Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 Grace, I can't give you a professional answer here but I've been experiencing a bit of the same with the techniques that I've been implementing lately with my son. Right now his main compulsion revolves around getting thoughts out of his head. He voices aloud to me and repeats things over and over to make sure that I heard them correctly or he can't go onto something else. He will say, " Did you understand what I meant, are you sure you heard me right, now you heard what I said there didn't you that I meant " this " and not " that " ... Mom, did you hear me? " He will often go through a major ordeal of analyzing the statement, breaking it into parts and making sure that I understood every single word. This can go on and on. He feels momentary relief by emptying his mind of these thoughts ... and the thoughts vary. Lately, I simply *refuse* to offer him reassurance. I've explained to him why I'm doing that so that he understands that this is a stance against the OCD and not him. I will tell him that he must boss the OCD back and so am I .... that I refuse to give in to the OCD by reassuring *it* and that's what I am doing when I reassure him so often. Many times I simply turn and walk away from him and say nothing when he becomes angry with me. He also has said things to me like, " Mom you are so mean ... I hate you ... why are you doing this to me? " He even threw a pillow at me the other day because he became so angry at me for not reassuring the OCD. I simply am standing my ground ... and whether I'm doing the right thing or not I don't know but it seems to be in the latest research and I'm giving it my best shot to see what happens. If this is all true, then it seems to me that you are doing the right thing. I believe that based upon this theory, if you tidy your daughters room for her, you are offering support to the OCD and not giving her a chance to see that an un-tidy room isn't going to result in something horrible. I do however, when my son is not having an " OCD moment " , let him know how much I love him and that what I'm doing is to help him empower himself to fight the OCD and that I'm not ignoring him but I am ignoring the OCD because it's intrusive in our lives and we're going to fight it together. Again, I can't say what the outcome will be, but I'm hopeful. Hang in there and good luck. Glenda in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 My 9 yr old sometimes has some trouble spots in the mornings, but is doing relatively well most of the time, as evidenced by her overall contentment (whereas initially and in flare-ups she was/is chronically irritable and anxious). If the child has sort of plateaued to a phase of seeming " ease " with daily life, do we keep pushing? (I know I also asked this recently about my older daughter), or do we accept that there will always be a mild " baseline " ocd-ness and that such mildness is " success " ? This am she wanted me to straighten her room for her (would have taken 5 minutes, because is not really messy) but I refused because I see it as an OCD thing. She " needs " to have a neat room, in order to start her day well, but today her timing was thrown off because she watched the 2 yr old while I drove my other daughter to school (the 2 yr old usually comes with us) and my husband was in the shower. So her schedule was thrown off and she wanted me to straighten the room to make up for lost time (she would be washing up in meantime). There is no strict deadline (but self-imposed) as she is homeschooled. Well she had a meltdowm when I refused, screaming, accusing me of being mean. She got more mad when I suggested it was a ritual that could use some " messing up " (we have talked about this before). She insists that it is is peaceful for her to have tidy surroundings and that is not asking too much for me to help once in a while (and she helps me with chores). Sometimes she has me convinced, because it seems an admirable and orderly thing to keep a tidy room, and I have to bug my 7 and 13 yr olds about their messes. Am I going overboard in refusing to help her, in refusing to sympathize with her need for order (as opposed to thinking it would be helpful to " mess it up " ) or in suggesting that it is OCD to " need " her room to be neat and to " need " it to be cleaned on schedule? Sometimes, she does not care if her room gets a bit messy, so I don't know what prompts the greater finickiness at times, maybe waking up grumpy? Also, should these order and neatness and schedule related routines be accepted for her peace of mind? Or discouraged by " exposures " ? It does not interfere much with daily life unless it sometimes gets altered, and in fact seems to refect good habits. It is just the potential (not always anymore) meltdowms with alteration that seems odd. Plus makes me wonder how she would handle am deadlines. I always thought she had some qualities of aspergers as well (need for sameness and difficulty with change) and in those sites, they do, in fact, recommend maintaining order and sameness for the child (which I always find hard to do, having other younger children in the house and separate schedules to juggle). Just confused again... nancy grace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 Dear Grace, When I began to question whether my daughter's insistence on a neat room before bed was OCD or, as she *insisted*, just a preference for tidiness, we asked her therapist. (I was sure it was OCD but Annie was sure it wasn't. Having her therapist as a third party is so great sometimes!!!) She said a good way to tell is to gauge the reaction when it is messy. She reminded Annie again that OCD is very tricky, and it may SEEM to her that she just " likes " her room neat, but if it causes her anxiety and anger when she can't clean it, then it is OCD. She put it like this : " suppose I like to clean my desk before I leave my office every day, just because it makes me feel good. Then one day, I have an appointment way across town that I can't be late for and I have to run out with my desk messy. If it's not OCD how would I feel? (she made Annie answer the questions) I'd probably think, 'darn, I hate leaving my office like this, but I'll do it in the morning.' If it is OCD, how would I feel? (and Annie smiled, and got this one right) I'd be anxious, irritable and I'd be sitting in that meeting sweating bullets about my messy desk and thinking of nothing else. " She then made Annie NOT straighten her room at bedtime for three days which Annie STRONGLY argued against. But she did it. I have to say though - having beaten that one back pretty well, her room is messier than her brother's this week!!!! For the first time in at least a year I've had to say, Annie this room is a mess. You need to straighten it up. And she responds, " hey, it's good for me to have it messy! " Be careful what you wish for!! You might try this with your daughter if you are concerned whether this is really OCD controlling her, or just a preference for neatness. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 ----- Original Message ----- From: NCsongbird66@... >Lately, I simply *refuse* to offer him reassurance. I've explained to him why I'm doing that so that he understands that this is a stance against the OCD and not him. I will tell him that he must boss the OCD back and so am I >... that I refuse to give in to the OCD by reassuring *it* and that's what I am doing when I reassure him so often..<snip>became so angry at me for not reassuring the OCD. I simply am standing my ground ... and whether I'm doing the right thing or not I don't know but it seems to be in the latest research and I'm giving it my >best shot to see what happens Hi Glenda, this is certainly the right thing to do, to help your son experience fewer and fewer of these episodes where he *must* be certain he has been heard and understood. An angry or anxious response from your son is to be expected, at least in the beginning, because your response completes the compulsive loop and gives your son momentary relief from the anxious feelings...but then the doubting thoughts start up again and he is compelled to go through the whole loop again. You should notice fewer and fewer of these episodes over time as your son is less often pushed to make absolutely sure you understand what he has said. It's really hard as a parent to start pulling out of our parts of our kids' compulsions. We got tangled up in them in the first place to keep the peace or try to help our kids feel less anxious. It feels right at first but soon takes on a life of its own since OCD is never satisfied for long and keeps upping the ante. For awhile in our home, I felt like I was in church daily because of what I called the " call and response " loop my daughter would get stuck in. She would say something, I was to respond with a certain thing, she would say something else, I knew what I had to say, or else. On and on, this grew to where I couldn't remember my part well anymore...she would get so distressed when I would fumble my " lines. " At that point I learned about ERP and that I was not helping her by participating, but helping OCD to stay strong and bother her even more. Thank goodness because as I say, this ritual had grown so long I was no longer capable of doing it correctly :-/ Take care, Kathy R. in Indiana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 Hi , I think the signal is (for identifing ocd), as you mentioned, what kind of anxiety or irritability or anger does it produce if you don't do it (tidy up). I guess it is hard for my daughter to recognize this because somedays she is allright with the messiness, other days she is more OCD-ish. She has to keep learning herself to identify it, I think, and that getting angry at others is not really fair. I have to recall, not to be mean spirited, but to see how OCD coupled with greater authority (which my daughter does not really have) can be awful. One time my m-i-l blew up at my husband in a shocking, to me, manner, when we were visiting, and she felt justified in doing so, because my husband had messed up her laundry room to put his laundry in. She could not put it in apparently, until her schedule or order permitted it, and he was out of underwear and he had asked her several times to pls to put it in or let him do it! In fact all her appliances were off limits, even her garbage disposal (which she never even uses) and I could not ever help with dishes. So that time he then left early from our visit. I still think she just thinks it is the proper/right way to be. I don't know if she feels badly for being that way (and her whole house is perfectly ordered, from the silverware drawers to the pantry, closets, etc, and you can see she takes pride in it, but it is like being on eggshells to visit). My dad is also similar to this, but more about his personal things, clothes etc. I never felt it was imposed on the household to such a degree (maybe on my mom who took care of his clothes and still does). At least I never noticed as a kid, only after growing up. So, anyway, I do not want my daughter to be praised or affirmed for perfectionism. nancy grace > Dear Grace, > When I began to question whether my daughter's insistence on a neat > room before bed was OCD or, as she *insisted*, just a preference for > tidiness, we asked her therapist. (I was sure it was OCD but Annie was sure > it wasn't. Having her therapist as a third party is so great sometimes!!!) > She said a good way to tell is to gauge the reaction when it is messy. She > reminded Annie again that OCD is very tricky, and it may SEEM to her that she > just " likes " her room neat, but if it causes her anxiety and anger when she > can't clean it, then it is OCD. She put it like this : " suppose I like to > clean my desk before I leave my office every day, just because it makes me > feel good. Then one day, I have an appointment way across town that I can't > be late for and I have to run out with my desk messy. If it's not OCD how > would I feel? (she made Annie answer the questions) I'd probably think, > 'darn, I hate leaving my office like this, but I'll do it in the morning.' If > it is OCD, how would I feel? (and Annie smiled, and got this one right) I'd > be anxious, irritable and I'd be sitting in that meeting sweating bullets > about my messy desk and thinking of nothing else. " She then made Annie NOT > straighten her room at bedtime for three days which Annie STRONGLY argued > against. But she did it. > I have to say though - having beaten that one back pretty well, her > room is messier than her brother's this week!!!! For the first time in at > least a year I've had to say, Annie this room is a mess. You need to > straighten it up. And she responds, " hey, it's good for me to have it messy! " > Be careful what you wish for!! > You might try this with your daughter if you are concerned whether > this is really OCD controlling her, or just a preference for neatness. > Good luck! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 Thanks Glenda, walking away may be best, since I have already spent plenty of time explaining about messing up " order " and the potential benefits, to my daughter. It seems that in explaining again, I get drawn into her justifications and we can go in circles. nancy grace > Grace, > > I can't give you a professional answer here but I've been experiencing a bit > of the same with the techniques that I've been implementing lately with my > son. Right now his main compulsion revolves around getting thoughts out of > his head. He voices aloud to me and repeats things over and over to make > sure that I heard them correctly or he can't go onto something else. He will > say, " Did you understand what I meant, are you sure you heard me right, now > you heard what I said there didn't you that I meant " this " and not " that " ... > Mom, did you hear me? " He will often go through a major ordeal of analyzing > the statement, breaking it into parts and making sure that I understood every > single word. This can go on and on. He feels momentary relief by emptying > his mind of these thoughts ... and the thoughts vary. > > Lately, I simply *refuse* to offer him reassurance. I've explained to him > why I'm doing that so that he understands that this is a stance against the > OCD and not him. I will tell him that he must boss the OCD back and so am I > ... that I refuse to give in to the OCD by reassuring *it* and that's what I > am doing when I reassure him so often. Many times I simply turn and walk > away from him and say nothing when he becomes angry with me. He also has > said things to me like, " Mom you are so mean ... I hate you ... why are you > doing this to me? " He even threw a pillow at me the other day because he > became so angry at me for not reassuring the OCD. I simply am standing my > ground ... and whether I'm doing the right thing or not I don't know but it > seems to be in the latest research and I'm giving it my best shot to see what > happens. If this is all true, then it seems to me that you are doing the > right thing. I believe that based upon this theory, if you tidy your > daughters room for her, you are offering support to the OCD and not giving > her a chance to see that an un-tidy room isn't going to result in something > horrible. I do however, when my son is not having an " OCD moment " , let him > know how much I love him and that what I'm doing is to help him empower > himself to fight the OCD and that I'm not ignoring him but I am ignoring the > OCD because it's intrusive in our lives and we're going to fight it together. > Again, I can't say what the outcome will be, but I'm hopeful. Hang in there > and good luck. > > Glenda in NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 Hi Grace, your post made me smile, I think we all have been in the odd spot of encouraging our OCD child to be late to school...keep a messy room...not wash hands...not wash hair or have messy hair, or wear stained clothes, eat a cookie off the floor, kiss the dog...this list is endless since OCD is endlessly inventive in the ways it constricts our kids. An awful lot of common OCD compulsions start out with reasonable concerns for cleanliness or whatever, but go over the line and cause much distress and interference with day-to-day life. I think it is unavoidable to go " over the line " in the other direction at times in order to help our kids pull free of a compulsion, the hope is in time and with practice they will be able to take a middle road with these things--normal levels of concern and effort regarding germs, neatness, promptness, or what have you. " Needing " to have a room neat is different than preferring that it is neat, and likely to be an OCD compulsion in a child with this dx. That your daughter became very distressed over her room not getting straightened can be a hint this is an OCD compulsion rather than a simple preference. My daughter too is very convincing, logical and rational when trying to protect a compulsion that seems too big to her to confront at the moment. The further up her hierarchy a compulsion is, the more eloquent and convincing she becomes...that tells me it needs to be broken into small steps to ensure she's successful. The fact that literature about autism and spectrum disorders does suggest complying with needs for order, structure and sameness in these kids confuses me too. I know some kids with autism qualify for the dx of OCD too, and I believe that I have read that kids with these disorders can be successfully treated with CBT/ERP as well. Maybe this question should be posted to one of the list professionals, I know I'd be interested in the answer. Take care, Kathy R. in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: nmlinnen <snip> This am she wanted me to straighten her room for her (would have taken 5 minutes, because is not really messy) but I refused because I see it as an OCD thing. She " needs " to have a neat room, in order to start her day well, but today her timing was thrown off because she watched the 2 yr old while I drove my other daughter to school (the 2 yr old usually comes with us) and my husband was in the shower. So her schedule was thrown off and she wanted me to straighten the room to make up for lost time (she would be washing up in meantime). There is no strict deadline (but self-imposed) as she is homeschooled. Well she had a meltdowm when I refused, screaming, accusing me of being mean. She got more mad when I suggested it was a ritual that could use some " messing up " (we have talked about this before). She insists that it is is peaceful for her to have tidy surroundings and that is not asking too much for me to help once in a while (and she helps me with chores). Sometimes she has me convinced, because it seems an admirable and orderly thing to keep a tidy room, and I have to bug my 7 and 13 yr olds about their messes. Am I going overboard in refusing to help her, in refusing to sympathize with her need for order (as opposed to thinking it would be helpful to " mess it up " ) or in suggesting that it is OCD to " need " her room to be neat and to " need " it to be cleaned on schedule? Sometimes, she does not care if her room gets a bit messy, so I don't know what prompts the greater finickiness at times, maybe waking up grumpy? Also, should these order and neatness and schedule related routines be accepted for her peace of mind? Or discouraged by " exposures " ? It does not interfere much with daily life unless it sometimes gets altered, and in fact seems to refect good habits. It is just the potential (not always anymore) meltdowms with alteration that seems odd. Plus makes me wonder how she would handle am deadlines. I always thought she had some qualities of aspergers as well (need for sameness and difficulty with change) and in those sites, they do, in fact, recommend maintaining order and sameness for the child (which I always find hard to do, having other younger children in the house and separate schedules to juggle). Just confused again... nancy grace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 Hi Kathy, I think what you said about middle of the road, is what we want to acheive, so I get confused when we seem pretty much there, and then there are minor pitfalls. I don't really want to harp on the occasional behaviors when my daughter has improved much, but I think the advice I have just received, about judging the " need " and the subsequent anger/anxiety, answers my question, and it probably can't hurt to keep my daughter' awareness level " up " , even if she is doing better. I guess the idea is that the child wil eventually adopt this exposure " attitude for themselves. I do wonder if autism spectrum, PDD, NVLD, aspergeres, etc education could benefit form info about CBT and ERP, because I have not ever seen it adressed on those lists. The fact that the conditions can overlap, seems to me to suggest that doctors and researchers in the respective fields could perhaps collaborate a bit? I think an ER & p approach has worked well for my daughter in approaching novel situations (step n by step approaches to new social situations and slowly varying classes with aid of the teachers). This could have been called social anxiety, but coupled with her mannerisms, gaze avoidance, difficulty processing conversation, literalness, and obsessive interests, it could have been high aspergers " spectrum " as well. The quality she was significantly accomplished with, to seem to rule out aspergers was her ability to socialze well and freely once the initial anxiety wore off, semmingly " aspies " do not ever become adept at socializing, but then the disorder is mainly studied in boys. I think a different profile might show up in girls. Her next step is to try a team oriented sport, but we have a supportive relaxed instructor at the YMCA. nancy grace > Hi Grace, your post made me smile, I think we all have been in the odd spot of encouraging our OCD child to be late to school...keep a messy room...not wash hands...not wash hair or have messy hair, or wear stained clothes, eat a cookie off the floor, kiss the dog...this list is endless since OCD is endlessly inventive in the ways it constricts our kids. An awful lot of common OCD compulsions start out with reasonable concerns for cleanliness or whatever, but go over the line and cause much distress and interference with day-to-day life. I think it is unavoidable to go " over the line " in the other direction at times in order to help our kids pull free of a compulsion, the hope is in time and with practice they will be able to take a middle road with these things-- normal levels of concern and effort regarding germs, neatness, promptness, or what have you. > > " Needing " to have a room neat is different than preferring that it is neat, and likely to be an OCD compulsion in a child with this dx. That your daughter became very distressed over her room not getting straightened can be a hint this is an OCD compulsion rather than a simple preference. My daughter too is very convincing, logical and rational when trying to protect a compulsion that seems too big to her to confront at the moment. The further up her hierarchy a compulsion is, the more eloquent and convincing she becomes...that tells me it needs to be broken into small steps to ensure she's successful. > > The fact that literature about autism and spectrum disorders does suggest complying with needs for order, structure and sameness in these kids confuses me too. I know some kids with autism qualify for the dx of OCD too, and I believe that I have read that kids with these disorders can be successfully treated with CBT/ERP as well. Maybe this question should be posted to one of the list professionals, I know I'd be interested in the answer. > > Take care, > Kathy R. in Indiana > ----- Original Message ----- > From: nmlinnen > <snip> > This am she wanted me to straighten her room for her (would have > taken 5 minutes, because is not really messy) but I refused because > I see it as an OCD thing. She " needs " to have a neat room, in order > to start her day well, but today her timing was thrown off because > she watched the 2 yr old while I drove my other daughter to school > (the 2 yr old usually comes with us) and my husband was in the > shower. So her schedule was thrown off and she wanted me to > straighten the room to make up for lost time (she would be washing > up in meantime). There is no strict deadline (but self-imposed) as > she is homeschooled. Well she had a meltdowm when I refused, > screaming, accusing me of being mean. She got more mad when I > suggested it was a ritual that could use some " messing up " (we have > talked about this before). She insists that it is is peaceful for > her to have tidy surroundings and that is not asking too much for me > to help once in a while (and she helps me with chores). Sometimes > she has me convinced, because it seems an admirable and orderly > thing to keep a tidy room, and I have to bug my 7 and 13 yr olds > about their messes. > > Am I going overboard in refusing to help her, in refusing to > sympathize with her need for order (as opposed to thinking it would > be helpful to " mess it up " ) or in suggesting that it is OCD > to " need " her room to be neat and to " need " it to be cleaned on > schedule? Sometimes, she does not care if her room gets a bit messy, > so I don't know what prompts the greater finickiness at times, maybe > waking up grumpy? > > Also, should these order and neatness and schedule related routines > be accepted for her peace of mind? Or discouraged by " exposures " ? It > does not interfere much with daily life unless it sometimes gets > altered, and in fact seems to refect good habits. It is just the > potential (not always anymore) meltdowms with alteration that seems > odd. Plus makes me wonder how she would handle am deadlines. > > I always thought she had some qualities of aspergers as well (need > for sameness and difficulty with change) and in those sites, they > do, in fact, recommend maintaining order and sameness for the child > (which I always find hard to do, having other younger children in > the house and separate schedules to juggle). Just confused again... > nancy grace > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2002 Report Share Posted May 8, 2002 Dear Grace, I think you are right on target about your daughter needing to eventually adopt the " exposure attitude " herself. One of the big components of ER/P therapy is addressing the eventuality of relapses - how to recognize one and defeat it before it gets huge. Our therapist reminds Annie often that OCD will always try to creep back into her life in a sneaky way that she won't recognize at first, and the main goal of their work together is for Annie to learn to spot it and " boss it back " almost automatically. She has become a real expert at it for most of the O's and C's, but unfortunately can't handle eating issues or skin picking on her own (yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.