man has gone through hell. After tearing his pecs several times (if I

remember correctly, I think he tore his shoulder too), his bench went

down to mid 500. After finally figuring out what training he will

respond to best, he finally hit his 600 (a net increase of 15 but in

reality, an increase of 55 lbs because his last best was 545). He did

not use a shirt any different than before.

Regardless of the shirt they use, there are perhaps 40 people in the

world who can bench press over 700 lbs (I haven't checked the latest top

100). Only one other person has been recognized with an 800 lb press -

. Kennelly is #2. Do you know how many people there are in

the world today? Can you divide?

Kennelly did not compete in the WABDL, he was a guest lifter performing

an exhibition. So what he wore or what he has in his blood is not of

their concern because he is not staking claim at the meet winning total,

much less the federation's records. If he is claiming he is drugfree

then I would agree that it's silly and hypocritical but I'm not aware

that he has.

There are many fanatic cults (often referred to as religions) and

powerlifting happens to be one of them. And when some of them go to

their church, they will indeed think of him for in the world of

benchpressing, Kennelly is currently the almighty - the one who has done

what others only dream of.

You can be as condescending as you like to satisfy yourself as never

having to strive for such levels because as we all know, if you were to

take enough steroids and wear enough layers, you could do it any day of

the week and twice on Sunday. One of my favourite sayings that Louie has

is " I have a bottle of test on a triple ply shirt in the back and I have

yet to see it lift an ounce " . Look, the point is that these are still

the strongest men in the world. Shirt or no shirt, drugs or no drugs.

They all wear and take them. 800 may be a superficial number from one

point of view but that doesn't defeat the fact that it's the biggest.

When you succeed in topping it since it's such a joke, be sure to let

PLUSA know and they'll stick your name on top of the list of the

strongest men out of the 6+ billion living in the world today.

What I think is a shame is how someone claiming to be a professional in

the field can take such blindly absolutist views on an aspect of it. I

hope none of your clients are aspiring powerlifters lest you tell them

their dreams are a shame and a joke. Please don't be so fast to dump on

things.

Dmitry Voronov

Toronto, Ontario

JRDthreeD@... wrote:

> I would like to echo Mr. Telle's comments on the outlandish numbers

> achieved

> in various lifts in the sport of powerlifting. As well i do not want

> to hear

> anymore about these so called records when they are obviously due to

> special

> suits and drugs. I guess the goal is to train for the suit because

> all in

> all isn't that really the goal. Guys like Dave Tate stuggled he said six

> years to add an incredible 15 pounds to his bench record to finally

> hit the

> 600 pound mark.... and yeah what do you know triple poly suits are

> know out and

> finally 600 pounds. Then there is Kennelly with an 800 lb bench

> press.

> One statement i heard was Kennelly is " god " and i guess some people

> were born

> to bench. This is ridiculous. Yeah, way to go, you are my hero.

> I will

> think of you on Sundays when i am attending my local church.

>

> But yet some continue to deny carryover numbers and influence of

> drugs. I

> mean i saw on the WABDL (world association of bench and deadlifting) that

> Kennelly competes in and they claim to test for steroids,

> clenbuterol,

> and speed, as well as abnormally high testosterone levels. How blind

> can you

> be? I guess when someone is producing the best numbers out there and

> they are

> in your organization then it is time to look away.

>

> What a shame. What a joke.

>

> [Of course, someone is going to ask these questions, so I had better

> start the ball

> rolling: " So all other sports are totally clean of drugs? " What

> about help from

> their own types of mechanical aid, like padded football gear,

> swimming and cycling

> suits, running spikes and springy sprint tracks and special composite

> poles...? "

> No, it is not only powerlifting which needs to be scrutinised in this

> manner, but all

> sports, especially those professional sports where cover-ups are rife,

> drug tests

> are often a farce and large sums of money are involved. The saying:

> " He who is

> without sin, throw the first stone " comes to mind. This is not to

> condone the use of

> any legal or illegal " ergogenic aids, but simply to point out the huge

> hypocrisy that

> is rife in sport today. We might even turn our critical spotlight on

> film and pop

> stars who are never tested for drugs before they perform, yet they are

> adored by

> millions despite all their misdemeanours. If we are going to be so

> intolerant about

> certain athletes, then we had better be fair and be equally intolerant

> to all hero

> figures and leaders in our modern world. Mel Siff]

>

> Diamond CSCS

> Mesa, Arizona

>

> * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of

> residence if you

> wish them to be published!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well and I will go one further Niels.

Someone else asked me the other day - will there be 700 lb benches in the

IPF?

I had to say no - not likely, with the 2-3 second pauses, and the single ply

shirt, and drug testing. I'm not sure we'll see one for some time.

What's your opinion?

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado USA

PS Perhaps Niels himself will have the first IPF 700 bench...<how are you

doing of late? lol...>

-----Original Message-----

Kennely lift at the WABDL meet was a exhibition lift.

The shirt he used was not legal in WABDL.

Since he was only doing an exhibition he was not eligible for drugtesting,

and his lift wont be a record in the WABDL.

No looking away or hypocrisy.

Im pretty sure that Kennely would be one of the strongest benchers with or

without equipment.

-----

> I would like to echo Mr. Telle's comments on the outlandish numbers achieved

> in various lifts in the sport of powerlifting. As well i do not want to hear

> anymore about these so called records when they are obviously due to special

> suits and drugs. I guess the goal is to train for the suit because all in

> all isn't that really the goal. Guys like Dave Tate stuggled he said six

> years to add an incredible 15 pounds to his bench record to finally hit the

> 600 pound mark.... and yeah what do you know triple poly suits are know out

and

> finally 600 pounds. Then there is Kennelly with an 800 lb bench press.

> One statement i heard was Kennelly is " god " and i guess some people were born

> to bench. This is ridiculous. Yeah, way to go, you are my hero. I will

> think of you on Sundays when i am attending my local church.

>

> But yet some continue to deny carryover numbers and influence of drugs. I

> mean i saw on the WABDL (world association of bench and deadlifting) that

> Kennelly competes in and they claim to test for steroids, clenbuterol,

> and speed, as well as abnormally high testosterone levels. How blind can you

> be? I guess when someone is producing the best numbers out there and they

are

> in your organization then it is time to look away.

>

> What a shame. What a joke....

* Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you

wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

benched 710 RAW! It's official in the IPF records. I'm sure

Midote will hit it very soon. So will some Russian guys.

Dmitry Voronov

Toronto, Ontario

Schaefer wrote:

>Well and I will go one further Niels.

>

>Someone else asked me the other day - will there be 700 lb benches in the

>IPF?

>

>I had to say no - not likely, with the 2-3 second pauses, and the single ply

>shirt, and drug testing. I'm not sure we'll see one for some time.

>

>What's your opinion?

>

>The Phantom

>aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

>Denver, Colorado USA

>

>PS Perhaps Niels himself will have the first IPF 700 bench...<how are you

>doing of late? lol...>

>

>-----Original Message-----

>

>

>

> Kennely lift at the WABDL meet was a exhibition lift.

>The shirt he used was not legal in WABDL.

>Since he was only doing an exhibition he was not eligible for drugtesting,

>and his lift wont be a record in the WABDL.

>No looking away or hypocrisy.

>Im pretty sure that Kennely would be one of the strongest benchers with or

>without equipment.

>

>-----

>

>

>

>>I would like to echo Mr. Telle's comments on the outlandish numbers achieved

>>in various lifts in the sport of powerlifting. As well i do not want to hear

>>anymore about these so called records when they are obviously due to special

>>suits and drugs. I guess the goal is to train for the suit because all in

>>all isn't that really the goal. Guys like Dave Tate stuggled he said six

>>years to add an incredible 15 pounds to his bench record to finally hit the

>>600 pound mark.... and yeah what do you know triple poly suits are know out

and

>>finally 600 pounds. Then there is Kennelly with an 800 lb bench press.

>>One statement i heard was Kennelly is " god " and i guess some people were born

>>to bench. This is ridiculous. Yeah, way to go, you are my hero. I will

>>think of you on Sundays when i am attending my local church.

>>

>>But yet some continue to deny carryover numbers and influence of drugs. I

>>mean i saw on the WABDL (world association of bench and deadlifting) that

>> Kennelly competes in and they claim to test for steroids, clenbuterol,

>>and speed, as well as abnormally high testosterone levels. How blind can you

>>be? I guess when someone is producing the best numbers out there and they

are

>>in your organization then it is time to look away.

>>

>>What a shame. What a joke....

>>

>

>* Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you

> wish them to be published!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

>http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

>

>Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you

>wish them to be published!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:37 AM -0600 8/10/02, Schaefer wrote:

>Well and I will go one further Niels.

>

>Someone else asked me the other day - will there be 700 lb benches in the

>IPF?

>

>I had to say no - not likely, with the 2-3 second pauses, and the single ply

>shirt, and drug testing. I'm not sure we'll see one for some time.

>

>What's your opinion?

Where have you been ?

The IPF Bench Press record was set by in 1997 without a

bench shirt. 320 kgs (705 lbs).

And Hidote is only 40 lbs off in the 3 lift and has a good shot at making 700.

So my opinion is we will see it.

:^)

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

[Guest guest]

Apparently not paying as much attention to the bench as the deadlift.... I

meant 800......<grinning>

Mea Culpa, <laughing>

Ok then what are the odds of an 800 bench in the IPF....a decade behind?

how long was the lag in getting one 700 bench in IPF vs near 800 or close

misses in the other parts of the PL world?

Thanks for the info, and my apologies ....but with me it's several reps

and a cloud of dust, competing soon (looking for an excuse hehe) ....

it's the bench anyway, heck I actually took an interest!

Schaefer

Denver CO

-----Original Message-----

Schaefer wrote:

>>Well and I will go one further Niels.

>>

>>Someone else asked me the other day - will there be 700 lb benches in the

>>IPF?

>>

>>I had to say no - not likely, with the 2-3 second pauses, and the single

ply

>>shirt, and drug testing. I'm not sure we'll see one for some time.

>>

>>What's your opinion?

>

>Where have you been ?

>

>The IPF Bench Press record was set by in 1997 without a

>bench shirt. 320 kgs (705 lbs).

>

>And Hidote is only 40 lbs off in the 3 lift and has a good shot at making

700.

>

>So my opinion is we will see it. >:^)

>

> Hobman

* Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

At 10:48 PM -0600 8/10/02, Schaefer wrote:

>Apparently not paying as much attention to the bench as the deadlift.... I

>meant 800......<grinning>

FWIW I don't think we'll be seeing an 800 lb bench without the heavy shirts

for some time either.

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada