Re: Impaction question, was: Would GP follow what ...

[Guest guest]

Caroline, yes, I did say to her I would like to rule out impaction, butshe said no, that CANNOT be impaction in his case because if it were hewould have frequent liquid bms all the time (and he only poops once aday, or every other day).My question is: is that true? did people who found impaction on x-raynecessarily go through many and frequent runny bms per day?

>>No this is not true - she needs to come conference and listen to Drs Wakefield and Krigsman (kinda imganing her face at that suggestion LOLOLOL). Or talk to Muscroft who is now up to 35 of 36 patients xrayed I think (Jo will know) kids with impactions or loaded - inlcuding those with flat stomachs and daily normal looking poops.

If you think she would watch a 40 min of Dr Krigsman explaining all this let me know after the conference, we are unlikely to be videoing but I have a copy of this presentation on disc

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

And give GP the paper published in pediatrics:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/112/4/939

and if the link doesn't work google: simon murch constipation

acquired megarectum

and you'll find the paper.

Margaret

>

>

> In a message dated 27/01/2007 20:54:03 GMT Standard Time,

> neno@... writes:

>

> Caroline, yes, I did say to her I would like to rule out

impaction, but

> she said no, that CANNOT be impaction in his case because if it

were he

> would have frequent liquid bms all the time (and he only poops

once a

> day, or every other day).

>

> My question is: is that true? did people who found impaction on x-

ray

> necessarily go through many and frequent runny bms per day?

>

>

>

> >>No this is not true - she needs to come conference and listen to

Drs

> Wakefield and Krigsman (kinda imganing her face at that suggestion

LOLOLOL). Or

> talk to Muscroft who is now up to 35 of 36 patients xrayed I

think (Jo

> will know) kids with impactions or loaded - inlcuding those with

flat stomachs

> and daily normal looking poops.

>

> If you think she would watch a 40 min of Dr Krigsman explaining all

this let

> me know after the conference, we are unlikely to be videoing but I

have a

> copy of this presentation on disc

>

> Mandi x

>

[Guest guest]

This paper says ( and read it out to your recalictrant doctor):

" The ABSENCE OF ANY CORRECLATION BETWEEN THE CLINICAL HISTORY AND THE

DEGREE OF FECAL IMPACTION IN AUTISTIC CHILDREN confirms the

importance of an abdominal radiograph in the assessment of the degree

of constipation. Effective treatment may potentially alleviate

behavioral problems and disturbed sleep pattern in autistic

children. "

THIS MEANS THE CHILD CAN HAVE A FLAT STOMACH AND A DAILY BM AND STILL

BE IMPACTED (sorry for shouting).

Margaret

>

>

> In a message dated 27/01/2007 20:54:03 GMT Standard Time,

> neno@... writes:

>

> Caroline, yes, I did say to her I would like to rule out

impaction, but

> she said no, that CANNOT be impaction in his case because if it

were he

> would have frequent liquid bms all the time (and he only poops

once a

> day, or every other day).

>

> My question is: is that true? did people who found impaction on x-

ray

> necessarily go through many and frequent runny bms per day?

>

>

>

> >>No this is not true - she needs to come conference and listen to

Drs

> Wakefield and Krigsman (kinda imganing her face at that suggestion

LOLOLOL). Or

> talk to Muscroft who is now up to 35 of 36 patients xrayed I

think (Jo

> will know) kids with impactions or loaded - inlcuding those with

flat stomachs

> and daily normal looking poops.

>

> If you think she would watch a 40 min of Dr Krigsman explaining all

this let

> me know after the conference, we are unlikely to be videoing but I

have a

> copy of this presentation on disc

>

> Mandi x

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Margaret, me thinks will have to think of a way to put some money

together and do a private x-ray, probably when we go abroad over Easter

as I believe it would be less expensive then doing it here.

Our current peadiatrician looks (almost) reasonable but we will not get

to see her for quite a while now. As for the GPs...

Natasa

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 27/01/2007 20:54:03 GMT Standard Time,

> > neno@ writes:

> >

> > Caroline, yes, I did say to her I would like to rule out

> impaction, but

> > she said no, that CANNOT be impaction in his case because if it

> were he

> > would have frequent liquid bms all the time (and he only poops

> once a

> > day, or every other day).

> >

> > My question is: is that true? did people who found impaction on x-

> ray

> > necessarily go through many and frequent runny bms per day?

> >

> >

> >

> > >>No this is not true - she needs to come conference and listen to

> Drs

> > Wakefield and Krigsman (kinda imganing her face at that suggestion

> LOLOLOL). Or

> > talk to Muscroft who is now up to 35 of 36 patients xrayed I

> think (Jo

> > will know) kids with impactions or loaded - inlcuding those with

> flat stomachs

> > and daily normal looking poops.

> >

> > If you think she would watch a 40 min of Dr Krigsman explaining all

> this let

> > me know after the conference, we are unlikely to be videoing but I

> have a

> > copy of this presentation on disc

> >

> > Mandi x

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It is absolutely not true Natasa! These people make my blood boil!! Sorry if someone has answered this already just cannot stop myself!! Your child can have normal looking BMs once a day and still be impacted.... They can have constipation alternating with dairrhoea and still be impacted but the mosta astounding thing about these kids is that they sometimes dont go to the loo for days and the stool is soft! This is not CONSTIPATION, thats when faeces remains in your gut and more and more water becomes absorbed form it in the lower colon, got the images in my head right now are lectures form when I was a student!! Thats what she will have learnded too believe me, the soft stool should be ringing alarm bells for her at the very least! A doctor cannot ever feel if our kids are overloaded (IMPACTED) well very rarely IMHO because the stool is soft. When normal guts have constipationa and havent gone for weeks, you feel all the hard little rabbit droppings inside. Christ if I lived there I would be coming to that bloody GP with you and she would be x-raying him after that. BELIEVE ME!

So over na dout in Aberdeenshire

AKA Caroline

xxx

[Guest guest]

Hi Geir

Wrong on many fronts! Sorry know you are a medic but this is the misconception. Impaction CAN and DOES equal soft stool in these kids and I have x-rays coming out my ears to show this!

Cannot feel by external examination in the most part!..

Also DOES show up (overloaded bowel) on x-ray so YES standard part of autism daignosis and treatment should be Bowel x-ray for ALL.

In my humble not unnecessary, ESSENTIAL. As is ongoing traetment, gotta send you Krigsman DVD to watch, think you can alos download from last Autism One conference, go see!

You should be coming to the Conference Dr Flatbo then you can go back and educate all them Norske doctors too....

Only joking but me and bowels really sets me off on one!!

Luv caroline

xxx

[Guest guest]

In my humble not unnecessary, ESSENTIAL. As is ongoing traetment, gotta send you Krigsman DVD to watch, think you can alos download from last Autism One conference, go see!

>>You can see the real thing i fyou come to Bournemouth, the dowload shows none of the video clips which are essential to under stand it

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

Fascinating fecal discussion.........

THere is obviously no clear signs....

Bowel problems are differing, but there are problems, obviously with

" bowel movements " making som impacted with hard stools, ( impaction)

and some with soft stools, still not going to toilet..

I guess this will not show anything special on x-ray -

it have to be hard / dry to show as an impaction on an x- ray ??

Still this problem is so common with ASD children, that perhaps every ASD ought to have a " plain abdominal X-ray " ??

Or is it just an extra unnecessary test,

- like every ASD should do a " clear out " anyway with

, Vitamin C, MgO / Oxypowder or other enema anyway ???

Geir Flatabö

_ Jap proverb:

When stomach is well

your soul feels good...

2007/1/28, CarolineTraa@... :

It is absolutely not true Natasa! These people make my blood boil!! Sorry if someone has answered this already just cannot stop myself!! Your child can have normal looking BMs once a day and still be impacted.... They can have constipation alternating with dairrhoea and still be impacted but the mosta astounding thing about these kids is that they sometimes dont go to the loo for days and the stool is soft! This is not CONSTIPATION, thats when faeces remains in your gut and more and more water becomes absorbed form it in the lower colon, got the images in my head right now are lectures form when I was a student!! Thats what she will have learnded too believe me, the soft stool should be ringing alarm bells for her at the very least! A doctor cannot ever feel if our kids are overloaded (IMPACTED) well very rarely IMHO because the stool is soft. When normal guts have constipationa and havent gone for weeks, you feel all the hard little rabbit droppings inside. Christ if I lived there I would be coming to that bloody GP with you and she would be x-raying him after that. BELIEVE ME!

So over na dout in Aberdeenshire

AKA Caroline

xxx

[Guest guest]

> I guess this will not show anything special on x-ray -

> it have to be hard / dry to show as an impaction on an x- ray ??

>

Not in our case Geir, Joes stools are soft exactly as Caroline

described (you are scary when you're angry Caroline!!) but showed

significant impaction on xray,

[Guest guest]

>(you are scary when you're angry Caroline!!)

Sorry just read that back wasn't meaning you are angry at what Geir

said just that it is a subject you feel strongly about!!

[Guest guest]

Hi Caroline

We had an x-ray at the Royal Free and the consultant was honest and

said that they know lots of autistic kids are constipated/ impacted (

as it happened Charlie wasn't but he said it looked like he had

been). I said about a colonoscopy which we know they are not allowed

to do but he said even if he did one they do not know how to treat

the kids because after Wakefield no one is doing any research into it.

Are you giving steroids after your trip to the States?

The thing is you could have an x-ray and they might not be impacted

but then this could change - a bit like OAT tests nothing is static.

What I mean is what is the point in pushing for these tests if the

treatment isn't available. Can we overtreat our kids?

Hope you understand this.

Thanks

Peta -

-- In Autism Treatment , CarolineTraa@...

wrote:

>

> It is absolutely not true Natasa! These people make my blood boil!!

Sorry if

> someone has answered this already just cannot stop myself!! Your

child can

> have normal looking BMs once a day and still be impacted.... They

can have

> constipation alternating with dairrhoea and still be impacted but

the mosta

> astounding thing about these kids is that they sometimes dont go to

the loo for

> days and the stool is soft! This is not CONSTIPATION, thats when

faeces

> remains in your gut and more and more water becomes absorbed form

it in the lower

> colon, got the images in my head right now are lectures form when

I was a

> student!! Thats what she will have learnded too believe me, the

soft stool should

> be ringing alarm bells for her at the very least! A doctor cannot

ever feel

> if our kids are overloaded (IMPACTED) well very rarely IMHO

because the stool

> is soft. When normal guts have constipationa and havent gone for

weeks, you

> feel all the hard little rabbit droppings inside. Christ if I

lived there I

> would be coming to that bloody GP with you and she would be x-

raying him after

> that. BELIEVE ME!

>

> So over na dout in Aberdeenshire

> AKA Caroline

> xxx

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Jepson showed us some x-rays at the conference I attended not too

long ago and the impactions were even obvious to me. Of course, he

was choosing extreme examples, but you could also see the pockets of

air in the impaction. It appeared to me that when a child is full of

poop--whether it be hard or soft--an x-ray can pick it up.

If it is hard, as is not always (maybe even often) the case like

Caroline said, then one might be able to feel it with the hands.

This happened to a teenager I know, completely NT, who went to 1/2

dozen doctors in 4 years and not one bothered to feel his stomach in

spite of the symptoms he had (diarhhea, pain, plenty of discomfort

after eating, etc). They all told him he was lactose intolerant!

Argh!

The problem with trying a clear-out without the knowledge of what is

in there is this: are you doing the right thing? And, if you are,

how do you know when you're done? In spite of information that I've

learned on this list about 35/36 kids having impactions in spite of

flat stomachs and daily poops, I still am undecided if my son has an

impaction. It could be something else. Another mom I know worked

out most of her son's problems by learning that his bowel was longer

than normal.

Natasa, I hope you take Caroline up on her offer to help you arrange

an x-ray. It is outrageous that you cannot get one. I went to a DAN

doctor and getting one was as simple as asking. That is how it

should be. Just knowing that I'll be getting some definitive answers

very soon has lessened the stress I feel about my son's belly.

Anita,

who is eagerly waiting the results of Thursday's x-ray

>

> Fascinating fecal discussion.........

>

> THere is obviously no clear signs....

> Bowel problems are differing, but there are problems, obviously

with

> " bowel movements " making som impacted with hard stools, (

impaction)

> and some with soft stools, still not going to toilet..

> I guess this will not show anything special on x-ray -

> it have to be hard / dry to show as an impaction on an x- ray ??

>

> Still this problem is so common with ASD children, that perhaps

every ASD

> ought to have a " plain abdominal X-ray " ??

>

> Or is it just an extra unnecessary test,

> - like every ASD should do a " clear out " anyway with

> , Vitamin C, MgO / Oxypowder or other enema anyway ???

>

> Geir Flatabö

>

> _>

[Guest guest]

,

I wanted to ask you, do you notice that your son seemed too heavy for

his size? That might seem like a dumb question, but maybe that's a

red flag for some of us. A kid with skinny legs and arms but seems

to weigh a ton when you pick him up.

Anita

>

> > I guess this will not show anything special on x-ray -

> > it have to be hard / dry to show as an impaction on an x- ray ??

> >

> Not in our case Geir, Joes stools are soft exactly as Caroline

> described (you are scary when you're angry Caroline!!) but showed

> significant impaction on xray,

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I wanted to ask you, do you notice that your son seemed too heavy for

> his size?

Hi Anita,

Possibly yes, but I'm not sure!! Joe is very heavy but he is a big 8

year old the size of a 10 year old, can't say whether he is heavier

than other 8/10 year olds of similar size as I don't know any well

enough to lift them up!!

Sorry not much help