Re: Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

September 12, 2006

Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not fully

understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism is CLaudia

s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other side of the

coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can find her

presenation.

If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury it will be

...

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> From: who <jeaninem660@...>

> Reply-

>

> Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

>

> (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can have

> airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and caughing

> without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading that

> caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to rid it

> of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to sensativity

> to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so misdiagnosed.

> heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but early

> readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

> chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it really

> should be.because people can have this reaction without haveing mcs

> and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins because

> of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the lung

> symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from what

> I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it actually

> describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the main thing

> to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses, I

> really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs and wipe

> all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very open

> mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant untrain

> theriself from what they learned long

> ago.

>

>>

>

>> -- In , " who " <jeaninem660@>

>> wrote:

>>>

>>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps seperate the

>> lung

>>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see if I

>> can

>>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started with

> my

>>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy exposure. I

>> dont

>>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article listed

> it

>> as

>>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was COPD,

> but

>> will

>>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with exsertion?

> this

>> is

>>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't it? I

>> only

>>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

>>> , madeskv@ wrote:

>>>>

>>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes COPD as

> a

>>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

>>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

>>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut and

>> paste it

>>> into a browser window.

>>>>

>>>> This article notification service provided by

>> http://www.medscape.com

>>>>

>>>

>>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

September 12, 2006

-Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the end of

my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in with the

mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with it,

I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle about

it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought about

the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well be. it

was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still felt

better when getting out but than it changed to haveing withdrawels.--

In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@...> wrote:

>

> Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not fully

> understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism is

CLaudia

> s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

>

> Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other side of

the

> coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

>

> She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can find

her

> presenation.

>

> If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury it

will be

> ...

>

> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

>

> > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> > From: who <jeaninem660@...>

> > Reply-

> >

> > Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

> >

> > (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> > hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> > Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can have

> > airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

caughing

> > without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading that

> > caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to rid

it

> > of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

sensativity

> > to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

misdiagnosed.

> > heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but early

> > readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

> > chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

really

> > should be.because people can have this reaction without haveing

mcs

> > and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

because

> > of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the lung

> > symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from what

> > I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

actually

> > describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the main

thing

> > to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses, I

> > really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs and

wipe

> > all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very open

> > mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

untrain

> > theriself from what they learned long

> > ago.

> >

> >>

> >

> >> -- In , " who " <jeaninem660@>

> >> wrote:

> >>>

> >>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps seperate

the

> >> lung

> >>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see if I

> >> can

> >>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started with

> > my

> >>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy exposure. I

> >> dont

> >>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article listed

> > it

> >> as

> >>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was COPD,

> > but

> >> will

> >>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with exsertion?

> > this

> >> is

> >>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't it?

I

> >> only

> >>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

> >>> , madeskv@ wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes COPD as

> > a

> >>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

> >>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

> >>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut and

> >> paste it

> >>> into a browser window.

> >>>>

> >>>> This article notification service provided by

> >> http://www.medscape.com

> >>>>

> >>>

> >>

> >

> > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> >

September 12, 2006

--to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the process and

MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they both have

there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being from

exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on amounts

exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds up

are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just one

toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or more

toxins triggering something certain or different that causes mcss. if

someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a more

logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the factors of

liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

, " who " <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

>

> -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the end

of

> my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in with

the

> mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with

it,

> I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle

about

> it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought about

> the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well be.

it

> was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

> breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still felt

> better when getting out but than it changed to haveing withdrawels.-

-

> In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

> >

> > Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not

fully

> > understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism is

> CLaudia

> > s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

> >

> > Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other side

of

> the

> > coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

> >

> > She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can find

> her

> > presenation.

> >

> > If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury it

> will be

> > ...

> >

> > On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> >

> > > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> > > From: who <jeaninem660@>

> > > Reply-

> > >

> > > Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

> > >

> > > (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> > > hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> > > Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can have

> > > airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

> caughing

> > > without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading that

> > > caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to

rid

> it

> > > of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

> sensativity

> > > to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

> misdiagnosed.

> > > heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but early

> > > readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

> > > chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

> really

> > > should be.because people can have this reaction without haveing

> mcs

> > > and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

> because

> > > of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the lung

> > > symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from

what

> > > I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

> actually

> > > describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the main

> thing

> > > to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses, I

> > > really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs and

> wipe

> > > all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very

open

> > > mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

> untrain

> > > theriself from what they learned long

> > > ago.

> > >

> > >>

> > >

> > >> -- In , " who " <jeaninem660@>

> > >> wrote:

> > >>>

> > >>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps seperate

> the

> > >> lung

> > >>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see

if I

> > >> can

> > >>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started

with

> > > my

> > >>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

exposure. I

> > >> dont

> > >>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article

listed

> > > it

> > >> as

> > >>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was COPD,

> > > but

> > >> will

> > >>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with exsertion?

> > > this

> > >> is

> > >>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't

it?

> I

> > >> only

> > >>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

> > >>> , madeskv@ wrote:

> > >>>>

> > >>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes COPD

as

> > > a

> > >>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

> > >>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

> > >>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut and

> > >> paste it

> > >>> into a browser window.

> > >>>>

> > >>>> This article notification service provided by

> > >> http://www.medscape.com

> > >>>>

> > >>>

> > >>

> > >

> > > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> > >

September 12, 2006

--Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are sensative

to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just wondering if

mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone or if

its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other

toxins.

I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather after

TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones you

were exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc.

example- if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a mixture

of formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only to

formalin but to anything containing ethanol or

formalgahide.

- In , " who "

<jeaninem660@...> wrote:

>

> --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the process

and

> MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they both

have

> there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being from

> exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on amounts

> exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds up

> are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just one

> toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

more

> toxins triggering something certain or different that causes mcss.

if

> someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a more

> logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

> derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the factors of

> liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

> , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> >

> > -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the end

> of

> > my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in with

> the

> > mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with

> it,

> > I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle

> about

> > it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

about

> > the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well be.

> it

> > was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

> > breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still felt

> > better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

withdrawels.-

> -

> > In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not

> fully

> > > understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism

is

> > CLaudia

> > > s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

> > >

> > > Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

side

> of

> > the

> > > coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

> > >

> > > She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can

find

> > her

> > > presenation.

> > >

> > > If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury

it

> > will be

> > > ...

> > >

> > > On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> > >

> > > > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> > > > From: who <jeaninem660@>

> > > > Reply-

> > > >

> > > > Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering

to

> > > >

> > > > (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> > > > hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> > > > Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can

have

> > > > airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

> > caughing

> > > > without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading

that

> > > > caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to

> rid

> > it

> > > > of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

> > sensativity

> > > > to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

> > misdiagnosed.

> > > > heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

early

> > > > readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

> > > > chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

> > really

> > > > should be.because people can have this reaction without

haveing

> > mcs

> > > > and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

> > because

> > > > of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the

lung

> > > > symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from

> what

> > > > I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

> > actually

> > > > describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the

main

> > thing

> > > > to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses,

I

> > > > really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs

and

> > wipe

> > > > all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very

> open

> > > > mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

> > untrain

> > > > theriself from what they learned long

> > > > ago.

> > > >

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > >> -- In , " who "

<jeaninem660@>

> > > >> wrote:

> > > >>>

> > > >>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

seperate

> > the

> > > >> lung

> > > >>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see

> if I

> > > >> can

> > > >>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started

> with

> > > > my

> > > >>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

> exposure. I

> > > >> dont

> > > >>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article

> listed

> > > > it

> > > >> as

> > > >>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was

COPD,

> > > > but

> > > >> will

> > > >>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

exsertion?

> > > > this

> > > >> is

> > > >>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't

> it?

> > I

> > > >> only

> > > >>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

> > > >>> , madeskv@ wrote:

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes

COPD

> as

> > > > a

> > > >>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

> > > >>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

> > > >>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut

and

> > > >> paste it

> > > >>> into a browser window.

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>> This article notification service provided by

> > > >> http://www.medscape.com

> > > >>>>

> > > >>>

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> > > >

September 13, 2006

The posts below are a real-life demonstration of how we desperately

want precision in descriptions and terms and how we put great effort

and enegry to achieve it. Read them and see how everyone is learning

and fine-tuning their understanding.

That said, there is one term that is becoming disfunctional: TOXIN.

We tend to use it as a generic term for anything " chemical " that

causes problems the experts cannot (or will not) diagnose; as does

the sister term of " mycotoxin " which are those toxins generated by

mold. Public health definitions of toxic are based on regulations.

Specific known substances above permissible exposure levels based

upon the most common response of a large group of people. Substances

that don't meet their definition are not " toxins. "

However, we all know that other substances affect us. Although they

may not be generally recognized as " toxic " their effect on us may be

" toxic. "

Where the discussion is becoming confusing and perhaps an obstacle to

understanding is in the context of MCS and 's TILT.

Toxicology is well developed and understood but it is does not

include all phenomena. Especially for small groups of people and

individuals.

TILT (toxicant induced loss of tolerance) has been developed to

address more of the issues that toxicology does not. In fact, TILT is

being postitioned as an emerging " theory of disease " alongside

infection, immune disfunction and cancer.

The loss of tolerance can occur from a single exposure to a toxin

(specific exposure above regulatory levels, usually short duration)

or a number of toxic or even non-toxic exposures (below regulatory

levels, or non-regulated such as perfume and other fragrances)

occuring over a period of time. Low level, long term exposures.

Two very different phenomena. One is short, noticeable and an effort

may be made to escape. The other is long-term, not usually noticed

until after tolerance is lost, which can make it more harmful because

it isn't strong enough to force us to escape (thus stopping the

exposure). " Oh it can't be that bad " is a typical response. So we

stay and the harm continues and the lack of tolerance can increase to

exquisitely low exposures below the detection limit of our best

instruments. Thus the experts say " Nothing here to cause this

illness. "

Once the tolerance is lost, it is not to just that substance or even

just those that are similar; but to any of a variety of exposure

sources that happen to fit that individual's genetic, health and

experience profile. So the specifics are different for each of us.

Think of the anology of the straw that broke the camels back. It

wasn't that specific straw that was responsible, but the whole load

over a long period of time. Further, once the back is broken,

removing just that straw isn't enough. The pain is too great to carry

the original load. The load has to be removed. How much has to be

removed? It depends on each camel. And, you can't change what the

camel is carrying. Lead or feathers, the weight is too much.

Mycotoxins are a part of all toxins, so they could be included as an

agent that creates a loss of tolerance. Or, a different chemical that

is not considered a toxin could be the trigger that results in a loss

of tolerance, including to mycotoxins. In one sense it doesn't make

any difference which came first, the chicken or the egg. Either way

we are left with " scrambled " rather than " over easy. "

This is a gross oversimplification of MCS and TILT so I hope it

doesn't mislead or further confuse.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> --Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are sensative

> to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

> diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

> several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just wondering if

> mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone or if

> its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other toxins.

>

> I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather after

> TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones you were

> exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc. example-

> if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a mixture of

> formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only to

> formalin but to anything containing ethanol or formalgahide.

>

> - In , " who "

> <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

> >

> > --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the process

> and

> > MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they both

> have

> > there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being from

> > exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on amounts

> > exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds up

> > are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just one

> > toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

> more

> > toxins triggering something certain or different that causes mcss.

> if

> > someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a more

> > logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

> > derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the factors of

> > liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

> > , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> > >

> > > -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the end

> > of

> > > my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in with

> > the

> > > mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with

> > it,

> > > I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle

> > about

> > > it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

> about

> > > the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well be.

> > it

> > > was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

> > > breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still felt

> > > better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

> withdrawels.-

> > -

> > > In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not

> > fully

> > > > understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism

> is

> > > CLaudia

> > > > s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

> > > >

> > > > Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

> side

> > of

> > > the

> > > > coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

> > > >

> > > > She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can

> find

> > > her

> > > > presenation.

> > > >

> > > > If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury

> it

> > > will be

> > > > ...

> > > >

> > > > On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> > > > > From: who <jeaninem660@>

> > > > > Reply-

> > > > >

> > > > > Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering

> to

> > > > >

> > > > > (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> > > > > hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> > > > > Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can

> have

> > > > > airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

> > > caughing

> > > > > without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading

> that

> > > > > caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to

> > rid

> > > it

> > > > > of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

> > > sensativity

> > > > > to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

> > > misdiagnosed.

> > > > > heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

> early

> > > > > readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

> > > > > chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

> > > really

> > > > > should be.because people can have this reaction without

> haveing

> > > mcs

> > > > > and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

> > > because

> > > > > of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the

> lung

> > > > > symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from

> > what

> > > > > I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

> > > actually

> > > > > describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the

> main

> > > thing

> > > > > to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses,

> I

> > > > > really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs

> and

> > > wipe

> > > > > all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very

> > open

> > > > > mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

> > > untrain

> > > > > theriself from what they learned long

> > > > > ago.

> > > > >

> > > > >>

> > > > >

> > > > >> -- In , " who "

> <jeaninem660@>

> > > > >> wrote:

> > > > >>>

> > > > >>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

> seperate

> > > the

> > > > >> lung

> > > > >>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see

> > if I

> > > > >> can

> > > > >>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started

> > with

> > > > > my

> > > > >>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

> > exposure. I

> > > > >> dont

> > > > >>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article

> > listed

> > > > > it

> > > > >> as

> > > > >>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was

> COPD,

> > > > > but

> > > > >> will

> > > > >>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

> exsertion?

> > > > > this

> > > > >> is

> > > > >>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't

> > it?

> > > I

> > > > >> only

> > > > >>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

> > > > >>> , madeskv@ wrote:

> > > > >>>>

> > > > >>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes

> COPD

> > as

> > > > > a

> > > > >>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

> > > > >>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

> > > > >>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut

> and

> > > > >> paste it

> > > > >>> into a browser window.

> > > > >>>>

> > > > >>>> This article notification service provided by

> > > > >> http://www.medscape.com

> > > > >>>>

> > > > >>>

> > > > >>

> > > > >

> > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> > > > >

September 13, 2006

I do no tthink that advocated " withdrawal " symptoms. I beleive in

my interpreation of her theory is that instead of *craving* something the

barin avoids it.

The withdrawal could be your body's way to try and detox and if you are

familiar with detox protocols...they can be brutual at times.

I am curious...you mentioned " special mcs testing " what exactly where

these tests?

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:14:07 -0000

> From: who <jeaninem660@...>

> Reply-

>

> Subject: [] Re: Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

>

> -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the end of

> my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in with the

> mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with it,

> I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle about

> it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought about

> the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well be. it

> was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

> breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still felt

> better when getting out but than it changed to haveing withdrawels.--

> In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@...> wrote:

>>

>> Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not fully

>> understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism is

> CLaudia

>> s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

>>

>> Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other side of

> the

>> coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

>>

>> She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can find

> her

>> presenation.

>>

>> If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury it

> will be

>> ...

>>

>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

>>

>>> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

>>> From: who <jeaninem660@...>

>>> Reply-

>>>

>>> Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

>>>

>>> (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

>>> hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

>>> Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can have

>>> airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

> caughing

>>> without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading that

>>> caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to rid

> it

>>> of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

> sensativity

>>> to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

> misdiagnosed.

>>> heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but early

>>> readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

>>> chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

> really

>>> should be.because people can have this reaction without haveing

> mcs

>>> and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

> because

>>> of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the lung

>>> symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from what

>>> I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

> actually

>>> describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the main

> thing

>>> to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses, I

>>> really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs and

> wipe

>>> all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very open

>>> mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

> untrain

>>> theriself from what they learned long

>>> ago.

>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>> -- In , " who " <jeaninem660@>

>>>> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps seperate

> the

>>>> lung

>>>>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see if I

>>>> can

>>>>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started with

>>> my

>>>>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy exposure. I

>>>> dont

>>>>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article listed

>>> it

>>>> as

>>>>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was COPD,

>>> but

>>>> will

>>>>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with exsertion?

>>> this

>>>> is

>>>>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't it?

> I

>>>> only

>>>>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

>>>>> , madeskv@ wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes COPD as

>>> a

>>>>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

>>>>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut and

>>>> paste it

>>>>> into a browser window.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> This article notification service provided by

>>>> http://www.medscape.com

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>>>

September 13, 2006

If I can recall my nightmare aka organic or as I refrerred to it as

orgasmic (you can extrapolate why) chemistry, there are 2 classifications

of chemicals??? Aromatic and aliphatic.

From all the literature I have read it is either 1 massive or over a

period of time exposure/s. Once the system has been compromised and not

functioning t would follow suit that you would become " reactive " to others

chemicals, toxins etc.

Every persons immune system is operating at different levels and there for

one can possibly never expand into other classes of chemicals. THen again

if one is sick and does not understand that they have a reaction to

chemiclas/toxins/molds etc., and they keep getting exposed the body will

reach a saturation point.

My dr explained it this way. Think of an onion wiht the various

layers...you get so overloaded that you cease to notice additional

reactions. Only AFTER you start removing recantants do you *discover* oh,

I have a *NEW* trigger...it's not NEW it's been there but you were on such

a HIGH overload you just didnt notice. THats when the foodallergies start

coming in, etc.

MCS does not mean only ONE chemcial...as I said its a " CATCH ALL " phase to

explain reactions to so called everyday SAFE products, chemiclas etc.

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:47:07 -0000

> From: who <jeaninem660@...>

> Reply-

>

> Subject: [] Re: Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

>

> --Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are sensative

> to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

> diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

> several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just wondering if

> mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone or if

> its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other

> toxins.

> I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather after

> TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones you

> were exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc.

> example- if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a mixture

> of formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only to

> formalin but to anything containing ethanol or

> formalgahide.

>

> - In , " who "

> <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

>>

>> --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the process

> and

>> MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they both

> have

>> there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being from

>> exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on amounts

>> exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds up

>> are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just one

>> toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

> more

>> toxins triggering something certain or different that causes mcss.

> if

>> someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a more

>> logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

>> derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the factors of

>> liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

>> , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

>>>

>>> -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the end

>> of

>>> my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in with

>> the

>>> mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with

>> it,

>>> I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle

>> about

>>> it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

> about

>>> the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well be.

>> it

>>> was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

>>> breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still felt

>>> better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

> withdrawels.-

>> -

>>> In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not

>> fully

>>>> understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism

> is

>>> CLaudia

>>>> s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

>>>>

>>>> Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

> side

>> of

>>> the

>>>> coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

>>>>

>>>> She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can

> find

>>> her

>>>> presenation.

>>>>

>>>> If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury

> it

>>> will be

>>>> ...

>>>>

>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

>>>>> From: who <jeaninem660@>

>>>>> Reply-

>>>>>

>>>>> Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering

> to

>>>>>

>>>>> (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

>>>>> hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

>>>>> Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can

> have

>>>>> airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

>>> caughing

>>>>> without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading

> that

>>>>> caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to

>> rid

>>> it

>>>>> of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

>>> sensativity

>>>>> to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

>>> misdiagnosed.

>>>>> heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

> early

>>>>> readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

>>>>> chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

>>> really

>>>>> should be.because people can have this reaction without

> haveing

>>> mcs

>>>>> and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

>>> because

>>>>> of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the

> lung

>>>>> symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from

>> what

>>>>> I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

>>> actually

>>>>> describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the

> main

>>> thing

>>>>> to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses,

> I

>>>>> really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs

> and

>>> wipe

>>>>> all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very

>> open

>>>>> mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

>>> untrain

>>>>> theriself from what they learned long

>>>>> ago.

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> -- In , " who "

> <jeaninem660@>

>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

> seperate

>>> the

>>>>>> lung

>>>>>>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see

>> if I

>>>>>> can

>>>>>>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started

>> with

>>>>> my

>>>>>>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

>> exposure. I

>>>>>> dont

>>>>>>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article

>> listed

>>>>> it

>>>>>> as

>>>>>>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was

> COPD,

>>>>> but

>>>>>> will

>>>>>>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

> exsertion?

>>>>> this

>>>>>> is

>>>>>>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't

>> it?

>>> I

>>>>>> only

>>>>>>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

>>>>>>> , madeskv@ wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes

> COPD

>> as

>>>>> a

>>>>>>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

>>>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

>>>>>>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut

> and

>>>>>> paste it

>>>>>>> into a browser window.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> This article notification service provided by

>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>>>>>

September 13, 2006

Carl...

I was not going to get into CLaudias paradiagm of a new disease

mechanism...but you did hint about it and explain it very simply....

The definitions are so " skewed " that is the biggest impedience to actually

trying to create a diagnositic code etc for this " illness " .

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Carl E. Grimes wrote:

> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:26:04 -0600

> From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

> Reply-

>

> Subject: Re: [] Re: Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

>

> The posts below are a real-life demonstration of how we desperately

> want precision in descriptions and terms and how we put great effort

> and enegry to achieve it. Read them and see how everyone is learning

> and fine-tuning their understanding.

>

> That said, there is one term that is becoming disfunctional: TOXIN.

>

> We tend to use it as a generic term for anything " chemical " that

> causes problems the experts cannot (or will not) diagnose; as does

> the sister term of " mycotoxin " which are those toxins generated by

> mold. Public health definitions of toxic are based on regulations.

> Specific known substances above permissible exposure levels based

> upon the most common response of a large group of people. Substances

> that don't meet their definition are not " toxins. "

>

> However, we all know that other substances affect us. Although they

> may not be generally recognized as " toxic " their effect on us may be

> " toxic. "

>

> Where the discussion is becoming confusing and perhaps an obstacle to

> understanding is in the context of MCS and 's TILT.

>

> Toxicology is well developed and understood but it is does not

> include all phenomena. Especially for small groups of people and

> individuals.

>

> TILT (toxicant induced loss of tolerance) has been developed to

> address more of the issues that toxicology does not. In fact, TILT is

> being postitioned as an emerging " theory of disease " alongside

> infection, immune disfunction and cancer.

>

> The loss of tolerance can occur from a single exposure to a toxin

> (specific exposure above regulatory levels, usually short duration)

> or a number of toxic or even non-toxic exposures (below regulatory

> levels, or non-regulated such as perfume and other fragrances)

> occuring over a period of time. Low level, long term exposures.

>

> Two very different phenomena. One is short, noticeable and an effort

> may be made to escape. The other is long-term, not usually noticed

> until after tolerance is lost, which can make it more harmful because

> it isn't strong enough to force us to escape (thus stopping the

> exposure). " Oh it can't be that bad " is a typical response. So we

> stay and the harm continues and the lack of tolerance can increase to

> exquisitely low exposures below the detection limit of our best

> instruments. Thus the experts say " Nothing here to cause this

> illness. "

>

> Once the tolerance is lost, it is not to just that substance or even

> just those that are similar; but to any of a variety of exposure

> sources that happen to fit that individual's genetic, health and

> experience profile. So the specifics are different for each of us.

>

> Think of the anology of the straw that broke the camels back. It

> wasn't that specific straw that was responsible, but the whole load

> over a long period of time. Further, once the back is broken,

> removing just that straw isn't enough. The pain is too great to carry

> the original load. The load has to be removed. How much has to be

> removed? It depends on each camel. And, you can't change what the

> camel is carrying. Lead or feathers, the weight is too much.

>

> Mycotoxins are a part of all toxins, so they could be included as an

> agent that creates a loss of tolerance. Or, a different chemical that

> is not considered a toxin could be the trigger that results in a loss

> of tolerance, including to mycotoxins. In one sense it doesn't make

> any difference which came first, the chicken or the egg. Either way

> we are left with " scrambled " rather than " over easy. "

>

> This is a gross oversimplification of MCS and TILT so I hope it

> doesn't mislead or further confuse.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

>> --Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are sensative

>> to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

>> diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

>> several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just wondering if

>> mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone or if

>> its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other toxins.

>>

>> I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather after

>> TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones you were

>> exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc. example-

>> if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a mixture of

>> formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only to

>> formalin but to anything containing ethanol or formalgahide.

>>

>> - In , " who "

>> <jeaninem660@...> wrote:

>>>

>>> --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the process

>> and

>>> MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they both

>> have

>>> there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being from

>>> exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on amounts

>>> exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds up

>>> are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just one

>>> toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

>> more

>>> toxins triggering something certain or different that causes mcss.

>> if

>>> someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a more

>>> logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

>>> derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the factors of

>>> liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

>>> , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the end

>>> of

>>>> my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in with

>>> the

>>>> mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with

>>> it,

>>>> I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle

>>> about

>>>> it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

>> about

>>>> the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well be.

>>> it

>>>> was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

>>>> breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still felt

>>>> better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

>> withdrawels.-

>>> -

>>>> In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not

>>> fully

>>>>> understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism

>> is

>>>> CLaudia

>>>>> s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

>>>>>

>>>>> Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

>> side

>>> of

>>>> the

>>>>> coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

>>>>>

>>>>> She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can

>> find

>>>> her

>>>>> presenation.

>>>>>

>>>>> If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury

>> it

>>>> will be

>>>>> ...

>>>>>

>>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

>>>>>> From: who <jeaninem660@>

>>>>>> Reply-

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering

>> to

>>>>>>

>>>>>> (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

>>>>>> hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

>>>>>> Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can

>> have

>>>>>> airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

>>>> caughing

>>>>>> without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading

>> that

>>>>>> caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to

>>> rid

>>>> it

>>>>>> of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

>>>> sensativity

>>>>>> to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

>>>> misdiagnosed.

>>>>>> heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

>> early

>>>>>> readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

>>>>>> chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

>>>> really

>>>>>> should be.because people can have this reaction without

>> haveing

>>>> mcs

>>>>>> and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

>>>> because

>>>>>> of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the

>> lung

>>>>>> symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from

>>> what

>>>>>> I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

>>>> actually

>>>>>> describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the

>> main

>>>> thing

>>>>>> to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses,

>> I

>>>>>> really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs

>> and

>>>> wipe

>>>>>> all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very

>>> open

>>>>>> mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

>>>> untrain

>>>>>> theriself from what they learned long

>>>>>> ago.

>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> -- In , " who "

>> <jeaninem660@>

>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

>> seperate

>>>> the

>>>>>>> lung

>>>>>>>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see

>>> if I

>>>>>>> can

>>>>>>>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started

>>> with

>>>>>> my

>>>>>>>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

>>> exposure. I

>>>>>>> dont

>>>>>>>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article

>>> listed

>>>>>> it

>>>>>>> as

>>>>>>>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was

>> COPD,

>>>>>> but

>>>>>>> will

>>>>>>>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

>> exsertion?

>>>>>> this

>>>>>>> is

>>>>>>>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't

>>> it?

>>>> I

>>>>>>> only

>>>>>>>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

>>>>>>>> , madeskv@ wrote:

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes

>> COPD

>>> as

>>>>>> a

>>>>>>>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

>>>>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

>>>>>>>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut

>> and

>>>>>>> paste it

>>>>>>>> into a browser window.

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> This article notification service provided by

>>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>>>>>>

September 13, 2006

-Thank you Carl, and no, it was not confuseing at all but let me make

sure I have it straight.

the statement of some earlier articles saying that mcs is from

exposure to 2 or more toxins , is wrong.

the statement that mcs is sensativity to toxins,chemicls, mycotoxins,

and even some non toxic irratants is correct.? so this does include

the caughing and airway restriction? this would explain a lot if this

is correct, it also would explain the variences in reactions to

toxins vs. non-toxins, etc.. but the name multiple chemical

sensativity does lead to a belief that only chemicals are involved.

maybe that was my problem, I was looking at the word chemical as

meaning only toxins and/or toxic chemicals.

someone put it to me like this. allmost everything puts off

particles,some of these particles remain in the lungs. when you get

mcs you than become sensative to those particles and anything that

contains these particles. does that explain the differences in those

with mcs and what they react to? I could almost agree with this and

that some irratants cause milder reactions and others cause stronger

reactions. this theory also includes affects on the airways.this

theory may also include a allergic reaction and that brings up the

question of difference between allergic and sensativity and if they

are basically the same thing. ugh , lol's my heads starting to hurt.

if not for that word 'allergy', I could even put logic into why I

developed food allergys(sensativitys) and multiple other allergies

(sensativitys) at the same time that I got MCS.

I know my exposure in both homes contributed to TILT and MCS, but I

also fell that if I hadn't of had the exposure in the second home and

instead would have gotten a home without mold problems that I would

not have gotten to the point of TILT,MCS or food allergys and other

allergys may of only been limited to 2 if any.

-- In , " Carl E. Grimes "

<grimes@...> wrote:

>

> The posts below are a real-life demonstration of how we desperately

> want precision in descriptions and terms and how we put great

effort

> and enegry to achieve it. Read them and see how everyone is

learning

> and fine-tuning their understanding.

>

> That said, there is one term that is becoming disfunctional: TOXIN.

>

> We tend to use it as a generic term for anything " chemical " that

> causes problems the experts cannot (or will not) diagnose; as does

> the sister term of " mycotoxin " which are those toxins generated by

> mold. Public health definitions of toxic are based on regulations.

> Specific known substances above permissible exposure levels based

> upon the most common response of a large group of people.

Substances

> that don't meet their definition are not " toxins. "

>

> However, we all know that other substances affect us. Although

they

> may not be generally recognized as " toxic " their effect on us may

be

> " toxic. "

>

> Where the discussion is becoming confusing and perhaps an obstacle

to

> understanding is in the context of MCS and 's TILT.

>

> Toxicology is well developed and understood but it is does not

> include all phenomena. Especially for small groups of people and

> individuals.

>

> TILT (toxicant induced loss of tolerance) has been developed to

> address more of the issues that toxicology does not. In fact, TILT

is

> being postitioned as an emerging " theory of disease " alongside

> infection, immune disfunction and cancer.

>

> The loss of tolerance can occur from a single exposure to a toxin

> (specific exposure above regulatory levels, usually short duration)

> or a number of toxic or even non-toxic exposures (below regulatory

> levels, or non-regulated such as perfume and other fragrances)

> occuring over a period of time. Low level, long term exposures.

>

> Two very different phenomena. One is short, noticeable and an

effort

> may be made to escape. The other is long-term, not usually noticed

> until after tolerance is lost, which can make it more harmful

because

> it isn't strong enough to force us to escape (thus stopping the

> exposure). " Oh it can't be that bad " is a typical response. So we

> stay and the harm continues and the lack of tolerance can increase

to

> exquisitely low exposures below the detection limit of our best

> instruments. Thus the experts say " Nothing here to cause this

> illness. "

>

> Once the tolerance is lost, it is not to just that substance or

even

> just those that are similar; but to any of a variety of exposure

> sources that happen to fit that individual's genetic, health and

> experience profile. So the specifics are different for each of us.

>

> Think of the anology of the straw that broke the camels back. It

> wasn't that specific straw that was responsible, but the whole load

> over a long period of time. Further, once the back is broken,

> removing just that straw isn't enough. The pain is too great to

carry

> the original load. The load has to be removed. How much has to be

> removed? It depends on each camel. And, you can't change what the

> camel is carrying. Lead or feathers, the weight is too much.

>

> Mycotoxins are a part of all toxins, so they could be included as

an

> agent that creates a loss of tolerance. Or, a different chemical

that

> is not considered a toxin could be the trigger that results in a

loss

> of tolerance, including to mycotoxins. In one sense it doesn't make

> any difference which came first, the chicken or the egg. Either way

> we are left with " scrambled " rather than " over easy. "

>

> This is a gross oversimplification of MCS and TILT so I hope it

> doesn't mislead or further confuse.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

> -----

> > --Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are

sensative

> > to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

> > diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

> > several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just

wondering if

> > mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone

or if

> > its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other

toxins.

> >

> > I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather

after

> > TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones you

were

> > exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc.

example-

> > if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a mixture of

> > formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only to

> > formalin but to anything containing ethanol or

formalgahide.

> >

> > - In , " who "

> > <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> > >

> > > --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the

process

> > and

> > > MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they

both

> > have

> > > there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being

from

> > > exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on

amounts

> > > exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds

up

> > > are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just

one

> > > toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

> > more

> > > toxins triggering something certain or different that causes

mcss.

> > if

> > > someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a

more

> > > logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

> > > derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the

factors of

> > > liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

> > > , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the

end

> > > of

> > > > my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in

with

> > > the

> > > > mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed

with

> > > it,

> > > > I even know it happened at my second home and had read

alittle

> > > about

> > > > it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

> > about

> > > > the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well

be.

> > > it

> > > > was around the same time that for lack of better words,

complete

> > > > breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still

felt

> > > > better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

> > withdrawels.-

> > > -

> > > > In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still

not

> > > fully

> > > > > understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the

mechanism

> > is

> > > > CLaudia

> > > > > s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

> > > > >

> > > > > Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

> > side

> > > of

> > > > the

> > > > > coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING

it.

> > > > >

> > > > > She did a presentation on this and if you google her you

can

> > find

> > > > her

> > > > > presenation.

> > > > >

> > > > > If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL

injury

> > it

> > > > will be

> > > > > ...

> > > > >

> > > > > On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> > > > > > From: who <jeaninem660@>

> > > > > > Reply-

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was

refering

> > to

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> > > > > > hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> > > > > > Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people

can

> > have

> > > > > > airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict

and

> > > > caughing

> > > > > > without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember

reading

> > that

> > > > > > caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try

to

> > > rid

> > > > it

> > > > > > of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

> > > > sensativity

> > > > > > to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

> > > > misdiagnosed.

> > > > > > heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

> > early

> > > > > > readings on it talked about people coughing with

reactions to

> > > > > > chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if

it

> > > > really

> > > > > > should be.because people can have this reaction without

> > haveing

> > > > mcs

> > > > > > and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox

toxins

> > > > because

> > > > > > of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate

the

> > lung

> > > > > > symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure

from

> > > what

> > > > > > I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of

it

> > > > actually

> > > > > > describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess

the

> > main

> > > > thing

> > > > > > to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and

illnesses,

> > I

> > > > > > really have had to try to untrain myself to certain

beliefs

> > and

> > > > wipe

> > > > > > all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a

very

> > > open

> > > > > > mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they

cant

> > > > untrain

> > > > > > theriself from what they learned long

> > > > > > ago.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >> -- In , " who "

> > <jeaninem660@>

> > > > > >> wrote:

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

> > seperate

> > > > the

> > > > > >> lung

> > > > > >>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will

see

> > > if I

> > > > > >> can

> > > > > >>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it

started

> > > with

> > > > > > my

> > > > > >>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

> > > exposure. I

> > > > > >> dont

> > > > > >>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this

article

> > > listed

> > > > > > it

> > > > > >> as

> > > > > >>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it

was

> > COPD,

> > > > > > but

> > > > > >> will

> > > > > >>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

> > exsertion?

> > > > > > this

> > > > > >> is

> > > > > >>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing

doesn't

> > > it?

> > > > I

> > > > > >> only

> > > > > >>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

> > > > > >>> , madeskv@ wrote:

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It

describes

> > COPD

> > > as

> > > > > > a

> > > > > >>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

> > > > > >>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

> > > > > >>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or

cut

> > and

> > > > > >> paste it

> > > > > >>> into a browser window.

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>>> This article notification service provided by

> > > > > >> http://www.medscape.com

> > > > > >>>>

> > > > > >>>

> > > > > >>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE:

> > > > > >

September 13, 2006

When researching chemcials the prime things are their MSDS. If you

research them you will see that some are repsriatory irriatns, some CNS

etc.

That is also a major factor why this illness can not be clearly

defined....Pesticides invoke certain " symptoms " , mold others, chemcials

even addiitonal ones.

The one unifying concept with " mulitple " is that is effects multiple ORGAN

systems....

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:39:44 -0000

> From: who <jeaninem660@...>

> Reply-

>

> Subject: [] Re: Hi Val, this is what I was refering to

>

> -Thank you Carl, and no, it was not confuseing at all but let me make

> sure I have it straight.

> the statement of some earlier articles saying that mcs is from

> exposure to 2 or more toxins , is wrong.

> the statement that mcs is sensativity to toxins,chemicls, mycotoxins,

> and even some non toxic irratants is correct.? so this does include

> the caughing and airway restriction? this would explain a lot if this

> is correct, it also would explain the variences in reactions to

> toxins vs. non-toxins, etc.. but the name multiple chemical

> sensativity does lead to a belief that only chemicals are involved.

> maybe that was my problem, I was looking at the word chemical as

> meaning only toxins and/or toxic chemicals.

> someone put it to me like this. allmost everything puts off

> particles,some of these particles remain in the lungs. when you get

> mcs you than become sensative to those particles and anything that

> contains these particles. does that explain the differences in those

> with mcs and what they react to? I could almost agree with this and

> that some irratants cause milder reactions and others cause stronger

> reactions. this theory also includes affects on the airways.this

> theory may also include a allergic reaction and that brings up the

> question of difference between allergic and sensativity and if they

> are basically the same thing. ugh , lol's my heads starting to hurt.

> if not for that word 'allergy', I could even put logic into why I

> developed food allergys(sensativitys) and multiple other allergies

> (sensativitys) at the same time that I got MCS.

> I know my exposure in both homes contributed to TILT and MCS, but I

> also fell that if I hadn't of had the exposure in the second home and

> instead would have gotten a home without mold problems that I would

> not have gotten to the point of TILT,MCS or food allergys and other

> allergys may of only been limited to 2 if any.

>

> -- In , " Carl E. Grimes "

> <grimes@...> wrote:

>>

>> The posts below are a real-life demonstration of how we desperately

>> want precision in descriptions and terms and how we put great

> effort

>> and enegry to achieve it. Read them and see how everyone is

> learning

>> and fine-tuning their understanding.

>>

>> That said, there is one term that is becoming disfunctional: TOXIN.

>>

>> We tend to use it as a generic term for anything " chemical " that

>> causes problems the experts cannot (or will not) diagnose; as does

>> the sister term of " mycotoxin " which are those toxins generated by

>> mold. Public health definitions of toxic are based on regulations.

>> Specific known substances above permissible exposure levels based

>> upon the most common response of a large group of people.

> Substances

>> that don't meet their definition are not " toxins. "

>>

>> However, we all know that other substances affect us. Although

> they

>> may not be generally recognized as " toxic " their effect on us may

> be

>> " toxic. "

>>

>> Where the discussion is becoming confusing and perhaps an obstacle

> to

>> understanding is in the context of MCS and 's TILT.

>>

>> Toxicology is well developed and understood but it is does not

>> include all phenomena. Especially for small groups of people and

>> individuals.

>>

>> TILT (toxicant induced loss of tolerance) has been developed to

>> address more of the issues that toxicology does not. In fact, TILT

> is

>> being postitioned as an emerging " theory of disease " alongside

>> infection, immune disfunction and cancer.

>>

>> The loss of tolerance can occur from a single exposure to a toxin

>> (specific exposure above regulatory levels, usually short duration)

>> or a number of toxic or even non-toxic exposures (below regulatory

>> levels, or non-regulated such as perfume and other fragrances)

>> occuring over a period of time. Low level, long term exposures.

>>

>> Two very different phenomena. One is short, noticeable and an

> effort

>> may be made to escape. The other is long-term, not usually noticed

>> until after tolerance is lost, which can make it more harmful

> because

>> it isn't strong enough to force us to escape (thus stopping the

>> exposure). " Oh it can't be that bad " is a typical response. So we

>> stay and the harm continues and the lack of tolerance can increase

> to

>> exquisitely low exposures below the detection limit of our best

>> instruments. Thus the experts say " Nothing here to cause this

>> illness. "

>>

>> Once the tolerance is lost, it is not to just that substance or

> even

>> just those that are similar; but to any of a variety of exposure

>> sources that happen to fit that individual's genetic, health and

>> experience profile. So the specifics are different for each of us.

>>

>> Think of the anology of the straw that broke the camels back. It

>> wasn't that specific straw that was responsible, but the whole load

>> over a long period of time. Further, once the back is broken,

>> removing just that straw isn't enough. The pain is too great to

> carry

>> the original load. The load has to be removed. How much has to be

>> removed? It depends on each camel. And, you can't change what the

>> camel is carrying. Lead or feathers, the weight is too much.

>>

>> Mycotoxins are a part of all toxins, so they could be included as

> an

>> agent that creates a loss of tolerance. Or, a different chemical

> that

>> is not considered a toxin could be the trigger that results in a

> loss

>> of tolerance, including to mycotoxins. In one sense it doesn't make

>> any difference which came first, the chicken or the egg. Either way

>> we are left with " scrambled " rather than " over easy. "

>>

>> This is a gross oversimplification of MCS and TILT so I hope it

>> doesn't mislead or further confuse.

>>

>> Carl Grimes

>> Healthy Habitats LLC

>>

>> -----

>>> --Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are

> sensative

>>> to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

>>> diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

>>> several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just

> wondering if

>>> mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone

> or if

>>> its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other

> toxins.

>>>

>>> I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather

> after

>>> TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones you

> were

>>> exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc.

> example-

>>> if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a mixture of

>>> formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only to

>>> formalin but to anything containing ethanol or

> formalgahide.

>>>

>>> - In , " who "

>>> <jeaninem660@> wrote:

>>>>

>>>> --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the

> process

>>> and

>>>> MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they

> both

>>> have

>>>> there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being

> from

>>>> exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on

> amounts

>>>> exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds

> up

>>>> are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just

> one

>>>> toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

>>> more

>>>> toxins triggering something certain or different that causes

> mcss.

>>> if

>>>> someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a

> more

>>>> logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

>>>> derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the

> factors of

>>>> liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

>>>> , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the

> end

>>>> of

>>>>> my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in

> with

>>>> the

>>>>> mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed

> with

>>>> it,

>>>>> I even know it happened at my second home and had read

> alittle

>>>> about

>>>>> it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

>>> about

>>>>> the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well

> be.

>>>> it

>>>>> was around the same time that for lack of better words,

> complete

>>>>> breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still

> felt

>>>>> better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

>>> withdrawels.-

>>>> -

>>>>> In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still

> not

>>>> fully

>>>>>> understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the

> mechanism

>>> is

>>>>> CLaudia

>>>>>> s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

>>> side

>>>> of

>>>>> the

>>>>>> coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING

> it.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> She did a presentation on this and if you google her you

> can

>>> find

>>>>> her

>>>>>> presenation.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL

> injury

>>> it

>>>>> will be

>>>>>> ...

>>>>>>

>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

>>>>>>> From: who <jeaninem660@>

>>>>>>> Reply-

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was

> refering

>>> to

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

>>>>>>> hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

>>>>>>> Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people

> can

>>> have

>>>>>>> airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict

> and

>>>>> caughing

>>>>>>> without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember

> reading

>>> that

>>>>>>> caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try

> to

>>>> rid

>>>>> it

>>>>>>> of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

>>>>> sensativity

>>>>>>> to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

>>>>> misdiagnosed.

>>>>>>> heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

>>> early

>>>>>>> readings on it talked about people coughing with

> reactions to

>>>>>>> chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if

> it

>>>>> really

>>>>>>> should be.because people can have this reaction without

>>> haveing

>>>>> mcs

>>>>>>> and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox

> toxins

>>>>> because

>>>>>>> of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate

> the

>>> lung

>>>>>>> symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure

> from

>>>> what

>>>>>>> I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of

> it

>>>>> actually

>>>>>>> describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess

> the

>>> main

>>>>> thing

>>>>>>> to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and

> illnesses,

>>> I

>>>>>>> really have had to try to untrain myself to certain

> beliefs

>>> and

>>>>> wipe

>>>>>>> all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a

> very

>>>> open

>>>>>>> mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they

> cant

>>>>> untrain

>>>>>>> theriself from what they learned long

>>>>>>> ago.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> -- In , " who "

>>> <jeaninem660@>

>>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

>>> seperate

>>>>> the

>>>>>>>> lung

>>>>>>>>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will

> see

>>>> if I

>>>>>>>> can

>>>>>>>>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it

> started

>>>> with

>>>>>>> my

>>>>>>>>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

>>>> exposure. I

>>>>>>>> dont

>>>>>>>>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this

> article

>>>> listed

>>>>>>> it

>>>>>>>> as

>>>>>>>>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it

> was

>>> COPD,

>>>>>>> but

>>>>>>>> will

>>>>>>>>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

>>> exsertion?

>>>>>>> this

>>>>>>>> is

>>>>>>>>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing

> doesn't

>>>> it?

>>>>> I

>>>>>>>> only

>>>>>>>>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

>>>>>>>>> , madeskv@ wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It

> describes

>>> COPD

>>>> as

>>>>>>> a

>>>>>>>>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

>>>>>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

>>>>>>>>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or

> cut

>>> and

>>>>>>>> paste it

>>>>>>>>> into a browser window.

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> This article notification service provided by

>>>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>>>>>>>

September 13, 2006

--Angel-HYTEC 288 Specific IgE and IgG testing for MCS these were by

blood tests.

the immunologest that did this testing is a member of the aaem. he

also noted dilated pupils and dry rale lungs, balance,etc. because I

was suffering a mcs attack when I got there.

I just realized that MCS Specific testing did include 2 of my food

allergies, milk and eggs and he also did blind testing where drops

were placed under my tounge. which showed corn and yeast. he also had

me take memory tests while doing this. than there was interdermal

skin testing done that encluded 2 toxins that aren't related to mold.

heres Dr. Rea's article discribeing types 1,2,3, and 4,under

immunological mechanisms

<http://www.aehf.com/articles/env_aspects_of_cs.html>

- In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@...> wrote:

>

> Carl...

>

> I was not going to get into CLaudias paradiagm of a new disease

> mechanism...but you did hint about it and explain it very simply....

>

> The definitions are so " skewed " that is the biggest impedience to

actually

> trying to create a diagnositic code etc for this " illness " .

>

> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, Carl E. Grimes wrote:

>

> > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:26:04 -0600

> > From: Carl E. Grimes <grimes@...>

> > Reply-

> >

> > Subject: Re: [] Re: Hi Val, this is what I was

refering to

> >

> > The posts below are a real-life demonstration of how we

desperately

> > want precision in descriptions and terms and how we put great

effort

> > and enegry to achieve it. Read them and see how everyone is

learning

> > and fine-tuning their understanding.

> >

> > That said, there is one term that is becoming disfunctional:

TOXIN.

> >

> > We tend to use it as a generic term for anything " chemical " that

> > causes problems the experts cannot (or will not) diagnose; as does

> > the sister term of " mycotoxin " which are those toxins generated by

> > mold. Public health definitions of toxic are based on regulations.

> > Specific known substances above permissible exposure levels based

> > upon the most common response of a large group of people.

Substances

> > that don't meet their definition are not " toxins. "

> >

> > However, we all know that other substances affect us. Although

they

> > may not be generally recognized as " toxic " their effect on us may

be

> > " toxic. "

> >

> > Where the discussion is becoming confusing and perhaps an

obstacle to

> > understanding is in the context of MCS and 's TILT.

> >

> > Toxicology is well developed and understood but it is does not

> > include all phenomena. Especially for small groups of people and

> > individuals.

> >

> > TILT (toxicant induced loss of tolerance) has been developed to

> > address more of the issues that toxicology does not. In fact,

TILT is

> > being postitioned as an emerging " theory of disease " alongside

> > infection, immune disfunction and cancer.

> >

> > The loss of tolerance can occur from a single exposure to a toxin

> > (specific exposure above regulatory levels, usually short

duration)

> > or a number of toxic or even non-toxic exposures (below regulatory

> > levels, or non-regulated such as perfume and other fragrances)

> > occuring over a period of time. Low level, long term exposures.

> >

> > Two very different phenomena. One is short, noticeable and an

effort

> > may be made to escape. The other is long-term, not usually noticed

> > until after tolerance is lost, which can make it more harmful

because

> > it isn't strong enough to force us to escape (thus stopping the

> > exposure). " Oh it can't be that bad " is a typical response. So we

> > stay and the harm continues and the lack of tolerance can

increase to

> > exquisitely low exposures below the detection limit of our best

> > instruments. Thus the experts say " Nothing here to cause this

> > illness. "

> >

> > Once the tolerance is lost, it is not to just that substance or

even

> > just those that are similar; but to any of a variety of exposure

> > sources that happen to fit that individual's genetic, health and

> > experience profile. So the specifics are different for each of us.

> >

> > Think of the anology of the straw that broke the camels back. It

> > wasn't that specific straw that was responsible, but the whole

load

> > over a long period of time. Further, once the back is broken,

> > removing just that straw isn't enough. The pain is too great to

carry

> > the original load. The load has to be removed. How much has to be

> > removed? It depends on each camel. And, you can't change what the

> > camel is carrying. Lead or feathers, the weight is too much.

> >

> > Mycotoxins are a part of all toxins, so they could be included as

an

> > agent that creates a loss of tolerance. Or, a different chemical

that

> > is not considered a toxin could be the trigger that results in a

loss

> > of tolerance, including to mycotoxins. In one sense it doesn't

make

> > any difference which came first, the chicken or the egg. Either

way

> > we are left with " scrambled " rather than " over easy. "

> >

> > This is a gross oversimplification of MCS and TILT so I hope it

> > doesn't mislead or further confuse.

> >

> > Carl Grimes

> > Healthy Habitats LLC

> >

> > -----

> >> --Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are

sensative

> >> to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

> >> diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

> >> several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just

wondering if

> >> mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone

or if

> >> its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other toxins.

> >>

> >> I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather

after

> >> TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones

you were

> >> exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc.

example-

> >> if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a mixture of

> >> formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only to

> >> formalin but to anything containing ethanol or formalgahide.

> >>

> >> - In , " who "

> >> <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> >>>

> >>> --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the

process

> >> and

> >>> MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they both

> >> have

> >>> there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being

from

> >>> exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on

amounts

> >>> exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds

up

> >>> are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just

one

> >>> toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

> >> more

> >>> toxins triggering something certain or different that causes

mcss.

> >> if

> >>> someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a

more

> >>> logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

> >>> derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the

factors of

> >>> liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

> >>> , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>> -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the

end

> >>> of

> >>>> my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in

with

> >>> the

> >>>> mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed

with

> >>> it,

> >>>> I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle

> >>> about

> >>>> it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

> >> about

> >>>> the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well

be.

> >>> it

> >>>> was around the same time that for lack of better words,

complete

> >>>> breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still

felt

> >>>> better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

> >> withdrawels.-

> >>> -

> >>>> In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not

> >>> fully

> >>>>> understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism

> >> is

> >>>> CLaudia

> >>>>> s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

> >> side

> >>> of

> >>>> the

> >>>>> coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING

it.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can

> >> find

> >>>> her

> >>>>> presenation.

> >>>>>

> >>>>> If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury

> >> it

> >>>> will be

> >>>>> ...

> >>>>>

> >>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> >>>>>

> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> >>>>>> From: who <jeaninem660@>

> >>>>>> Reply-

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering

> >> to

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> >>>>>> hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> >>>>>> Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can

> >> have

> >>>>>> airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

> >>>> caughing

> >>>>>> without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading

> >> that

> >>>>>> caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to

> >>> rid

> >>>> it

> >>>>>> of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

> >>>> sensativity

> >>>>>> to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

> >>>> misdiagnosed.

> >>>>>> heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

> >> early

> >>>>>> readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

> >>>>>> chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

> >>>> really

> >>>>>> should be.because people can have this reaction without

> >> haveing

> >>>> mcs

> >>>>>> and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

> >>>> because

> >>>>>> of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the

> >> lung

> >>>>>> symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from

> >>> what

> >>>>>> I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

> >>>> actually

> >>>>>> describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the

> >> main

> >>>> thing

> >>>>>> to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses,

> >> I

> >>>>>> really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs

> >> and

> >>>> wipe

> >>>>>> all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very

> >>> open

> >>>>>> mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

> >>>> untrain

> >>>>>> theriself from what they learned long

> >>>>>> ago.

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>>> -- In , " who "

> >> <jeaninem660@>

> >>>>>>> wrote:

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

> >> seperate

> >>>> the

> >>>>>>> lung

> >>>>>>>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see

> >>> if I

> >>>>>>> can

> >>>>>>>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started

> >>> with

> >>>>>> my

> >>>>>>>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

> >>> exposure. I

> >>>>>>> dont

> >>>>>>>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article

> >>> listed

> >>>>>> it

> >>>>>>> as

> >>>>>>>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was

> >> COPD,

> >>>>>> but

> >>>>>>> will

> >>>>>>>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

> >> exsertion?

> >>>>>> this

> >>>>>>> is

> >>>>>>>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't

> >>> it?

> >>>> I

> >>>>>>> only

> >>>>>>>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

> >>>>>>>> , madeskv@ wrote:

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes

> >> COPD

> >>> as

> >>>>>> a

> >>>>>>>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

> >>>>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

> >>>>>>>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut

> >> and

> >>>>>>> paste it

> >>>>>>>> into a browser window.

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>> This article notification service provided by

> >>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com

> >>>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

> >>>>>>

September 13, 2006

yes you might be right about withdrawel being my

system trying to detox. all I know is it was very strange and I just

wanted to go back to my moldy home. so it did fell like withdrawel or

craveing something and it must of appeared that way to my daughter

who pointed it out.but how could your crave something that causes

unpleasent affects.

- In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@...> wrote:

>

> If I can recall my nightmare aka organic or as I refrerred to it

as

> orgasmic (you can extrapolate why) chemistry, there are 2

classifications

> of chemicals??? Aromatic and aliphatic.

>

> From all the literature I have read it is either 1 massive or over

a

> period of time exposure/s. Once the system has been compromised

and not

> functioning t would follow suit that you would become " reactive " to

others

> chemicals, toxins etc.

>

> Every persons immune system is operating at different levels and

there for

> one can possibly never expand into other classes of chemicals.

THen again

> if one is sick and does not understand that they have a reaction to

> chemiclas/toxins/molds etc., and they keep getting exposed the body

will

> reach a saturation point.

>

> My dr explained it this way. Think of an onion wiht the various

> layers...you get so overloaded that you cease to notice additional

> reactions. Only AFTER you start removing recantants do you

*discover* oh,

> I have a *NEW* trigger...it's not NEW it's been there but you were

on such

> a HIGH overload you just didnt notice. THats when the

foodallergies start

> coming in, etc.

>

> MCS does not mean only ONE chemcial...as I said its a " CATCH ALL "

phase to

> explain reactions to so called everyday SAFE products, chemiclas

etc.

>

> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

>

> > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:47:07 -0000

> > From: who <jeaninem660@...>

> > Reply-

> >

> > Subject: [] Re: Hi Val, this is what I was refering

to

> >

> > --Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are

sensative

> > to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

> > diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

> > several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just

wondering if

> > mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone

or if

> > its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other

> > toxins.

> > I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather

after

> > TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones you

> > were exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc.

> > example- if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a

mixture

> > of formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only

to

> > formalin but to anything containing ethanol or

> > formalgahide.

> >

> > - In , " who "

> > <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> >>

> >> --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the process

> > and

> >> MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they both

> > have

> >> there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being

from

> >> exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on

amounts

> >> exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds

up

> >> are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just one

> >> toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

> > more

> >> toxins triggering something certain or different that causes

mcss.

> > if

> >> someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a more

> >> logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

> >> derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the factors

of

> >> liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

> >> , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> >>>

> >>> -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the

end

> >> of

> >>> my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in

with

> >> the

> >>> mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with

> >> it,

> >>> I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle

> >> about

> >>> it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

> > about

> >>> the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well

be.

> >> it

> >>> was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

> >>> breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still

felt

> >>> better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

> > withdrawels.-

> >> -

> >>> In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>> Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not

> >> fully

> >>>> understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism

> > is

> >>> CLaudia

> >>>> s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

> >>>>

> >>>> Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

> > side

> >> of

> >>> the

> >>>> coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

> >>>>

> >>>> She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can

> > find

> >>> her

> >>>> presenation.

> >>>>

> >>>> If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury

> > it

> >>> will be

> >>>> ...

> >>>>

> >>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>>> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> >>>>> From: who <jeaninem660@>

> >>>>> Reply-

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering

> > to

> >>>>>

> >>>>> (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> >>>>> hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> >>>>> Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can

> > have

> >>>>> airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

> >>> caughing

> >>>>> without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading

> > that

> >>>>> caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to

> >> rid

> >>> it

> >>>>> of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

> >>> sensativity

> >>>>> to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

> >>> misdiagnosed.

> >>>>> heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

> > early

> >>>>> readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

> >>>>> chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

> >>> really

> >>>>> should be.because people can have this reaction without

> > haveing

> >>> mcs

> >>>>> and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

> >>> because

> >>>>> of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the

> > lung

> >>>>> symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from

> >> what

> >>>>> I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

> >>> actually

> >>>>> describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the

> > main

> >>> thing

> >>>>> to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses,

> > I

> >>>>> really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs

> > and

> >>> wipe

> >>>>> all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very

> >> open

> >>>>> mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

> >>> untrain

> >>>>> theriself from what they learned long

> >>>>> ago.

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>> -- In , " who "

> > <jeaninem660@>

> >>>>>> wrote:

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

> > seperate

> >>> the

> >>>>>> lung

> >>>>>>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see

> >> if I

> >>>>>> can

> >>>>>>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started

> >> with

> >>>>> my

> >>>>>>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

> >> exposure. I

> >>>>>> dont

> >>>>>>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article

> >> listed

> >>>>> it

> >>>>>> as

> >>>>>>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was

> > COPD,

> >>>>> but

> >>>>>> will

> >>>>>>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

> > exsertion?

> >>>>> this

> >>>>>> is

> >>>>>>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't

> >> it?

> >>> I

> >>>>>> only

> >>>>>>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

> >>>>>>> , madeskv@ wrote:

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes

> > COPD

> >> as

> >>>>> a

> >>>>>>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

> >>>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

> >>>>>>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut

> > and

> >>>>>> paste it

> >>>>>>> into a browser window.

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> This article notification service provided by

> >>>>>> http://www.medscape.com

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

> >>>>>

September 13, 2006

Jeanine,

I'll take these one by one.

> the statement of some earlier articles saying

> that mcs is from exposure to 2 or more toxins , is wrong.

It could be 1 or 2 or 200. MCS is a description of a syndrome of

intolerance to chemicals regardless of the number of chemicals or the

number of times or how it occurred. In fact, SS recognizes MCS (on a

case-by-case basis) so there is a " public health " type description or

diagnosis. Google " Social Security MCS " for info. For example, I

don't meet the technical requirements for MCS but I am reactive to

many chemicals, which can be just as devestating as mold if I can't

get away from it or otherwise stop the exposure.

> statement that mcs is sensativity to toxins,chemicls, mycotoxins, and

> even some non toxic irratants is correct.?

Yes. Chemical is the overall name. They can be further sub-

categorized as toxins, mycotoxins, non-toxic and irritants. But there

are other irritants that aren't chemicals, such as particles. (see

below).

> so this does include the

> caughing and airway restriction? this would explain a lot if this is

> correct, .

's Quick Environmental Exposure and Sensitivity

Inventory (QEESI) for chemical intolerance includes ten (10)

different body systems that can be affected. Lungs and breathing is

one of the ten.

> it also would explain the variences in reactions to toxins

> vs. non-toxins, etc.

A toxin is defined as a protein (not a chemical) that causes disease.

Toxic, on the other hand, means capable of causing injury or death,

especially by chemical means.

Because the complaints we have are not being diagnosed as an injury,

disease or death they are not considered toxins or toxic. Therefore

we are not considered as harmed or injured and thus require no

treatment. So when we claim harm from substances generally not

considered as toxins or as toxic, the " experts " don't affirm our

claim. If we persist they resist. Making claims that are crazy by

their standards makes us look crazy (to them). We know we aren't but

they don't. This is why 's QEESI and TILT used correctly can be

valuable. They have to reject a medical possibility or " emerging

theory of disease " rather than quickly reject us personally. It's

still far from easy but at least it's progress.

> but the name multiple chemical sensativity does

> lead to a belief that only chemicals are involved.

Technically, MCS is just for chemicals, as is chemical intolerance.

But that doesn't mean you aren't also reacting to other substances

with other mechanisms. Allergy is very different, for example. As are

particles that irritate. Or the immune issues from biotoxins that

Shoemaker works with. Calling all of our symptoms the result of only

one cause is like saying all damage from a car wreck is only broken

bones, or only bruised organs, or concussion, or lung infection from

respirating dirty water from the crash site. There are many types of

effects due to many reasons.

> maybe that was my

> problem, I was looking at the word chemical as meaning only toxins

> and/or toxic chemicals.

That is the way we commonly think of chemicals. Harsh industrial

products with a skull and crossbones on the the label. I categorize

sources of chemicals into four general groups:

1. Building materials

2. Pesticides

3. Cleaning products (all, including the organic and hypoallergenic

ones, not just industrial strength).

4. The " stealth " source - because we never think of them as chemicals

and they are subject to " masking. " I'm talking about personal care

products. Yes, the soap and shampoo you use every day. The perfume

and body lotion. Ever read the labels? There are chemicals allowed in

personal care products - and some cleaning products - that are highly

regulated and restricted in industry. The laws for use, reporting and

labeling are very different for these so many of them won't even be

on the label or the MSDS. On the other hand, glycerin is one of the

worst chemicals for me. Ever try to find a lotion that doesn't have

glycerin AND no fragrance? I know of only two.

> someone put it to me like this. allmost

> everything puts off particles,some of these particles remain in the

> lungs. when you get mcs you than become sensative to those particles

> and anything that contains these particles. does that explain the

> differences in those with mcs and what they react to?

To understand this we have to distinguish between particles and

chemicals. There are many differences but perhaps the easiest way is

by size. Particles that we can see are typically larger than 20

microns. Don't worry about what a micron is, just remember that human

hair is about 100 microns. Under ideal conditions - a shaft of light

in a dark room - will reveal the smallest particles that some of us

can see at about 10 microns. Most allergens and irritant particles

are 1 micron and larger. We need a filter that will remove at least

the 1 micron and larger particles. HEPA filters are great because

they remove starting at 0.3 microns and go up from there. This is

also why vacuum cleaners can be such polluters because the typical

bags removes only particles larger than 10 microns, blowing the

allergens and irritants through the exhaust and back into the air.

Chemicals are much smaller. If you were enlarge a 1 micron particle

to the size of a 3 foot diameter beach ball, chemicals would be like

grains of sand stuck onto the surface of the ball. Molecules of air

would be about the same size as the sand. Which means the chemicals

can't be seperated from the air with filters like the giant particles

can.

Think of you lungs as an air filter. The nose opening is big but the

nasal passages are smaller, on down to the bronchia and the single

cell size where the oxygen and carbon dioxide transfer. How far down

the tubes will a particle go? The larger ones get caught in the nose

hair. The smaller ones can go to near the bottom. The tiny sized

chemicals hardly notice the lungs at all because they are the same

size as the air that the lungs are designed for.

Particles tend to settle on surfaces as " dust bunnies " and chemicals

tend to evaporate like water from a pan.

Now, to answer your question, I'd say that almost everything sheds

particles and evaporates chemicals. How it affects us depends on

their other properties, how they come into contact with our body

(skin, lungs, stomach), how our immune systems responds and functions

(or doesn't) and whether or not we have become allergic, sensitized

or intolerant.

> I could almost

>agree with this and that some irratants cause milder reactions and

> others cause stronger reactions. this theory also includes affects on

> the airways.this theory may also include a allergic reaction and that

> brings up the question of difference between allergic and sensativity

> and if they are basically the same thing. ugh , lol's my heads

> starting to hurt. if not for that word 'allergy', I could even put

> logic into why I developed food allergys(sensativitys) and multiple

> other allergies (sensativitys) at the same time that I got MCS.

There may be more than one reason or cause for each of the numerous

types of reactions you have. One client was incredibly ill from water

damaged home but was not allergic to mold. Other clients are allergic

to mold but not reactive to chemicals. And all other combinations.

> I know

>my exposure in both homes contributed to TILT and MCS, but also fell

> that if I hadn't of had the exposure in the second home and instead

> would have gotten a home without mold problems that I would not have

> gotten to the point of TILT,MCS or food allergys and other allergys

> may of only been limited to 2 if any.

Remember the " straw that broke the camel's back " in my previous post?

It sounds like what you are describing happened to you. It wasn't

just the last straw or the first straw. It was everything combined.

And, by the way, not all camel's break their back at the same time

with the same conditions.

My suggestion to my clients is to focus, as best they can, on what

symptoms and complaints they can identify. Write them down. Then

write down the types of things (the 4 above) or locations where you

react. Now compare the two lists. Where are they in common? Begin

sorting out the information so you can begin stopping or avoiding

exposures. Begin with the worst reactions, leaving the smaller ones

alone for the time being. As you make progress with the the big ones,

the lesser reactions will begin to retract also. Anything that

doesn't change between exposed and not exposed either has some other

cause or the damage needs a longer time to heal. 's QEESI star

chart helps to illustrate the before and after differences.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

September 13, 2006

I have heard other patients say the same thing. about their moldy enviornments

I think it is because you detox when away from the mold and depending on your

body and your total load it is difficult to detox. perhaps also there are not

many chemicals in your home and you have the double whammy of being exposed to

those when away from home.

who <jeaninem660@...> wrote: yes you might be right about

withdrawel being my

system trying to detox. all I know is it was very strange and I just

wanted to go back to my moldy home. so it did fell like withdrawel or

craveing something and it must of appeared that way to my daughter

who pointed it out.but how could your crave something that causes

unpleasent affects.

- In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@...> wrote:

>

> If I can recall my nightmare aka organic or as I refrerred to it

as

> orgasmic (you can extrapolate why) chemistry, there are 2

classifications

> of chemicals??? Aromatic and aliphatic.

>

> From all the literature I have read it is either 1 massive or over

a

> period of time exposure/s. Once the system has been compromised

and not

> functioning t would follow suit that you would become " reactive " to

others

> chemicals, toxins etc.

>

> Every persons immune system is operating at different levels and

there for

> one can possibly never expand into other classes of chemicals.

THen again

> if one is sick and does not understand that they have a reaction to

> chemiclas/toxins/molds etc., and they keep getting exposed the body

will

> reach a saturation point.

>

> My dr explained it this way. Think of an onion wiht the various

> layers...you get so overloaded that you cease to notice additional

> reactions. Only AFTER you start removing recantants do you

*discover* oh,

> I have a *NEW* trigger...it's not NEW it's been there but you were

on such

> a HIGH overload you just didnt notice. THats when the

foodallergies start

> coming in, etc.

>

> MCS does not mean only ONE chemcial...as I said its a " CATCH ALL "

phase to

> explain reactions to so called everyday SAFE products, chemiclas

etc.

>

> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

>

> > Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:47:07 -0000

> > From: who <jeaninem660@...>

> > Reply-

> >

> > Subject: [] Re: Hi Val, this is what I was refering

to

> >

> > --Angel, I agree that mcs is just a term that means you are

sensative

> > to more than one toxin. I would like to know if anyone has been

> > diagnosed with mcs that was exposed to only one mycotoxin or even

> > several mycotoxins., no other types toxins envolved.just

wondering if

> > mcs diagnoses is deturmined by multiple myco sensativitys alone

or if

> > its based on sensativitys to myco's plus other

> > toxins.

> > I also was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to weather

after

> > TILT you than become sensative to all toxins or just the ones you

> > were exposed to, maybe just in different forms,items,mixtures,etc.

> > example- if you were exposed to formalin, which I read is a

mixture

> > of formalgahide and ethanol, than you would be sensative not only

to

> > formalin but to anything containing ethanol or

> > formalgahide.

> >

> > - In , " who "

> > <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> >>

> >> --to me it seams that TILT is a better description of the process

> > and

> >> MCSS in what you end up with. just going by the words, they both

> > have

> >> there own values. but I do think that statements of mcs being

from

> >> exposure to 2 or more toxins is wrong, because depending on

amounts

> >> exposed to and lenght of exposure and how well your liver holds

up

> >> are the deturmineing factors, and this could happen with just one

> >> toxin exposure.I have found nothing that shows a factor of 2 or

> > more

> >> toxins triggering something certain or different that causes

mcss.

> > if

> >> someone knows please let me know. so TILT does seams to be a more

> >> logical meaning.I am all open to someone showing me that mcs is

> >> derived by exposure to 2 or more toxins and not just the factors

of

> >> liver disfunctioning with toxin overload. - In

> >> , " who " <jeaninem660@> wrote:

> >>>

> >>> -Angel, do you think the withdrawel symptoms I had toward the

end

> >> of

> >>> my exposure when I would leave the house is directly tied in

with

> >> the

> >>> mcs, I have had special mcs testing and have been diagnosed with

> >> it,

> >>> I even know it happened at my second home and had read alittle

> >> about

> >>> it before I was diagnosed and knew i had it, I never thought

> > about

> >>> the withdrawel symptoms being part of it but it may very well

be.

> >> it

> >>> was around the same time that for lack of better words, complete

> >>> breakdown thought I was dieing.and right before this I still

felt

> >>> better when getting out but than it changed to haveing

> > withdrawels.-

> >> -

> >>> In , Angel!! <jap2bemc@> wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>> Drs don't get it becuase the mechanism of injury is still not

> >> fully

> >>>> understood. Closest thing to an explanation of the mechanism

> > is

> >>> CLaudia

> >>>> s toxicant inducted loss of tolerance aka TILT.

> >>>>

> >>>> Then again she did coin a term ABDICTION which is the other

> > side

> >> of

> >>> the

> >>>> coin to ADDICTION. WHre the body actua;lly craves AVOIDING it.

> >>>>

> >>>> She did a presentation on this and if you google her you can

> > find

> >>> her

> >>>> presenation.

> >>>>

> >>>> If anyone is goning to find the mechanism for CHEMCIAL injury

> > it

> >>> will be

> >>>> ...

> >>>>

> >>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, who wrote:

> >>>>

> >>>>> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2006 03:48:32 -0000

> >>>>> From: who <jeaninem660@>

> >>>>> Reply-

> >>>>>

> >>>>> Subject: [] Hi Val, this is what I was refering

> > to

> >>>>>

> >>>>> (http://faculty.cse.edu/ikessler/path/path10.html)

> >>>>> hypoventilation , COPD or COLD no. 1V.

> >>>>> Val, sounds like you might have mcs. but I think people can

> > have

> >>>>> airway hypersensativity that causes airways to restrict and

> >>> caughing

> >>>>> without mcs,and/or before they get mcs. I remember reading

> > that

> >>>>> caughing is a lot like sneezeing, your body reacts to try to

> >> rid

> >>> it

> >>>>> of the intruder and your airways close up in reaction to

> >>> sensativity

> >>>>> to intruder.I can see where lung problems could be so

> >>> misdiagnosed.

> >>>>> heres where it gets confuseing, mcs is toxin overload but

> > early

> >>>>> readings on it talked about people coughing with reactions to

> >>>>> chemicals so I lumped it all together, but I dont know if it

> >>> really

> >>>>> should be.because people can have this reaction without

> > haveing

> >>> mcs

> >>>>> and toxin overload happens when your liver cant detox toxins

> >>> because

> >>>>> of damage and/or overload of toxins, so do you seperate the

> > lung

> >>>>> symptoms or what? gee its all so crazy, I'm pretty sure from

> >> what

> >>>>> I've read that I have porphyrinopathy but the symptoms of it

> >>> actually

> >>>>> describe what I thought were all mcs symptoms. I guess the

> > main

> >>> thing

> >>>>> to remember is the overlaping of many symptoms and illnesses,

> > I

> >>>>> really have had to try to untrain myself to certain beliefs

> > and

> >>> wipe

> >>>>> all misdiagnoses out of my mind to look at it all with a very

> >> open

> >>>>> mind, maybe this is why some doctors dont get it, they cant

> >>> untrain

> >>>>> theriself from what they learned long

> >>>>> ago.

> >>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>>> -- In , " who "

> > <jeaninem660@>

> >>>>>> wrote:

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>> --Thanks, I found a article the other day that helps

> > seperate

> >>> the

> >>>>>> lung

> >>>>>>> diseases by symptoms, dont know where my head was, will see

> >> if I

> >>>>>> can

> >>>>>>> find it again. I hyperventalate with exsertion, it started

> >> with

> >>>>> my

> >>>>>>> exposure at some point in the first home with stachy

> >> exposure. I

> >>>>>> dont

> >>>>>>> think it has anything to do with asthma, but this article

> >> listed

> >>>>> it

> >>>>>> as

> >>>>>>> a symptom of one of these lung diseases, thinking it was

> > COPD,

> >>>>> but

> >>>>>> will

> >>>>>>> have to check. does anyone else hyperventalate with

> > exsertion?

> >>>>> this

> >>>>>> is

> >>>>>>> somewhat hard to sort out, asthma includes coughing doesn't

> >> it?

> >>> I

> >>>>>> only

> >>>>>>> cough with a mcs attack from a chemical exposure.- In

> >>>>>>> , madeskv@ wrote:

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> I thought you might be interested in this. It describes

> > COPD

> >> as

> >>>>> a

> >>>>>>> disease occurring from inflammation of the lungs.

> >>>>>>>> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542510?src=mp

> >>>>>>>> To access the article, click on this Web address, or cut

> > and

> >>>>>> paste it

> >>>>>>> into a browser window.

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>> This article notification service provided by

> >>>>>> http://www.medscape.com

> >>>>>>>>

> >>>>>>>

> >>>>>>

> >>>>>

> >>>>> FAIR USE NOTICE:

> >>>>>

September 13, 2006

Carl, love that explanation on MCS. My husband and I both are

chemical sensitive. My husband has a very difficult time with

newspapers but I do okay with them usually unless they get old.

Although the other day my paper had a strong fragrance odor. For me

when I was exposed to mold it was a slow illness process at first.

But then I had an serious allergice uticaria and had to go to the

hospital. I was on prendizone for many months and other medications.

I was starting to get better than the landlord decided to remove

wallpaper and paint and that was where my health took a real turn

for the worse. Next I had to have sinus surgery and then immediately

move after surgery. So my mcs was caused by many factors. Plus the

stress in all of this didn't help. Many people on the MCS site I

go to also had this discussion may times when they were changing the

name of the site. No doctor called my illness mcs. They called it

reactive airways disease or irritant induced asthma. To me they are

all the same. I think the food allergies come with the yeast and the

break down of our imune system after all of the assults on our body

when we are weakened. Alot of people that have a yeast problem have

trouble with a particular chemical called aldehyde. These patients

are incredibly sensitive to any type of fragrance. But I also have

trouble with cooking odors, grills, air pollution, grass getting cut,

mold, the shoe department. I have many allergies but that is the

last of my problem other than the yeast allergy. I think that is why

I can't get rid of the yeast. Anyway good thread.

, " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

>

> Jeanine,

>

> I'll take these one by one.

>

> > the statement of some earlier articles saying

> > that mcs is from exposure to 2 or more toxins , is wrong.

>

> It could be 1 or 2 or 200. MCS is a description of a syndrome of

> intolerance to chemicals regardless of the number of chemicals or

the

> number of times or how it occurred. In fact, SS recognizes MCS (on

a

> case-by-case basis) so there is a " public health " type description

or

> diagnosis. Google " Social Security MCS " for info. For example, I

> don't meet the technical requirements for MCS but I am reactive to

> many chemicals, which can be just as devestating as mold if I can't

> get away from it or otherwise stop the exposure.

>

> > statement that mcs is sensativity to toxins,chemicls, mycotoxins,

and

> > even some non toxic irratants is correct.?

>

> Yes. Chemical is the overall name. They can be further sub-

> categorized as toxins, mycotoxins, non-toxic and irritants. But

there

> are other irritants that aren't chemicals, such as particles. (see

> below).

>

> > so this does include the

> > caughing and airway restriction? this would explain a lot if this

is

> > correct, .

>

> 's Quick Environmental Exposure and Sensitivity

> Inventory (QEESI) for chemical intolerance includes ten (10)

> different body systems that can be affected. Lungs and breathing is

> one of the ten.

>

> > it also would explain the variences in reactions to toxins

> > vs. non-toxins, etc.

>

> A toxin is defined as a protein (not a chemical) that causes

disease.

> Toxic, on the other hand, means capable of causing injury or death,

> especially by chemical means.

>

> Because the complaints we have are not being diagnosed as an

injury,

> disease or death they are not considered toxins or toxic. Therefore

> we are not considered as harmed or injured and thus require no

> treatment. So when we claim harm from substances generally not

> considered as toxins or as toxic, the " experts " don't affirm our

> claim. If we persist they resist. Making claims that are crazy by

> their standards makes us look crazy (to them). We know we aren't

but

> they don't. This is why 's QEESI and TILT used correctly can

be

> valuable. They have to reject a medical possibility or " emerging

> theory of disease " rather than quickly reject us personally. It's

> still far from easy but at least it's progress.

>

> > but the name multiple chemical sensativity does

> > lead to a belief that only chemicals are involved.

>

> Technically, MCS is just for chemicals, as is chemical intolerance.

> But that doesn't mean you aren't also reacting to other substances

> with other mechanisms. Allergy is very different, for example. As

are

> particles that irritate. Or the immune issues from biotoxins that

> Shoemaker works with. Calling all of our symptoms the result of

only

> one cause is like saying all damage from a car wreck is only broken

> bones, or only bruised organs, or concussion, or lung infection

from

> respirating dirty water from the crash site. There are many types

of

> effects due to many reasons.

>

> > maybe that was my

> > problem, I was looking at the word chemical as meaning only toxins

> > and/or toxic chemicals.

>

> That is the way we commonly think of chemicals. Harsh industrial

> products with a skull and crossbones on the the label. I categorize

> sources of chemicals into four general groups:

> 1. Building materials

> 2. Pesticides

> 3. Cleaning products (all, including the organic and

hypoallergenic

> ones, not just industrial strength).

> 4. The " stealth " source - because we never think of them as

chemicals

> and they are subject to " masking. " I'm talking about personal

care

> products. Yes, the soap and shampoo you use every day. The

perfume

> and body lotion. Ever read the labels? There are chemicals

allowed in

> personal care products - and some cleaning products - that are

highly

> regulated and restricted in industry. The laws for use,

reporting and

> labeling are very different for these so many of them won't

even be

> on the label or the MSDS. On the other hand, glycerin is one

of the

> worst chemicals for me. Ever try to find a lotion that doesn't

have

> glycerin AND no fragrance? I know of only two.

>

> > someone put it to me like this. allmost

> > everything puts off particles,some of these particles remain in

the

> > lungs. when you get mcs you than become sensative to those

particles

> > and anything that contains these particles. does that explain the

> > differences in those with mcs and what they react to?

>

> To understand this we have to distinguish between particles and

> chemicals. There are many differences but perhaps the easiest way

is

> by size. Particles that we can see are typically larger than 20

> microns. Don't worry about what a micron is, just remember that

human

> hair is about 100 microns. Under ideal conditions - a shaft of

light

> in a dark room - will reveal the smallest particles that some of us

> can see at about 10 microns. Most allergens and irritant particles

> are 1 micron and larger. We need a filter that will remove at least

> the 1 micron and larger particles. HEPA filters are great because

> they remove starting at 0.3 microns and go up from there. This is

> also why vacuum cleaners can be such polluters because the typical

> bags removes only particles larger than 10 microns, blowing the

> allergens and irritants through the exhaust and back into the air.

>

> Chemicals are much smaller. If you were enlarge a 1 micron particle

> to the size of a 3 foot diameter beach ball, chemicals would be

like

> grains of sand stuck onto the surface of the ball. Molecules of air

> would be about the same size as the sand. Which means the chemicals

> can't be seperated from the air with filters like the giant

particles

> can.

>

> Think of you lungs as an air filter. The nose opening is big but

the

> nasal passages are smaller, on down to the bronchia and the single

> cell size where the oxygen and carbon dioxide transfer. How far

down

> the tubes will a particle go? The larger ones get caught in the

nose

> hair. The smaller ones can go to near the bottom. The tiny sized

> chemicals hardly notice the lungs at all because they are the same

> size as the air that the lungs are designed for.

>

> Particles tend to settle on surfaces as " dust bunnies " and

chemicals

> tend to evaporate like water from a pan.

>

> Now, to answer your question, I'd say that almost everything sheds

> particles and evaporates chemicals. How it affects us depends on

> their other properties, how they come into contact with our body

> (skin, lungs, stomach), how our immune systems responds and

functions

> (or doesn't) and whether or not we have become allergic, sensitized

> or intolerant.

>

> > I could almost

> >agree with this and that some irratants cause milder reactions and

> > others cause stronger reactions. this theory also includes

affects on

> > the airways.this theory may also include a allergic reaction and

that

> > brings up the question of difference between allergic and

sensativity

> > and if they are basically the same thing. ugh , lol's my heads

> > starting to hurt. if not for that word 'allergy', I could even put

> > logic into why I developed food allergys(sensativitys) and

multiple

> > other allergies (sensativitys) at the same time that I got MCS.

>

> There may be more than one reason or cause for each of the numerous

> types of reactions you have. One client was incredibly ill from

water

> damaged home but was not allergic to mold. Other clients are

allergic

> to mold but not reactive to chemicals. And all other combinations.

>

> > I know

> >my exposure in both homes contributed to TILT and MCS, but also

fell

> > that if I hadn't of had the exposure in the second home and

instead

> > would have gotten a home without mold problems that I would not

have

> > gotten to the point of TILT,MCS or food allergys and other

allergys

> > may of only been limited to 2 if any.

>

> Remember the " straw that broke the camel's back " in my previous

post?

> It sounds like what you are describing happened to you. It wasn't

> just the last straw or the first straw. It was everything combined.

> And, by the way, not all camel's break their back at the same time

> with the same conditions.

>

> My suggestion to my clients is to focus, as best they can, on what

> symptoms and complaints they can identify. Write them down. Then

> write down the types of things (the 4 above) or locations where you

> react. Now compare the two lists. Where are they in common? Begin

> sorting out the information so you can begin stopping or avoiding

> exposures. Begin with the worst reactions, leaving the smaller ones

> alone for the time being. As you make progress with the the big

ones,

> the lesser reactions will begin to retract also. Anything that

> doesn't change between exposed and not exposed either has some

other

> cause or the damage needs a longer time to heal. 's QEESI

star

> chart helps to illustrate the before and after differences.

>

> Carl Grimes

> Healthy Habitats LLC

>

September 13, 2006

Are you on a yeast treatment protocol???

ldelp84227 <ldelp84227@...> wrote: Carl, love that explanation on

MCS. My husband and I both are