Dilation of pupils

[Guest guest]

Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt, had

dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had pinprick

pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some sort of

brain damage.

Thanks

Peta

[Guest guest]

Stress is one possibility -- fight or flight reaction produces small

pupils. Oversensitivity to light?

Sally

peta3366 wrote:

Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt,

had

dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had pinprick

pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some sort of

brain damage.

Thanks

Peta

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date: 05/12/2006

[Guest guest]

Its actually a sign of adrenal fatigue. Slow pupil reaction times are

a very good indicator of adrenal issues. I wouldn't take that one

instance as being definitive, but certainly something to investigate

further. I don't know what the signs of adrenal fatigue in kids are

off-hand, but I'm sure Andy Cutler has written about it extensively on

the other list.

.

Stress is one possibility -- fight or flight reaction produces small

pupils. Oversensitivity to light?

Sally

peta3366 wrote:

>

> Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt, had

> dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had pinprick

> pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some sort of

> brain damage.

> Thanks

> Peta

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date:

05/12/2006

[Guest guest]

OOps I misread the initial post.

Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy reaction to

the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are bad

(means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this case it

almost certainly means nothing.

.

> >

> > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt, had

> > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had pinprick

> > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some

sort of

> > brain damage.

> > Thanks

> > Peta

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date:

> 05/12/2006

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone has

and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in their

eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point

pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and is

a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)

Peta-

-- In Autism Treatment , " jgarcia3788 "

wrote:

>

> OOps I misread the initial post.

>

> Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy reaction to

> the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are bad

> (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this case

it

> almost certainly means nothing.

>

> .

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt,

had

> > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had

pinprick

> > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some

> sort of

> > > brain damage.

> > > Thanks

> > > Peta

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date:

> > 05/12/2006

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In Autism ( and addiction)

small non reacting - miotic pupils usually is an opiate effect,

if large pupils - it can be sign of a abstinence reaction.

It is common to follow the effect of gfcf diet by looking at pupils.

Geir Flatabø

> Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt, had

> dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had pinprick

> pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some sort of

> brain damage.

> Thanks

> Peta

>

>

>

> DISCLAIMER

> No information contained in this post is to be construed as medical advice. If

you need medical advice, please seek it from a suitably qualified practitioner.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ours started out with hugely large pupils in reaction to light, now will dilate in reaction to light, which I thought was normal.

Re: Dilation of pupils

In Autism ( and addiction)small non reacting - miotic pupils usually is an opiate effect,if large pupils - it can be sign of a abstinence reaction.It is common to follow the effect of gfcf diet by looking at pupils.Geir FlatabøOn 12/6/06, peta3366 <peta3366 (DOT) co.uk> wrote:> Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt, had> dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had pinprick> pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some sort of> brain damage.> Thanks> Peta>>>> DISCLAIMER> No information contained in this post is to be construed as medical advice. If you need medical advice, please seek it from a suitably qualified practitioner.>>

[Guest guest]

Inappropriate pupil response is one of the signs of toxicity that

our 21 year old has dealt with for years. Even in the brightest of

lights, when the pupil should get smaller to reduce the amount of

light flooding the eye, she has had huge pupils. Only after a couple

of years of chelation did I begin to see more appropriate response.

If you stand in darkness your pupils get large to allow more light.

When you're exposed to much light-sun, flashlight shone in eye etc

then your pupils get smaller. I can only imagine the visual

distortion[and probably damage] that occurs when the pupil does not

get smaller to dim some of the bright sunlight etc and a constant

flood of bright light hits the retina.

-- In Autism Treatment , " peta3366 "

wrote:

>

> Hi

> I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone

has

> and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in

their

> eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point

> pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and

is

> a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)

> Peta-

>

> -- In Autism Treatment , " jgarcia3788 "

> <jgarcia3788@> wrote:

> >

> > OOps I misread the initial post.

> >

> > Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy

reaction to

> > the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are

bad

> > (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this

case

> it

> > almost certainly means nothing.

> >

> > .

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's

Nt,

> had

> > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had

> pinprick

> > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its

some

> > sort of

> > > > brain damage.

> > > > Thanks

> > > > Peta

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release

Date:

> > > 05/12/2006

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry to sound like a bore, but those same calcium mechanisms that are

messed up all over our kids' bodies (neuro, immune, gastro etc) are also

expressed in the retina, therefore we see a range of abnormal reactions

to light, colour processing, visual orientation...

the same/similar is at play in auditory sistems, often resulting for

example in either exaggarated sound sensitiviry or lack/delayed reaction

to sounds.

pinprick pupils are the right reaction to flash light, but most of the

time the pupils would react with delay, after the photo has been taken.

if you could try and take a photo of both of them in natural light (no

flash on camera), so that they are both looking at the same direction in

terms of light source (either both in the shadow or both facing the

light at the same angle) it would be interesting to see whether the same

things happens again.

Natasa

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's

> Nt,

> > had

> > > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had

> > pinprick

> > > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its

> some

> > > sort of

> > > > > brain damage.

> > > > > Thanks

> > > > > Peta

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release

> Date:

> > > > 05/12/2006

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

So this means that my NT son has a problem with toxicity or he

fancied the photographer but he's only 8 so I doubt that! I'm pretty

confused now and I started the thread!

Peta-

-- In Autism Treatment , " mbrookh "

wrote:

>

> Inappropriate pupil response is one of the signs of toxicity that

> our 21 year old has dealt with for years. Even in the brightest of

> lights, when the pupil should get smaller to reduce the amount of

> light flooding the eye, she has had huge pupils. Only after a

couple

> of years of chelation did I begin to see more appropriate response.

> If you stand in darkness your pupils get large to allow more light.

> When you're exposed to much light-sun, flashlight shone in eye etc

> then your pupils get smaller. I can only imagine the visual

> distortion[and probably damage] that occurs when the pupil does not

> get smaller to dim some of the bright sunlight etc and a constant

> flood of bright light hits the retina.

>

>

> -- In Autism Treatment , " peta3366 "

> <peta3366@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi

> > I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone

> has

> > and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in

> their

> > eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin

point

> > pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious

and

> is

> > a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)

> > Peta-

> >

> > -- In Autism Treatment , " jgarcia3788 "

> > <jgarcia3788@> wrote:

> > >

> > > OOps I misread the initial post.

> > >

> > > Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy

> reaction to

> > > the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which

are

> bad

> > > (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this

> case

> > it

> > > almost certainly means nothing.

> > >

> > > .

> > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's

> Nt,

> > had

> > > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had

> > pinprick

> > > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its

> some

> > > sort of

> > > > > brain damage.

> > > > > Thanks

> > > > > Peta

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release

> Date:

> > > > 05/12/2006

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Gosh, have a look at this one:

[Glutamic acid group poisoning. So-called Chinese restaurant syndrome]

[Article in German] Rudin O et al

After

eating a soup 10 persons (out of 100) fell sick; within 10 minutes they

suffered from nervous muscle convulsions, trembling, mouth desiccation

and dilatation of the pupils. The soup contained glutamate as flavour

enhancer in an unusually high concentration of 31 grams per litre.

PMID: 2573344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

sounds a bit like seizures our kids experience, doesn't it??

Neuropharmacology. 1997 Feb;36(2):135-43.

Impairment of pupillary responses and optokinetic nystagmus in the mGluR6-deficient mouse.

Iwakabe H et al Department of Biological Sciences, Kyoto University Faculty of Medicine, Japan.

Retinal

bipolar cells receive glutamatergic transmission from photoreceptors

and mediate a key process in segregating visual signals into ON-center

and OFF-center pathways. The segregation of ON responses involves a G

protein-coupled metabotropic glutamate receptor (mGluR). The mGluR6

subtype is expressed restrictedly at the postsynaptic site of retinal

ON-bipolar cells. Ablation of mGluR6 in the ON-bipolar cells by gene

targeting results in a loss of ON responses but unchanged OFF responses

in visual transmission. Thus, mGluR6 is essential for inducing ON

responses. The aims of this study are analyses of visual responsiveness

and possible visual dysfunction in mGluR6-deficient mice. We report

here that mGluR6-deficient mice have unaltered locomotor activity in a

daily light-dark cycle and exhibit light-stimulated induction of Fos

immunoreactivity in the suprachiasmatic nucleus. These findings

indicate that mGluR6-deficient mice are capable or responding to light

stimulation. The mGluR6 deficiency, however, markedly reduces the

sensitivity of pupillary responses to light stimulus and severely

impairs the ability to drive optokinetic nystagmus in response to

visual contrasts. This study thus demonstrates that mGluR6 contributes

to discrimination of visual contrasts.

PMID: 9144650 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

note that G-protein is the pertussis toxin sensitive (Dtp vaccine!)

one, the one that Dr Megson treats with Vit A + CLO protocol, as

noticed this is probably the mechanism that it effects...

these above glutamate-activated receptors are linked to L-type calcium

channels, which are widely expressed in the body (both pre and

post-sympathetically, and also on the main cell membrane/body, and by

all indicators badly messed up in autism):

Mol Neurobiol. 1996 Aug;13(1):81-95.

Links The modulation of calcium currents by the activation of mGluRs. Functional implications.

Stefani A et al Clinica Neurologica, Universita di Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy.

Glutamatergic transmission in the central nervous

system (CNS) is mediated by ionotropic, ligand-gated receptors

(iGluRs), and metabotropic receptors (mGluRs). mGluRs are coupled to

GTP-binding regulatory proteins (G-proteins) and modulate different

second messenger pathways. Multiple effects have been described

following their activation; among others, regulation of fast synaptic

transmission, changes in synaptic plasticity, and modification of the

threshold for seizure generation. Some of the major roles played by the

activation of mGluRs might depend on the modulation of

high-voltage-activated (HVA) calcium (Ca2+) currents. Some HVA Ca2+

channels (N-, P-, and Q-type channels) are signaling components at most

presynaptic active zones. Their mGluR-mediated inhibition reduces

synaptic transmission. The interference, by agonists at mGluRs, on

L-type channels might affect the repetitive neuronal firing behavior

and the integration of complex events at the somatic level. In

addition, the mGluR-mediated effects on voltage-gated Ca2+ signals have

been suggested to strongly influence neurotoxicity. Rather different

coupling mechanisms underlie the relation between mGluRs and Ca2+

currents: Together with a fast, membrane-delimited mechanism of action,

much slower responses, involving intracellular second messengers, have

also been postulated. In the recent past, the relative paucity of

selective agonists and antagonists for the different subclasses of

mGluRs had hampered the clear definition of the roles of mGluRs in

brain function. However, the recent availability of new pharmacological

tools is promising to provide a better understanding of the neuronal

functions related to different mGluR subtypes. The analysis of the

mGluR-mediated modulation of Ca2+ conductances will probably offer new

insights into the characterization of synaptic transmission and the

development of neuroprotective agents.

PMID: 8892337 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's> > Nt,> > > had> > > > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had> > > pinprick> > > > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its> > some> > > > sort of> > > > > > brain damage.> > > > > > Thanks> > > > > > Peta> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.> > > > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release> > Date:> > > > > 05/12/2006> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Nah, I think it's a red herring that's started a legitimate debate.

Tom constantly looks as if he fancies you. And thank god for that

because people respond to him better.

Your NT son might have been looking into a darker place immediately

before the pic was taken, you have no way of knowing. Or they may

have had the " red eye " setting function going but only your ASD child

was focused on it. It makes your pupils smaller to avoid red eye with

a pre flash. Now you're worrying about your NT child - I wouldn't!

Steph x

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross,

who's

> > Nt,

> > > had

> > > > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo,

had

> > > pinprick

> > > > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume

its

> > some

> > > > sort of

> > > > > > brain damage.

> > > > > > Thanks

> > > > > > Peta

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release

> > Date:

> > > > > 05/12/2006

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Actually dilation means to widen become bigger, not become pinpricks.

This was a normal reaction to the flash photography.

[Guest guest]

>

> In Autism ( and addiction)

> small non reacting - miotic pupils usually is an opiate effect,

> if large pupils - it can be sign of a abstinence reaction.

>

> It is common to follow the effect of gfcf diet by looking at pupils.

>

> Geir Flatabø

Geir,

Could you comment on this more please? My son's pupils have been very

large since I can remember. Definitely not from birth, but I cannot

say exactly when this problem started.

We went GFCF with him almost immediately after the severe part of his

regression, with wonderful results (but I didn't note the pupils at

that time). We lost most of those gains and eventually left gfcf. Now

we're back gfcf for almost 5 weeks. His pupils are still as large as

ever and we have evidence that his pain tolerance, which *seemed* to

have normalized somewhat is actually totally askew. We also haven't

seen any clear evidence in his behaviour that GFCF is working,

particularly when you consider the considerable response he had the

first time.

How soon after going gfcf would one expect to see changes in the pupils

if, in fact, GFCf was working as a result of diminished opioid effect?

And are these changes something that a parent could monitor just by

looking, or would special steps need to be taken?

Thanks so much for your help,

Anita

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mandi,

Do you remember at what point of chelation? We're at round 50 here

with no change on that front.

Anita

>

>

> In a message dated 06/12/2006 15:53:54 GMT Standard Time,

> Moroza-@... writes:

>

> Hi, I知 trying very hard to follow this thread. Tom has permanently

dilated

> pupils. What might that indicate? Does anyone know? Sara

>

>

> >>Toxicity of some sort, metals, maybe retained immature reflexes.

Sam's

> went back to normal with chelation

>

> Mandi x

>

[Guest guest]

>>

> As the discussion lots of factors contribute to the " problem " ,

> Large pupils from my experience could be seen with high ammonia,

> have that been tested ( urinary and stool pH ?. ).

Haven't had this test done. Can it be done at home with the pH

papers? Other testing has indicated possible ammonia issues;

however, we've been low protein for 5 weeks now and using AKA for

part of that time with no noticeable benefit. Other anti-ammonia

steps have not been taken because Canada Post lost my parcel

containing all the supps to address it (insert profanity).

>

> Any evidence about if there is still peptides in the urine ?? Have

you

> done control urinary peptide assay ? - Using only Naturally gluten

> free products, and no soy ?

Haven't done the peptide assay. He's always been soy free. Gluten

free for five weeks with no improvement I can pinpoint. He did have

an infraction four days ago with no discernible problem.

>

> If al this have been done, the ordinary DAN - next step - would be

> looking at SCF diet and / or Low Oxalate diet .

> A common problem when going into gfcf diet is increased starch

content

> in food, that foster lots of bad bugs, Clostridia, Bacteroides and

> yests.

We did go low oxalate for only 8 days, even though he had none of the

signs considered promising for this diet, but all we got was severe

constipation. I realize this mayt be a sign of dumping oxalates, but

it seemed much more likely a sign of a complete lack of fibre in the

LOD I was able to get into him.

>

> > How soon after going gfcf would one expect to see changes in the

pupils

> > if, in fact, GFCf was working as a result of diminished opioid

effect?

>

> Well larg pupils could be seen as a result of gfcf diet, - for how

> long they should stay large, i really don`t know, but maybe 3 months

> or so like other abstinence reactions. ??

Thanks for this.

> I know of no other practical way than look at the pupil, and make an

> estimate - at the same light conditions...

Which I shall be doing.

Geir, thank you for taking the time. I certainly appreciate it.

Anita

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

We've been very low glutamic acid, free and otherwise, for the last 5

weeks and I've not noticed any difference in my son's pupils. I'm

very sure we've done a good job keeping him clean as he gets no

processed foods; we've even taken out his beloved spaghetti and

tomato sauce.

Anita

>

> Anybody interested in the glutamate associatin with dilatation of

pupils, could they keep an eye on this and watch out for high

gluatmate foods, ie bread/cereals, corn, tomatoes and mushrooms and

parmesan cheese.

>

> Not to forget MSG found everywhere and also in drug

prescriptions......

>

>

>

>