Re: Re: Is an air purifier INEFFECTIVE against carpet off

[Guest guest]

Re: utterly flawed theory aimed at gutting

environmental protections:

1.) No one knows for sure whether small exposure

are harmful or not, or whether extreme avoidance

is the best way to handle mold exposure.

Certainly getting to cleanest environment we can

has to be a good thing. Whether or not 'any'

contact at all is harmful or beneficial or

neutral, none of us know for sure.

2.) To be complete in discussion one should hear

opposite, perfectly valid, theories.

3.) There is NOTHING NEW about this theory. It's

older than anyone in this group. My parents

worried they kept my sister too clean and that is

why she got polio, so nothing new at all. That

was viral exposure though and this is toxins, but

also I was referring to exposure to mold.

Children do not have strong immune systems since

they are 'new' and haven't been exposed to them

yet, so it is as old as that recommendation that

children and the elderly be vaccinated, before

adults. The elderly since there immune systems

are old and maybe not strong anymore. Children

because their immune systems are new and haven't

developed many antibodies yet. Without exposure

you can lose immunity to many things that is why

vaccines are supposed to be given over again or

wear out over time.

4.) I'm not proposing this is case or that people

purposely go out and expose themselves to things

as there is enough we run into accidentally to

take care of that. I'm just stating that there

is an opposite theory out there so nothing to say

for sure that some exposure daily is a terrible

thing, that will ruin the other 23 hours of a day

you were away from it. May be true, may not be

true. Noone knows for sure. All these are

theories.

5.) I don't know that people who need to live in

a metal capsule and move around with the wind,

should criticize others for not following.

However I might have to do that too, so not

criticizing either. If I did, I wouldn't feel

superior to others in my solution. I'd just feel

sorry for them and me too.

--- LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> 'BBW',

>

> This is the UTTERLY FLAWED 'hormesis' theory

> that is currently being

> pushed as a way to get scientists to accept

> GUTTING ENVIRONMENTAL

> PROTECTIONS in many ways..

> > You must realize that..

> http://www.google.com/search?q=hormesis

[Guest guest]

On 10/22/06, bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> Re: utterly flawed theory aimed at gutting

> environmental protections:

>

> 1.) No one knows for sure whether small exposure

> are harmful or not, or whether extreme avoidance

> is the best way to handle mold exposure.

> Certainly getting to cleanest environment we can

> has to be a good thing. Whether or not 'any'

> contact at all is harmful or beneficial or

> neutral, none of us know for sure.

At this point, MY #1 concern is my own situation, and getting better.

I had many years, basically, of serious mold

exposure, and I need to get better. The best model that I have seen to date

is the TILT model which is also

Dr. Shoemakers and others. This isn't talking about average people, ist

talking about people who are already sick. AND BECAUSE OF THE DISINFORMATION

CAMPAIGN, I personally think that a significant number of people who are

sick from mold illness are not aware of the fact that mold is probably the

cause of their illnesses.

Look at just one important illness, age related cognitive decline driven by

vascular insufficiency. In other words, dementia in older people. Dr. S.

says that 24% of us have the genes that make us potentially sensitive to

mold illness. How many older people, do you think, live in older houses,

many of which they can't maintain all that well. very many. Lets say 10%,

for the sake of this discussion..

Applying that logic, I think its safe to say that there are probably

MILLIONS of older people JUST in this country who are getting senile - or

more accurately, THINK they are getting senile, but aren't necessarily

permanently injured yet - NEEDLESSLY... Thats why its important to

understand this issue in all its complexity.. and not apply simplistic

catch-all logic...

That model says that the body cant begin to recover until the exposure gets

very low.. That jibes well with my experience..

2.) To be complete in discussion one should hear

> opposite, perfectly valid, theories.

Americans are inherently democratic, so that logic works for ideas, but it

isn't the way science necessarily works.

And it needs to be stated that often, people get terribly mixed up.

Its true, that some exposure to, for example, bacteria, strengthens the

immune system. Kids who grow up on farms, for example, tend to be healthier

than kds who grow up in hyperclean suburban homes.. BUT.. the problem is

that this is not some innocent discussion.. Its a discussion which is

determining public policy and the powers that be are trying to weaken every

protection we have.. DON'T WORRY, people will get the exposures they get

and they will build up immunity.. Its NOT positive to go backwards on

environmental protections in order to protect us. WE ALL KNOW WHY...

> It's

> older than anyone in this group. My parents

> worried they kept my sister too clean and that is

> why she got polio, so nothing new at all. That

> was viral exposure though and this is toxins, but

> also I was referring to exposure to mold.

The reason I think this is BAD BAD BAD is because SO many people are

probably sick from mold and don't know it. Thats just MY opinion. Its based

on my own experience. I REALLY didn't want to believe that MOLD was what was

making me sick because yes, IT WOULD REQUIRE THAT I RE-EVALUATE MANY OF THE

EXPERIENCES going back years in that light.. But I did and after I did

things that didn't before started making sense.. and now this is what I

feel. I am not going to try to explain it to you any more, you either

understand or you don't.

Look, I am just looking at all the people I know who have described symptoms

to me like mine..

I might be wrong, of course.. but I think that few people have the

intellectual courage to put this whole thing together because its

disturbing.. But we need to, and then get to work, together, to fix it

instead of all the drama..

Children do not have strong immune systems since

> they are 'new' and haven't been exposed to them

> yet, so it is as old as that recommendation that

> children and the elderly be vaccinated, before

> adults. The elderly since there immune systems

> are old and maybe not strong anymore. Children

> because their immune systems are new and haven't

> developed many antibodies yet. Without exposure

> you can lose immunity to many things that is why

> vaccines are supposed to be given over again or

> wear out over time.

Whatever.

YOU DON'T MAKE PEOPLE HEALTHY WITH POISONS...

YOU DON'T CREATE LOOPHOLES BIG ENOUGH TO DRIVE TRUCKS THROUGH...

4.) I'm not proposing this is case or that people

> purposely go out and expose themselves to things

> as there is enough we run into accidentally to

> take care of that. I'm just stating that there

> is an opposite theory out there so nothing to say

> for sure that some exposure daily is a terrible

> thing, that will ruin the other 23 hours of a day

> you were away from it. May be true, may not be

> true. Noone knows for sure. All these are

> theories.

Again, I think the scary thing is the cumulative nature of these things.

And also the fact that even though POOR PEOPLE DON'T, they usually CAN'T

COMPLAIN..

doesn't mean that those exposures aren't happening on a massive scale..

For example, think of all the (often) illegal immigrants who often, end up

being the ones who clean up mold in this country.. IN THE REAL WORLD... (not

the world of us, who make noise about this.. who are better informed than

99.9999% of the rest of the world on this..)

Well, they need to FEED THEIR FAMILIES TOO.. and wow, they are HUMAN TOO,

and guess what, 24% of THEM are also sensitive to mold.. But they CAN'T

COMPLAIN, because they are marginalized nonbeings in America..

Well, what goes around comes around.. How we treat the powerless is very

important in how well the future will see us. DID WE DEAL WITH THIS

CHALLENGE OR DID WE TRY TO DENY IT AND SWEEP IT UNDER THE RUG?

However society treats them is how it will treat us too.. I suspect - They

are just the tip of the iceberg..

5.) I don't know that people who need to live in

> a metal capsule and move around with the wind,

> should criticize others for not following.

> However I might have to do that too, so not

> criticizing either. If I did, I wouldn't feel

> superior to others in my solution. I'd just feel

> sorry for them and me too.

Hey, your beef is with me.. not others...

I thank those other people for making me aware of this viewpoint and I

rsisted it at first for the same reasons, I suppose, but now, facing the way

my own body has reacted to things bluntly, I have to admit indeed declare

that its right..

Yes, it has taken me a long time to realize that its the right one..

[Guest guest]

Re: senility

Yes, I came here to where I am now to take care

of a greataunt who had a stroke at 90, was living

alone. She had let the house run down. Hard to

criticize her for that at 90 but after she passed

away I got sick trying to clean the place up,

mold, lead paint, fell off a ladder backwards.

Good title to book Jeff. Cleaning up and

repairing the house is what has made me sick.

--- LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> On 10/22/06, bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

> >

> > Re: utterly flawed theory aimed at gutting

> > environmental protections:

> >

[Guest guest]

I make just barely over the threshold to apply

for disability and still work parttime. I'm not

willing to give up the parttime work for

disability which noone can promise me I would get

so I make very little since I can not work many

hours. It's a problem that impoverishes most

people. Health problems in general do that. I'd

just like to be healthy again. It was only a few

years ago I felt fine and I have worked so hard

to solve the problem!!

--- tigerpaw2c <tigerpaw2c@...> wrote:

> I need to voice my opinion on a couple comments

> here and NO I am not

>

[Guest guest]

Maybe another thing that we need to do is to put together a resource that

compiles all of our combined wisdoms.. and the things we don't know how to

do, we can collectively figure out how to do.. For example, figures out how

to do things like clean the mold out of cars.

Basically, a master resource that doesn't depend on .. (which

some people, like me, won't use directly because of privacy concerns.)

If we put our heads together on how this needs to be structured, I could

probably build it. I used to do things like that, but when I got sick, my

energy level dropped so much it became overwhelming.. Now I'm gradually

recovering, somewhat, and I need to see if I can get back on the horse, so

to speak.

The big problem I have is with sequential processing.. so if I had a partner

to work with, I think I could get up to speed faster.. In the past, I built

some very complicated web applications.. So I guess what I am saying is that

I could build us all a custom 'blog' of sorts.. This could tie in all the

existing mold websites so that the best resources on all of them was sort of

'aggregated' to make it easier to find things.. and could spotlight new

developments in the field..

[Guest guest]

Barb1283/bbw says:

>I make just barely over the threshold to apply

>for disability and still work parttime. I'm not

willing to give up the parttime work for

disability which noone can promise me I would get

so I make very little since I can not work many

hours. It's a problem that impoverishes most

people. Health problems in general do that. I'd

just like to be healthy again. It was only a few

years ago I felt fine and I have worked so hard

to solve the problem!!

I am in a similar situation in that I am living on very little. I grew up

poor and so I have always been very thrifty.

Thank God that before I got sick I made a decent salary and for years I also

was saving a lot of money (for retirement.. ) and for a long time after I

got sick i was able to live on unemployment and then, that..

My wife is not sick and right now she is supporting the both of us.

But I have been unemployed now for three years and now I need to get back to

work nomatter how sick I am.. so its do or die..

I never had a college degree and managed to work for many many years to get

to the kind of salary that people with college degrees get right away, so

the mold illness was like a kick in the family jewels in every possible way..

[Guest guest]

Well, this is not a test of the theory I stated.

I am not promoting theory, just stated it, but

this example is not an example of that.

First of all you changed your actions, and you

got better. Your father did not change his

actions and he did not get better. That is not a

part of any theory I stated.

It would be example of theory, IF your father

bought a new car to drive because he listened to

you, BUT since he loved his old car kept it and

drove it once in awhile just to keep it going.

Then he would have changed what he was doing,

spend most of his time driving a new, non moldy

car, and only drove other car once a month for

example. THEN that would be an example. Since

he did not do this, then it isn't an example of

this theory but none the less interesting story.

It is also interesting that you both live in same

apartment and you are not made continually ill

from toxins he must be bringing in from his moldy

car. I'm not saying this means anything, just is

interesting to topics we discuss here on board,

worth notating.

--- joseph salowitz <josephsalowitz@...>

wrote:

> Please let me turn " theory " into " practice " for

> you, from my personal

> experience. Fourteen months ago, I discovered

> that mold growing in my

> father's car, was making both of us sick with

> toxic mold reactions.

> Having had three previous toxic mold reaction

> episodes, from other

> sources,I was able to recognize it. I live with

> my father, who is 90

> years old, and had never had a previous toxic

> mold reaction. I stopped

> using the car, and all of my symptoms

> disappeared. He has continued to

> use the car. His use of the car is limited to

> less than one hour a day,

> four days a week. He has been extremely sick

> every single day of the

> past 14 months, with the exception of those

> days that he is on

> prednisone. Prednisone " turns off " the body's

> immune system, so that it

> can not react to anything that would normally

> be inflamatory to the

> body. In the last 14 months he has been

> hospitalized six times, on

> prednisone,at home, another six times, on

> oxygen all night, at least

> one week per month, on nebulzed albuterol and

> atrovent every single day

> of the past 14 months, on an inceased dose of

> high blood pressure

> medicines, with symptoms including headaches,

> chills, dizzyness,

> weakness, digestive problems, sinus and asthma

> exacerbations. He has

> had all his eyelashes removed from one eye, due

> to inflamation of the

> eyelids making the lashes poke him in the eye.

> He averages one lung

> infection per month, requiring antibiotics, due

> to the constant state

> of inflamation that his lungs are in.

>

> We live in the same apartment, and I am not the

> slightest bit sick. He

> doesn't believe in mold, in spite of the mold

> cultures I've grown, from

> the car, and sent to a lab, which confirmed

> mold in the car. He doesn't

> believe that mold can make anyone sick, in

> spite of the new sinus-mold

> test that I talked his doctor into being the

> second doctor in New York

> City to use, to give to my dad, that showed

> mold in his mucous.

>

> My dad doesn't believe in mold. He uses his car

> less than one hour a

> day, only four days a week. Do YOU still

> believe that we

> should " ...learn to get along with a little bit

> of mold " ?

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > 1.) No one knows for sure whether small

> exposure

> > are harmful or not, or whether extreme

> avoidance

> > is the best way to handle mold exposure.

> May be true, may not be

> > true. Noone knows for sure. All these are

> > theories.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I like that idea.

--- LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> Maybe another thing that we need to do is to

> put together a resource