Re: Ethical issues and pregnancy

April 27, 2009

Just to remind you, I have a 3 year old on the spectrum. I am fairly new to the

whole world of austism, but I have been reading a lot. I read all the posts

concerning CJ's ethical issues, and I have to say, when I first joined the list

and I read about ASD women having babies, it concerned me as well, but then I

realized that I don't know anything about these people and their lives at all,

and Aggy is right, she educated her daughter and her boyfriend about the

consequences, and that is something I feel like many parents of non-ASD children

fail to do these days. I know my parents just left a book on my bed one day

when I was about 12 or 13. That was it, no discussion whatsoever. I applaud

the mothers for taking the initiative to helping their children have the best

understanding about life and the cycle of life. I can only hope when the time

comes I have the strength and determination to be there for my daughter.

Essentially, I was worried that perhaps these women were taken advantage of, and

I sincerely hope that was not the case, but then again, a woman can be taken

advantage of with or without ASD.

I believe that the women on this list, who contribute to this forum, really do

everything they can and get as much information as possible to help out their

daughters, and they are bravely sharing personal triumphs and tests throughout

their lives with strangers. Everyone on this list has something in common

though, we all want what is best for our daughters, and those of you with ASD,

you do an excellent job of helping the rest of us understand what our daughters

are going through.

jamie

>

> Katy is not low-functioning. She is human and has a right to the pursuit of

happiness. I will support her in whatever decisions she makes in life. I know

plenty of non-disabled mums who are far worse mums than our daughter could ever

be. ~~~Aggy

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: Autism_in_Girls_and_Women

> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 11:00:11 PM

> Subject: Ethical issues and pregnancy

>

> I'm experiencing some disturbing ethical issues regarding those mothers

> who allow their (low-functioning) autistic daughters to become pregnant

> and birth a child.

>

> As I'm reading your posts, these autistic daughters seem barely capable

> of feeding themselves and maintaining a relationship, let alone capable

> of independent living. By their own mothers' admission, they are young

> children -- except in their ability to become pregnant.

>

> These severely autistic daughters would not seem to have the capacity to

> consent to sexual activity with anyone. They do not understand the

> ramifications of such a decision, nor do they have the emotional

> maturity to deal with the consequences of their actions.

>

> As I'm reading your posts, these daughters do not understand the concept

> of prenatal and ob/gyn care, and may find both these and the birth

> process to be traumatic beyond measure. To add insult to injury, these

> severely autistic women are incapable of caring for a newborn and

> providing for even its most basic needs..

>

> Now, I do understand that many people have moral issues about

> terminating a pregnancy, so I won't go there. But what about recognizing

> the realities here, and at a minimum expect that caregivers maintain

> their autistic female dependents on some method of birth control? And

> perhaps monitor their autistic daughter's social life so as to prevent

> them from being taken advantage of sexually or making decisions that

> they are not equipped to make? If you do not protect them, who will?

>

> I honestly do not believe that everyone is entitled to have a child (or

> grandchild) simply because the technology exists for them to do so. What

> about the welfare of the child? What about the burden on caregivers to

> whom the responsibility of raising that child may fall? What about the

> additional costs to the taxpayers in terms of the resources that mother

> and child will require?

>

> To be clear, I'm not referring to those with Asperger's Syndrome, but

> those women who suffer from a more classic form of autism, one which

> essentially keeps them children forever.

>

> In case you think that I'm trying to limit the rights of autistics, I

> feel very much the same about those neurotypical women who insist on

> becoming pregnant at an age where their eggs are barely viable, thereby

> placing their unborn children at risk for severe birth defects. Or, at

> the very least, subjecting that child to graduating from high school all

> alone, because they are now far too elderly to make the trip. To me,

> that is the epitome of selfishness.

>

> Then there is the spina bifida issue. Ladies, if you are of childbearing

> age and have the capacity to become pregnant, please take a multivitamin

> containing folic acid so as not to place your unborn child (unplanned or

> not) at risk for spina bifida. No excuses please -- in the vast majority

> of cases, neural tube defects are totally preventable.

>

> Off my soapbox for now. I am just so upset that a mother would allow her

> dependent autistic daughter to become pregnant, when that daughter may

> be barely able to distinguish between a newborn human child and a " Betsy

> Wetsy " doll.

>

> Best,

> ~CJ

>

April 27, 2009

Aggy, I hope you read my post correctly. I stand behind both you and Katy.

If I was not clear, it was the discrimination and judgement in CJ.'s post

which makes me indignant.

Congratulations to you and Katy. I honor you both and celebrate the

precious gift of the little one. Jay

TY, Jay. I stopped concerning myself with anyone else's judgment years ago.

Katy was a gift to us. God trusts me with her care and I will answer to Him.

I was told by the psychologist that Katy was PDD. I was told that in her mid

twenties she would begin to function fairly normally. She has several

girlfriends who are not autistic. Two are married and have become mothers..

One is unmarried and recently gave birth to triplets. Katy wanted what every

girl her age wants. She wanted a romantic relationship and yes, she wanted

to be a mother. She began dating her B/F 2 years ago. After a year, she

asked me about sex. I educated her. I had a frank discussion with her and

her boyfriend which included a package of condoms and directions for

consistent use. I also got her a prescription for birth control. She was to

begin taking it the day she got her next period. That day did not come. I

later learned that the two of them had decided to become pregnant shortly

after I educated them on how pregnancy occurs. Stupid me. My H and I have

always taken the stance that Katy can do anything she reaches to do. We have

never told her she is unable. Sure, we could be wrong but we are not God. We

do not have the right to tell her she cannot be a mother. She is capable of

many things. Indeed, she has often surpassed our expectations. Honestly, I

think for anyone to say she should not be permitted to be a mother is

discrimination. She is disabled. She is still human. She is still entitled

to hopes and dreams, a chance to live her life without the judgment of

others. ~~~Aggy

________________________________

To: Autism_in_Girls_and_Women

Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 11:39:30 PM

Subject: Re: Ethical issues and pregnancy

Cj I think most of us here would be hard pressed to disagree with some parts

of your analysis. But the timing of this discussion lacks some empathetic

compassion..

The mothers/grandmother s on this list are standup dedicated, thoughtful,

insightful mothers. Let us not do or say anything that adds to their pain.

Their lives have been altered dramatically. They have not failed their

daughters or their grand children. They are stepping into the reality, a

difficult reality, well aware, well informed and doing their utmost to

bravely continue to parent and grandparent. I have the deepest regard and

respect for you new grandmothers. Who among us can do anything other than

praise you and want to offer our support. None of us would want to walk in

your shoes. Many of us will, inspite of our best proactive mothering.

.. The new mothers here should not be labeled as inadequate to the task.

Many of us had mothers without " disability " who fell far short of the ideal.

I feel indignant that you are making these statements about these fine

women on our list. Jay

-- [Autism_in_Girls_ and_Women] Ethical issues and pregnancy

I'm experiencing some disturbing ethical issues regarding those mothers

who allow their (low-functioning) autistic daughters to become pregnant

and birth a child.

As I'm reading your posts, these autistic daughters seem barely capable

of feeding themselves and maintaining a relationship, let alone capable

of independent living. By their own mothers' admission, they are young

children -- except in their ability to become pregnant.

These severely autistic daughters would not seem to have the capacity to

consent to sexual activity with anyone.. They do not understand the

ramifications of such a decision, nor do they have the emotional

maturity to deal with the consequences of their actions.

As I'm reading your posts, these daughters do not understand the concept

of prenatal and ob/gyn care, and may find both these and the birth

process to be traumatic beyond measure. To add insult to injury, these

severely autistic women are incapable of caring for a newborn and

providing for even its most basic needs.

Now, I do understand that many people have moral issues about

terminating a pregnancy, so I won't go there. But what about recognizing

the realities here, and at a minimum expect that caregivers maintain

their autistic female dependents on some method of birth control? And

perhaps monitor their autistic daughter's social life so as to prevent

them from being taken advantage of sexually or making decisions that

they are not equipped to make? If you do not protect them, who will?

I honestly do not believe that everyone is entitled to have a child (or

grandchild) simply because the technology exists for them to do so. What

about the welfare of the child? What about the burden on caregivers to

whom the responsibility of raising that child may fall? What about the

additional costs to the taxpayers in terms of the resources that mother

and child will require?

To be clear, I'm not referring to those with Asperger's Syndrome, but

those women who suffer from a more classic form of autism, one which

essentially keeps them children forever.

In case you think that I'm trying to limit the rights of autistics, I

feel very much the same about those neurotypical women who insist on

becoming pregnant at an age where their eggs are barely viable, thereby

placing their unborn children at risk for severe birth defects. Or, at

the very least, subjecting that child to graduating from high school all

alone, because they are now far too elderly to make the trip. To me,

that is the epitome of selfishness.

Then there is the spina bifida issue. Ladies, if you are of childbearing

age and have the capacity to become pregnant, please take a multivitamin

containing folic acid so as not to place your unborn child (unplanned or

not) at risk for spina bifida. No excuses please -- in the vast majority

of cases, neural tube defects are totally preventable.

Off my soapbox for now. I am just so upset that a mother would allow her

dependent autistic daughter to become pregnant, when that daughter may

be barely able to distinguish between a newborn human child and a " Betsy

Wetsy " doll.

Best,

~CJ

April 27, 2009

cj you are of new to this journey so will give grace to the thinking you

expressed. as for self my daughter is of aspergers and high enogh but does needs

supports and life teaching. my grandbaby is of very very well adjusted and is of

very intellent actually advanced developmentally even though her mom is of not

typical she is of doing her very best at caring for Delaney.

I to have of autism not aspergers and had of a much challenged life always and

grew up much from teen years on in institutions and yet came to a place that yes

did marry the first man to ask of me and had no understand of all this and

lacked how the babies came to me (not correlating sex to pregnancy) and things

and yes in the begin my oldest was of like a doll but I to learned quick all by

of my self because didnot have of a mom or person teach of me. I to learned

parenting and it might not look like other parenting but i to feel in much ways

did better than half the parenting things I to observe around me.

My children were of well cared for. they are of happy kids for the most part. My

Aimee as i to shared with supports was of a good student, she is of slight above

average intellect of 112 or around that. she is of one who loves dance and play

and drama things. she loves of shakespere somthing my brain cant understand the

language in at all.

Because of my own autism though it was harder for me to be of like other moms. I

to also did not have any indication of her being sexual at all.

we actually considered of adoption for the baby because of the autism in the

family for fear what if she is of typical and not understand of the way an

autistic family is, I to wanted better for her. but we decided that this is the

family she is of born too. this is of the family that will love her and she is

of 3 now and isof very affectionate, very verbal and loves her mom and step dad

and nana and papa. she is of loved and she knows it. our world revolves around

her. If Aimee is of struggling and not coping life things i to take the baby to

come to my home for a few days so her mom can recenter and find a calm to the

internal meltdown state.

Aimee can cook, clean and pay bills, she can do her own laundry and dress of her

self and the baby and can bathe, and dress her baby too, sometimes needs help

with matching and coordinating clothes but that is of not a horrible things that

one cant live with. but with supports she can managage and she does have MRDD

who is of to her home several times a month and she has waiver respite like

people who help her organize of the home and clean of it in more organized

fashion. she needs to go on with her life and choices and she needs to do this

independently with the community supports because some day when i to be of gone

she would not have of these skills I to be of creating for her as she is of aged

into adult life.

To isolate more of her social life would have not allowed for social experineces

and exposure to the human development of independence. I t wanted of my child to

be of independent in this life, Aimee wanted of this for her own being too.

She also from modeling and teaching when she lived with me knows HOW to play

with delaney games, toys and reads to her often and every nice day they go for

stroller rides to the library or stores or park. and at least once a week goes

to the zoo to see the animals.

is Aimee a perfect parent in all areas of life... i to think not but nor is

there any perfect parent in life. will she learn how to parent more and more

Yes, because it is of a process. no one is given a manual to how to parent so

for ALL it is of a process.

Yes her development is of anywhere from 13 on average to 17 or so she is of

still learning and gaining in life skills. Did I to want of her to have a baby

so young NEVER, did i to want of her to get of married so young NO, did I to

want of her to have another baby NO but as an adult she has of the rights to

make of her choices and to learn and to be of a mom/

If she were of more involved in her autism then no would not be to ahve allowed

her some of the social freedoms and would surely have been of more over

portective. Her younger sister while looks typical once you know of her and or

see her testing you know she is of not as advanced as she appears. so yes more

protective of her, she has of social freedoms to some degree. i to also be of

proactive and she is of on birth control to prevent of any babies coming.

some of the reasons Aspergers girls navigate to the boys is of due to social

outcast from the females, so they find success socially among boys but as the

develop and mature the boys begin to not see of them as pals but females and the

females do not have a strogn awareness of this and become targets of

manipulation but so do NT teen girls. but the aspergers girls is of more

vulnerable to it. I to learned it much so now but was not aware of the dangers

of this when Aimee was of a teen. it was of something hidden from me and so

never feared for Aimee in areas of sex things.

does her having of a baby and make of her choices make of me a bad mom... no

because i to see of bad moms who kick their teen pregnant girls out of the home

to defend and figure out life when they need of their moms more than ever....

that to me is of bad parenting...

for me letting go is of not being of a bad parent because i to wanted to allow

Aimee the RIGHT to human development, to forcefully withold that from her would

have created much more issues of non development which means institutional

setting or group home or things of this that will not allow her ability to

develop to go forward but stagnate there and create agitation and frustration

and develop of depressions and such from being stilted and not allowed to

advance forward.

Again not always happy with the process because it causes me stress and anxiety

and fear and CHANGE and that is of hard but I to ahve to work through this in

this life because someday will not be of here and if not supported her growth

and find her supports, the state would have and that to me is of by far worse

than thinking than the situation in which I to now live because of my Aimee.

But in 20 years from now she may be of where I to be of at now as a parent and

she will have of the good foundation of learning and knowing because she wasd

given the chance. she may be of where I to be of sitting now and sharing of her

life and how it molded her to be of the person she is of in this life.

Lastly to close ALL of my children love of me greatly and in therapy times they

expressed the most important things in life to them is of me.... so while was

much more involved in my autism 20 years ago i to parented well with I to put

things into perspective.

My other children Isaiah is of 20 and he is of aspergers too. he is of bright,

caring, has a intellect of 120, drives, works and cares for self with no

supports. he is of under a internship under the attorney general as a IT sort of

person. He was of just interviewed for a full time job there and if he gets of

it it increases of hims pay by 5 or so an hour.

My son Mike is of soon to be of 18 he has of one more year of high school he was

greatly impacted by the autism things as a younger child. today one cant tell he

is of ever to had of autism , even though he is of dx now as aspergers. he was

very aggressive and bolted often and was of the most with behaviors to my home

and we had to work through all of that , he faired of better by havign a mom

with autism who COULD understand of the autism mindset and work ways into

teaching self adapting skills. He is of brilliant with art. he sketches much so

and is of applying to go to the college of art in Phillidephia. he is of also

interested in Culinary things. He has not shown any interest in moving forward

in hims teen life such as job or wanting to drive or even to own a car... no

interest., I to encourage but I to not push. when he is of ready as Mike has

done all of hims life he will then pursue of it but not until then. Hims dad and

me plan to buy of him a car this fall as enourage of him to spark the desire to

drive.

My Missy is of soon to be of 16 she wants all the things a 16 year wants , her

development does not match it all yet for her so we will delay some of these

things life driving and a job, we might let her obtain a job mid summer for

10-15 hours a week. just to see what she is of able to do. Will missys intellect

is of slight below average she is of way below average in her over all learning.

she is of more internally involved and stronger in the " not getting it " sort of

mind set, so as I to shared I to allow her social freedoms but I to drive around

and do much physcial checks of her where abouts and if she is of with peers that

are of forbiden i to make her get into the van to go home for the day or two. I

to monitor her more. Is she going to make mistakes ,,, Yes but that is of how we

ALL learn.

sondra

April 27, 2009