Re: Pre/post-workout supplements versus food

[Guest guest]

The answer to your questions have a lot to do with your goals in the

gym. Are you looking for personal records, simply overall strength &

fitness, or the development of the absolute best possible physique

your genetics will allow?

If your response to the above question is the latter of the three

choices, we have to carefully look at your phrase " assuming that one

is already consuming through balanced nutrition optimal levels of

various vitamins and minerals " and so on.

Personally, as a bodybuilder, and someone who has had (in my opinion

at least) some impact on the lives of friends and families in

drastic improvement of their physiques, I can say this to you: if

you follow the diets either publicized on television/books, or diets

generally accepted as " healthy " , you will be a very sad healthy

person. Usually I do the extreme and say " a health fat person " . If

it was really that easy, a lot more people would be sporting

fantastic physiques, but take a look outside and we see quite the

opposite.

There are so many topics in nutrition that are intrinsic to the

success of your goals, that unfortunately the only people that have

time writing about them have already made lenghty articles that you

can probably find by searching sufficiently.

What I can say about your diet is that you've got quite a bit of

fruits there... rethink that decision. In fact, your whole pre & post

workout meal plans are a big disaster (sorry if that sounds a bit

harsh). All those high glycemic fruits 1 hour prior create an

unnecessary insulin spike. During the workout gatorade is fine, but

its better for post-workout. Post-workout you have chocolate milk --

Terrible choice. Avoid milk & saturated fats after workout. Post

workout meal should be high in protein and high glycemic carbs (ie,

whey protein + glucose/dextrose). A nice protein powder mixed with

gatorade would be almost ideal. 1 hour after that you should be

having again some protein and some complex carbs - milk might

actually be a good idea as the 2nd post-workout meal -- a good

common choice would be for example tuna + pasta or something..

Fructose (the carbohydrates-sugars- found in fruits) are stored by

Insulin as palmitic acid (saturated fat basically, 98% percent of

which is palmitic acid) and this occurs when glycogen stores are

filled up.

Ok, thats enough ranting from me. I hope I've made some sense. good

luck, if you have further specific questions feel free to ask, I'm

sure many others will contribute some great posts shortly.

Eugene Sanik

Brooklyn, NY

> I am aware that a lot has been written about the imprortance of

pre-

> and post-workout carbohydrate and protein meals. I am just

curious

> if there is any real benefit to using the so-called meal

replacement

> powders ( " MRP " ) for such meals as opposed to good old fashion

food.

> Assuming that one is already consuming through balanced nutrition

> optimal levels of various vitamins and minerals that are loaded

into

> the MRPs, is there any additional benefit to such supplements?

>

> For instance, my pre-workout meal (the " workout " consisting of

weight

> training of anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes) usually consists of

> cottage cheese, fruit, honey and a glass or two of water. I will

> drink a carbohydrate drink during my training (a Gatorade-type

drink)

> and immediately after training I consume chocolate milk and a

> banana. Within an hour after that I usually have another easily

> digestable meal such as plain yogurt with cut-up fruit and honey

and

> a glass of grapefruit juice.

>

> So what, if anything, am I missing out on in terms of pre- and

post-

> workout nutrition from my fairly inexpensive grocery item list?

Is

> there any benefit from the various MRP supplements ending with " -

> RX " and including all sorts of expensive manufactured proteins

that I

> am not already getting from the milk protein that I drink and eat

> both before and after training? Is there any benefit to the

> carbohydrates contained along with these expensive whey proteins

that

> I am not already getting from the carbohydrates contained in the

milk

> products, fruit, honey and Gatorade (which I mix from the

> significantly cheaper powder form)?

>

> I am just curious as to the Supertraining Group's view as to

whether

> MRPs are nothing more than a convenient form of ready-made

nutrition

> or whether they add some benefit that is not found in food. My

guess

> is that it is the former.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> A. Levy

> West Hollywood, California

[Guest guest]

<<The answer to your questions have a lot to do with your goals in

the gym. Are you looking for personal records, simply overall

strength & fitness, or the development of the absolute best possible

physique your genetics will allow? If your response to the above

question is the latter of the three choices, we have to carefully

look at your phrase " assuming that one is already consuming through

balanced nutrition optimal levels of various vitamins and minerals "

and so on.>>

***My goal is primarily strength and power. I am a non-competing

powerlifter who has also begun dabbling in olympic lifting. My goals

are to be as strong and powerful as possible while maintaining body

fat less than 10%. Hypertrophy is only a secondary or tertiary goal

of mine. Bodybuilding is not my focus, but that does not mean I am

not interested in maintaining a lean muscular-looking physique and,

frankly, if I can put on muscle at the same time I gain strength and

power, all the better. However, if push comes to shove (assuming it

were a trade off), I would rather have an extra 20 lbs on my max

squat than 5 lbs of extra muscle.

<<Personally, as a bodybuilder, and someone who has had (in my

opinion at least) some impact on the lives of friends and families in

drastic improvement of their physiques, I can say this to you: if you

follow the diets either publicized on television/books, or diets

generally accepted as " healthy " , you will be a very sad healthy

person. Usually I do the extreme and say " a health fat person " . If it

was really that easy, a lot more people would be sporting fantastic

physiques, but take a look outside and we see quite the opposite.

There are so many topics in nutrition that are intrinsic to the

success of your goals, that unfortunately the only people that have

time writing about them have already made lengthy articles that you

can probably find by searching sufficiently.>>

***I do not follow any particular popular diet although I have taken

bits and pieces from a lot of sources. I eat approximately 1 gram of

protein per pound of bodyweight. I eat 6 or more times per day and

consume protein at each meal from a variety of sources including some

of my favorites, fish, eggs, milk, chicken, turkey, steak. I try to

eat at least 3-4 servings of fruit per day, usually apples, grapes

and bananas are on my list as well as orange and grapefruit juices.

I avoid high glycemic carbs except during and immediately after

workouts. I try to eat at least 2 servings of veggies per day. I

try to eat healthy fats from fish oils, nuts and olive oil sources.

I have a Tanita scale and monitor by bodyweight and bodyfat. I

adjust my daily calories based on whether my bodyfat is increasing or

decreasing. If I am trying to put muscle on, I don't mind a little

bit of an increase in BF, as long as it does not get excessive.

<<What I can say about your diet is that you've got quite a bit of

fruits there... rethink that decision. In fact, your whole pre & post

workout meal plans are a big disaster (sorry if that sounds a bit

harsh). All those high glycemic fruits 1 hour prior create an

unnecessary insulin spike.>>

***My pre-workout fruit is an apple which I thought was a low

glycemic index fruit. Am I incorrect in this regard? Also, I am

sure that I have read from several sources that pre-workout

carb/protein meals are as important (if not more so) than the post-

workout carb/protein meal.

<<During the workout Gatorade is fine, but its better for post-

workout.>>

***I thought I had read somewhere that there was some research

showing that there are benefits to consuming a high GI drinks during

exercise to replace depleted glycogen which helps prevent a drop-off

in performance towards the end of a workout. Again, I might be wrong

about this, but I recall having read this somewhere.

<<Post-workout you have chocolate milk -- Terrible choice. Avoid milk

& saturated fats after workout. Post workout meal should be high in

protein and high glycemic carbs (ie, whey protein +

glucose/dextrose). A nice protein powder mixed with gatorade would be

almost ideal.>>

***The chocolate milk I drink is the low fat variety. However it is

high in sugars and protein. I also eat the banana because it is on

the high GI side of the scale. So, from my looking at my meal, I am

eating a high GI carb + protein, low fat meal. Unless there is

something wrong with milk as the source of my post-workout protein

instead of whey, I am unsure what a meal replacement powder or

protein powder would give me that I am not already getting. I am not

trying to be difficult or argumentative -- I just genuinely don't

know what it it that gatorade + whey protein would give me that I am

not getting from lowfat chocolate milk + banana.

<<1 hour after that you should be having again some protein and some

complex carbs - milk might actually be a good idea as the 2nd post-

workout meal -- a good common choice would be for example tuna +

pasta or something. Fructose (the carbohydrates-sugars- found in

fruits) are stored by Insulin as palmitic acid (saturated fat

basically, 98% percent of which is palmitic acid) and this occurs

when glycogen stores are filled up.>>

***My second post-workout feeding is much like my pre-workout meal.

It is a carb + protein meal. The fruit used is, again, what I

thought were low-GI fruits, such as apples and grapes. Also, I

thought that the GI of pasta is significantly higher than that of

fruit.

<<Ok, thats enough ranting from me. I hope I've made some sense. good

luck, if you have further specific questions feel free to ask, I'm

sure many others will contribute some great posts shortly.>>

***Thank you for your input, although you have left me with a few

more questions regarding my understanding of the role of fruit in pre

and post-workout nutrition. Let me ask another question, if you were

to prescribe pre-workout, during workout and post-workout meals to

someone who didn't want to buy supplements (let's assume for the

moment that Gatorade is not a supplement), what would you suggest for

the strength/power athlete who also cares what he looks like to the

ladies ?

[sadly, far too many men have a misconception of what they think attracts

the ladies physically. Some years ago, a Western study revealed that the

majority

of women surveyed do not like excessively muscular men, but preferred men with a

leaner

more athletic build, with tight, muscular buttocks and well-shaped calves and

attractive eyes (this report may have appeared in 'Psychology Today' - others

may

remember more clearly). Relaxed, unposed, confident upright deportment was also

an

important part of the package. Some bodybuilding women objected to this

finding, so it is apparent that the extremely muscular competitive bodybuilding

physique appeals to a specific group of women. Mel Siff]

Sincerely,

A. Levy

West Hollywood, California

[Guest guest]

<<The answer to your questions have a lot to do with your goals in

the gym. Are you looking for personal records, simply overall

strength & fitness, or the development of the absolute best possible

physique your genetics will allow? If your response to the above

question is the latter of the three choices, we have to carefully

look at your phrase " assuming that one is already consuming through

balanced nutrition optimal levels of various vitamins and minerals "

and so on.>>

***My goal is primarily strength and power. I am a non-competing

powerlifter who has also begun dabbling in olympic lifting. My goals

are to be as strong and powerful as possible while maintaining body

fat less than 10%. Hypertrophy is only a secondary or tertiary goal

of mine. Bodybuilding is not my focus, but that does not mean I am

not interested in maintaining a lean muscular-looking physique and,

frankly, if I can put on muscle at the same time I gain strength and

power, all the better. However, if push comes to shove (assuming it

were a trade off), I would rather have an extra 20 lbs on my max

squat than 5 lbs of extra muscle.

<<Personally, as a bodybuilder, and someone who has had (in my

opinion at least) some impact on the lives of friends and families in

drastic improvement of their physiques, I can say this to you: if you

follow the diets either publicized on television/books, or diets

generally accepted as " healthy " , you will be a very sad healthy

person. Usually I do the extreme and say " a health fat person " . If it

was really that easy, a lot more people would be sporting fantastic

physiques, but take a look outside and we see quite the opposite.

There are so many topics in nutrition that are intrinsic to the

success of your goals, that unfortunately the only people that have

time writing about them have already made lengthy articles that you

can probably find by searching sufficiently.>>

***I do not follow any particular popular diet although I have taken

bits and pieces from a lot of sources. I eat approximately 1 gram of

protein per pound of bodyweight. I eat 6 or more times per day and

consume protein at each meal from a variety of sources including some

of my favorites, fish, eggs, milk, chicken, turkey, steak. I try to

eat at least 3-4 servings of fruit per day, usually apples, grapes

and bananas are on my list as well as orange and grapefruit juices.

I avoid high glycemic carbs except during and immediately after

workouts. I try to eat at least 2 servings of veggies per day. I

try to eat healthy fats from fish oils, nuts and olive oil sources.

I have a Tanita scale and monitor by bodyweight and bodyfat. I

adjust my daily calories based on whether my bodyfat is increasing or

decreasing. If I am trying to put muscle on, I don't mind a little

bit of an increase in BF, as long as it does not get excessive.

<<What I can say about your diet is that you've got quite a bit of

fruits there... rethink that decision. In fact, your whole pre & post

workout meal plans are a big disaster (sorry if that sounds a bit

harsh). All those high glycemic fruits 1 hour prior create an

unnecessary insulin spike.>>

***My pre-workout fruit is an apple which I thought was a low

glycemic index fruit. Am I incorrect in this regard? Also, I am

sure that I have read from several sources that pre-workout

carb/protein meals are as important (if not more so) than the post-

workout carb/protein meal.

<<During the workout Gatorade is fine, but its better for post-

workout.>>

***I thought I had read somewhere that there was some research

showing that there are benefits to consuming a high GI drinks during

exercise to replace depleted glycogen which helps prevent a drop-off

in performance towards the end of a workout. Again, I might be wrong

about this, but I recall having read this somewhere.

<<Post-workout you have chocolate milk -- Terrible choice. Avoid milk

& saturated fats after workout. Post workout meal should be high in

protein and high glycemic carbs (ie, whey protein +

glucose/dextrose). A nice protein powder mixed with gatorade would be

almost ideal.>>

***The chocolate milk I drink is the low fat variety. However it is

high in sugars and protein. I also eat the banana because it is on

the high GI side of the scale. So, from my looking at my meal, I am

eating a high GI carb + protein, low fat meal. Unless there is

something wrong with milk as the source of my post-workout protein

instead of whey, I am unsure what a meal replacement powder or

protein powder would give me that I am not already getting. I am not

trying to be difficult or argumentative -- I just genuinely don't

know what it it that gatorade + whey protein would give me that I am

not getting from lowfat chocolate milk + banana.

<<1 hour after that you should be having again some protein and some

complex carbs - milk might actually be a good idea as the 2nd post-

workout meal -- a good common choice would be for example tuna +

pasta or something. Fructose (the carbohydrates-sugars- found in

fruits) are stored by Insulin as palmitic acid (saturated fat

basically, 98% percent of which is palmitic acid) and this occurs

when glycogen stores are filled up.>>

***My second post-workout feeding is much like my pre-workout meal.

It is a carb + protein meal. The fruit used is, again, what I

thought were low-GI fruits, such as apples and grapes. Also, I

thought that the GI of pasta is significantly higher than that of

fruit.

<<Ok, thats enough ranting from me. I hope I've made some sense. good

luck, if you have further specific questions feel free to ask, I'm

sure many others will contribute some great posts shortly.>>

***Thank you for your input, although you have left me with a few

more questions regarding my understanding of the role of fruit in pre

and post-workout nutrition. Let me ask another question, if you were

to prescribe pre-workout, during workout and post-workout meals to

someone who didn't want to buy supplements (let's assume for the

moment that Gatorade is not a supplement), what would you suggest for

the strength/power athlete who also cares what he looks like to the

ladies ?

[sadly, far too many men have a misconception of what they think attracts

the ladies physically. Some years ago, a Western study revealed that the

majority

of women surveyed do not like excessively muscular men, but preferred men with a

leaner

more athletic build, with tight, muscular buttocks and well-shaped calves and

attractive eyes (this report may have appeared in 'Psychology Today' - others

may

remember more clearly). Relaxed, unposed, confident upright deportment was also

an

important part of the package. Some bodybuilding women objected to this

finding, so it is apparent that the extremely muscular competitive bodybuilding

physique appeals to a specific group of women. Mel Siff]

Sincerely,

A. Levy

West Hollywood, California

[Guest guest]

<<My goal is primarily strength and power. I am a non-competing

powerlifter who has also begun dabbling in olympic lifting. My goals

are to be as strong and powerful as possible while maintaining body

fat less than 10%. Hypertrophy is only a secondary or tertiary goal

of mine. Bodybuilding is not my focus, but that does not mean I am

not interested in maintaining a lean muscular-looking physique and,

frankly, if I can put on muscle at the same time I gain strength and

power, all the better. However, if push comes to shove (assuming it

were a trade off), I would rather have an extra 20 lbs on my max

squat than 5 lbs of extra muscle.>>

I don't know much about powerlifting, sorry. What I do know, is that

my strength in the 3 power lifts has most increased when it

coincided with the best possible nutrition that can be used to feed

the body.

<<I do not follow any particular popular diet although I have taken

bits and pieces from a lot of sources. I eat approximately 1 gram of

protein per pound of bodyweight. I eat 6 or more times per day and

consume protein at each meal from a variety of sources including

some of my favorites, fish, eggs, milk, chicken, turkey, steak. I

try to eat at least 3-4 servings of fruit per day, usually apples,

grapes and bananas are on my list as well as orange and grapefruit

juices. I avoid high glycemic carbs except during and immediately

after workouts. I try to eat at least 2 servings of veggies per day.

I try to eat healthy fats from fish oils, nuts and olive oil

sources. I have a Tanita scale and monitor by bodyweight and

bodyfat. I adjust my daily calories based on whether my bodyfat is

increasing or decreasing. If I am trying to put muscle on, I don't

mind a little bit of an increase in BF, as long as it does not get

excessive.>>

It seems you have your diet down fairly well. FYI, electrical

bioimpedance scales are very inaccurate measures of bodyfat. I dont

have any sources of info, but I did research this topic when I did

have such a scale... And the fluctuations due to water/food intake

and movement create a very high inaccuracy.

About fruits, I recommend you do some quick research on fructose,

how it replenishes your glycogen, and so on. It is a contradictory

simple sugar. We are thought to believe that its a good food for

athletes becauses its low glycemic, but in actuality, there are

manifolds problems with fructose and sugars that contain fructose.

Lets see .. You see your muscles cannot use fructose, at least

directly. When you eat fructose and it enters the blood stream the

liver is where it gets sucked up. Your liver has a love affair with

fructose and like the movie " Fatal Attraction " just has to have it

all to itself. Glucose is the preferred fuel for your working

muscles. Once fructose is in the liver is does not leave and is

eventually either converted to glycogen (long chains of glucose

units that acts as long term sugar storage that can be exported from

the liver to the brain and muscles on demand) or go towards

producing cholesterol and fat. Well at least one of the three

options, glycogen production, is beneficial. Think one out of three

isn't bad, think again. The body is more likely to convert the

fructose to fat and VLDL cholesterol in persons who have filled

their glycogen stores by eating regular meals that contain other

carbohydrates, because once your storage of liver glycogen is full

the fructose has no place else to go. So let us say you eat a normal

meal. The meal will likely have both complex and simple carbs and

may contain some fructose.

Those complex and simple carbs might just fill up your glycogen

stores (your muscles can and will take up glucose from the blood if

they need it or their glycogen storage is low) then you are left

with fructose having nowhere to go but towards fat and cholesterol.

Scared yet? Well it is not all bad, because the liver does like

fructose so much so that it is better at replenishing liver (not

muscle) glycogen than glucose, about 50% better (mostly because

fructose is pulled out of the blood into the liver so easily while

glucose can pass on by and be utilized by the muscles and other

tissues). Fructose would be ok for someone who is an ultraendurance

athlete with very low glycogen stores that wants to replenish their

supply of liver glycogen.

<<My pre-workout fruit is an apple which I thought was a low

glycemic index fruit. Am I incorrect in this regard?>>

In a technical sense yes. But there are other things to consider,

see above.

<<Also, I am sure that I have read from several sources that pre-

workout carb/protein meals are as important (if not more so) than

the post-workout carb/protein meal>>

You are very correct. Thats why its important we fix your little

fruit problem and make sure you are fueling your workouts correctly.

<<I thought I had read somewhere that there was some research

showing that there are benefits to consuming a high GI drinks during

exercise to replace depleted glycogen which helps prevent a drop-off

in performance towards the end of a workout. Again, I might be wrong

about this, but I recall having read this somewhere.>>

Yes you are correct again, I've read that research myself. high GI

drinks are good post-workout, but also during! Both is good...

<<The chocolate milk I drink is the low fat variety. However it is

high in sugars and protein. I also eat the banana because it is on

the high GI side of the scale. So, from my looking at my meal, I am

eating a high GI carb + protein, low fat meal. Unless there is

something wrong with milk as the source of my post-workout protein

instead of whey, I am unsure what a meal replacement powder or

protein powder would give me that I am not already getting. I am not

trying to be difficult or argumentative -- I just genuinely don't

know what it it that gatorade + whey protein would give me that I am

not getting from lowfat chocolate milk + banana>>

Milk sugars are called lactose. They are extremely low glycemic,

perhaps the lowest glycemic sugars, making them ideal for the

evening before bed. A banana is nothign more than fructose... (once

again, see above in this post about fructose). Gatorade is sort of

high glycemic, although you can of course make your own sugar mix

with dextrose (glucose) and maltodextrin (glucose polymers). If you

need a place to buy this, you can ask me via Email and I'll show you

some excellent places. These high glycemic index sugars will give

you an insulin spike. Milk does the opposite. A banana is almost

counter productive... Whey protein absorbs much faster. Milk is a

combination of whey and casein (whey 20% / casein 80% -- whey is the

fast, casein is the very slow... after workout you want the very

fast!). Plus you probably don't get enough from milk... 40g from

milk is like 4 cups... eek.

<<My second post-workout feeding is much like my pre-workout meal.

It is a carb + protein meal. The fruit used is, again, what I

thought were low-GI fruits, such as apples and grapes. Also, I

thought that the GI of pasta is significantly higher than that of

fruit>>

Yikes, fruits again... pasta is an excellent source of complex

carbs, I don't remember GI's off the top of my head, but 3-4 hours

post-workout you can eat moderate GI foods with no problem.

<<Thank you for your input, although you have left me with a few

more questions regarding my understanding of the role of fruit in

pre and post-workout nutrition. Let me ask another question, if you

were to prescribe pre-workout, during workout and post-workout meals

to someone who didn't want to buy supplements (let's assume for the

moment that Gatorade is not a supplement), what would you suggest

for the strength/power athlete who also cares what he looks like to

the ladies ?>>

Now we're talkin... First off, I hoped this 2nd post has helped a

bit more, if not, keep asking away... If you have any intentions of

loosing any fat whatsoever, throw away your fruits. We can start

there.

1-1.5 hours before workout -- 1.5 servings of gritz or oatmeal w/ 8

egg whites + 1 yolk + 1 cup of milk or few cups of water.

during -- gatorade

after -- potatoes (french fries even) and grilled chicken, or

gatorade and tuna, or gatorade and 8-10 egg whites.

Personally, I think that supplements do a good job of pre-during-

post workout nutrition... thats what I use them for mainly with good

success. You should really consider it, they make life a lot easier

and they are much better than food in the crucial post-workout time.

<<[sadly, far too many men have a misconception of what they think

attracts the ladies physically. Some years ago, a Western study

revealed that the majority of women surveyed do not like excessively

muscular men, but referred men with a leaner

more athletic build, with tight, muscular buttocks and well-shaped

calves and attractive eyes (this report may have appeared

in 'Psychology Today' - others mayremember more clearly). Relaxed

unposed, confident upright deportment was also an important part of

the package. Some bodybuilding women objected to this

finding, so it is apparent that the extremely muscular competitive

bodybuilding physique appeals to a specific group of women. Mel

Siff>>

I don't think anyone (including women) know what women want!!!

Eugene Sanik

Brooklyn, NY

[Guest guest]

Regarding the fructose occurring in fruits-fructose can be changed to

glucose in the liver or small intestines. Any extra calories in any form can

be stored as fat. 'Palmitic acid is a naturally occurring fat from animal

and vegetable sources, such as buter, celery seed, palm oil, coffee and tea,

anise seed, and other herb seeds.Palmitic acid is used occaisionally to

create butter or cheese flavorings to season food. It is basically nontoxic

and is on the GRAS list' Staying Healthy with nutrition, Elson Haas, MD, p

457.

I think you are getting your information from the Connelly's, book '6

weeks to something', in which he states that fructose is the bane of society

but he is referring to high fructose corn syrup or corn syrup, which is most

sweetened products (check out some labels).

To state that fruits make you fat because of fructose is a stretch and a lot

of skinny vegetarians would prove otherwise. Plus the fruits have other

components, such as flavenoids, fiber, water content, etc and things that

scientists havent discovered yet that are essential to health.

Charlie Newkerk, C.S.C.S.

Rockledge, Fl

Re: Pre/post-workout supplements versus food

> <<My goal is primarily strength and power. I am a non-competing

> powerlifter who has also begun dabbling in olympic lifting. My goals

> are to be as strong and powerful as possible while maintaining body

> fat less than 10%. Hypertrophy is only a secondary or tertiary goal

> of mine. Bodybuilding is not my focus, but that does not mean I am

> not interested in maintaining a lean muscular-looking physique and,

> frankly, if I can put on muscle at the same time I gain strength and

> power, all the better. However, if push comes to shove (assuming it

> were a trade off), I would rather have an extra 20 lbs on my max

> squat than 5 lbs of extra muscle.>>

>

> I don't know much about powerlifting, sorry. What I do know, is that

> my strength in the 3 power lifts has most increased when it

> coincided with the best possible nutrition that can be used to feed

> the body.

>

> <<I do not follow any particular popular diet although I have taken

> bits and pieces from a lot of sources. I eat approximately 1 gram of

> protein per pound of bodyweight. I eat 6 or more times per day and

> consume protein at each meal from a variety of sources including

> some of my favorites, fish, eggs, milk, chicken, turkey, steak. I

> try to eat at least 3-4 servings of fruit per day, usually apples,

> grapes and bananas are on my list as well as orange and grapefruit

> juices. I avoid high glycemic carbs except during and immediately

> after workouts. I try to eat at least 2 servings of veggies per day.

> I try to eat healthy fats from fish oils, nuts and olive oil

> sources. I have a Tanita scale and monitor by bodyweight and

> bodyfat. I adjust my daily calories based on whether my bodyfat is

> increasing or decreasing. If I am trying to put muscle on, I don't

> mind a little bit of an increase in BF, as long as it does not get

> excessive.>>

>

> It seems you have your diet down fairly well. FYI, electrical

> bioimpedance scales are very inaccurate measures of bodyfat. I dont

> have any sources of info, but I did research this topic when I did

> have such a scale... And the fluctuations due to water/food intake

> and movement create a very high inaccuracy.

>

> About fruits, I recommend you do some quick research on fructose,

> how it replenishes your glycogen, and so on. It is a contradictory

> simple sugar. We are thought to believe that its a good food for

> athletes becauses its low glycemic, but in actuality, there are

> manifolds problems with fructose and sugars that contain fructose.

>

> Lets see .. You see your muscles cannot use fructose, at least

> directly. When you eat fructose and it enters the blood stream the

> liver is where it gets sucked up. Your liver has a love affair with

> fructose and like the movie " Fatal Attraction " just has to have it

> all to itself. Glucose is the preferred fuel for your working

> muscles. Once fructose is in the liver is does not leave and is

> eventually either converted to glycogen (long chains of glucose

> units that acts as long term sugar storage that can be exported from

> the liver to the brain and muscles on demand) or go towards

> producing cholesterol and fat. Well at least one of the three

> options, glycogen production, is beneficial. Think one out of three

> isn't bad, think again. The body is more likely to convert the

> fructose to fat and VLDL cholesterol in persons who have filled

> their glycogen stores by eating regular meals that contain other

> carbohydrates, because once your storage of liver glycogen is full

> the fructose has no place else to go. So let us say you eat a normal

> meal. The meal will likely have both complex and simple carbs and

> may contain some fructose.

>

> Those complex and simple carbs might just fill up your glycogen

> stores (your muscles can and will take up glucose from the blood if

> they need it or their glycogen storage is low) then you are left

> with fructose having nowhere to go but towards fat and cholesterol.

> Scared yet? Well it is not all bad, because the liver does like

> fructose so much so that it is better at replenishing liver (not

> muscle) glycogen than glucose, about 50% better (mostly because

> fructose is pulled out of the blood into the liver so easily while

> glucose can pass on by and be utilized by the muscles and other

> tissues). Fructose would be ok for someone who is an ultraendurance

> athlete with very low glycogen stores that wants to replenish their

> supply of liver glycogen.

>

> <<My pre-workout fruit is an apple which I thought was a low

> glycemic index fruit. Am I incorrect in this regard?>>

> In a technical sense yes. But there are other things to consider,

> see above.

>

> <<Also, I am sure that I have read from several sources that pre-

> workout carb/protein meals are as important (if not more so) than

> the post-workout carb/protein meal>>

> You are very correct. Thats why its important we fix your little

> fruit problem and make sure you are fueling your workouts correctly.

>

>

> <<I thought I had read somewhere that there was some research

> showing that there are benefits to consuming a high GI drinks during

> exercise to replace depleted glycogen which helps prevent a drop-off

> in performance towards the end of a workout. Again, I might be wrong

> about this, but I recall having read this somewhere.>>

>

> Yes you are correct again, I've read that research myself. high GI

> drinks are good post-workout, but also during! Both is good...

>

>

> <<The chocolate milk I drink is the low fat variety. However it is

> high in sugars and protein. I also eat the banana because it is on

> the high GI side of the scale. So, from my looking at my meal, I am

> eating a high GI carb + protein, low fat meal. Unless there is

> something wrong with milk as the source of my post-workout protein

> instead of whey, I am unsure what a meal replacement powder or

> protein powder would give me that I am not already getting. I am not

> trying to be difficult or argumentative -- I just genuinely don't

> know what it it that gatorade + whey protein would give me that I am

> not getting from lowfat chocolate milk + banana>>

>

> Milk sugars are called lactose. They are extremely low glycemic,

> perhaps the lowest glycemic sugars, making them ideal for the

> evening before bed. A banana is nothign more than fructose... (once

> again, see above in this post about fructose). Gatorade is sort of

> high glycemic, although you can of course make your own sugar mix

> with dextrose (glucose) and maltodextrin (glucose polymers). If you

> need a place to buy this, you can ask me via Email and I'll show you

> some excellent places. These high glycemic index sugars will give

> you an insulin spike. Milk does the opposite. A banana is almost

> counter productive... Whey protein absorbs much faster. Milk is a

> combination of whey and casein (whey 20% / casein 80% -- whey is the

> fast, casein is the very slow... after workout you want the very

> fast!). Plus you probably don't get enough from milk... 40g from

> milk is like 4 cups... eek.

>

> <<My second post-workout feeding is much like my pre-workout meal.

> It is a carb + protein meal. The fruit used is, again, what I

> thought were low-GI fruits, such as apples and grapes. Also, I

> thought that the GI of pasta is significantly higher than that of

> fruit>>

>

> Yikes, fruits again... pasta is an excellent source of complex

> carbs, I don't remember GI's off the top of my head, but 3-4 hours

> post-workout you can eat moderate GI foods with no problem.

>

> <<Thank you for your input, although you have left me with a few

> more questions regarding my understanding of the role of fruit in

> pre and post-workout nutrition. Let me ask another question, if you

> were to prescribe pre-workout, during workout and post-workout meals

> to someone who didn't want to buy supplements (let's assume for the

> moment that Gatorade is not a supplement), what would you suggest

> for the strength/power athlete who also cares what he looks like to

> the ladies ?>>

>

> Now we're talkin... First off, I hoped this 2nd post has helped a

> bit more, if not, keep asking away... If you have any intentions of

> loosing any fat whatsoever, throw away your fruits. We can start

> there.

>

> 1-1.5 hours before workout -- 1.5 servings of gritz or oatmeal w/ 8

> egg whites + 1 yolk + 1 cup of milk or few cups of water.

> during -- gatorade

> after -- potatoes (french fries even) and grilled chicken, or

> gatorade and tuna, or gatorade and 8-10 egg whites.

>

> Personally, I think that supplements do a good job of pre-during-

> post workout nutrition... thats what I use them for mainly with good

> success. You should really consider it, they make life a lot easier

> and they are much better than food in the crucial post-workout time.

>

> <<[sadly, far too many men have a misconception of what they think

> attracts the ladies physically. Some years ago, a Western study

> revealed that the majority of women surveyed do not like excessively

> muscular men, but referred men with a leaner

> more athletic build, with tight, muscular buttocks and well-shaped

> calves and attractive eyes (this report may have appeared

> in 'Psychology Today' - others mayremember more clearly). Relaxed

> unposed, confident upright deportment was also an important part of

> the package. Some bodybuilding women objected to this

> finding, so it is apparent that the extremely muscular competitive

> bodybuilding physique appeals to a specific group of women. Mel

> Siff>>

>

> I don't think anyone (including women) know what women want!!!

>

> Eugene Sanik

> Brooklyn, NY

>

>

>

> Modify or cancel your subscription here:

>

> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

>

> Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you

> wish them to be published!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

High fructose corn syrup, corn syrup, corn syrup solids, corn

sweetener, sucrose (½ fructose), fructose itself, fruit sweetener,

etc. It's all fructose ... byproduct of corn production. (Of course,

fructose and high fructose corn syrup aren't the same thing. The

former is pure fructose. The latter is a mixture of fructose and

glucose. Nevertheless, the fructose is there.)

You're actually indirectly proving a point I made in an earlier post

on this issue. If you want to follow the guidelines of an article or

book that has " Staying healthy with nutrition " in it, you're on your

way to becoming a " very healthy fat person " (my exact quote I

believe). Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that to sound harsh, but

if the best possible physique is anywhere on a todo list, we need to

begin to filter and prioritize our nutrition. That includes ignoring

(not entirely, but for the most part) the vitamin, fiber, water, and

all other potentially " essential to health " components of fructose.

The indivudual at whom this post was originally directed has made

his pre-during-post workout meals almost entirely of fruits, and he

has based his decision to do so according to the glycemic index.

This raised a red flag, because fructose is a contradictory sugar

that needs to be looked at carefully, and he overlooked some of the

more important aspects. Skinny vegetarians can argue with me all

they want, as long as its over a nice dinner that includes some

grilled chicken These are the same rediculous vegetarians that

say we only need 20g of protein per day, because that is all that is

necessary for hair, skin, nail growth. The reason fructose isn't

making them fat is because they aren't eating enough (hence them

being skinny).

Fructose can slow down fat burning by upto 38%. The interesting

thing about this research experiment -- it was designed under 2

groups: low and normal calorie diets. Under low calorie conditions,

fat oxidation was the same with glucose and fructose (skinny

vegetarians, eat your heart out!). Under normal calorie conditions

(ie, every other normal person who is training intensely with

weights), fat oxidation rates were reduced by 38% with glucose.

Tittelbach, T.J., Mattes, R.D., & Gretebeck, R.J. (2000). Post-

exercise substrate utlisation after a high glucose vs. high fructose

meal during negative energy balance in the obese. Obesity Research,

8, 496-505

I don't know about the quality of this experiment, how it relates to

the non-obese, but I think its still common sense to ignore the

skinny vegetarians' opinions on nutrition depending on your goals.

Regards,

Eugene Sanik

Brooklyn, NY

> Regarding the fructose occurring in fruits-fructose can be changed

to

> glucose in the liver or small intestines. Any extra calories in

any form can

> be stored as fat. 'Palmitic acid is a naturally occurring fat from

animal

> and vegetable sources, such as buter, celery seed, palm oil,

coffee and tea,

> anise seed, and other herb seeds.Palmitic acid is used

occaisionally to

> create butter or cheese flavorings to season food. It is basically

nontoxic

> and is on the GRAS list' Staying Healthy with nutrition, Elson

Haas, MD, p

> 457.

>

> I think you are getting your information from the

Connelly's, book '6

> weeks to something', in which he states that fructose is the bane

of society

> but he is referring to high fructose corn syrup or corn syrup,

which is most

> sweetened products (check out some labels).

>

> To state that fruits make you fat because of fructose is a stretch

and a lot

> of skinny vegetarians would prove otherwise. Plus the fruits have

other

> components, such as flavenoids, fiber, water content, etc and

things that

> scientists havent discovered yet that are essential to health.

>

> Charlie Newkerk, C.S.C.S.

> Rockledge, Fl

> Re: Pre/post-workout supplements versus

food

>

>

> > <<My goal is primarily strength and power. I am a non-competing

> > powerlifter who has also begun dabbling in olympic lifting. My

goals

> > are to be as strong and powerful as possible while maintaining

body

> > fat less than 10%. Hypertrophy is only a secondary or tertiary

goal

> > of mine. Bodybuilding is not my focus, but that does not mean I

am

> > not interested in maintaining a lean muscular-looking physique

and,

> > frankly, if I can put on muscle at the same time I gain strength

and

> > power, all the better. However, if push comes to shove (assuming

it

> > were a trade off), I would rather have an extra 20 lbs on my max

> > squat than 5 lbs of extra muscle.>>

> >

> > I don't know much about powerlifting, sorry. What I do know, is

that

> > my strength in the 3 power lifts has most increased when it

> > coincided with the best possible nutrition that can be used to

feed

> > the body.

> >

> > <<I do not follow any particular popular diet although I have

taken

> > bits and pieces from a lot of sources. I eat approximately 1

gram of

> > protein per pound of bodyweight. I eat 6 or more times per day

and

> > consume protein at each meal from a variety of sources including

> > some of my favorites, fish, eggs, milk, chicken, turkey, steak. I

> > try to eat at least 3-4 servings of fruit per day, usually

apples,

> > grapes and bananas are on my list as well as orange and

grapefruit

> > juices. I avoid high glycemic carbs except during and immediately

> > after workouts. I try to eat at least 2 servings of veggies per

day.

> > I try to eat healthy fats from fish oils, nuts and olive oil

> > sources. I have a Tanita scale and monitor by bodyweight and

> > bodyfat. I adjust my daily calories based on whether my bodyfat

is

> > increasing or decreasing. If I am trying to put muscle on, I

don't

> > mind a little bit of an increase in BF, as long as it does not

get

> > excessive.>>

> >

> > It seems you have your diet down fairly well. FYI, electrical

> > bioimpedance scales are very inaccurate measures of bodyfat. I

dont

> > have any sources of info, but I did research this topic when I

did

> > have such a scale... And the fluctuations due to water/food

intake

> > and movement create a very high inaccuracy.

> >

> > About fruits, I recommend you do some quick research on fructose,

> > how it replenishes your glycogen, and so on. It is a

contradictory

> > simple sugar. We are thought to believe that its a good food for

> > athletes becauses its low glycemic, but in actuality, there are

> > manifolds problems with fructose and sugars that contain

fructose.

> >

> > Lets see .. You see your muscles cannot use fructose, at least

> > directly. When you eat fructose and it enters the blood stream

the

> > liver is where it gets sucked up. Your liver has a love affair

with

> > fructose and like the movie " Fatal Attraction " just has to have

it

> > all to itself. Glucose is the preferred fuel for your working

> > muscles. Once fructose is in the liver is does not leave and is

> > eventually either converted to glycogen (long chains of glucose

> > units that acts as long term sugar storage that can be exported

from

> > the liver to the brain and muscles on demand) or go towards

> > producing cholesterol and fat. Well at least one of the three

> > options, glycogen production, is beneficial. Think one out of

three

> > isn't bad, think again. The body is more likely to convert the

> > fructose to fat and VLDL cholesterol in persons who have filled

> > their glycogen stores by eating regular meals that contain other

> > carbohydrates, because once your storage of liver glycogen is

full

> > the fructose has no place else to go. So let us say you eat a

normal

> > meal. The meal will likely have both complex and simple carbs and

> > may contain some fructose.

> >

> > Those complex and simple carbs might just fill up your glycogen

> > stores (your muscles can and will take up glucose from the blood

if

> > they need it or their glycogen storage is low) then you are left

> > with fructose having nowhere to go but towards fat and

cholesterol.

> > Scared yet? Well it is not all bad, because the liver does like

> > fructose so much so that it is better at replenishing liver (not

> > muscle) glycogen than glucose, about 50% better (mostly because

> > fructose is pulled out of the blood into the liver so easily

while

> > glucose can pass on by and be utilized by the muscles and other

> > tissues). Fructose would be ok for someone who is an

ultraendurance

> > athlete with very low glycogen stores that wants to replenish

their

> > supply of liver glycogen.

> >

> > <<My pre-workout fruit is an apple which I thought was a low

> > glycemic index fruit. Am I incorrect in this regard?>>

> > In a technical sense yes. But there are other things to consider,

> > see above.

> >

> > <<Also, I am sure that I have read from several sources that pre-

> > workout carb/protein meals are as important (if not more so) than

> > the post-workout carb/protein meal>>

> > You are very correct. Thats why its important we fix your little

> > fruit problem and make sure you are fueling your workouts

correctly.

> >

> >

> > <<I thought I had read somewhere that there was some research

> > showing that there are benefits to consuming a high GI drinks

during

> > exercise to replace depleted glycogen which helps prevent a drop-

off

> > in performance towards the end of a workout. Again, I might be

wrong

> > about this, but I recall having read this somewhere.>>

> >

> > Yes you are correct again, I've read that research myself. high

GI

> > drinks are good post-workout, but also during! Both is good...

> >

> >

> > <<The chocolate milk I drink is the low fat variety. However it

is

> > high in sugars and protein. I also eat the banana because it is

on

> > the high GI side of the scale. So, from my looking at my meal, I

am

> > eating a high GI carb + protein, low fat meal. Unless there is

> > something wrong with milk as the source of my post-workout

protein

> > instead of whey, I am unsure what a meal replacement powder or

> > protein powder would give me that I am not already getting. I am

not

> > trying to be difficult or argumentative -- I just genuinely don't

> > know what it it that gatorade + whey protein would give me that

I am

> > not getting from lowfat chocolate milk + banana>>

> >

> > Milk sugars are called lactose. They are extremely low glycemic,

> > perhaps the lowest glycemic sugars, making them ideal for the

> > evening before bed. A banana is nothign more than fructose...

(once

> > again, see above in this post about fructose). Gatorade is sort

of

> > high glycemic, although you can of course make your own sugar mix

> > with dextrose (glucose) and maltodextrin (glucose polymers). If

you

> > need a place to buy this, you can ask me via Email and I'll show

you

> > some excellent places. These high glycemic index sugars will give

> > you an insulin spike. Milk does the opposite. A banana is almost

> > counter productive... Whey protein absorbs much faster. Milk is a

> > combination of whey and casein (whey 20% / casein 80% -- whey is

the

> > fast, casein is the very slow... after workout you want the very

> > fast!). Plus you probably don't get enough from milk... 40g from

> > milk is like 4 cups... eek.

> >

> > <<My second post-workout feeding is much like my pre-workout

meal.

> > It is a carb + protein meal. The fruit used is, again, what I

> > thought were low-GI fruits, such as apples and grapes. Also, I

> > thought that the GI of pasta is significantly higher than that of

> > fruit>>

> >

> > Yikes, fruits again... pasta is an excellent source of complex

> > carbs, I don't remember GI's off the top of my head, but 3-4

hours

> > post-workout you can eat moderate GI foods with no problem.

> >

> > <<Thank you for your input, although you have left me with a few

> > more questions regarding my understanding of the role of fruit in

> > pre and post-workout nutrition. Let me ask another question, if

you

> > were to prescribe pre-workout, during workout and post-workout

meals

> > to someone who didn't want to buy supplements (let's assume for

the

> > moment that Gatorade is not a supplement), what would you suggest

> > for the strength/power athlete who also cares what he looks like

to

> > the ladies ?>>

> >

> > Now we're talkin... First off, I hoped this 2nd post has helped a

> > bit more, if not, keep asking away... If you have any intentions

of

> > loosing any fat whatsoever, throw away your fruits. We can start

> > there.

> >

> > 1-1.5 hours before workout -- 1.5 servings of gritz or oatmeal

w/ 8

> > egg whites + 1 yolk + 1 cup of milk or few cups of water.

> > during -- gatorade

> > after -- potatoes (french fries even) and grilled chicken, or

> > gatorade and tuna, or gatorade and 8-10 egg whites.

> >

> > Personally, I think that supplements do a good job of pre-during-

> > post workout nutrition... thats what I use them for mainly with

good

> > success. You should really consider it, they make life a lot

easier

> > and they are much better than food in the crucial post-workout

time.

> >

> > <<[sadly, far too many men have a misconception of what they

think

> > attracts the ladies physically. Some years ago, a Western study

> > revealed that the majority of women surveyed do not like

excessively

> > muscular men, but referred men with a leaner

> > more athletic build, with tight, muscular buttocks and well-

shaped

> > calves and attractive eyes (this report may have appeared

> > in 'Psychology Today' - others mayremember more clearly). Relaxed

> > unposed, confident upright deportment was also an important part

of

> > the package. Some bodybuilding women objected to this

> > finding, so it is apparent that the extremely muscular

competitive

> > bodybuilding physique appeals to a specific group of women. Mel

> > Siff>>

> >

> > I don't think anyone (including women) know what women want!!!

> >

> > Eugene Sanik

> > Brooklyn, NY

> >

> >

> >

> > Modify or cancel your subscription here:

> >

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups

> >

> > Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of

residence if

> you

> > wish them to be published!

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I have heard similar yarns about the evils of fructose before, and I

too would be interested in the source of this information or any

other available references for these ideas.

" A banana is nothign [sic] more than fructose... "

I don't have specific info on the sugar breakdown in a typical

banana, but this can't be true. On the glucose-based glycemic index

scale, a banana rates at 54 and pure fructose at 22. If a banana

contains both fructose and glucose, then that should place it

somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 fructose.

Wilbanks

ville, FL

-------

Eugene Sanik <askeugene@h...> wrote:

> <<My goal is primarily strength and power. I am a non-competing

> powerlifter who has also begun dabbling in olympic lifting. My goals

> are to be as strong and powerful as possible while maintaining body

> fat less than 10%. Hypertrophy is only a secondary or tertiary goal

> of mine. Bodybuilding is not my focus, but that does not mean I am

> not interested in maintaining a lean muscular-looking physique and,

> frankly, if I can put on muscle at the same time I gain strength and

> power, all the better. However, if push comes to shove (assuming it

> were a trade off), I would rather have an extra 20 lbs on my max

> squat than 5 lbs of extra muscle.>>

>

> I don't know much about powerlifting, sorry. What I do know, is

that

> my strength in the 3 power lifts has most increased when it

> coincided with the best possible nutrition that can be used to feed

> the body.

>

> <<I do not follow any particular popular diet although I have taken

> bits and pieces from a lot of sources. I eat approximately 1 gram

of

> protein per pound of bodyweight. I eat 6 or more times per day and

> consume protein at each meal from a variety of sources including

> some of my favorites, fish, eggs, milk, chicken, turkey, steak. I

> try to eat at least 3-4 servings of fruit per day, usually apples,

> grapes and bananas are on my list as well as orange and grapefruit

> juices. I avoid high glycemic carbs except during and immediately

> after workouts. I try to eat at least 2 servings of veggies per

day.

> I try to eat healthy fats from fish oils, nuts and olive oil

> sources. I have a Tanita scale and monitor by bodyweight and

> bodyfat. I adjust my daily calories based on whether my bodyfat is

> increasing or decreasing. If I am trying to put muscle on, I don't

> mind a little bit of an increase in BF, as long as it does not get

> excessive.>>

>

> It seems you have your diet down fairly well. FYI, electrical

> bioimpedance scales are very inaccurate measures of bodyfat. I dont

> have any sources of info, but I did research this topic when I did

> have such a scale... And the fluctuations due to water/food intake

> and movement create a very high inaccuracy.

>

> About fruits, I recommend you do some quick research on fructose,

> how it replenishes your glycogen, and so on. It is a contradictory

> simple sugar. We are thought to believe that its a good food for

> athletes becauses its low glycemic, but in actuality, there are

> manifolds problems with fructose and sugars that contain fructose.

>

> Lets see .. You see your muscles cannot use fructose, at least

> directly. When you eat fructose and it enters the blood stream the

> liver is where it gets sucked up. Your liver has a love affair with

> fructose and like the movie " Fatal Attraction " just has to have it

> all to itself. Glucose is the preferred fuel for your working

> muscles. Once fructose is in the liver is does not leave and is

> eventually either converted to glycogen (long chains of glucose

> units that acts as long term sugar storage that can be exported

from

> the liver to the brain and muscles on demand) or go towards

> producing cholesterol and fat. Well at least one of the three

> options, glycogen production, is beneficial. Think one out of three

> isn't bad, think again. The body is more likely to convert the

> fructose to fat and VLDL cholesterol in persons who have filled

> their glycogen stores by eating regular meals that contain other

> carbohydrates, because once your storage of liver glycogen is full

> the fructose has no place else to go. So let us say you eat a

normal

> meal. The meal will likely have both complex and simple carbs and

> may contain some fructose.

>

> Those complex and simple carbs might just fill up your glycogen

> stores (your muscles can and will take up glucose from the blood if

> they need it or their glycogen storage is low) then you are left

> with fructose having nowhere to go but towards fat and cholesterol.

> Scared yet? Well it is not all bad, because the liver does like

> fructose so much so that it is better at replenishing liver (not

> muscle) glycogen than glucose, about 50% better (mostly because

> fructose is pulled out of the blood into the liver so easily while

> glucose can pass on by and be utilized by the muscles and other

> tissues). Fructose would be ok for someone who is an ultraendurance

> athlete with very low glycogen stores that wants to replenish their

> supply of liver glycogen.

>

> <<My pre-workout fruit is an apple which I thought was a low

> glycemic index fruit. Am I incorrect in this regard?>>

> In a technical sense yes. But there are other things to consider,

> see above.

>

> <<Also, I am sure that I have read from several sources that pre-

> workout carb/protein meals are as important (if not more so) than

> the post-workout carb/protein meal>>

> You are very correct. Thats why its important we fix your little

> fruit problem and make sure you are fueling your workouts correctly.

>

>

> <<I thought I had read somewhere that there was some research

> showing that there are benefits to consuming a high GI drinks

during

> exercise to replace depleted glycogen which helps prevent a drop-

off

> in performance towards the end of a workout. Again, I might be

wrong

> about this, but I recall having read this somewhere.>>

>

> Yes you are correct again, I've read that research myself. high GI

> drinks are good post-workout, but also during! Both is good...

>

>

> <<The chocolate milk I drink is the low fat variety. However it is

> high in sugars and protein. I also eat the banana because it is on

> the high GI side of the scale. So, from my looking at my meal, I am

> eating a high GI carb + protein, low fat meal. Unless there is

> something wrong with milk as the source of my post-workout protein

> instead of whey, I am unsure what a meal replacement powder or

> protein powder would give me that I am not already getting. I am

not

> trying to be difficult or argumentative -- I just genuinely don't

> know what it it that gatorade + whey protein would give me that I

am

> not getting from lowfat chocolate milk + banana>>

>

> Milk sugars are called lactose. They are extremely low glycemic,

> perhaps the lowest glycemic sugars, making them ideal for the

> evening before bed. A banana is nothign more than fructose... (once

> again, see above in this post about fructose). Gatorade is sort of

> high glycemic, although you can of course make your own sugar mix

> with dextrose (glucose) and maltodextrin (glucose polymers). If you

> need a place to buy this, you can ask me via Email and I'll show

you

> some excellent places. These high glycemic index sugars will give

> you an insulin spike. Milk does the opposite. A banana is almost

> counter productive... Whey protein absorbs much faster. Milk is a

> combination of whey and casein (whey 20% / casein 80% -- whey is

the

> fast, casein is the very slow... after workout you want the very

> fast!). Plus you probably don't get enough from milk... 40g from

> milk is like 4 cups... eek.

>

> <<My second post-workout feeding is much like my pre-workout meal.

> It is a carb + protein meal. The fruit used is, again, what I

> thought were low-GI fruits, such as apples and grapes. Also, I

> thought that the GI of pasta is significantly higher than that of

> fruit>>

>

> Yikes, fruits again... pasta is an excellent source of complex

> carbs, I don't remember GI's off the top of my head, but 3-4 hours

> post-workout you can eat moderate GI foods with no problem.

>

> <<Thank you for your input, although you have left me with a few

> more questions regarding my understanding of the role of fruit in

> pre and post-workout nutrition. Let me ask another question, if

you

> were to prescribe pre-workout, during workout and post-workout

meals

> to someone who didn't want to buy supplements (let's assume for the

> moment that Gatorade is not a supplement), what would you suggest

> for the strength/power athlete who also cares what he looks like to

> the ladies ?>>

>

> Now we're talkin... First off, I hoped this 2nd post has helped a

> bit more, if not, keep asking away... If you have any intentions of

> loosing any fat whatsoever, throw away your fruits. We can start

> there.

>

> 1-1.5 hours before workout -- 1.5 servings of gritz or oatmeal w/ 8

> egg whites + 1 yolk + 1 cup of milk or few cups of water.

> during -- gatorade

> after -- potatoes (french fries even) and grilled chicken, or

> gatorade and tuna, or gatorade and 8-10 egg whites.

>

> Personally, I think that supplements do a good job of pre-during-

> post workout nutrition... thats what I use them for mainly with

good

> success. You should really consider it, they make life a lot easier

> and they are much better than food in the crucial post-workout time......

>

> Eugene Sanik

* Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if

you wish them to be published!

[Guest guest]

I try to eat a couple of servings of fruit per day, even though I

have heard similar proscriptions. I usually eat blueberries and

ground flax on my bran cereal in the morning. I put a banana or a

handful of berries plus skim milk in my post-workout drink along with

whey and pure glucose.

I tried a post-workout drink without the addition of real food

once... and only once. Not only did I practically have to hold my

nose to choke it down, but it gave me serious digestive cramps

afterward. No thanks. I'd need to see some pretty strong evidence

that less than 100 calories worth of fructose in my PW drink was

likely to sabotage my training efforts for me to give up the pleasure

and health benefits of my shake as I currently make it. That sounds

a little far-fetched.

Moreover, I have lost about 35 pounds of fat and gained substantial

strength and some muscle in the last year or so, eating a moderate

amount of fruits all the while. Another shocker: I also eat a fair

amount of bread. Then again, I'm not a bodybuilder. My goals

revolve more around long term health, injury prevention, general well-

being, and athletic capacity for martial arts practice.

Wilbanks

ville, FL

> > Regarding the fructose occurring in fruits-fructose can be

changed

> to

> > glucose in the liver or small intestines. Any extra calories in

> any form can

> > be stored as fat. 'Palmitic acid is a naturally occurring fat

from

> animal

> > and vegetable sources, such as buter, celery seed, palm oil,

> coffee and tea,

> > anise seed, and other herb seeds.Palmitic acid is used

> occaisionally to

> > create butter or cheese flavorings to season food. It is

basically

> nontoxic

> > and is on the GRAS list' Staying Healthy with nutrition, Elson

> Haas, MD, p

> > 457.

> >

> > I think you are getting your information from the

> Connelly's, book '6

> > weeks to something', in which he states that fructose is the bane

> of society

> > but he is referring to high fructose corn syrup or corn syrup,

> which is most

> > sweetened products (check out some labels).

> >

> > To state that fruits make you fat because of fructose is a

stretch

> and a lot

> > of skinny vegetarians would prove otherwise. Plus the fruits

have

> other

> > components, such as flavenoids, fiber, water content, etc and

> things that

> > scientists havent discovered yet that are essential to health.

> >

> > Charlie Newkerk, C.S.C.S.

> > Rockledge, Fl

> > Re: Pre/post-workout supplements versus

> food

> >

> >

> > > <<My goal is primarily strength and power. I am a non-competing

> > > powerlifter who has also begun dabbling in olympic lifting. My

> goals

> > > are to be as strong and powerful as possible while maintaining

> body

> > > fat less than 10%. Hypertrophy is only a secondary or tertiary

> goal

> > > of mine. Bodybuilding is not my focus, but that does not mean I

> am

> > > not interested in maintaining a lean muscular-looking physique

> and,

> > > frankly, if I can put on muscle at the same time I gain

strength

> and

> > > power, all the better. However, if push comes to shove

(assuming

> it

> > > were a trade off), I would rather have an extra 20 lbs on my max

> > > squat than 5 lbs of extra muscle.>>

> > >

> > > I don't know much about powerlifting, sorry. What I do know, is

> that

> > > my strength in the 3 power lifts has most increased when it

> > > coincided with the best possible nutrition that can be used to

> feed

> > > the body.

> > >

> > > <<I do not follow any particular popular diet although I have

> taken

> > > bits and pieces from a lot of sources. I eat approximately 1

> gram of

> > > protein per pound of bodyweight. I eat 6 or more times per day

> and

> > > consume protein at each meal from a variety of sources including

> > > some of my favorites, fish, eggs, milk, chicken, turkey, steak.

I

> > > try to eat at least 3-4 servings of fruit per day, usually

> apples,

> > > grapes and bananas are on my list as well as orange and

> grapefruit

> > > juices. I avoid high glycemic carbs except during and

immediately

> > > after workouts. I try to eat at least 2 servings of veggies per

> day.

> > > I try to eat healthy fats from fish oils, nuts and olive oil

> > > sources. I have a Tanita scale and monitor by bodyweight and

> > > bodyfat. I adjust my daily calories based on whether my bodyfat

> is

> > > increasing or decreasing. If I am trying to put muscle on, I

> don't

> > > mind a little bit of an increase in BF, as long as it does not

> get

> > > excessive.>>

> > >

> > > It seems you have your diet down fairly well. FYI, electrical

> > > bioimpedance scales are very inaccurate measures of bodyfat. I

> dont

> > > have any sources of info, but I did research this topic when I

> did

> > > have such a scale... And the fluctuations due to water/food

> intake

> > > and movement create a very high inaccuracy.

> > >

> > > About fruits, I recommend you do some quick research on

fructose,

> > > how it replenishes your glycogen, and so on. It is a

> contradictory

> > > simple sugar. We are thought to believe that its a good food for

> > > athletes becauses its low glycemic, but in actuality, there are

> > > manifolds problems with fructose and sugars that contain

> fructose.

> > >

> > > Lets see .. You see your muscles cannot use fructose, at least

> > > directly. When you eat fructose and it enters the blood stream

> the

> > > liver is where it gets sucked up. Your liver has a love affair

> with

> > > fructose and like the movie " Fatal Attraction " just has to have

> it

> > > all to itself. Glucose is the preferred fuel for your working

> > > muscles. Once fructose is in the liver is does not leave and is

> > > eventually either converted to glycogen (long chains of glucose

> > > units that acts as long term sugar storage that can be exported

> from

> > > the liver to the brain and muscles on demand) or go towards

> > > producing cholesterol and fat. Well at least one of the three

> > > options, glycogen production, is beneficial. Think one out of

> three

> > > isn't bad, think again. The body is more likely to convert the

> > > fructose to fat and VLDL cholesterol in persons who have filled

> > > their glycogen stores by eating regular meals that contain other

> > > carbohydrates, because once your storage of liver glycogen is

> full

> > > the fructose has no place else to go. So let us say you eat a

> normal

> > > meal. The meal will likely have both complex and simple carbs

and

> > > may contain some fructose.

> > >

> > > Those complex and simple carbs might just fill up your glycogen

> > > stores (your muscles can and will take up glucose from the

blood

> if

> > > they need it or their glycogen storage is low) then you are left

> > > with fructose having nowhere to go but towards fat and

> cholesterol.

> > > Scared yet? Well it is not all bad, because the liver does like

> > > fructose so much so that it is better at replenishing liver (not

> > > muscle) glycogen than glucose, about 50% better (mostly because

> > > fructose is pulled out of the blood into the liver so easily

> while

> > > glucose can pass on by and be utilized by the muscles and other

> > > tissues). Fructose would be ok for someone who is an

> ultraendurance

> > > athlete with very low glycogen stores that wants to replenish

> their

> > > supply of liver glycogen.

> > >

> > > <<My pre-workout fruit is an apple which I thought was a low

> > > glycemic index fruit. Am I incorrect in this regard?>>

> > > In a technical sense yes. But there are other things to

consider,

> > > see above.

> > >

> > > <<Also, I am sure that I have read from several sources that

pre-

> > > workout carb/protein meals are as important (if not more so)

than

> > > the post-workout carb/protein meal>>

> > > You are very correct. Thats why its important we fix your little

> > > fruit problem and make sure you are fueling your workouts

> correctly.

> > >

> > >

> > > <<I thought I had read somewhere that there was some research

> > > showing that there are benefits to consuming a high GI drinks

> during

> > > exercise to replace depleted glycogen which helps prevent a

drop-

> off

> > > in performance towards the end of a workout. Again, I might be

> wrong

> > > about this, but I recall having read this somewhere.>>

> > >

> > > Yes you are correct again, I've read that research myself. high

> GI

> > > drinks are good post-workout, but also during! Both is good...

> > >

> > >

> > > <<The chocolate milk I drink is the low fat variety. However it

> is

> > > high in sugars and protein. I also eat the banana because it is

> on

> > > the high GI side of the scale. So, from my looking at my meal,

I

> am

> > > eating a high GI carb + protein, low fat meal. Unless there is

> > > something wrong with milk as the source of my post-workout

> protein

> > > instead of whey, I am unsure what a meal replacement powder or

> > > protein powder would give me that I am not already getting. I

am

> not

> > > trying to be difficult or argumentative -- I just genuinely

don't

> > > know what it it that gatorade + whey protein would give me that

> I am

> > > not getting from lowfat chocolate milk + banana>>

> > >

> > > Milk sugars are called lactose. They are extremely low glycemic,

> > > perhaps the lowest glycemic sugars, making them ideal for the

> > > evening before bed. A banana is nothign more than fructose...

> (once

> > > again, see above in this post about fructose). Gatorade is sort

> of

> > > high glycemic, although you can of course make your own sugar

mix

> > > with dextrose (glucose) and maltodextrin (glucose polymers). If

> you

> > > need a place to buy this, you can ask me via Email and I'll

show

> you

> > > some excellent places. These high glycemic index sugars will

give

> > > you an insulin spike. Milk does the opposite. A banana is almost

> > > counter productive... Whey protein absorbs much faster. Milk is

a

> > > combination of whey and casein (whey 20% / casein 80% -- whey

is

> the

> > > fast, casein is the very slow... after workout you want the very

> > > fast!). Plus you probably don't get enough from milk... 40g from

> > > milk is like 4 cups... eek.

> > >

> > > <<My second post-workout feeding is much like my pre-workout

> meal.

> > > It is a carb + protein meal. The fruit used is, again, what I

> > > thought were low-GI fruits, such as apples and grapes. Also, I

> > > thought that the GI of pasta is significantly higher than that

of

> > > fruit>>

> > >

> > > Yikes, fruits again... pasta is an excellent source of complex

> > > carbs, I don't remember GI's off the top of my head, but 3-4

> hours

> > > post-workout you can eat moderate GI foods with no problem.

> > >

> > > <<Thank you for your input, although you have left me with a few

> > > more questions regarding my understanding of the role of fruit

in

> > > pre and post-workout nutrition. Let me ask another question,

if

> you

> > > were to prescribe pre-workout, during workout and post-workout

> meals

> > > to someone who didn't want to buy supplements (let's assume for

> the

> > > moment that Gatorade is not a supplement), what would you

suggest

> > > for the strength/power athlete who also cares what he looks

like

> to

> > > the ladies ?>>

> > >

> > > Now we're talkin... First off, I hoped this 2nd post has helped

a

> > > bit more, if not, keep asking away... If you have any

intentions

> of

> > > loosing any fat whatsoever, throw away your fruits. We can start

> > > there.

> > >

> > > 1-1.5 hours before workout -- 1.5 servings of gritz or oatmeal

> w/ 8

> > > egg whites + 1 yolk + 1 cup of milk or few cups of water.

> > > during -- gatorade

> > > after -- potatoes (french fries even) and grilled chicken, or

> > > gatorade and tuna, or gatorade and 8-10 egg whites.

> > >

> > > Personally, I think that supplements do a good job of pre-

during-

> > > post workout nutrition... thats what I use them for mainly with

> good

> > > success. You should really consider it, they make life a lot

> easier

> > > and they are much better than food in the crucial post-workout

> time.

> > >

> > > <<[sadly, far too many men have a misconception of what they

> think

> > > attracts the ladies physically. Some years ago, a Western study

> > > revealed that the majority of women surveyed do not like

> excessively

> > > muscular men, but referred men with a leaner

> > > more athletic build, with tight, muscular buttocks and well-

> shaped

> > > calves and attractive eyes (this report may have appeared

> > > in 'Psychology Today' - others mayremember more clearly).

Relaxed

> > > unposed, confident upright deportment was also an important

part

> of

> > > the package. Some bodybuilding women objected to this

> > > finding, so it is apparent that the extremely muscular

> competitive

> > > bodybuilding physique appeals to a specific group of women. Mel

> > > Siff>>

> > >

> > > I don't think anyone (including women) know what women

want!!!

> > >

> > > Eugene Sanik

> > > Brooklyn, NY

> > >

> > >

> > >

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> > >

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> > you

> > > wish them to be published!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >