Guest guest Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 I'm certainly no doctor, but it does sound like you're overtraining your back. I would cut out some sets and/or substitute leg presses for squats and deadlifts for a while. Gray City? * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! ------- From: isdnx3 I'll try my best in describing my dilemma. It started about a month ago, and gradually built up to the point where I had to stop my Squats for a few minutes this afternoon. Not exactly a pain in the lower back, more like an extreme unbearable stiffness. The best analogy I could make would be to performing bicep curls with your 10RM for 15+ forced reps; not necessarily the same physiologically, but a good measure of the " pain " or uncomfort. I'm 20 yrs old, weigh 175 lbs, 8% bodyfat, back in supposed very good shape, I train 4-5 days per week with a typical bodybuilding split. I recently increased slightly the frequency of my leg workouts, so my guess is that my lower back is simply overtrained when combined with very heavy bent-over rows and deadlifts (basically hitting the back 2-3 times per week either isometrically through exercises such as bent rows, or directly with straight legged deadlifts and squats). My hypercaloric intake is around 3500 calories per day spread over 8 feedings, so my recovery nutrition- wise is upto par. I just can't quite pinpoint the problem. Squats are usually my first exercise. After 3 warmup sets, usually on the 3rd warmup set, it'll start acting up. On the main heavy set it's almost unbearable even with a belt. Then I'd go to leg press which rightfully relieves the pain by putting pressure on the back giving it a break. 15 minutes later its fine! I'd try to search on the internet but I'm not sure what to call this problem... I don't think its typical " lower back pain " . Any help or advices would be appreciated (but please don't merely suggest seeing a doctor, that option is unavailable to me at the moment). Much appreciated, Eugene Sanik * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 Try doing some back extensions and see if the problem is replicated at the top of the extension when the erector spinae is at its shortest with lots of cross linkages in the muscle. If so, then i would assume you have strained your lower erector spinae. However, I would strongly advise you ease off the high level squats for 6 weeks and work on strengthening your Transversus Abdominis and Ab Obliques, and stretch your hip flexors. Although it doesn't sound like lumbar disc symptoms, you want to do all you can to protect these. Make sure you are well hydrated before working out, as lumbar discs have a high water content, and will bulge more when you are dehydrated. You also might want to experiment doing your workout in the morning when discs are taller and more imbibed with water than late in the afternoon, assuming you are not a night shift worker. You could also try doing the yoga cat position. squat on all 4s and slowly flex and extend your spine by arching you back towards the ceiling, then dipping it towards the floor. This will help the discs, the lumbar facet joints, and give the lower erector spinae a gentle stretch. Hope this helps Bruce Gray Physiotherapist Brisbane, Australia > > I'll try my best in describing my dilemma. It started about a month > ago, and gradually built up to the point where I had to stop my > Squats for a few minutes this afternoon. > > Not exactly a pain in the lower back, more like an extreme > unbearable stiffness. The best analogy I could make would be to > performing bicep curls with your 10RM for 15+ forced reps; not > necessarily the same physiologically, but a good measure of > the " pain " or uncomfort. > > I'm 20 yrs old, weigh 175 lbs, 8% bodyfat, back in supposed very > good shape, I train 4-5 days per week with a typical bodybuilding > split. I recently increased slightly the frequency of my leg > workouts, so my guess is that my lower back is simply overtrained > when combined with very heavy bent-over rows and deadlifts > (basically hitting the back 2-3 times per week either isometrically > through exercises such as bent rows, or directly with straight > legged deadlifts and squats). My hypercaloric intake is around 3500 > calories per day spread over 8 feedings, so my recovery nutrition- > wise is upto par. > > I just can't quite pinpoint the problem. Squats are usually my first > exercise. After 3 warmup sets, usually on the 3rd warmup set, it'll > start acting up. On the main heavy set it's almost unbearable even > with a belt. Then I'd go to leg press which rightfully relieves the > pain by putting pressure on the back giving it a break. 15 minutes > later its fine! I'd try to search on the internet but I'm not sure > what to call this problem... I don't think its typical " lower back > pain " . > > Any help or advices would be appreciated (but please don't merely > suggest seeing a doctor, that option is unavailable to me at the > moment). > > Much appreciated, > > Eugene Sanik > > * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of > residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2002 Report Share Posted July 20, 2002 Hello Eugene; It sounds to me like your back is just cramping up. Besides the direct, bending, back work you do so much a week, your back has to hold itself in a painful static position while you do other exercises, ie. squat. Holding a static position is extremely painful; even more than putting it through a range of motion under weight. For example, hold a heavy weight straight out and rigid on a leg extension and your quads will likely start cramping. Compare that to doing regular leg extensions, flex, relax, flex, relax - no cramping. I am quessing you are holding your back straight and rigid (as you should) on too many exercises. It's learning to cramp right away from all the overwork. Try not letting your back do that more than once a week, at least for a while. And cut back the length of the sets that you have your back rigid by cutting back the reps. Try doing full range of motion stretches. Mine used to cramp. As you described, it was painful, but not injured. Or maybe it is . . . Just some thoughts from my experience, Good luck, Tom Gunterman Placerville, Ca. > I'll try my best in describing my dilemma. It started about a month > ago, and gradually built up to the point where I had to stop my > Squats for a few minutes this afternoon. > > Not exactly a pain in the lower back, more like an extreme > unbearable stiffness. The best analogy I could make would be to > performing bicep curls with your 10RM for 15+ forced reps; not > necessarily the same physiologically, but a good measure of > the " pain " or uncomfort. > > I'm 20 yrs old, weigh 175 lbs, 8% bodyfat, back in supposed very > good shape, I train 4-5 days per week with a typical bodybuilding > split. I recently increased slightly the frequency of my leg > workouts, so my guess is that my lower back is simply overtrained > when combined with very heavy bent-over rows and deadlifts > (basically hitting the back 2-3 times per week either isometrically > through exercises such as bent rows, or directly with straight > legged deadlifts and squats). My hypercaloric intake is around 3500 > calories per day spread over 8 feedings, so my recovery nutrition- > wise is upto par. > > I just can't quite pinpoint the problem. Squats are usually my first > exercise. After 3 warmup sets, usually on the 3rd warmup set, it'll > start acting up. On the main heavy set it's almost unbearable even > with a belt. Then I'd go to leg press which rightfully relieves the > pain by putting pressure on the back giving it a break. 15 minutes > later its fine! I'd try to search on the internet but I'm not sure > what to call this problem... I don't think its typical " lower back > pain " . > > Any help or advices would be appreciated (but please don't merely > suggest seeing a doctor, that option is unavailable to me at the > moment). > > Much appreciated, > > Eugene Sanik > Brooklyn, NY > > in some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Eugene -- you might want to consult a chiropractor to get checked for any disk diformity or any spinal misalignment which may cause the ' pain'. Although I simply think you are experiencing overtraining symptoms. Perhaps working on your core stabalizers ie: the abs as much as your back would also help. [A chiro would not be the appropriate person to accurately and objectively diagnose neurological abnormalities, unless the chiro also happens to be a medical neurologist with all the necessary technology available to carry out a thorough medical analysis. Mel Siff] Tania Gross mississauga, ontario ------- >I'll try my best in describing my dilemma. It started about a month >ago, and gradually built up to the point where I had to stop my >Squats for a few minutes this afternoon. > >Not exactly a pain in the lower back, more like an extreme >unbearable stiffness. The best analogy I could make would be to >performing bicep curls with your 10RM for 15+ forced reps; not >necessarily the same physiologically, but a good measure of >the " pain " or uncomfort. > >I'm 20 yrs old, weigh 175 lbs, 8% bodyfat, back in supposed very >good shape, I train 4-5 days per week with a typical bodybuilding >split. I recently increased slightly the frequency of my leg >workouts, so my guess is that my lower back is simply overtrained >when combined with very heavy bent-over rows and deadlifts >(basically hitting the back 2-3 times per week either isometrically >through exercises such as bent rows, or directly with straight >legged deadlifts and squats). My hypercaloric intake is around 3500 >calories per day spread over 8 feedings, so my recovery nutrition- >wise is upto par. > >I just can't quite pinpoint the problem. Squats are usually my first >exercise. After 3 warmup sets, usually on the 3rd warmup set, it'll >start acting up. On the main heavy set it's almost unbearable even >with a belt. Then I'd go to leg press which rightfully relieves the >pain by putting pressure on the back giving it a break. 15 minutes >later its fine! I'd try to search on the internet but I'm not sure >what to call this problem... I don't think its typical " lower back >pain " . > >Any help or advices would be appreciated (but please don't merely >suggest seeing a doctor, that option is unavailable to me at the >moment). > >Much appreciated, > >Eugene Sanik * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Eugene -- you might want to consult a chiropractor to get checked for any disk diformity or any spinal misalignment which may cause the ' pain'. Although I simply think you are experiencing overtraining symptoms. Perhaps working on your core stabalizers ie: the abs as much as your back would also help. [A chiro would not be the appropriate person to accurately and objectively diagnose neurological abnormalities, unless the chiro also happens to be a medical neurologist with all the necessary technology available to carry out a thorough medical analysis. Mel Siff] Tania Gross mississauga, ontario ------- >I'll try my best in describing my dilemma. It started about a month >ago, and gradually built up to the point where I had to stop my >Squats for a few minutes this afternoon. > >Not exactly a pain in the lower back, more like an extreme >unbearable stiffness. The best analogy I could make would be to >performing bicep curls with your 10RM for 15+ forced reps; not >necessarily the same physiologically, but a good measure of >the " pain " or uncomfort. > >I'm 20 yrs old, weigh 175 lbs, 8% bodyfat, back in supposed very >good shape, I train 4-5 days per week with a typical bodybuilding >split. I recently increased slightly the frequency of my leg >workouts, so my guess is that my lower back is simply overtrained >when combined with very heavy bent-over rows and deadlifts >(basically hitting the back 2-3 times per week either isometrically >through exercises such as bent rows, or directly with straight >legged deadlifts and squats). My hypercaloric intake is around 3500 >calories per day spread over 8 feedings, so my recovery nutrition- >wise is upto par. > >I just can't quite pinpoint the problem. Squats are usually my first >exercise. After 3 warmup sets, usually on the 3rd warmup set, it'll >start acting up. On the main heavy set it's almost unbearable even >with a belt. Then I'd go to leg press which rightfully relieves the >pain by putting pressure on the back giving it a break. 15 minutes >later its fine! I'd try to search on the internet but I'm not sure >what to call this problem... I don't think its typical " lower back >pain " . > >Any help or advices would be appreciated (but please don't merely >suggest seeing a doctor, that option is unavailable to me at the >moment). > >Much appreciated, > >Eugene Sanik * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2002 Report Share Posted July 22, 2002 Eugene -- you might want to consult a chiropractor to get checked for any disk diformity or any spinal misalignment which may cause the ' pain'. Although I simply think you are experiencing overtraining symptoms. Perhaps working on your core stabalizers ie: the abs as much as your back would also help. [A chiro would not be the appropriate person to accurately and objectively diagnose neurological abnormalities, unless the chiro also happens to be a medical neurologist with all the necessary technology available to carry out a thorough medical analysis. Mel Siff] Tania Gross mississauga, ontario ------- >I'll try my best in describing my dilemma. It started about a month >ago, and gradually built up to the point where I had to stop my >Squats for a few minutes this afternoon. > >Not exactly a pain in the lower back, more like an extreme >unbearable stiffness. The best analogy I could make would be to >performing bicep curls with your 10RM for 15+ forced reps; not >necessarily the same physiologically, but a good measure of >the " pain " or uncomfort. > >I'm 20 yrs old, weigh 175 lbs, 8% bodyfat, back in supposed very >good shape, I train 4-5 days per week with a typical bodybuilding >split. I recently increased slightly the frequency of my leg >workouts, so my guess is that my lower back is simply overtrained >when combined with very heavy bent-over rows and deadlifts >(basically hitting the back 2-3 times per week either isometrically >through exercises such as bent rows, or directly with straight >legged deadlifts and squats). My hypercaloric intake is around 3500 >calories per day spread over 8 feedings, so my recovery nutrition- >wise is upto par. > >I just can't quite pinpoint the problem. Squats are usually my first >exercise. After 3 warmup sets, usually on the 3rd warmup set, it'll >start acting up. On the main heavy set it's almost unbearable even >with a belt. Then I'd go to leg press which rightfully relieves the >pain by putting pressure on the back giving it a break. 15 minutes >later its fine! I'd try to search on the internet but I'm not sure >what to call this problem... I don't think its typical " lower back >pain " . > >Any help or advices would be appreciated (but please don't merely >suggest seeing a doctor, that option is unavailable to me at the >moment). > >Much appreciated, > >Eugene Sanik * Don't forget to sign all letters with full name and city of residence if you wish them to be published! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2002 Report Share Posted July 23, 2002 Bruce Gray wrote: > Although it doesn't sound like lumbar disc symptoms, you want to do > all you can to protect these. Make sure you are well hydrated before > working out, as lumbar discs have a high water content, and will > bulge more when you are dehydrated. Casler: <Hi Bruce -- Do you have any evidence of this? I might suggest it is just the opposite. I think a little research will show that a well hydrated disc will " bulge " more, due to a taller disc, providing a greater " exposed " disc surface and potential for greater intra-disc hydraulic pressure. A dehydrated disc is " shorter " and the has less internal hydraulic pressure, is more solid, less flexible and cannot absorb/dissipate shock as well since it has reduced ability to compress.> Bruce Gray: OK, so what you are disputing here is when does a disc bulge most, when well-imbibed or not? I just had a quick look on my shelf at: Norkin and Levange: Joint Structure and Function: A Comprehensive Analysis. 1992. p164 Nordin and el: Basic Biomechanics of the Musculoskeletal System. 1989 Schmatz and Schultz: Lumbar disc degeneration; correlation with age, sex, and spine level in 600 autopsy specimens. 1988. Two other studies re diurnal disc changes I have notes from are from these guys, but I don't have the titles currently but can get em with in time: ADAMS, DOLAN, HUTTON Hickey & Hukins NACHEMSON I am also referring back to lectures by Bogduk and Jull at University of Queensland. My point is that an imbibed disc under load generates more compression of NP outwards against AF and end plates. Thus even though this disc is taller, the AF is under more tensile force than in a dehydrated disc, and will thus bulge less. [NP = nucleus pulposus, the pulpy interior of the disc; AF = annulus fibrosus, the fibrous mesh around the central pulp. Mel Siff] Further, when lumbar discs are less tall, as towards the end of the day, the posterior ligamentous system (PLL, LF, ILL, SPL) and Z jt capsules are all more slack, thus causing the lumbar spine neutral zone to increase. This makes intervertebral joints more unstable and increases shear forces, especially during lumbar flexion or even tilting the spine more parallel with the floor. [The main point being made here is that was querying the claim that the drinking of fluid would have a rapid effect on rehydrating the disc. Mel Siff] I might also add that to argue a disc is functionally more sound when dehydrated is to argue against the Darwinian natural selection of imbibation as giving a survival advantage. In a healthy young adult spine, imbibation is greatest, and declines with age as proteoglycan concentration decreases and vertebral circulation and end plate diffusion dynamics change. One point you make doesn't ring true with me. You argue that a shorter disc: <..... has less internal hydraulic pressure, is more solid, less flexible and cannot absorb/dissipate shock as well since it has reduced ability to compress.> My understanding is that whether the disc is tall or short, a compression force is (the same as for a tall disc) through basically the same cross sectional area. This is discounting that if a dehydrated disc is short enough, some of the compression force is transmitted through the Z jt capsules. It seems to me that you are contradictory in stating that a short disc has less internal pressure, and yet is more solid or less flexilble. If you think of a balloon half blown up compared with one fully blown up, which is more flexible? You then argue that a short disc has reduced ability to compress. This is not the issue. The issue is how lax either disc is, because the critical point is, when flexing the spine or bending forward with straight back, which disc state is the most unstable and allows the most shear or posterolateral (generally) protrusion? For the reasons already outlined, I still maintain that a well-imbibed disc bulges less when one is standing upright and flexing. As for water intake effecting disc height, I agree that loading changes are the key factor. However, in general physiological terms, interstitial fluid volume is higher when well hydrated, especially when the demands of exercise call on a higher blood volume and pull ISF back into the circulation to maintain BP. I cannot remember a specific reference that proves disc height is maintained longer when a person is well hydrated, however I remember Bogduk and Jull making the point, based on altered diffusion gradients across the endplates in the presence of poor circulation. I would also argue that most tissues, especially the posterior longitudinal ligamentum and lig. flavum in this instance, will resist microtearing in a more hydrated state. Hydophilic molecule based tissues are less 'brittle' in the presence of water. Casler: <Also what causes you to think that " hydrating " (drinking ??) before a workout will lead to hydration of the disc? Generally I think that the hydration of the disc is linked to the amount of compression and decompression loads it experiences. That is why it is usually found to be the most hydrated after a night of low load or decompression on that " Posture Pedic " mattress.> <[i agree with here - disc hydration has a great deal to do with mechanical loading and not simply with the acute ingestion of fluids. Anyway, it is not " bulging " which is the fundamental problem, but whether or not the perfectly natural process of bulging leads to failure of some portion of the disc. Mel Siff] ---------- Bruce Gray Rehab Physiotherapist Brisbane Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2002 Report Share Posted July 23, 2002 Bruce Gray wrote: > Although it doesn't sound like lumbar disc symptoms, you want to do > all you can to protect these. Make sure you are well hydrated before > working out, as lumbar discs have a high water content, and will > bulge more when you are dehydrated. Casler: <Hi Bruce -- Do you have any evidence of this? I might suggest it is just the opposite. I think a little research will show that a well hydrated disc will " bulge " more, due to a taller disc, providing a greater " exposed " disc surface and potential for greater intra-disc hydraulic pressure. A dehydrated disc is " shorter " and the has less internal hydraulic pressure, is more solid, less flexible and cannot absorb/dissipate shock as well since it has reduced ability to compress.> Bruce Gray: OK, so what you are disputing here is when does a disc bulge most, when well-imbibed or not? I just had a quick look on my shelf at: Norkin and Levange: Joint Structure and Function: A Comprehensive Analysis. 1992. p164 Nordin and el: Basic Biomechanics of the Musculoskeletal System. 1989 Schmatz and Schultz: Lumbar disc degeneration; correlation with age, sex, and spine level in 600 autopsy specimens. 1988. Two other studies re diurnal disc changes I have notes from are from these guys, but I don't have the titles currently but can get em with in time: ADAMS, DOLAN, HUTTON Hickey & Hukins NACHEMSON I am also referring back to lectures by Bogduk and Jull at University of Queensland. My point is that an imbibed disc under load generates more compression of NP outwards against AF and end plates. Thus even though this disc is taller, the AF is under more tensile force than in a dehydrated disc, and will thus bulge less. [NP = nucleus pulposus, the pulpy interior of the disc; AF = annulus fibrosus, the fibrous mesh around the central pulp. Mel Siff] Further, when lumbar discs are less tall, as towards the end of the day, the posterior ligamentous system (PLL, LF, ILL, SPL) and Z jt capsules are all more slack, thus causing the lumbar spine neutral zone to increase. This makes intervertebral joints more unstable and increases shear forces, especially during lumbar flexion or even tilting the spine more parallel with the floor. [The main point being made here is that was querying the claim that the drinking of fluid would have a rapid effect on rehydrating the disc. Mel Siff] I might also add that to argue a disc is functionally more sound when dehydrated is to argue against the Darwinian natural selection of imbibation as giving a survival advantage. In a healthy young adult spine, imbibation is greatest, and declines with age as proteoglycan concentration decreases and vertebral circulation and end plate diffusion dynamics change. One point you make doesn't ring true with me. You argue that a shorter disc: <..... has less internal hydraulic pressure, is more solid, less flexible and cannot absorb/dissipate shock as well since it has reduced ability to compress.> My understanding is that whether the disc is tall or short, a compression force is (the same as for a tall disc) through basically the same cross sectional area. This is discounting that if a dehydrated disc is short enough, some of the compression force is transmitted through the Z jt capsules. It seems to me that you are contradictory in stating that a short disc has less internal pressure, and yet is more solid or less flexilble. If you think of a balloon half blown up compared with one fully blown up, which is more flexible? You then argue that a short disc has reduced ability to compress. This is not the issue. The issue is how lax either disc is, because the critical point is, when flexing the spine or bending forward with straight back, which disc state is the most unstable and allows the most shear or posterolateral (generally) protrusion? For the reasons already outlined, I still maintain that a well-imbibed disc bulges less when one is standing upright and flexing. As for water intake effecting disc height, I agree that loading changes are the key factor. However, in general physiological terms, interstitial fluid volume is higher when well hydrated, especially when the demands of exercise call on a higher blood volume and pull ISF back into the circulation to maintain BP. I cannot remember a specific reference that proves disc height is maintained longer when a person is well hydrated, however I remember Bogduk and Jull making the point, based on altered diffusion gradients across the endplates in the presence of poor circulation. I would also argue that most tissues, especially the posterior longitudinal ligamentum and lig. flavum in this instance, will resist microtearing in a more hydrated state. Hydophilic molecule based tissues are less 'brittle' in the presence of water. Casler: <Also what causes you to think that " hydrating " (drinking ??) before a workout will lead to hydration of the disc? Generally I think that the hydration of the disc is linked to the amount of compression and decompression loads it experiences. That is why it is usually found to be the most hydrated after a night of low load or decompression on that " Posture Pedic " mattress.> <[i agree with here - disc hydration has a great deal to do with mechanical loading and not simply with the acute ingestion of fluids. Anyway, it is not " bulging " which is the fundamental problem, but whether or not the perfectly natural process of bulging leads to failure of some portion of the disc. Mel Siff] ---------- Bruce Gray Rehab Physiotherapist Brisbane Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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