Re: Organic versus conventional

[Guest guest]



Why not spray your pasture with raw milk?I've been reading about

that,there was a story in one of my magazines..Either Dairy Goat

Journal or Hobby Farms,can't remember..

Re: Organic versus conventional

[Guest guest]

We do that with all extra milk and over time and with the addition of different grasses, trial and error, our pastures will improve but milking 18 cows and selling the majority of the milk, even diluting the extra milk, it will take years to improve the pastures. We are striving for totally grass fed but my point is that you don't just make that decision and run with it. We are constantly making changes as needed to ensure the health of the cows. Dairy cows and beef cows are completely different. A dairy cow will continue to produce milk, depleting her body of vital nutrients and body mass. Jan



Why not spray your pasture with raw milk?I've been reading about

that,there was a story in one of my magazines..Either Dairy Goat

Journal or Hobby Farms,can't remember..

Re: Organic versus conventional

[Guest guest]



I have been following this thread with interest and offer these inputs:

First, I have visited Jan's farm operation. It is the "Gold Standard" for cleanliness and neatness. What she has done and is doing is very impressive.

Second, I don't think a lot of people in this group recognize the difference between a business and a hobby. This is apparent when the discussion of milk prices comes up. Some people get some good milk from hobby farmers at very low prices. Others are offended when farmers try to cover their costs and make a profit. Folks, when you are milking 18 cows, it is going to be an expensive hobby if treated as such. Since there is a limit as to what people can afford to pay for quality milk, there must be restrictions on the costs of production.

Thirdly, Sheri hits the nail on the head about genetics. I have recently acquired a book entitled "Pastures; grazing, hay, and silage crops" published in 1949, coauthored by four people. In it there is a study done in north Alabama about 50 miles from where I live comparing the economics of producing milk on grass and hay alone versus supplementing with grain. This was a university study done with Jerseys, and the results were that more milk could be produced by supplementing with grain but the extra production did not cover the extra costs of the grain.

So where are these cows now? Well that was before the Holstein invasion came to the South in the 1950's These Jerseys were only producing about 10,000 lbs (1,150 gallons) per year. In the fifties as emphasis started to be placed on quantity rather than quality and the costs of production rose but the price of milk did not, these old fashioned Jerseys could no longer make a profit whereas the Holsteins could. Therefore the Jersey breeders either replaced them with Holsteins or worked very hard to change the genetics of the Jersey breed to compete with the Holsteins and boost their production on a high starch, corn supplemented diet. This meant the demise of the dual purpose breeds such as the Red Poll which we raise. In my opinion, this push for production has nearly destroyed the Guernsey breed which today mostly looks like a poor representation of a Holstein rather than the beautiful, gentle, medium framed dairy cattle I remember from the 1950's.

The old genetics we need for 100 % grass are very hard to find and are rarely concentrated in a single herd. About the best you can do is to buy lots of the best heifers you can find, feed as little corn as it takes to maintain body condition and keep the ones which do the best, cull the others, (that involves selling a $1,500 heifer for $600.00) keep a bull from your best cow, and breed up from there till you get back to no grain genetics. How long does this take? According to Gearald Fry, it can take up to 50 years to completely set the genetic makeup in a breed of cattle. I think Cheyene Christianson (a member of this group) has gotten his Holstein herd off grain in a much shorter time but still not over night. (I have done it with horses for 30 years and am now working with the genetics for finishing cattle on grass). I have a Holstein cow which only gets grain when she is being milked. She has an 8 day old calf. Her previous calf was born in Sept of 2008. This is what can happen when a breed which needs grain is fed only grass. This cow has never bred back until I wean her calf and stop milking her. As she gets older, it takes her longer to get her body condition back.

Please forgive this long winded post but the point is that getting the genetics, the land, facilities, equipment, the know how, and the market together for a 100% grassfed, organic based dairy is a very great challange invloving a lot of time, money, and dedication. (It is beyond me.)

Cleve

Re: Organic versus conventional

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group.

Jan

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3374 - Release Date: 01/11/11

[Guest guest]



I have been following this thread with interest and offer these inputs:

First, I have visited Jan's farm operation. It is the "Gold Standard" for cleanliness and neatness. What she has done and is doing is very impressive.

Second, I don't think a lot of people in this group recognize the difference between a business and a hobby. This is apparent when the discussion of milk prices comes up. Some people get some good milk from hobby farmers at very low prices. Others are offended when farmers try to cover their costs and make a profit. Folks, when you are milking 18 cows, it is going to be an expensive hobby if treated as such. Since there is a limit as to what people can afford to pay for quality milk, there must be restrictions on the costs of production.

Thirdly, Sheri hits the nail on the head about genetics. I have recently acquired a book entitled "Pastures; grazing, hay, and silage crops" published in 1949, coauthored by four people. In it there is a study done in north Alabama about 50 miles from where I live comparing the economics of producing milk on grass and hay alone versus supplementing with grain. This was a university study done with Jerseys, and the results were that more milk could be produced by supplementing with grain but the extra production did not cover the extra costs of the grain.

So where are these cows now? Well that was before the Holstein invasion came to the South in the 1950's These Jerseys were only producing about 10,000 lbs (1,150 gallons) per year. In the fifties as emphasis started to be placed on quantity rather than quality and the costs of production rose but the price of milk did not, these old fashioned Jerseys could no longer make a profit whereas the Holsteins could. Therefore the Jersey breeders either replaced them with Holsteins or worked very hard to change the genetics of the Jersey breed to compete with the Holsteins and boost their production on a high starch, corn supplemented diet. This meant the demise of the dual purpose breeds such as the Red Poll which we raise. In my opinion, this push for production has nearly destroyed the Guernsey breed which today mostly looks like a poor representation of a Holstein rather than the beautiful, gentle, medium framed dairy cattle I remember from the 1950's.

The old genetics we need for 100 % grass are very hard to find and are rarely concentrated in a single herd. About the best you can do is to buy lots of the best heifers you can find, feed as little corn as it takes to maintain body condition and keep the ones which do the best, cull the others, (that involves selling a $1,500 heifer for $600.00) keep a bull from your best cow, and breed up from there till you get back to no grain genetics. How long does this take? According to Gearald Fry, it can take up to 50 years to completely set the genetic makeup in a breed of cattle. I think Cheyene Christianson (a member of this group) has gotten his Holstein herd off grain in a much shorter time but still not over night. (I have done it with horses for 30 years and am now working with the genetics for finishing cattle on grass). I have a Holstein cow which only gets grain when she is being milked. She has an 8 day old calf. Her previous calf was born in Sept of 2008. This is what can happen when a breed which needs grain is fed only grass. This cow has never bred back until I wean her calf and stop milking her. As she gets older, it takes her longer to get her body condition back.

Please forgive this long winded post but the point is that getting the genetics, the land, facilities, equipment, the know how, and the market together for a 100% grassfed, organic based dairy is a very great challange invloving a lot of time, money, and dedication. (It is beyond me.)

Cleve

Re: Organic versus conventional

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group.

Jan

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3374 - Release Date: 01/11/11

[Guest guest]

Apologies for my strong “NEVER†without an explanation. I was thinking of conventional dairy raised for the purpose of pasteurization. That’s what I’d avoid. Otherwise, there are many configurations of feeding a dairy cow, with grassfed/organic grains being most preferrable. I have a goat dairy that would be considered conventional (though we feed good local hay year-round and mountain pastures in the summer) because we cannot feed organic due to cost and availability.

OakMoon Farm & Creamerywww.oakmoonfarm.webs.com

[Guest guest]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllll . . . .

I am interested, but . . . getting milk from KS to Ohio . . . might not be feasible. <G>

Ellen

There is a lady in SE Kansas that has dairy cows and calves for sale.....grass fed. She also sells milk, butter, chesse, yogurt, grass fed meats, free range eggs, grass fed chicken and turkey. Email me privately for info if you are interested.

Vickie Osborn

As a buyer/consumer, where do I find 100% grass fed dairy cows?

We do raise our own 100% grass fed beef, and I mught have to start milking . . . but . . . c'mon, I'm lazy and I want to buy some of my food. <G>

Ellen

43748

A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

Excellent post, . I'm not going to say a thing, because you said everything I would have.

Naomi Fournier

Birdsong Farm

http://naomisbirdsongfarm.webs.com/

To: RawDairy Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 6:32:04 AMSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional

 I have been following this thread with interest and offer these inputs:

First, I have visited Jan's farm operation. It is the "Gold Standard" for cleanliness and neatness. What she has done and is doing is very impressive.

Second, I don't think a lot of people in this group recognize the difference between a business and a hobby. This is apparent when the discussion of milk prices comes up. Some people get some good milk from hobby farmers at very low prices. Others are offended when farmers try to cover their costs and make a profit. Folks, when you are milking 18 cows, it is going to be an expensive hobby if treated as such. Since there is a limit as to what people can afford to pay for quality milk, there must be restrictions on the costs of production.

Thirdly, Sheri hits the nail on the head about genetics. I have recently acquired a book entitled "Pastures; grazing, hay, and silage crops" published in 1949, coauthored by four people. In it there is a study done in north Alabama about 50 miles from where I live comparing the economics of producing milk on grass and hay alone versus supplementing with grain. This was a university study done with Jerseys, and the results were that more milk could be produced by supplementing with grain but the extra production did not cover the extra costs of the grain.

So where are these cows now? Well that was before the Holstein invasion came to the South in the 1950's These Jerseys were only producing about 10,000 lbs (1,150 gallons) per year. In the fifties as emphasis started to be placed on quantity rather than quality and the costs of production rose but the price of milk did not, these old fashioned Jerseys could no longer make a profit whereas the Holsteins could. Therefore the Jersey breeders either replaced them with Holsteins or worked very hard to change the genetics of the Jersey breed to compete with the Holsteins and boost their production on a high starch, corn supplemented diet. This meant the demise of the dual purpose breeds such as the Red Poll which we raise. In my opinion, this push for production has nearly destroyed the Guernsey breed which today mostly looks like a poor representation of a Holstein rather than the beautiful, gentle, medium

framed dairy cattle I remember from the 1950's.

The old genetics we need for 100 % grass are very hard to find and are rarely concentrated in a single herd. About the best you can do is to buy lots of the best heifers you can find, feed as little corn as it takes to maintain body condition and keep the ones which do the best, cull the others, (that involves selling a $1,500 heifer for $600.00) keep a bull from your best cow, and breed up from there till you get back to no grain genetics. How long does this take? According to Gearald Fry, it can take up to 50 years to completely set the genetic makeup in a breed of cattle. I think Cheyene Christianson (a member of this group) has gotten his Holstein herd off grain in a much shorter time but still not over night. (I have done it with horses for 30 years and am now working with the genetics for finishing cattle on grass). I have a Holstein cow which only gets grain when she is being milked. She has

an 8 day old calf. Her previous calf was born in Sept of 2008. This is what can happen when a breed which needs grain is fed only grass. This cow has never bred back until I wean her calf and stop milking her. As she gets older, it takes her longer to get her body condition back.

Please forgive this long winded post but the point is that getting the genetics, the land, facilities, equipment, the know how, and the market together for a 100% grassfed, organic based dairy is a very great challange invloving a lot of time, money, and dedication. (It is beyond me.)

Cleve

Re: Organic versus conventional

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group.

Jan

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3374 - Release Date: 01/11/11

[Guest guest]

Excellent post, . I'm not going to say a thing, because you said everything I would have.

Naomi Fournier

Birdsong Farm

http://naomisbirdsongfarm.webs.com/

To: RawDairy Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 6:32:04 AMSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional

 I have been following this thread with interest and offer these inputs:

First, I have visited Jan's farm operation. It is the "Gold Standard" for cleanliness and neatness. What she has done and is doing is very impressive.

Second, I don't think a lot of people in this group recognize the difference between a business and a hobby. This is apparent when the discussion of milk prices comes up. Some people get some good milk from hobby farmers at very low prices. Others are offended when farmers try to cover their costs and make a profit. Folks, when you are milking 18 cows, it is going to be an expensive hobby if treated as such. Since there is a limit as to what people can afford to pay for quality milk, there must be restrictions on the costs of production.

Thirdly, Sheri hits the nail on the head about genetics. I have recently acquired a book entitled "Pastures; grazing, hay, and silage crops" published in 1949, coauthored by four people. In it there is a study done in north Alabama about 50 miles from where I live comparing the economics of producing milk on grass and hay alone versus supplementing with grain. This was a university study done with Jerseys, and the results were that more milk could be produced by supplementing with grain but the extra production did not cover the extra costs of the grain.

So where are these cows now? Well that was before the Holstein invasion came to the South in the 1950's These Jerseys were only producing about 10,000 lbs (1,150 gallons) per year. In the fifties as emphasis started to be placed on quantity rather than quality and the costs of production rose but the price of milk did not, these old fashioned Jerseys could no longer make a profit whereas the Holsteins could. Therefore the Jersey breeders either replaced them with Holsteins or worked very hard to change the genetics of the Jersey breed to compete with the Holsteins and boost their production on a high starch, corn supplemented diet. This meant the demise of the dual purpose breeds such as the Red Poll which we raise. In my opinion, this push for production has nearly destroyed the Guernsey breed which today mostly looks like a poor representation of a Holstein rather than the beautiful, gentle, medium

framed dairy cattle I remember from the 1950's.

The old genetics we need for 100 % grass are very hard to find and are rarely concentrated in a single herd. About the best you can do is to buy lots of the best heifers you can find, feed as little corn as it takes to maintain body condition and keep the ones which do the best, cull the others, (that involves selling a $1,500 heifer for $600.00) keep a bull from your best cow, and breed up from there till you get back to no grain genetics. How long does this take? According to Gearald Fry, it can take up to 50 years to completely set the genetic makeup in a breed of cattle. I think Cheyene Christianson (a member of this group) has gotten his Holstein herd off grain in a much shorter time but still not over night. (I have done it with horses for 30 years and am now working with the genetics for finishing cattle on grass). I have a Holstein cow which only gets grain when she is being milked. She has

an 8 day old calf. Her previous calf was born in Sept of 2008. This is what can happen when a breed which needs grain is fed only grass. This cow has never bred back until I wean her calf and stop milking her. As she gets older, it takes her longer to get her body condition back.

Please forgive this long winded post but the point is that getting the genetics, the land, facilities, equipment, the know how, and the market together for a 100% grassfed, organic based dairy is a very great challange invloving a lot of time, money, and dedication. (It is beyond me.)

Cleve

Re: Organic versus conventional

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group.

Jan

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3374 - Release Date: 01/11/11

[Guest guest]



I second that, Excellent post. People don't understand that all that knowledge for management must be re learned, the genetics re refined for the purpose, and farm infrastructure modified for different management, And you got to keep the animals healthy in the transition. All this takes time money education etc. It took more then a generation to get where we are, we can't just go back in 2 weeks or even a year. We have to take careful measured steps to retrace our way back to true farming.

Matt Shaul

Cranberry Ridge Farm

Animal powered, Artisan cheese,Diversified Farm

"Get Small mix it up and care" Lynn

Re: Organic versus conventional

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group.

Jan

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3374 - Release Date: 01/11/11

[Guest guest]

I feed organic sprouted barley. Even Dr. Karreman of Penn Dutch cow care (one

of the top organic dairy vets) feels that many of the cows he sees would

actually benefit from a little grain or mangles or some such - they put their

heart and soul in the bucket. Just because you feed a little grain doesnt mean

you are feeding soy or corn.

aliza

who currently is just milking goats

>

> I have been reading this and my 2 cents. Just because you feed a concentrate

you are feeding corn. I feed a concentrate and do not feed corn or soy. I just

changed the oil portion to coconut oil as well.

> Now at least I know what is in what I feed. For us organic is not do able

because of cost and availability. You need to ask the right questions and make

the choices for yourself. All the hay we feed is grass and they are on pasture

when we have grass. Considering cost and cow health I am happy with what I get.

> Chris

>

>

>

>

> I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course

they don't want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as

much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer

like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised

animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like

some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are

looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise

in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows

that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

>

[Guest guest]

I feed organic sprouted barley. Even Dr. Karreman of Penn Dutch cow care (one

of the top organic dairy vets) feels that many of the cows he sees would

actually benefit from a little grain or mangles or some such - they put their

heart and soul in the bucket. Just because you feed a little grain doesnt mean

you are feeding soy or corn.

aliza

who currently is just milking goats

>

> I have been reading this and my 2 cents. Just because you feed a concentrate

you are feeding corn. I feed a concentrate and do not feed corn or soy. I just

changed the oil portion to coconut oil as well.

> Now at least I know what is in what I feed. For us organic is not do able

because of cost and availability. You need to ask the right questions and make

the choices for yourself. All the hay we feed is grass and they are on pasture

when we have grass. Considering cost and cow health I am happy with what I get.

> Chris

>

>

>

>

> I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course

they don't want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as

much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer

like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised

animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like

some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are

looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise

in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows

that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

>

[Guest guest]

Just make certain you are using es-free milk.

aliza

>

> Why not spray your pasture with raw milk?I've been reading about

> that,there was a story in one of my magazines..Either Dairy Goat

> Journal or Hobby Farms,can't remember..

> Re: Organic versus conventional

>

[Guest guest]



THANK YOU RICHARD!!!!! Everything you said summed things up in a tidy little package!

We graduated form a hobby farm to a conventional GRASS BASED DAIRY (which grass based is virtually unheard of in our side of the state) We did it for cash flow and a 'job change' for my husband (we used to raise and then custom fed hogs) and other reasons. CHANGE DOES NOT HAPPEN OVER NIGHT! It takes years to get the soils into condition and seed planted. cows bred, calves raised. AND IT TAKES A LOT OF MONEY! Farming IS NOT for the faint of heart!

For the non dairy person out there: did you know it takes TWO YEARS before that cute little calf born last spring produces a calf? That's IF they get bred? So for TWO years you have to feed it and care for it BEFORE it starts to earn its keep!

What gets me about this group, before anyone knows a persons situation, when someone MENTIONS an opposing theory or raising practice that isn't in accordance with the 100% grass fed, GMO free, soy free, etc etc diet and management practices of a farm, some people here are all over that person, and too bad if this offends someone, like stink of S**T!!!! you have no idea what this person is doing. Where they are going, what knowledge they .have. Therefore assumptions are made and, well, frankly, we all should know what happens when you "assume' something. Please think twice before you go bashing someone that you know NOTHING about!

Ro

Re: Organic versus conventional

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group.

Jan

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3374 - Release Date: 01/11/11

[Guest guest]

Doesn’t sound like it’s beyond you at all … great summary Thanks,Sheri Palko, Locust Grove Farm, Farmstead Sheep's Milk Cheeses

[Guest guest]



well said

matt

Re: Organic versus conventional

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group.

Jan

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

No virus found in this message.Checked by AVG - www.avg.comVersion: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3374 - Release Date: 01/11/11

[Guest guest]

There is a lady in SE Kansas that has dairy cows and calves for sale.....grass fed. She also sells milk, butter, chesse, yogurt, grass fed meats, free range eggs, grass fed chicken and turkey. Email me privately for info if you are interested.

Vickie Osborn

As a buyer/consumer, where do I find 100% grass fed dairy cows?

We do raise our own 100% grass fed beef, and I mught have to start milking . . . but . . . c'mon, I'm lazy and I want to buy some of my food. <G>

Ellen

43748

A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

Here;s some food for thought............

I don't disagree with consumers wanting all grass fed, but it is important to know that all grass fed beef is more than likely going to be tough to chew. The grain is what puts the marbling in the meats and makes it tender. Tough to choose between the two.

I want nothing to do with feed lot meat, ever, or antibiotics or hormones, my preference is to buy from a farmer who has the calves on full pasture with a daily dose of grain.

I have had both, and the grass fed beef was just really very very lean and tough to chew, no matter how I cook it.

I prefer a little grain feed and full pasture to grass fed only. Just my thoughts on it.........

Vickie Osborn

From: Crystal Palmer-Bull

To: RawDairy

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:42 PM

Subject: RE: Organic versus conventional

I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

[Guest guest]

Jan,

You are correct. The quality of the pasture IS the key to grass fed. This also

includes winter hay for those that have to feed hay. When I get a call from a

farmer having a hard time keeping weight on the cows, winter hay quality is

usually an issue.Also, grazing too short of grass with too much protein and very

little fiber is another problem many run into.

I graze very tall (not mature) and keep my cows in good condition year around

by avoiding too much protein intake. You can't get quite as tall as me because

your warmer temps will lignify the plant faster, but if you are grazing short

try increasing grazing height. Intensive grazing (rotating) is very important to

maximize forage production.

Do you plant any annuals to fill in the grazing season? Japanese millet and

sorghum sudan are good warm season annuals that can provide high quality grazing

when grass shuts down. They also grow in drought conditions. I plant oats spring

and fall and the cows love it. Turnips work good for late fall grazing.

Soil fertility is also important. Do you add any trace minerals like copper,

zinc, boron, sulfur to increase nutrient density of the pasture?

I've posted this link before, but if you haven't seen it there are some

pictures of some of the annuals I'm growing.

http://www.files.vaes.vt.edu/SPAREC/Cheyenne_Christianson-Handout.pdf

I also use rye and triticale for early spring grazing and late fall if I plant

early enough.

I know many are against tillage, but I was able to grow very high quality oats

for Oct. and Nov. when my pastures were done years ago. Dairy cows need so much

more energy than beef that I feel we can justify some tillage to get the system

working.

If you want to talk more details I am always happy to share.

Cheyenne

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies

hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

> >

> >

> >

> > From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf

Of auntellens@...

> > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PM

> > To: RawDairy

> > Subject: Organic versus conventional

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > If organic was not available . .

> >

> >

> >

> > would you take raw conventional ?

> >

> >

> >

> > Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which

is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

> >

> >

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Ellen

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth........I have also noticed in the raw milk I buy, grass fed has a lot less cream on the milk.

I like my cream, so I buy the grass fed /feed combo milk....and if I remember correctly she had trouble keeping wieght on the dairy cows in the winter with just hay and no grain...............But by all means check out to see what kind of ration they are being fed.

I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don’t want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of Jan HaybertSent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 12:15 PMTo: RawDairy Cc: Jan HaybertSubject: Re: Organic versus conventional

We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer as a group.

Jan

I would NOT … non organic corn is most times Monsanto .. and most foodies hate Monsanto and WILL NOT EAT GMO

From: RawDairy [mailto:RawDairy ] On Behalf Of auntellens@...Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 7:35 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Organic versus conventional

If organic was not available . .

would you take raw conventional ?

Mostly grassfed, but supplemented with corn silage and 'concentrate', which is corn based and has spent distillery grains.

Thanks,

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Grass fed can/should be just as tender. It's in how it is raised. An animal on

grass must still have good rate of gain and it will marble just like grain

fattened beef. We need to really focus on grazing management to produce tender

grass fed. Grass fed beef should be grazing on pasture like I feed my dairy cows

and you will get knock your socks off quality, tenderness, and taste. It is not

easy, but is so worth it.

Thousand Hills Cattle Company is a good example of doing things right. They

are working with the whole system. Genetics, grazing management, and soil

fertility/nutrient dense pastures to produce a consistent high quality product.

Cheyenne

>

> Here;s some food for thought............

>

> I don't disagree with consumers wanting all grass fed, but it is important to

know that all grass fed beef is more than likely going to be tough to chew.

The grain is what puts the marbling in the meats and makes it tender. Tough to

choose between the two.

> I want nothing to do with feed lot meat, ever, or antibiotics or hormones, my

preference is to buy from a farmer who has the calves on full pasture with a

daily dose of grain.

> I have had both, and the grass fed beef was just really very very lean and

tough to chew, no matter how I cook it.

> I prefer a little grain feed and full pasture to grass fed only. Just my

thoughts on it.........

>

> Vickie Osborn

>

[Guest guest]

This is the best way to do it. One mistake many make when getting off grain is

they stop and refuse to go back even if the cows crash. It may take a few years

of low grain, or even part of the year feeding some, to get the system working

correctly. I have a neighbor that would feed a few pounds in the winter and none

during the growing season. After 2-3 years he was able to cut grain out

completely, but he does grow annuals, so that helps.

I really like what you are doing with your neighbors to get local grain. There

are so many benefits besides better price by keeping everything more local.

Cheyenne

>

> We are milking 18 of the 50 cows we have. The others are younger but

> still eat! Our cows are mostly grass fed - 95% to be exact. We live

> in an area (western Tennessee) where there is only one other dairy

> and it is 50 miles away. We have found it extremely difficult to

> find non-GMO corn for our feed. Right now we are having to have feed

> delivered from Kentucky every two weeks. It is so expensive!! Next

> year it will be cheaper because we have contracted with a local

> farmer to grow organic, non GMO corn for us along with other local

> chicken, sheep, and goat farmers who are interested in growing

> organic. We will then be able to mix our own feed.

>

> If anyone else out there is in an area where it is hard to find non-

> GMO corn it might help to form a group of local pig, chicken, sheep,

> and goat farmers who are like-minded and contract with a local farmer

> as a group.

>

>

> Jan

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Belinda, I had not thought of that, but come to think of it I have heard that said about sheep. The haul to town is upsetting releasing some hormone's or something, that makes sense.

Vickie

Vickie,We raise our beef on grass and hay only. When we load the steer up and take it to the processor that meat ends up tough. We've hung them for up to a month and they are still a bit "chewy". When we put out new hay, he puts his head down to eat and Larry shoots him the meat is wonderful. I think the difference is the excitement and stress of loading, unloading and being in an unfamiliar place, not necessarily grain or no grain. That said, we do not process beef for others.Belinda>> Here;s some food for thought............> > I don't disagree with consumers wanting all grass fed, but it is important to know that all grass fed beef is more than likely going to be tough to chew. The grain is what puts the marbling in the meats and makes it tender. Tough to choose between the two. > I want nothing to do with feed lot meat, ever, or antibiotics or hormones, my preference is to buy from a farmer who has the calves on full pasture with a daily dose of grain.> I have had both, and the grass fed beef was just really very very lean and tough to chew, no matter how I cook it.> I prefer a little grain feed and full pasture to grass fed only. Just my thoughts on it.........> > Vickie Osborn> > From: Crystal Palmer-Bull > To: RawDairy > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:42 PM> Subject: RE: Organic versus conventional> > > > > I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don't want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least>

[Guest guest]

getting the animals agitated or stressed releases adrenaline, i believe, which makes the meat tough. the last three times we have loaded cattle onto our hog cart to go the locker they simply walked right on and right off again. Depends, I think, on the breed of the animal, their disposition and how much people interaction they get from the time they are born to the time they are sold. Our fat cattle are hand fed so they are used to people.

RE: Organic versus conventional> > > > > I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of course they don't want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable.. and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least>

[Guest guest]

The most difficult time we had unloading was our bottle baby steer. There was no

way he was going into that building, not even with Momma (me) in front with a

bucket of sweet feed.

> >

> > Here;s some food for thought............

> >

> > I don't disagree with consumers wanting all grass fed, but it is

important to know that all grass fed beef is more than likely going to be tough

to chew. The grain is what puts the marbling in the meats and makes it tender.

Tough to choose between the two.

> > I want nothing to do with feed lot meat, ever, or antibiotics or

hormones, my preference is to buy from a farmer who has the calves on full

pasture with a daily dose of grain.

> > I have had both, and the grass fed beef was just really very very lean

and tough to chew, no matter how I cook it.

> > I prefer a little grain feed and full pasture to grass fed only. Just my

thoughts on it.........

> >

> > Vickie Osborn

> >

> > From: Crystal Palmer-Bull

> > To: RawDairy

> > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 3:42 PM

> > Subject: RE: Organic versus conventional

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I think for the market you are trying to tap.. (my personal opinion) of

course they don't want GMO.. but that buyer is sophisticated and knowledgeable..

and as much as non GMO is important the biggest question is why would you feed a

grazer like a cow.. corn in the first place? These people want naturally raised

animals.. in my experience and cows never ate corn until modern times and like

some posters have said it changes their PH and chinks the whole cycle we are

looking to preserve. One will little interference becuasue the animals are raise

in ideal surroundings for their type. Cow eat grass. A sophisticated buyer knows

that rotational grass feeding is what is needed .. for that market at least

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" I don't disagree with consumers wanting all grass fed, but it is important to

know that all grass fed beef is more than likely going to be tough to chew. The

grain is what puts the marbling in the meats and makes it tender. Tough to

choose between the two. "

This is a great representation of the buying public's opinion of beef. It's a

bit of an oversimplificaton and I doubt the general public will every invest

much time in digging deeper than first impression.

I myself am conflicted about feeding grain to cows. Why does it have to always

be all or nothing? I also believe diet adds special flavor to the meat and milk

and I am not against giving my cows moderate amounts of grain raised in a manner

I feel is appropriate.

Tender, flavorful grass fed beef does exist, but it's much more involved than

simply not giving cows grain. The pasture management of those doing this well is

truly an art not everyone will achieve.

I see lots of folks attempting to tap a niche market who are simply not feeding

grain to cows whose genetics simply won't marble without it. And, just selling

the cow when they feel like it rather than to " finish " it. And, there are so

many other variables such as breed, age, amount of exercise, diet, finishing

diet, handling prior to slaughter, slaughter, aging, wrapping and finally

cooking.

Consumer interest in grass fed meat and dairy is a true opportunity to have the

attention of the public. We all know how short that attention span is and how

quickly they move on to the next new thing. They won't care enough to learn

about all the elements that make their beef purchase great or disappointing.

It's important to make our best effort to raise the cattle we have in the

manner best suited to the breed and the farm to create the best beef we can.

People will buy food for health reasons for a while, but like their New Year's

Resolutions, they'll soon tire of the sacrifice and go back to reliable Big

Beef. On the other hand, food that tastes memorable will always be in demand.

Trying to fit the wrong cows into the wrong feeding and finishing system hurts

everybody. All customers will remember is that all grass fed is not as tasty and

that they have to make a decision between good and good for you. And our moment

will have passed.

Of course this only hits home if your beef is sold by someone who understands

it....