Re: Re: Dilation of pupils

[Guest guest]

Also drug addicts have pin point pupils.

Actually drug addicts have either dilated or restricted depending on the type of drug they use! A restricted pupil indicates depressant usage (opiates, heroin) and a dilated pupil indicates stimulant usage.

[Guest guest]

Inappropriate pupil response is one of the signs of toxicity that our 21 year old has dealt with for years. Even in the brightest of lights, when the pupil should get smaller to reduce the amount of light flooding the eye, she has had huge pupils

>>>I am sure I read that this can be ammoia related too - must have got that from Yasko somewhere along the line. Sam had dilated pupils most of the time, this has resolved with chelation

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

Hi, I知 trying very hard to follow this thread. Tom has permanently dilated pupils. What might that indicate? Does anyone know? Sara

>>Toxicity of some sort, metals, maybe retained immature reflexes. Sam's went back to normal with chelation

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

I think they shrink to reduce the amount of light coming in and protect

the eye. They widen in low light to absorb as much light as possible.

There is also a relationship to pleasure. Our pupils widen when they

look at something they like. Photos of men/women with artificially

widened pupils are rated as more attractive by viewers (ie they see the

photographed person as responding warmly to them). This is an

uncontrollable process so quite a good guide as to whether someone

fancies you or not. (possibly not relevant here)

Sally

peta3366 wrote:

Hi

I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone has

and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in their

eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point

pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and is

a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)

Peta-

-- In Autism-Biomedical-

Europe@grou ps.com, "jgarcia3788"

<jgarcia3788@ ...> wrote:

>

> OOps I misread the initial post.

>

> Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy reaction

to

> the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are

bad

> (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this case

it

> almost certainly means nothing.

>

> .

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross,

who's Nt,

had

> > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo,

had

pinprick

> > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume

its some

> sort of

> > > brain damage.

> > > Thanks

> > > Peta

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 -

Release Date:

> > 05/12/2006

> >

>

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date: 05/12/2006

[Guest guest]

Hi, I’m

trying very hard to follow this thread. Tom has permanently dilated pupils. What

might that indicate? Does anyone know? Sara

Re: Dilation of pupils

Hi

I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone has

and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in their

eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point

pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and is

a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)

Peta-

-- In Autism Treatment ,

" jgarcia3788 "

wrote:

>

> OOps I misread the initial post.

>

> Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy reaction to

> the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are bad

> (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this case

it

> almost certainly means nothing.

>

> .

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt,

had

> > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had

pinprick

> > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some

> sort of

> > > brain damage.

> > > Thanks

> > > Peta

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date:

> > 05/12/2006

> >

>

--

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 04/12/2006

--

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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[Guest guest]

And what is Dr Megsons Vit A+ CLO protocol ??Could you elaborate..

http://www.megson.com/index.html scroll down and her papers at the bottom. Basically preloading with higher than RDA CLO and add Bethanocol after 6 weeks priming, switch those G-Alpha Protiens back the right way (or not in Sam's case we just finshed up with it)

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

And what is Dr Megsons Vit A+ CLO protocol ??Could you elaborate..

http://www.megson.com/index.html scroll down and her papers at the bottom. Basically preloading with higher than RDA CLO and add Bethanocol after 6 weeks priming, switch those G-Alpha Protiens back the right way (or not in Sam's case we just finshed up with it)

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

Sara,

I don't know for sure what this means, but cod liver oil was instrumental in getting our girl's eyes to dilate appropriately to light. My NT dd's eyes also did not dilate properly to light, so thinking this is not as big an issue as thought. The clo also stopped the sideways glancing that she would do when pointing something out to us. Geesh I hate to think of how bad her vision was. Maybe it's the A in the clo?

You might try Cutler's modified A protocol which consists of 500-1000 IU of A per lb of kid. I was never brave enough to use 400,000 IU for the two days, this method works just as well, but takes longer. We used the upper limit for about two months and then the lower limit for about 4 more months. But her vision had been clear before we started the A protocol.

RE: Re: Dilation of pupils

Hi, I’m trying very hard to follow this thread. Tom has permanently dilated pupils. What might that indicate? Does anyone know? Sara

-----Original Message-----From: Autism Treatment [mailto:Autism Treatment ] On Behalf Of peta3366Sent: 06 December 2006 14:13Autism Treatment Subject: Re: Dilation of pupils

Hi I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone has and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in their eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and is a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)Peta> > >> > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt, had> > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had pinprick> > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some> sort of> > > brain damage.> > > Thanks> > > Peta> > >> > >> > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date:> > 05/12/2006> >>

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 04/12/2006

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[Guest guest]

But the damage is totally reversible, our's was checked out by a developmental optometrist about 7 months after the start of chelation and he could find no problems with her vision or convergence issues.

Last summer (2nd visit) he said her eyes and the blood vessels around them look "wonderful", some of the best he has ever seen. It is correctible.

Re: Dilation of pupils

Inappropriate pupil response is one of the signs of toxicity that our 21 year old has dealt with for years. Even in the brightest of lights, when the pupil should get smaller to reduce the amount of light flooding the eye, she has had huge pupils. Only after a couple of years of chelation did I begin to see more appropriate response. If you stand in darkness your pupils get large to allow more light. When you're exposed to much light-sun, flashlight shone in eye etc then your pupils get smaller. I can only imagine the visual distortion[and probably damage] that occurs when the pupil does not get smaller to dim some of the bright sunlight etc and a constant flood of bright light hits the retina. -- In Autism Treatment , "peta3366" wrote:>> Hi > I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone has > and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in their > eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point > pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and is > a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)> Peta-> > -- In Autism Treatment , "jgarcia3788" > <jgarcia3788@> wrote:> >> > OOps I misread the initial post.> > > > Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy reaction to> > the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are bad> > (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this case > it> > almost certainly means nothing. > > > > .> > > > > > > >> > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt, > had> > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had > pinprick> > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some> > sort of> > > > brain damage.> > > > Thanks> > > > Peta> > > >> > > >> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.> > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date:> > > 05/12/2006> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Yes,

Tom would happily shine a torch or other bright light into his eyes and his

pupils would not shrink. So, it’s just general toxicity then? Thanks

. Sara

Re: Dilation of pupils

Inappropriate

pupil response is one of the signs of toxicity that

our 21 year old has dealt with for years. Even in the brightest of

lights, when the pupil should get smaller to reduce the amount of

light flooding the eye, she has had huge pupils. Only after a couple

of years of chelation did I begin to see more appropriate response.

If you stand in darkness your pupils get large to allow more light.

When you're exposed to much light-sun, flashlight shone in eye etc

then your pupils get smaller. I can only imagine the visual

distortion[and probably damage] that occurs when the pupil does not

get smaller to dim some of the bright sunlight etc and a constant

flood of bright light hits the retina.

-- In Autism Treatment ,

" peta3366 "

wrote:

>

> Hi

> I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone

has

> and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in

their

> eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point

> pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and

is

> a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)

> Peta-

>

> -- In Autism Treatment ,

" jgarcia3788 "

> <jgarcia3788@> wrote:

> >

> > OOps I misread the initial post.

> >

> > Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy

reaction to

> > the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are

bad

> > (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this

case

> it

> > almost certainly means nothing.

> >

> > .

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's

Nt,

> had

> > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had

> pinprick

> > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its

some

> > sort of

> > > > brain damage.

> > > > Thanks

> > > > Peta

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release

Date:

> > > 05/12/2006

> > >

> >

>

--

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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[Guest guest]

Natasa, Is there anything in the below study which may throw new light on the pupils?? It's still a little confusing to me but I note that theanine can be associated with reduction of sympathetic nervous system activation. Sympathetic overdrive is what keeps those pupils always dilated..... l-Theanine reduces psychological and physiological stress responses. Kimura K, Ozeki M, Juneja LR, Ohira H. Nagoya University Department of Psychology, Chikusa-ku, Nagoya, 464-8601, Japan. l-Theanine is an amino acid contained in green tea leaves which is known to block the binding of l-glutamic acid to glutamate receptors in the brain. Because the characteristics of l-Theanine suggest that it may influence psychological and physiological states under stress, the present study examined these possible effects in a laboratory setting using a mental arithmetic task as an acute stressor. Twelve participants underwent four separate

trials: one in which they took l-Theanine at the start of an experimental procedure, one in which they took l-Theanine midway, and two control trials in which they either took a placebo or nothing. The experimental sessions were performed by double-blind, and the order of them was counterbalanced. The results showed that l-Theanine intake resulted in a reduction in the heart rate (HR) and salivary immunoglobulin A (s-IgA) responses to an acute stress task relative to the placebo control condition. Moreover, analyses of heart rate variability indicated that the reductions in HR and s-IgA were likely attributable to an attenuation of sympathetic nervous activation. Thus, it was suggested that the oral intake of l-Theanine could cause anti-stress effects via the inhibition of cortical neuron excitation. PMID: 16930802 [PubMed - in process]natasa778 wrote: Sorry to sound like a bore, but those same calcium mechanisms that aremessed up all over our kids' bodies (neuro, immune, gastro etc) are alsoexpressed in the retina, therefore we see a range of abnormal reactionsto light, colour processing, visual orientation...the same/similar is at play in auditory sistems, often resulting forexample in either exaggarated sound sensitiviry or lack/delayed reactionto sounds.pinprick pupils are the right reaction to flash light, but most of thetime the pupils would react with delay, after the photo

has been taken.if you could try and take a photo of both of them in natural light (noflash on camera), so that they are both looking at the same direction interms of light source (either both in the shadow or both facing thelight at the same angle) it would be interesting to see whether the samethings happens again.Natasa> > > > >> > > > > Hi we recently had our boys

school photo taken. Ross, who's> Nt,> > had> > > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had> > pinprick> > > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its> some> > > sort of> > > > > brain damage.> > > > > Thanks> > > > > Peta> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.> > > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release> Date:> > > > 05/12/2006> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

-- What would be the Urecholine dosage, and formula, -- capsules, Pills ?? From Italy ??

>>>The brand I have here from the Breakspear is Myotonine made by Glenwood Labs in Kent here in the UK. It comes as 10mg tabs and Dr Heard has us do 1/4 tab for test dose and then 1/2 so 5mg twice per day for a month to see if any change. I did 2 weeks at 5mg and 2 weeks at 10mg and saw nothing, put that one on the done pile and off we go again!

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

-- What would be the Urecholine dosage, and formula, -- capsules, Pills ?? From Italy ??

>>>The brand I have here from the Breakspear is Myotonine made by Glenwood Labs in Kent here in the UK. It comes as 10mg tabs and Dr Heard has us do 1/4 tab for test dose and then 1/2 so 5mg twice per day for a month to see if any change. I did 2 weeks at 5mg and 2 weeks at 10mg and saw nothing, put that one on the done pile and off we go again!

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Tom’s had lots of eye problems. He had

‘funny eyes’ or ‘autistic eyes’ as we called them which

meant looking out of the corners, looking at things at funny angles and

screwing his eyes up and opening his mouth. CLO didn’t get rid of them

but CLO plus GLA plus rubbing in 3/6/9 plus lots of fish oils

did get rid of them. we have since done the mega dose vit A which didn’t

affect his eyes. However, his ‘funny eyes’ have all just

returned with LDN but I’m hoping it’s temporary. None of these

treatments have helped with dilated pupils. Have just read Natasha’s post

and it makes sense that it’s just one of a whole host of things that have

gone awry. I was just looking for a magic cure, that’s all J

Sara

Re:

Re: Dilation of pupils

Sara,

I don't know for sure what

this means, but cod liver oil was instrumental in getting our girl's eyes to

dilate appropriately to light. My NT dd's eyes also did not dilate properly to

light, so thinking this is not as big an issue as thought. The clo also stopped

the sideways glancing that she would do when pointing something out to us.

Geesh I hate to think of how bad her vision was. Maybe it's the A in the clo?

You might try Cutler's modified

A protocol which consists of 500-1000 IU of A per lb of kid. I was never brave

enough to use 400,000 IU for the two days, this method works just as well, but

takes longer. We used the upper limit for about two months and then the lower

limit for about 4 more months. But her vision had been clear before we

started the A protocol.

Re: Dilation of pupils

Hi

I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone has

and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in their

eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point

pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and is

a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)

Peta-

-- In Autism Treatment ,

" jgarcia3788 "

wrote:

>

> OOps I misread the initial post.

>

> Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy reaction to

> the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are bad

> (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this case

it

> almost certainly means nothing.

>

> .

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt,

had

> > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had

pinprick

> > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some

> sort of

> > > brain damage.

> > > Thanks

> > > Peta

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date:

> > 05/12/2006

> >

>

--

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Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 04/12/2006

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Tom’s had lots of eye problems. He had

‘funny eyes’ or ‘autistic eyes’ as we called them which

meant looking out of the corners, looking at things at funny angles and

screwing his eyes up and opening his mouth. CLO didn’t get rid of them

but CLO plus GLA plus rubbing in 3/6/9 plus lots of fish oils

did get rid of them. we have since done the mega dose vit A which didn’t

affect his eyes. However, his ‘funny eyes’ have all just

returned with LDN but I’m hoping it’s temporary. None of these

treatments have helped with dilated pupils. Have just read Natasha’s post

and it makes sense that it’s just one of a whole host of things that have

gone awry. I was just looking for a magic cure, that’s all J

Sara

Re:

Re: Dilation of pupils

Sara,

I don't know for sure what

this means, but cod liver oil was instrumental in getting our girl's eyes to

dilate appropriately to light. My NT dd's eyes also did not dilate properly to

light, so thinking this is not as big an issue as thought. The clo also stopped

the sideways glancing that she would do when pointing something out to us.

Geesh I hate to think of how bad her vision was. Maybe it's the A in the clo?

You might try Cutler's modified

A protocol which consists of 500-1000 IU of A per lb of kid. I was never brave

enough to use 400,000 IU for the two days, this method works just as well, but

takes longer. We used the upper limit for about two months and then the lower

limit for about 4 more months. But her vision had been clear before we

started the A protocol.

Re: Dilation of pupils

Hi

I thought pupils should dilate when exposed to light. If someone has

and accident ( and seems unconcious) then a light is shone in their

eyes to see if the pupils dilate. Also drug addicts have pin point

pupils. I'm sure it means something other than he's unconcious and is

a drug addict! (gf/cf and quite a few other f's here!)

Peta-

-- In Autism Treatment ,

" jgarcia3788 "

wrote:

>

> OOps I misread the initial post.

>

> Small pupils are *good* in a photo - they show a healthy reaction to

> the flash. Its pupils which are too large for too long which are bad

> (means they aren't reacting to the light in time). So in this case

it

> almost certainly means nothing.

>

> .

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's Nt,

had

> > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had

pinprick

> > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its some

> sort of

> > > brain damage.

> > > Thanks

> > > Peta

> > >

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date:

> > 05/12/2006

> >

>

--

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[Guest guest]

On 12/6/06, natasa778 <neno@...> wrote:

note that G-protein is the pertussis toxin sensitive (Dtp vaccine!)

one, the one that Dr Megson treats with Vit A + CLO protocol, as

noticed this is probably the mechanism that it effects...- And what is Dr Megsons Vit A+ CLO protocol ??Could you elaborate.. Geir Flatavbø

[Guest guest]

FineI`m not able to find the doses she uses / used...except from: cod liver oil (5,000 IU of Vitamin A, given in 2500 IU/b.i.d.). - follow up--- lower daily doses of Urocholine (12.5 mg bid) -- What would be the Urecholine dosage, and formula, --

capsules, Pills ?? From Italy ??Geir FlatabøOn 12/6/06, Mum231ASD@... <

Mum231ASD@...> wrote:

In a message dated 06/12/2006 20:29:05 GMT Standard Time, geirf@... writes:

And what is Dr Megsons Vit A+ CLO protocol ??Could you elaborate..

http://www.megson.com/index.html scroll down and her papers at the bottom. Basically preloading with higher than RDA CLO and add Bethanocol after 6 weeks priming, switch those G-Alpha Protiens back the right way (or not in Sam's case we just finshed up with it)

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

Hello Geir,

I would be really grateful if you could

explain what ‘abstinence reaction’ means. Thanks very much,

Sara

Re: Dilation of pupils

>

> In Autism ( and addiction)

> small non reacting - miotic pupils usually is an opiate effect,

> if large pupils - it can be sign of a abstinence reaction.

>

> It is common to follow the effect of gfcf diet by looking at pupils.

>

> Geir Flatabø

Geir,

Could you comment on this more please? My son's pupils have been very

large since I can remember. Definitely not from birth, but I cannot

say exactly when this problem started.

We went GFCF with him almost immediately after the severe part of his

regression, with wonderful results (but I didn't note the pupils at

that time). We lost most of those gains and eventually left gfcf. Now

we're back gfcf for almost 5 weeks. His pupils are still as large as

ever and we have evidence that his pain tolerance, which *seemed* to

have normalized somewhat is actually totally askew. We also haven't

seen any clear evidence in his behaviour that GFCF is working,

particularly when you consider the considerable response he had the

first time.

How soon after going gfcf would one expect to see changes in the pupils

if, in fact, GFCf was working as a result of diminished opioid effect?

And are these changes something that a parent could monitor just by

looking, or would special steps need to be taken?

Thanks so much for your help,

Anita

>

>

--

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[Guest guest]

Hello Geir,

I would be really grateful if you could

explain what ‘abstinence reaction’ means. Thanks very much,

Sara

Re: Dilation of pupils

>

> In Autism ( and addiction)

> small non reacting - miotic pupils usually is an opiate effect,

> if large pupils - it can be sign of a abstinence reaction.

>

> It is common to follow the effect of gfcf diet by looking at pupils.

>

> Geir Flatabø

Geir,

Could you comment on this more please? My son's pupils have been very

large since I can remember. Definitely not from birth, but I cannot

say exactly when this problem started.

We went GFCF with him almost immediately after the severe part of his

regression, with wonderful results (but I didn't note the pupils at

that time). We lost most of those gains and eventually left gfcf. Now

we're back gfcf for almost 5 weeks. His pupils are still as large as

ever and we have evidence that his pain tolerance, which *seemed* to

have normalized somewhat is actually totally askew. We also haven't

seen any clear evidence in his behaviour that GFCF is working,

particularly when you consider the considerable response he had the

first time.

How soon after going gfcf would one expect to see changes in the pupils

if, in fact, GFCf was working as a result of diminished opioid effect?

And are these changes something that a parent could monitor just by

looking, or would special steps need to be taken?

Thanks so much for your help,

Anita

>

>

--

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[Guest guest]

DId your ASD kid have the " typical " DPT regression as a reason to try,

or was it only a (half) blind trial ??

Geir Flatabø

On 12/7/06, Mum231ASD@... <Mum231ASD@...> wrote:

In a message dated 06/12/2006 21:37:15 GMT Standard Time, geirf@... writes:

-- What would be the Urecholine dosage, and formula, -- capsules, Pills ?? From Italy ??

>>>The brand I have here from the Breakspear is Myotonine made by Glenwood Labs in Kent here in the UK. It comes as 10mg tabs and Dr Heard has us do 1/4 tab for test dose and then 1/2 so 5mg twice per day for a month to see if any change. I did 2 weeks at 5mg and 2 weeks at 10mg and saw nothing, put that one on the done pile and off we go again!

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

" Abstinence " reaction is used for reactions when you " abstain " from " any drug " .

Usually recogniced for addictive drugs where body physiology have over time got used to and " addicted " to that chemical, typically opiates, benzos, Amphetamines - illegal drugs of any kinds, but lately also obviously seen from SSRI, and Neuroleptics,

then often more slow and difficult to recognise and discover / uncover, but obviously making big problems.

Different reactions are for different " drugs " , so it is difficult to say any general things about it.

Truehope (www.truehope.com) have in their follow up on Empowerplus users made elaborate abstinence schemes to be able to uncover - recognice , and cope with abstinences.

In Autism problem most often is recognized with gluten and casein withdrawal - for up to at least 3 months. EEG changes may use more than 1 year to repair.

It is also obwious difficult to differentiate between abstinence reactions and Herxheimer reactions / microbial die off reactions, when these come at the same time, perhaps intermingled with new - allergy reactions due to introducing ne drugs, food or vitamins etc.

Geir Flatabø

Hello Geir,

I would be really grateful if you could explain what 'abstinence reaction' means. Thanks very much,

Sara

-----Original Message-----From:

Autism Treatment [mailto:Autism Treatment

] On Behalf Of Anita KugelstadtSent: 07 December 2006 01:35

Autism Treatment Subject: Re: Dilation of pupils

>> In Autism ( and addiction)> small non reacting - miotic pupils usually is an opiate effect,> if large pupils - it can be sign of a abstinence reaction.

> > It is common to follow the effect of gfcf diet by looking at pupils.> > Geir Flatab�Geir,Could you comment on this more please? My son's pupils have been very large since I can remember. Definitely not from birth, but I cannot say exactly when this problem started. We went GFCF with him almost immediately after the severe part of his regression, with wonderful results (but I didn't note the pupils at that time). We lost most of those gains and eventually left gfcf. Now we're back gfcf for almost 5 weeks. His pupils are still as large as ever and we have evidence that his pain tolerance, which *seemed* to

have normalized somewhat is actually totally askew. We also haven't seen any clear evidence in his behaviour that GFCF is working, particularly when you consider the considerable response he had the first time.

How soon after going gfcf would one expect to see changes in the pupils if, in fact, GFCf was working as a result of diminished opioid effect? And are these changes something that a parent could monitor just by looking, or would special steps need to be taken?Thanks so much for your help,Anita> >

--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 04/12/2006

--No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 04/12/2006

[Guest guest]

On 12/7/06, Anita Kugelstadt <mysuperteach@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > In Autism ( and addiction)

> > small non reacting - miotic pupils usually is an opiate effect,

> > if large pupils - it can be sign of a abstinence reaction.

> >

> > It is common to follow the effect of gfcf diet by looking at pupils.

> >

> > Geir Flatabø

>

> Geir,

>

> Could you comment on this more please? My son's pupils have been very

> large since I can remember. Definitely not from birth, but I cannot

> say exactly when this problem started.

As the discussion lots of factors contribute to the " problem " ,

Large pupils from my experience could be seen with high ammonia,

have that been tested ( urinary and stool pH ?. ).

>

> We went GFCF with him almost immediately after the severe part of his

> regression, with wonderful results (but I didn't note the pupils at

> that time). We lost most of those gains and eventually left gfcf. Now

> we're back gfcf for almost 5 weeks. His pupils are still as large as

> ever and we have evidence that his pain tolerance, which *seemed* to

> have normalized somewhat is actually totally askew. We also haven't

> seen any clear evidence in his behaviour that GFCF is working,

> particularly when you consider the considerable response he had the

> first time.

Any evidence about if there is still peptides in the urine ?? Have you

done control urinary peptide assay ? - Using only Naturally gluten

free products, and no soy ?

If al this have been done, the ordinary DAN - next step - would be

looking at SCF diet and / or Low Oxalate diet .

A common problem when going into gfcf diet is increased starch content

in food, that foster lots of bad bugs, Clostridia, Bacteroides and

yests.

> How soon after going gfcf would one expect to see changes in the pupils

> if, in fact, GFCf was working as a result of diminished opioid effect?

Well larg pupils could be seen as a result of gfcf diet, - for how

long they should stay large, i really don`t know, but maybe 3 months

or so like other abstinence reactions. ??

> And are these changes something that a parent could monitor just by

> looking, or would special steps need to be taken?>

> Thanks so much for your help,> Anita

I know of no other practical way than look at the pupil, and make an

estimate - at the same light conditions...

Geir Flatabø

>

>

> >

> >

>

>

>

> DISCLAIMER

> No information contained in this post is to be construed as medical advice. If

you need medical advice, please seek it from a suitably qualified practitioner.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anybody interested in the glutamate associatin with dilatation of pupils, could they keep an eye on this and watch out for high gluatmate foods, ie bread/cereals, corn, tomatoes and mushrooms and parmesan cheese. Not to forget MSG found everywhere and also in drug prescriptions...... natasa778 wrote: Gosh, have a look at this one:[Glutamic acid group poisoning. So-called Chinese restaurant

syndrome][Article in German] Rudin O et alAfter eating a soup 10 persons (out of 100) fell sick; within 10 minutes they suffered from nervous muscle convulsions, trembling, mouth desiccation and dilatation of the pupils. The soup contained glutamate as flavour enhancer in an unusually high concentration of 31 grams per litre.PMID: 2573344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]sounds a bit like seizures our kids experience, doesn't it?? Neuropharmacology. 1997 Feb;36(2):135-43. <> Impairment of pupillary responses and optokinetic nystagmus in the mGluR6-deficient mouse.Iwakabe H et al Department of Biological Sciences, Kyoto University Faculty of Medicine, Japan.Retinal bipolar cells receive glutamatergic transmission from photoreceptors and mediate a key process in segregating visual signals into ON-center and OFF-center pathways. The segregation of ON responses involves a G protein-coupled metabotropic glutamate receptor (mGluR). The mGluR6 subtype is expressed restrictedly at the postsynaptic site of retinal ON-bipolar cells.

Ablation of mGluR6 in the ON-bipolar cells by gene targeting results in a loss of ON responses but unchanged OFF responses in visual transmission. Thus, mGluR6 is essential for inducing ON responses. The aims of this study are analyses of visual responsiveness and possible visual dysfunction in mGluR6-deficient mice. We report here that mGluR6-deficient mice have unaltered locomotor activity in a daily light-dark cycle and exhibit light-stimulated induction of Fos immunoreactivity in the suprachiasmatic nucleus. These findings indicate that mGluR6-deficient mice are capable or responding to light stimulation. The mGluR6 deficiency, however, markedly reduces the sensitivity of pupillary responses to light stimulus and severely impairs the ability to drive optokinetic nystagmus in response to visual contrasts. This study thus demonstrates that mGluR6 contributes to discrimination of visual contrasts.PMID: 9144650 [PubMed - indexed for

MEDLINE]note that G-protein is the pertussis toxin sensitive (Dtp vaccine!) one, the one that Dr Megson treats with Vit A + CLO protocol, as noticed this is probably the mechanism that it effects...these above glutamate-activated receptors are linked to L-type calcium channels, which are widely expressed in the body (both pre and post-sympathetically, and also on the main cell membrane/body, and by all indicators badly messed up in autism): Mol Neurobiol. 1996 Aug;13(1):81-95. Links The modulation of calcium currents by the activation of mGluRs. Functional

implications. Stefani A et al Clinica Neurologica, Universita di Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy. Glutamatergic transmission in the central nervous system (CNS) is mediated by ionotropic, ligand-gated receptors (iGluRs), and metabotropic receptors (mGluRs). mGluRs are coupled to GTP-binding regulatory proteins (G-proteins) and modulate different second messenger pathways. Multiple effects have been described following their activation; among others, regulation of fast synaptic transmission, changes in synaptic plasticity, and modification of the threshold for seizure generation. Some of the major roles played by the activation of mGluRs might depend on the modulation of high-voltage-activated (HVA) calcium

(Ca2+) currents. Some HVA Ca2+ channels (N-, P-, and Q-type channels) are signaling components at most presynaptic active zones. Their mGluR-mediated inhibition reduces synaptic transmission. The interference, by agonists at mGluRs, on L-type channels might affect the repetitive neuronal firing behavior and the integration of complex events at the somatic level. In addition, the mGluR-mediated effects on voltage-gated Ca2+ signals have been suggested to strongly influence neurotoxicity. Rather different coupling mechanisms underlie the relation between mGluRs and Ca2+ currents: Together with a fast, membrane-delimited mechanism of action, much slower responses, involving intracellular second messengers, have also been postulated. In the recent past, the relative paucity of selective agonists and antagonists for the different subclasses of mGluRs had hampered the clear definition of the roles of mGluRs in brain function. However, the recent availability of new

pharmacological tools is promising to provide a better understanding of the neuronal functions related to different mGluR subtypes. The analysis of the mGluR-mediated modulation of Ca2+ conductances will probably offer new insights into the characterization of synaptic transmission and the development of neuroprotective agents. PMID: 8892337 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's> > Nt,> > > had> > > > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had> > > pinprick> > > > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its> > some> > > > sort of> > > > > > brain damage.> > > > > > Thanks> > > > > > Peta> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.> > > > > >

Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release> > Date:> > > > > 05/12/2006> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I wasn't explicit enough. Could people keep an eye on consumption of high gluamate foods and whether the children the develop the dilatation. For us, pizzas and gummibears definately caused dilatation. JULIE GRIFFITHS wrote: Anybody interested in the glutamate associatin with dilatation of pupils, could they keep an eye on this and watch out for high gluatmate foods, ie bread/cereals, corn, tomatoes and mushrooms and parmesan

cheese. Not to forget MSG found everywhere and also in drug prescriptions...... natasa778 <nenodalmaholidays (DOT) co.uk> wrote: Gosh, have a look at this one:[Glutamic acid group poisoning. So-called Chinese restaurant syndrome][Article in German] Rudin O et alAfter eating a soup 10 persons (out of 100) fell sick; within 10 minutes they suffered from nervous muscle convulsions, trembling, mouth desiccation and dilatation of the pupils. The soup contained glutamate as flavour enhancer in an unusually high concentration of 31 grams per

litre.PMID: 2573344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]sounds a bit like seizures our kids experience, doesn't it?? Neuropharmacology. 1997 Feb;36(2):135-43. <> Impairment of pupillary responses and optokinetic nystagmus in the mGluR6-deficient mouse.Iwakabe H et al Department of Biological Sciences, Kyoto University Faculty of Medicine, Japan.Retinal bipolar cells

receive glutamatergic transmission from photoreceptors and mediate a key process in segregating visual signals into ON-center and OFF-center pathways. The segregation of ON responses involves a G protein-coupled metabotropic glutamate receptor (mGluR). The mGluR6 subtype is expressed restrictedly at the postsynaptic site of retinal ON-bipolar cells. Ablation of mGluR6 in the ON-bipolar cells by gene targeting results in a loss of ON responses but unchanged OFF responses in visual transmission. Thus, mGluR6 is essential for inducing ON responses. The aims of this study are analyses of visual responsiveness and possible visual dysfunction in mGluR6-deficient mice. We report here that mGluR6-deficient mice have unaltered locomotor activity in a daily light-dark cycle and exhibit light-stimulated induction of Fos immunoreactivity in the suprachiasmatic nucleus. These findings indicate that mGluR6-deficient mice are capable or responding to light stimulation. The

mGluR6 deficiency, however, markedly reduces the sensitivity of pupillary responses to light stimulus and severely impairs the ability to drive optokinetic nystagmus in response to visual contrasts. This study thus demonstrates that mGluR6 contributes to discrimination of visual contrasts.PMID: 9144650 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]note that G-protein is the pertussis toxin sensitive (Dtp vaccine!) one, the one that Dr Megson treats with Vit A + CLO protocol, as noticed this is probably the mechanism that it effects...these above glutamate-activated receptors are linked to L-type calcium channels, which are widely expressed in the body (both pre and post-sympathetically, and also on the main cell membrane/body, and by all indicators badly messed up in autism): Mol Neurobiol. 1996 Aug;13(1):81-95. Links The modulation of calcium currents by the activation of mGluRs. Functional implications. Stefani A et al Clinica Neurologica, Universita di Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy. Glutamatergic transmission in the central nervous system (CNS) is mediated by ionotropic, ligand-gated receptors (iGluRs), and metabotropic receptors (mGluRs). mGluRs are coupled to GTP-binding regulatory proteins (G-proteins) and modulate different second messenger pathways. Multiple effects

have been described following their activation; among others, regulation of fast synaptic transmission, changes in synaptic plasticity, and modification of the threshold for seizure generation. Some of the major roles played by the activation of mGluRs might depend on the modulation of high-voltage-activated (HVA) calcium (Ca2+) currents. Some HVA Ca2+ channels (N-, P-, and Q-type channels) are signaling components at most presynaptic active zones. Their mGluR-mediated inhibition reduces synaptic transmission. The interference, by agonists at mGluRs, on L-type channels might affect the repetitive neuronal firing behavior and the integration of complex events at the somatic level. In addition, the mGluR-mediated effects on voltage-gated Ca2+ signals have been suggested to strongly influence neurotoxicity. Rather different coupling mechanisms underlie the relation between mGluRs and Ca2+ currents: Together with a fast, membrane-delimited mechanism of action, much slower

responses, involving intracellular second messengers, have also been postulated. In the recent past, the relative paucity of selective agonists and antagonists for the different subclasses of mGluRs had hampered the clear definition of the roles of mGluRs in brain function. However, the recent availability of new pharmacological tools is promising to provide a better understanding of the neuronal functions related to different mGluR subtypes. The analysis of the mGluR-mediated modulation of Ca2+ conductances will probably offer new insights into the characterization of synaptic transmission and the development of neuroprotective agents. PMID: 8892337 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]> > > > > >> > > > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken. Ross, who's> > Nt,> > > had> > > > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same photo, had> > > pinprick> > > > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I presume its> > some> > > > sort of> > > > > > brain

damage.> > > > > > Thanks> > > > > > Peta> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.> > > > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release> > Date:> > > > > 05/12/2006> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Tom

doesn’t have any of these. Think it’s general toxins with him.

Sara

Re:

Re: Dilation of pupils

Sorry, I wasn't explicit

enough. Could people keep an eye on consumption of high gluamate foods and

whether the children the develop the dilatation. For us, pizzas and gummibears

definately caused dilatation.

JULIE GRIFFITHS

<moppett1btinternet> wrote:

Anybody interested in the

glutamate associatin with dilatation of pupils, could they keep an eye on this

and watch out for high gluatmate foods, ie bread/cereals, corn, tomatoes and

mushrooms and parmesan cheese.

Not to forget MSG found

everywhere and also in drug prescriptions......

natasa778

<nenodalmaholidays (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Gosh,

have a look at this one:

[Glutamic acid group

poisoning. So-called Chinese restaurant syndrome]

[Article in German] Rudin O et al

After eating a soup 10 persons (out of 100) fell sick; within 10 minutes they

suffered from nervous muscle convulsions, trembling, mouth desiccation and dilatation

of the pupils. The soup contained glutamate as flavour enhancer in an

unusually high concentration of 31 grams per litre.

PMID: 2573344 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

sounds a bit like seizures our kids experience, doesn't it??

Neuropharmacology. 1997 Feb;36(2):135-43.

<>

Impairment

of pupillary responses and optokinetic nystagmus in the mGluR6-deficient mouse.

Iwakabe H et al Department of

Biological Sciences, Kyoto University Faculty of Medicine, Japan.

Retinal bipolar cells receive glutamatergic transmission from photoreceptors

and mediate a key process in segregating visual signals into ON-center and

OFF-center pathways. The segregation of ON responses involves a G protein-coupled metabotropic glutamate

receptor (mGluR). The mGluR6 subtype is expressed restrictedly at the

postsynaptic site of retinal ON-bipolar cells. Ablation of mGluR6 in the

ON-bipolar cells by gene targeting results in a loss of ON responses but

unchanged OFF responses in visual transmission. Thus, mGluR6 is essential for

inducing ON responses. The aims of this study are analyses of visual

responsiveness and possible visual dysfunction in mGluR6-deficient mice. We report

here that mGluR6-deficient mice have unaltered locomotor activity in a daily

light-dark cycle and exhibit light-stimulated induction of Fos immunoreactivity

in the suprachiasmatic nucleus. These findings indicate that mGluR6-deficient

mice are capable or responding to light stimulation. The mGluR6 deficiency,

however, markedly reduces the sensitivity of pupillary responses to light

stimulus and severely impairs the ability to drive optokinetic nystagmus in

response to visual contrasts. This study thus demonstrates that mGluR6

contributes to discrimination of visual contrasts.

PMID: 9144650 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

note that G-protein is the pertussis toxin sensitive (Dtp vaccine!) one, the

one that Dr Megson treats with Vit A + CLO protocol, as noticed this is

probably the mechanism that it effects...

these above glutamate-activated receptors are linked to L-type calcium

channels, which are widely expressed in the body (both pre and

post-sympathetically, and also on the main cell membrane/body, and by all

indicators badly messed up in autism):

Mol Neurobiol.

1996 Aug;13(1):81-95. Links

The modulation of calcium currents by the activation

of mGluRs. Functional implications.

·

Stefani A et al Clinica Neurologica,

Universita di Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy.

Glutamatergic

transmission in the central nervous system (CNS) is mediated by ionotropic,

ligand-gated receptors (iGluRs), and metabotropic receptors (mGluRs). mGluRs

are coupled to GTP-binding regulatory proteins (G-proteins) and modulate

different second messenger pathways. Multiple effe cts have been described

following their activation; among others, regulation of fast synaptic

transmission, changes in synaptic plasticity, and modification of the threshold

for seizure generation. Some of the major roles played by the activation of

mGluRs might depend on the modulation of high-voltage-activated (HVA)

calcium (Ca2+) currents. Some HVA Ca2+ channels (N-, P-, and Q-type channels)

are signaling components at most presynaptic active zones. Their mGluR-mediated

inhibition reduces synaptic transmission. The interference, by agonists at

mGluRs, on L-type channels might affect the repetitive neuronal firing behavior

and the integration of complex events at the somatic level. In addition, the

mGluR-mediated effects on voltage-gated Ca2+ signals have been suggested to

strongly influence neurotoxicity. Rather different coupling mechanisms underlie

the relation between mGluRs and Ca2+ currents: Together with a fast,

membrane-delimited mechanism of action, much slower responses, involving

intracellular second messengers, have also been postulated. In the recent past,

the relative paucity of selective agonists and antagonists for the different

subclasses of mGluRs had hampered the clear definition of the roles of mGluRs

in brain function. However, the recent availability of new pharmacological

tools is promising to provide a better understanding of the neuronal functions

related to different mGluR subtypes. The analysis of the mGluR-mediated

modulation of Ca2+ conductances will probably offer new insights into the characterization

of synaptic transmission and the development of neuroprotective agents.

PMID: 8892337 [PubMed -

indexed for MEDLINE]

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi we recently had our boys school photo taken.

Ross, who's

> > Nt,

> > > had

> > > > > > dialated pupils but Charlie, who was in the same

photo, had

> > > pinprick

> > > > > > pupils.Does anyone know what this indicates? I

presume its

> > some

> > > > sort of

> > > > > > brain damage.

> > > > > > Thanks

> > > > > > Peta

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > > > > > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 -

Release

> > Date:

> > > > > 05/12/2006

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

--

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 04/12/2006

--

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.6/567 - Release Date: 04/12/2006