Re: T-2 toxin and Satratoxin /blistering skin

[Guest guest]

The other thing I found interesting about this article is list of

symptoms for these two toxins. Skin blistering is mentioned. This

was for large doses as in warfare but in amounts we may encounter in

indoor mold problems it is easy to see where skin itchiness that so

many people describe might due due to toxins in the air/on the

skin. Article states that tricothecenes are absorbed RIGHT THROUGH

THE SKIN, so wearing a mask and googles even if made to protect from

toxins would not protect you enough and so therefore the 'outfits'

too. I thought that was to protect the clothing from being

contaminated, so you could take off haz mat suit and dispose of with

rest of contaminated stuff but perhaps also meant to protect skin

from absorbing toxins. Wow..it is very hard to protect yourself

from these toxins!! Since I get blistering rash once in awhile that

I thought was coming from inside me and still do, since I itch first

and show no sign of skin irritation and it seems to 'bubble up from

underneath skin', the skin blistering description makes sense to my

experience. If toxins are in blood and body is trying to get rid of

through skin, causing burning sensation which I have with rash and

blistering of skin, always at spot where my skin is the thinnest and

blood vessels close to the surface would all be symptomatic of

toxins. These same symptoms may also be body getting rid of other

toxins also, since it seems that 'toxins' in general seem to have

*many* similar characteristic even though from different sources,

including toxins from heavy metals and other chemicals. However for

tricothecenes definately blistering, burning skin.

--- In , " Branislav " <arealis@...>

wrote:

>

> http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/T2.html

>

>

> T-2 Toxin:

>

> essential data

>

>

> Symptoms, Treatment, Decontamination

> Syndrome Name none

>

> Symptoms

>

> * skin irritation

> * loss of function in:

> o intestines,

> o bone marrow,

> o lymph nodes,

> o spleen

> o thymus

> * Alimentary Toxic Aleukia (time course: 8 weeks with rapid

onset

> of symptoms)

> * burning sensation in alimentary tract

> * vomiting

> * tachycardia

> * leukopenia

> * petechial hemorrhages with necrosis in skin

> * internal hemorrhages

>

> Onset of Symptoms

>

> There is a fairly quick (<20 minutes) response similar to that seen

> with mustard (blistering of the skin and irritation of the eyes and

> throat). Symptoms of systemic poisoning appear relatively slowly

> (>8-12 hours.)

>

> Rapid diagnostic assay

>

> None, but rapid and sensitive assays for the detection and

monitoring

> of trichothecenes in cereals are available. They may not be readily

> adaptable to human diagnostics.

>

> Antidote

>

> None

>

>

> Supportive Care

>

> Removal of ingested toxins by treatment with adsorbents such as

> superactivated charcoal; treatment of symptoms

>

>

> Inactivation

>

> Decontamination with soap and water.

>

> Return to Top

>

> Toxicology of T-2

>

> LD50's by Route of Administration

>

> Test

> Organism Inhalation Intravenous Subcutaneous

Dermal

> Mouse 0.24-0.94 mg/kg 3.8 mg/kg 1.6-2.1 mg/kg >10 mg/kg

> Guinea pig 5749 mg.min.m-3

>

>

> Rat 2000 mg.min.m-3

>

>

> Pig <2.7 mg/kg 1.2 mg/kg

>

>

>

> Return to Top

>

>

> Chemical Properties

>

> Structure

>

> CA Name Trichothec-9-ene-3,4,8,15-tetrol,12,13-epoxy-, 4,15-

diacetate

> 8-(3-methylbutanoate), (3.alpha.,4.beta.,8.alpha.)-

>

> Trivial Names

>

> * Fusariotoxin T 2

> * Insariotoxin

> * Mycotoxin T 2

> * NSC 138780

> * T 2

> * T 2 mycotoxin

>

> Registry Number 21259-20-1

> RTECS Number YD0100000

> Molecular

> Formula C24 H34 O9

> Molecular

> weight 466.57

> Solubility Insoluble in water,

> soluble in lower alcohols and polar solvents including

>

> * methanol,

> * ethanol,

> * isopropanol

> * propylene glycol,

> * acetone,

> * ethyl acetate

> * chloroform,

> * dimethyl sulfoxide

>

> pKa in water Not applicable

> Complete synthesis None

>

> Return to Top

>

> Site of Action

>

> T-2 and most of the other trichothecene mycotoxins considered for

use

> as weapons act by inhibiting protein synthesis. They do this by

> reacting with components of the ribosomes: the structure within the

> cell where proteins are made. The specific site of action of T-2,

> which is a reaction with a critical site on the ribosomal RNA

(rRNA)

> is known.

>

> Protein synthesis is an essential function in all tissues, but

tissues

> where cells are actively and rapidly growing and dividing are very

> susceptible to the toxins. Susceptible tissues therefore include:

>

> the lining of the digestive tract, the wear and tear of the

digestive

> process is constantly being repaired;

>

> bone marrow, the site of the continuous formation of new red and

white

> blood cells;

>

> the lymph nodes, a key site in the immune system;

>

> the spleen, also a vital component of the immune system

>

> the liver, metabolically the most active tissue of the body.

>

> Tissues like the brain and muscle are less severely affected.

>

>

> Source

>

> Several species of the genus Fusarium synthesize the toxin. A

> definitive list is hard to construct because of the problems of

> identification of species within the genus.

>

> Fermentation of T-2 toxin can be very efficient with yields of

several

> grams of the toxin for every kilogram of substrate, even using

> relatively inefficient culture on a solid medium rather than liquid

> fermentation.

>

>

> Agent Properties

>

> Trichothecenes are different from most other potential weapons

toxins

> because they can act through the skin. The possibility of an attack

> has the advantage to the user of forcing the defender into

protective

> clothing. Trichothecenes are actually very effective blister

agents.

> The minimal dose of T-2 toxin required to produce skin injury is

about

> 400-fold lower than it is for mustard. Blistering and eye damage

are

> likely well below exposure to a lethal dose. Inhalation toxicity is

> comparable to that of mustard or ite.

>

> These toxins are relatively easy to manufacture. The producer

> organisms are robust and can be grown in large fermentation

vessels. A

> terrorist may be able to make a crude trichothecene preparation by

> practicing poor grain husbandry. The Fusarium species that make

> trichothecenes grow on staple cereals such as wheat and barley.

> Aflatoxin-producing fungi prefer oil-rich seed such as maize (Zea

> mays, Indian corn or corn in the US). Outbreaks of alimentary toxic

> aleukia (ATA) that killed thousands in an already devastated

> post-World War II Soviet Union had their origins in grains left

over

> winter in the fields under conditions ideal for trichothecene

> synthesis. These grains were scant gleanings that would have been

left

> for the birds in better days.

>

> The toxins would most likely be spread as an aerosol with the

yellow

> rain used in Indo-China being described as a sticky yellow liquid.

The

> fungi themselves could be used as an economic weapon against

> well-regulated agricultures, such as those of North America and

Europe

> where the appearance of the disease on any significant scale could

> trigger stringent responses including destruction of crops.

>

>

>

> Return to Top

> Terrorist Acquisition and Attempted Use.

>

> * None confirmed.

>

> Return to Top

> International Disease Classification Codes for T-2 Poisoning

Disease

> ICD-9-CM ICD-10

>

> Toxic effects of aflatoxins &

> other mycotoxins as food contaminants

>

> --------------------------------------------------------

>

> http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Satra.html

>

>

> Satratoxin H:

> essential data

>

> Symptoms and Treatment, Toxicity, Chemistry, Site of Action,

> Sources, Properties, Terrorist Interest, IDC Codes

>

> Symptoms, Treatment, Decontamination

> Syndrome Name Stachybotrotoxicosis

>

> Symptoms

>

> * burning and blistering of mouth and nose

> * a rash that becomes a moist dermatitis

> * nosebleeds

> * chest pain

> * pulmonary hemorrhage

> * hyperthermia (raised temperature)

> * headache

> * fatigue

> * diarrhea

>

> Onset of Symptoms Relatively slow (minutes to hours)

>

> Rapid diagnostic assay None

>

> Antidote None

>

> Supportive Care Removal of ingested toxins by treatment with

> adsorbents such as superactivated charcoal; treatment of symptoms

>

> Inactivation Decontamination with soap and water.

>

>

> Toxicology. Satratoxin H has an LD50 for mice of 1.0-1.4 mg/kg upon

> intraperitoneal injection. Otherwise, it is reported to be about

five

> times as toxic as T-2 toxin.

>

> More extensive toxicological information can be found by following

> this link.

>

>

> Chemical Properties

> Structure

>

> CA Name Spiro[5,9:16,18-dimethano-1H,3H,23H-[1,6,12]

> trioxacyclooctadecino[3,4-d]][1]benzopyran-17

> (18H),2'-oxirane]-3-14(9H)dione,6,7,16,16a,19a,22-

> hexahydro-25-hydroxy-9-[(1S)-1-hydroxyethyl]-16a,21-

> dimethyl,(2'R,4E,9R,10E,12Z,16R,16aS,18R,19aR23aR,25R)-

>

>

> Trivial Names

>

> * Satratoxin H

>

> Registry Number 53126-64-0

> RTECS Number

> Molecular

> Formula C29 H36 O9

> Molecular

> weight

> Solubility Insoluble in water,

> soluble in lower alcohols and polar solvents including

>

> * methanol,

> * ethanol,

> * isopropanol

> * propylene glycol,

> * acetone,

> * ethyl acetate

> * chloroform,

> * dimethyl sulfoxide

>

> pKa in water Not applicable

> Complete synthesis None

> Return to Top

> Site of Action

>

> Not known,but like most of the other trichothecene mycotoxins

> considered for use as weapons act by inhibiting protein synthesis

> affecting tissues where cells are actively and rapidly growing and

> dividing.

>

>

> Source

>

> Stachybotrys chartarum, also known as Stachybotrys atra and

> Stachybotrys alternans in older publications.

>

> Return to Top

> Agent Properties

>

> Unlike T-2 toxin, satratoxin H does not appear to be particularly

> effective as a blistering agent on the skin, but is effective

against

> moist tissues such as the mouth, nose, and throat.

>

> The producer organism grows readily in damp environments, such as

damp

> hay and has become recognized as a public health problem in houses

> that have become damp, e.g. through flooding, because it growth on

> cellulosic substrates such as the paper covering of wallboard.

>

> It may not be necessary to isolate toxins from cultures as the

spores

> and fragments of the fungal mass are themselves effective carriers

of

> the toxins.

>

> Terrorist Acquisition and Attempted Use.

>

> * None confirmed.

>

> Return to Top

> International Disease Classification Codes for Satratroxin H

Poisoning

> Disease ICD-9-CM ICD-10

>

> Toxic effects of aflatoxins &

> other mycotoxins as food contaminants

>

> ----------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

barb, I have become very sensitized to the burn from toxin-and have

had to throw away my belongings from 3 different contaminated places-

the spores are easier to wash away, but the toxin remains- burning

my skin, as some others on this group who are also sensitive will

attest to. I do not think that hazemat suits would work for me- I

have had numerouse experiences where putting on a top coat that was

contaminated went right through all the under layers to burn my

skin, and contaminate the other previously clean layers of clothes-.

Once I was in bed- with everything newly bought- and hrs spent

washing- only to have a friend cover me as I slept with a comforter

that had been in the old house that I had forgoten to throw out-I

awoke screaming with pain-from the burn and it took weeks to clean

up from it. This sort of thing has bedeviled my life for 3 years--

In , " barb1283 " <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> The other thing I found interesting about this article is list of

> symptoms for these two toxins. Skin blistering is mentioned.

This

> was for large doses as in warfare but in amounts we may encounter

in

> indoor mold problems it is easy to see where skin itchiness that

so

> many people describe might due due to toxins in the air/on the

> skin. Article states that tricothecenes are absorbed RIGHT

THROUGH

> THE SKIN, so wearing a mask and googles even if made to protect

from

> toxins would not protect you enough and so therefore the 'outfits'

> too. I thought that was to protect the clothing from being

> contaminated, so you could take off haz mat suit and dispose of

with

> rest of contaminated stuff but perhaps also meant to protect skin

> from absorbing toxins. Wow..it is very hard to protect yourself

> from these toxins!! Since I get blistering rash once in awhile

that

> I thought was coming from inside me and still do, since I itch

first

> and show no sign of skin irritation and it seems to 'bubble up

from

> underneath skin', the skin blistering description makes sense to

my

[Guest guest]

> >

> > http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/T2.html

> >

> >

> > T-2 Toxin:

> >

> > essential data

> >

> >

> > Symptoms, Treatment, Decontamination

> > Syndrome Name none

> >

> > Symptoms

> >

> > * skin irritation

> > * loss of function in:

> > o intestines,

> > o bone marrow,

> > o lymph nodes,

> > o spleen

> > o thymus

> > * Alimentary Toxic Aleukia (time course: 8 weeks with rapid

> onset

> > of symptoms)

> > * burning sensation in alimentary tract

> > * vomiting

> > * tachycardia

> > * leukopenia

> > * petechial hemorrhages with necrosis in skin

> > * internal hemorrhages

> >

> > Onset of Symptoms

> >

> > There is a fairly quick (<20 minutes) response similar to that

seen

> > with mustard (blistering of the skin and irritation of the eyes

and

> > throat). Symptoms of systemic poisoning appear relatively slowly

> > (>8-12 hours.)

> >

> > Rapid diagnostic assay

> >

> > None, but rapid and sensitive assays for the detection and

> monitoring

> > of trichothecenes in cereals are available. They may not be

readily

> > adaptable to human diagnostics.

> >

> > Antidote

> >

> > None

> >

> >

> > Supportive Care

> >

> > Removal of ingested toxins by treatment with adsorbents such as

> > superactivated charcoal; treatment of symptoms

> >

> >

> > Inactivation

> >

> > Decontamination with soap and water.

> >

> > Return to Top

> >

> > Toxicology of T-2

> >

> > LD50's by Route of Administration

> >

> > Test

> > Organism Inhalation Intravenous Subcutaneous

> Dermal

> > Mouse 0.24-0.94 mg/kg 3.8 mg/kg 1.6-2.1 mg/kg >10

mg/kg

> > Guinea pig 5749 mg.min.m-3

> >

> >

> > Rat 2000 mg.min.m-3

> >

> >

> > Pig <2.7 mg/kg 1.2 mg/kg

> >

> >

> >

> > Return to Top

> >

> >

> > Chemical Properties

> >

> > Structure

> >

> > CA Name Trichothec-9-ene-3,4,8,15-tetrol,12,13-epoxy-, 4,15-

> diacetate

> > 8-(3-methylbutanoate), (3.alpha.,4.beta.,8.alpha.)-

> >

> > Trivial Names

> >

> > * Fusariotoxin T 2

> > * Insariotoxin

> > * Mycotoxin T 2

> > * NSC 138780

> > * T 2

> > * T 2 mycotoxin

> >

> > Registry Number 21259-20-1

> > RTECS Number YD0100000

> > Molecular

> > Formula C24 H34 O9

> > Molecular

> > weight 466.57

> > Solubility Insoluble in water,

> > soluble in lower alcohols and polar solvents including

> >

> > * methanol,

> > * ethanol,

> > * isopropanol

> > * propylene glycol,

> > * acetone,

> > * ethyl acetate

> > * chloroform,

> > * dimethyl sulfoxide

> >

> > pKa in water Not applicable

> > Complete synthesis None

> >

> > Return to Top

> >

> > Site of Action

> >

> > T-2 and most of the other trichothecene mycotoxins considered

for

> use

> > as weapons act by inhibiting protein synthesis. They do this by

> > reacting with components of the ribosomes: the structure within

the

> > cell where proteins are made. The specific site of action of T-2,

> > which is a reaction with a critical site on the ribosomal RNA

> (rRNA)

> > is known.

> >

> > Protein synthesis is an essential function in all tissues, but

> tissues

> > where cells are actively and rapidly growing and dividing are

very

> > susceptible to the toxins. Susceptible tissues therefore include:

> >

> > the lining of the digestive tract, the wear and tear of the

> digestive

> > process is constantly being repaired;

> >

> > bone marrow, the site of the continuous formation of new red and

> white

> > blood cells;

> >

> > the lymph nodes, a key site in the immune system;

> >

> > the spleen, also a vital component of the immune system

> >

> > the liver, metabolically the most active tissue of the body.

> >

> > Tissues like the brain and muscle are less severely affected.

> >

> >

> > Source

> >

> > Several species of the genus Fusarium synthesize the toxin. A

> > definitive list is hard to construct because of the problems of

> > identification of species within the genus.

> >

> > Fermentation of T-2 toxin can be very efficient with yields of

> several

> > grams of the toxin for every kilogram of substrate, even using

> > relatively inefficient culture on a solid medium rather than

liquid

> > fermentation.

> >

> >

> > Agent Properties

> >

> > Trichothecenes are different from most other potential weapons

> toxins

> > because they can act through the skin. The possibility of an

attack

> > has the advantage to the user of forcing the defender into

> protective

> > clothing. Trichothecenes are actually very effective blister

> agents.

> > The minimal dose of T-2 toxin required to produce skin injury is

> about

> > 400-fold lower than it is for mustard. Blistering and eye damage

> are

> > likely well below exposure to a lethal dose. Inhalation toxicity

is

> > comparable to that of mustard or ite.

> >

> > These toxins are relatively easy to manufacture. The producer

> > organisms are robust and can be grown in large fermentation

> vessels. A

> > terrorist may be able to make a crude trichothecene preparation

by

> > practicing poor grain husbandry. The Fusarium species that make

> > trichothecenes grow on staple cereals such as wheat and barley.

> > Aflatoxin-producing fungi prefer oil-rich seed such as maize (Zea

> > mays, Indian corn or corn in the US). Outbreaks of alimentary

toxic

> > aleukia (ATA) that killed thousands in an already devastated

> > post-World War II Soviet Union had their origins in grains left

> over

> > winter in the fields under conditions ideal for trichothecene

> > synthesis. These grains were scant gleanings that would have

been

> left

> > for the birds in better days.

> >

> > The toxins would most likely be spread as an aerosol with the

> yellow

> > rain used in Indo-China being described as a sticky yellow

liquid.

> The

> > fungi themselves could be used as an economic weapon against

> > well-regulated agricultures, such as those of North America and

> Europe

> > where the appearance of the disease on any significant scale

could

> > trigger stringent responses including destruction of crops.

> >

> >

> >

> > Return to Top

> > Terrorist Acquisition and Attempted Use.

> >

> > * None confirmed.

> >

> > Return to Top

> > International Disease Classification Codes for T-2 Poisoning

> Disease

> > ICD-9-CM ICD-10

> >

> > Toxic effects of aflatoxins &

> > other mycotoxins as food contaminants

> >

> > --------------------------------------------------------

> >

> > http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Satra.html

> >

> >

> > Satratoxin H:

> > essential data

> >

> > Symptoms and Treatment, Toxicity, Chemistry, Site of Action,

> > Sources, Properties, Terrorist Interest, IDC Codes

> >

> > Symptoms, Treatment, Decontamination

> > Syndrome Name Stachybotrotoxicosis

> >

> > Symptoms

> >

> > * burning and blistering of mouth and nose

> > * a rash that becomes a moist dermatitis

> > * nosebleeds

> > * chest pain

> > * pulmonary hemorrhage

> > * hyperthermia (raised temperature)

> > * headache

> > * fatigue

> > * diarrhea

> >

> > Onset of Symptoms Relatively slow (minutes to hours)

> >

> > Rapid diagnostic assay None

> >

> > Antidote None

> >

> > Supportive Care Removal of ingested toxins by treatment with

> > adsorbents such as superactivated charcoal; treatment of symptoms

> >

> > Inactivation Decontamination with soap and water.

> >

> >

> > Toxicology. Satratoxin H has an LD50 for mice of 1.0-1.4 mg/kg

upon

> > intraperitoneal injection. Otherwise, it is reported to be about

> five

> > times as toxic as T-2 toxin.

> >

> > More extensive toxicological information can be found by

following

> > this link.

> >

> >

> > Chemical Properties

> > Structure

> >

> > CA Name Spiro[5,9:16,18-dimethano-1H,3H,23H-[1,6,12]

> > trioxacyclooctadecino[3,4-d]][1]benzopyran-17

> > (18H),2'-oxirane]-3-14(9H)dione,6,7,16,16a,19a,22-

> > hexahydro-25-hydroxy-9-[(1S)-1-hydroxyethyl]-16a,21-

> > dimethyl,(2'R,4E,9R,10E,12Z,16R,16aS,18R,19aR23aR,25R)-

> >

> >

> > Trivial Names

> >

> > * Satratoxin H

> >

> > Registry Number 53126-64-0

> > RTECS Number

> > Molecular

> > Formula C29 H36 O9

> > Molecular

> > weight

> > Solubility Insoluble in water,

> > soluble in lower alcohols and polar solvents including

> >

> > * methanol,

> > * ethanol,

> > * isopropanol

> > * propylene glycol,

> > * acetone,

> > * ethyl acetate

> > * chloroform,

> > * dimethyl sulfoxide

> >

> > pKa in water Not applicable

> > Complete synthesis None

> > Return to Top

> > Site of Action

> >

> > Not known,but like most of the other trichothecene mycotoxins

> > considered for use as weapons act by inhibiting protein synthesis

> > affecting tissues where cells are actively and rapidly growing

and

> > dividing.

> >

> >

> > Source

> >

> > Stachybotrys chartarum, also known as Stachybotrys atra and

> > Stachybotrys alternans in older publications.

> >

> > Return to Top

> > Agent Properties

> >

> > Unlike T-2 toxin, satratoxin H does not appear to be particularly

> > effective as a blistering agent on the skin, but is effective

> against

> > moist tissues such as the mouth, nose, and throat.

> >

> > The producer organism grows readily in damp environments, such

as

> damp

> > hay and has become recognized as a public health problem in

houses

> > that have become damp, e.g. through flooding, because it growth

on

> > cellulosic substrates such as the paper covering of wallboard.

> >

> > It may not be necessary to isolate toxins from cultures as the

> spores

> > and fragments of the fungal mass are themselves effective

carriers

> of

> > the toxins.

> >

> > Terrorist Acquisition and Attempted Use.

> >

> > * None confirmed.

> >

> > Return to Top

> > International Disease Classification Codes for Satratroxin H

> Poisoning

> > Disease ICD-9-CM ICD-10

> >

> > Toxic effects of aflatoxins &

> > other mycotoxins as food contaminants

> >

> > ----------------------------------

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Has anyone ever gotten a large, red splotchy rash on their (very) upper

chest right over the esophagus?

This happened to me many, many times.. it would also feel hot and infected..

I also have reflux, which when i was in moldapt had gotten VERY very bad at

times, with the inability to sleep/swallow/drink anything and the bouts of

inhaling burning stomach acid.. scarring..

After that I was in really terrible shape for a very, very long time.. you

DON'T want to hear the gory details.. It sounded similar to the pink mold

story..

I also had my gall bladder removed and they said it was full of black

sludge...

Some mold in apt was tested for trichothecenes (stachy variety) and yes,

they were toxic.. But didn't have access to the high volume air sampling

equip. so we had to test pieces of the mold from basement and later, from

inside the walls instead..

[Guest guest]

I just noticed in paper above.. again, it says (animal studies)

****INHALATION ROUTE IS THE MOST TOXIC****

[Guest guest]

It's such a nightmare. Toxic illness has

strongly affected my skin. I don't experience as

much burning but my skin blisters and rashes

easily. I'm constantly finding a new rash, and

my skin itches most of the time.

--- carondeen <kdeanstudios@...> wrote:

> barb, I have become very sensitized to the burn

> from

[Guest guest]

I have been rashing alot you have probably read.

One place or another seems to be 'in vogue' for

awhile. At first it was the inside of my wrists,

both or one, back and forth, off an on. Now it

inside of elbow, off and on. I had one on my

face a few months ago. It is always on thin

delicate skin areas.

--- LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> Has anyone ever gotten a large, red splotchy

> rash on their (very) upper

> chest right over the esophagus?

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have been experiencing alot of very itchy skin

in hotel room... really more than I was at home

and am wondering if it is the moldy a/c unit

here. That is one reason I was hesitant to just

run out of my house as if just anywhere else

would be better, I ran to a moldy hotel. Clean

one otherwise but very moldy a/c units and in a

small room that puts you pretty close to mold.

It's cost me another small fortune to learn all

about window a/c units. I didn't have one at

home so it didn't concern me when I saw it in

hotel room, so a couple thousand dollar lesson

for me again.

Periodically I open up windows since air is

fairly cool and dry right now and open door up

and let air blow through room to air it out and

notice that my skin stops itching for this

ritual. However within about an hour of closing

windows up again, itching returns!!!

I think I have located another place which looks

promising. It has central heat and air, not a

window a/c unit, and all hard floors, furnished

but not much stuffed furniture, just one small

sofa and of course bed, located near my job so

hoping they will agree to short lease for me.

My garage is outside of air envelope of house and

so tempted to clean out garage and put a futon

and tv and refrigerator in there but it probably

would mean coming and going from house too much,

but hate to spend this money, need it for health

care...all the uncovered things for mold illness.

--- bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

> It's such a nightmare. Toxic illness has

> strongly affected my skin. I don't experience

> as

[Guest guest]

AMEN--BOY, DON'T I KNOW THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: [] Re: T-2 toxin and Satratoxin /blistering skin

I just noticed in paper above.. again, it says (animal studies)

****INHALATION ROUTE IS THE MOST TOXIC****

[Guest guest]

My THEORY at this point is sort of that with allergic reactions, the skin

crawling itchiness feeling is actually a fairly early, low-level kind of

reaction.

When the itchiness is replaced by other reactions.. then you are really

getting sick.. Then you get the headaches, rining ears, fatigue, nausea,

smell and light sensitivity, the skin burning and the other signs of what I

think ends up becoming permanent damage..

Later on, IF you get better, maddening as it is, the 'itchy' reaction to

mold (as opposed to the other stuff) is perhaps welcomed as it means you are

perhaps getting better?

I used to get the skin crawly reaction to mold a very very long time ago,

but then as I got sicker, it got rare and eventually, disappeared.. instead

I would get sick in lots of other ways.. But now its coming back when I get

exposed to non-old-apartment molds (I still get the old reactions when I get

exposed to a lot of my old stuff, which I think still has stachy mycotoxins

in it) as I think I have gotten my overall toxicity level down qute a bit..

I think that means that I am getting better now..

As I get better, I think I am beginning to be able to feel somewhat where

the remaining issues are.. I think I might still have some kind of a yeast

issue inside of me.. How would I find out if this is true?

[Guest guest]

I think you're on to something. I have just begun the

itchy, crawly skin sensations again - I have been

wearing an N95 respirator when in known bad

environments. The skin sensation is probably when I am

in a bad environment without protection and reacting-

what do you think?

[Guest guest]

Well, it is GOOD to have SOME reaction to mold,

otherwise we wouldn't get away from it.

--- LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> My THEORY at this point is sort of that with

> allergic reactions, the skin

> crawling itchiness feeling is actually a fairly

>

[Guest guest]

Regarding the 'hazmat' suits - they are made of Tyvek and do not breathe. The

remediation personnel who wore these at my house had to take frequent breaks

outside where they partially unzipped the suits for air. I've worn them a few

times and would get very hot in them. I don't think they are a good long-term

avoidance solution.

[Guest guest]

Where do they get oxygen? Do they have tanks?

I'm asking that because if there is one thing all the last years

scientific research has taught us its that filtered air still has a

lot of toxins in it and they are the most toxic by weight on the

smallest particles. If a filter blocked them out ot would also not let

air through..

No amount of filtration is going to make a toxic environment safe..

[Guest guest]

Re: hazmat suits/not breathable.

Anything that is comfortable will let in toxins. You just have to

limit the time you need to be in them. No they would not make good

long term soluation. Nothing but remediating does.

Respirators are terribly uncomfortable. It makes my face hurt for one

thing and it puts too much a strain on my lungs that I can hardly get

a breath when I am standing still. Therefore, I wear a soft charcoal

mask and over the top I put a N95 folding particle mask. That's all I

can take. I cannot smell the mustiness of house through those. I

cannot smell the mustiness of house actually through the N95 alone,

but I add the charcoal filter to it since I know the N95 is not enough

for toxins.

The mustiness in house is disappearing now that cold air has come in.

It makes it tempting to want to move back, but I will stay out until I

remediate and clean up.

--- In , Sue ston <thecanaries@...>

wrote:

>

> Regarding the 'hazmat' suits - they are made of Tyvek and do not

breathe. The remediation personnel who wore these at my house had to

take frequent breaks outside where they partially unzipped the suits

for air. I've worn them a few times and would get very hot in them.

I don't think they are a good long-term avoidance solution.

[Guest guest]

I don't think they have tanks. I guess they just

filter out LOTS of particles and figure then they

are cutting the exposure to something tolerable.

Don't know how respirators work. However the

filters are VERY tight. I can hardly pull air

through them but I have lung inflamation so

probably not as strong as healthy people who go

in and do that sort of work.

--- LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

> Where do they get oxygen? Do they have tanks?

>

> I'm asking that because if there is one thing

> all the last years

> scientific research has taught us its that

> filtered air still has a

> lot of toxins in it and they are the most toxic

> by weight on the

> smallest particles. If a filter blocked them

> out ot would also not let

> air through..

>

> No amount of filtration is going to make a

> toxic environment safe..

>

>

[Guest guest]

They do filter out a lot, but as we now know, the smallest particles

are the most toxic, by weight.. so even if a filter filters out 90%

of the mass of the particles, the protein inhibition capability (the

toxicity) of whats left, is still much higher than what that would

make most people think..

In this paper:

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/1/114

They analyze the relative toxicity of the fitered air.. by particle

size.. Its pretty illuminative and it explains why filters don't make

people well, why they just reduce the toxicity somewhat, not

elimiminate it.

THAT IS AN IMPORTANT PAPER, EVERYONE SHOULD READ IT...

[Guest guest]

We will never live in a toxic-free world so

reducing toxic exposure is what is it all about,

so why the discourse on 'that only reduces' but

does not eliminate? We started breathing in

toxins, including mycotoxins I'm sure when we

took our first breath.

--- LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote:

Its pretty illuminative and it explains

> why filters don't make

> people well, why they just reduce the toxicity

> somewhat, not

> elimiminate it.

>

> THAT IS AN IMPORTANT PAPER, EVERYONE SHOULD

> READ IT...

>

>

[Guest guest]

Why does this logic make me angry?

Because there is a war going on, and it's not just an ideological war, and

WE are the collateral damage..

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

" Policy consequences

Regulatory agencies such as the Environmental Protection

Agency<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Protection_Agency>(EPA),

the Food

and Drug

Administration<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration>(FDA),

and the Nuclear

Regulatory

Commission<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Regulatory_Commission>(NRC)

use a threshold

model<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Threshold_model & action=edit>for

non-

carcinogens <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen>, and a linear

no-threshold model

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model>for

carcinogens (including radiation). In the threshold model, anything

above a certain dose is considered dangerous, and anything below it safe. In

the linear model, there is no dosage that has no risk of causing

cancer. Changing

to a hormesis model would likely change exposure standards for these toxins

in air <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air>,

water<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water>,

food <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food> and

soil<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil>,

making the standards less strict. As a result, costs of implementing

environmental regulations and cleanup/remediation activities could be

lowered. Wider use of the hormesis model would affect how

scientists<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientist>design and conduct

studies and the selection of statistical

models <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_model> that estimate risk. "

The problem with this attitude is that these exposures are, I think we all

agree, CUMULATIVE...

[Guest guest]

Everyone.. please accept my apology.. I am just getting too worked up and

reacting and not thinking..

I've been spending too much time reading the news and being a bit paranoid

about the political and economic situations in this country and not enough

time thinking about how people might interpret what I am writing...

To many people this is probably just crazy talk, I'm sorry.. basically, I am

just worried sick that powerful interests will turn the US into just another

raped and burned third world country.. with barely a second thought..

[Guest guest]

And a Big Fat AMEN to this comment...

LiveSimply <quackadillian@...> wrote: Why does this logic make me

angry?

Because there is a war going on, and it's not just an ideological war, and

WE are the collateral damage..

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

" Policy consequences

Regulatory agencies such as the Environmental Protection

Agency<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Protection_Agency>(EPA),

the Food

and Drug

Administration<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration>(FDA),

and the Nuclear

Regulatory

Commission<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Regulatory_Commission>(NRC)

use a threshold

model<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Threshold_model & action=edit>for

non-

carcinogens <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen>, and a linear

no-threshold model

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_no-threshold_model>for

carcinogens (including radiation). In the threshold model, anything

above a certain dose is considered dangerous, and anything below it safe. In

the linear model, there is no dosage that has no risk of causing

cancer. Changing

to a hormesis model would likely change exposure standards for these toxins

in air <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air>,

water<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water>,

food <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food> and

soil<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil>,

making the standards less strict. As a result, costs of implementing

environmental regulations and cleanup/remediation activities could be

lowered. Wider use of the hormesis model would affect how

scientists<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientist>design and conduct

studies and the selection of statistical

models <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_model> that estimate risk. "

The problem with this attitude is that these exposures are, I think we all

agree, CUMULATIVE...