Re: Was: livesimply Now: Air Conditioner

[Guest guest]

What part of air conditioner is a problem?

The inside part (the coils) or the outside part

(the condensor??? I think)? ...or both?

--- Christ <antares41-41@...>

wrote:

and especially the

> mold generator uh oh, I

> mean air conditioner.

[Guest guest]

Barb,

If you have a central ac which I assume you do than you only have to

worry about the inside unit, " the air handler " . You need to keep the

evaporator coils clean but as I stated mold grows so fast that this is

next to impossible. This is where extreme avoidance would pay in

spades because if you don't bring it in it can't grow in your unit

hence it can't make you sick.

The condenser coils (outside) should be kept clean but only as a good

maintenance practice they can't make you sick because they are

outside.

A wall unit is different now though because the condenser and

evaporator coils are all integrated in one unit.

I clean the outside condenser coils and the inside evaporator coils

every day, as impractical as this sounds I have no choice. I have come

home after being away for a week and ran the unit without cleaning it

first and it put me on my but for two days.

As far as keeping mold out of your unit I would clean your coils maybe

as frequently as 4 times a year or more if possible and keep the

filters clean. It's impractical for you to do what I am doing.

Normally one would only have to clean the coils once a year but our

needs require more maintenance. I don't like recomending this becuae I

know how expensive it is to have technicians come out and do it. It is

easy to do if you could get someone that is mechanically inclined and

careful, you don't want them banging up the coils they are delicate.

I would not use vinegar or grapefruit extract myself because of how

important killing the mold is. I wouldn't trust those. The commercial

cleaners for coils are specifically designed for this task.

(cleaning/disinfecting) Although they are toxic so it's important that

you tell the technician to rinse the coils well and if you can do it

leave for a few hours come back if the cleaning agent smell is mild

just air out the house close it up again and leave for about 30

minutes to let your nose re calibrate . If you still smell the

cleanser you might need to have them rinsed again. I know it sounds

like a pain but I am just trying to be over cautious in case your

chemically sensitive. It is very important for us to avoid toxic and

cuastic substances.

Jeff or Carl posted a few months ago the best way to keep mold from

growing in your evaporator coils is to keep the filters clean and to

use the high efficiency ones. I can't remember what rating was

suggested

I don't even use a filter on my unit I see no sense in it. I am

cleaning the coils with an industrial solvent every day.

On Wed, 26 July 2006 14:21:56 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>What part of air conditioner is a problem?

>The inside part (the coils) or the outside part

>(the condensor??? I think)? ...or both?

[Guest guest]

Barb and ,

Two quick responses to the following:

> I would not use vinegar or grapefruit extract myself because of how >

important killing the mold is. I wouldn't trust those. The commercial >

cleaners for coils are specifically designed for this task. >

(cleaning/disinfecting) Although they are toxic so it's important that > you

tell the technician to rinse the coils well and if you can do it > leave for a

few hours

Getting the coils clean makes the mold growth start all over again,

which would take weeks to months instead of days. Needing to treat

every few days is usually an indiation of buildup of " stuff " that

includes not only mold but bacteria and decaying matter on the UNDER

SIDE of the coils, not the top that is easily accessible. Vinegar is

excellent in my opinion but each of us has to go with what we have

experienced rather than what somebody else says. The grapefruit seed

extract GSE is very effective at killing. But, again, it is more

important to clean the underside of the coils.

Any coil cleaner should be EPA registered specifically for that

purpose. An excellent product line is available from BBJ

Environmental at http://www.bbjenviro.com/ Although they are much

less toxic to humans and do not contain tryclosan they are very

effective. One of the products is designed to be applied to clean

coils for the purpose of extending the time between cleanings.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

[Guest guest]

Carl,

Are the coils those metal strips that are in

shape of teepee, that are over the top of my

furnace? If so, how do you clean the *underside*

of them? I've never seen them taken out. The

pan under them is rusted pretty bad, so perhaps

pan will not come out. I've never seen an ac

service person take them out. I think I can buy

a new one for $300.00 that would not be rusty. I

think one person mentioned that to me.

--- " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

> Barb and ,

>

> Two quick responses to the following:

>

> Getting the coils clean makes the mold growth

> start all over again,

> which would take weeks to months instead of

> days. Needing to treat

> every few days is usually an indiation of

> buildup of " stuff " that

> includes not only mold but bacteria and

> decaying matter on the UNDER

> SIDE of the coils, not the top that is easily

> accessible. Vinegar is

> excellent in my opinion but each of us has to

> go with what we have

> experienced rather than what somebody else

> says. The grapefruit seed

> extract GSE is very effective at killing. But,

> again, it is more

> important to clean the underside of the coils.

>

[Guest guest]

The Best Thing you can do is to buy a pump up sprayer and forcefully

spray water and soap into the coils. They can't be removed without

removing the freon from the system and taking a torch to the copper

fittings and melting the solder joint's. Not something you would want

to do for a simple cleaning.

A brush might help but they are very delicate and you don't want to

fold over the aluminum fins and obstuct the air flow.

That's why I still stand behind the commercial cleaners designed for

this purpose. They are designed to clean and remove built up dirt

without scrubbing. The foaming action delivers the cleaner to areas

that would be hard to reach otherwise.

27 Jul 2006 06:55:06 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Carl,

>Are the coils those metal strips that are in

>shape of teepee, that are over the top of my

>furnace? If so, how do you clean the *underside*

>of them? I've never seen them taken out. The

>pan under them is rusted pretty bad, so perhaps

>pan will not come out. I've never seen an ac

>service person take them out. I think I can buy

>a new one for $300.00 that would not be rusty. I

>think one person mentioned that to me.

[Guest guest]

Carl,

I don't really want to disagree with you because I am no expert, but

from what I have read and also experience a mold colony only takes

days to form from spores. I suppose if the system had filters that

kept the spores and dirt off of the coils you could delay this

process, and as you said if the bottom side of my coils still have

dirt on them than the mold is probably still living there and has a

source of food upon which to grow.

Unfortunately with a cheap wall unit like mine filters do little good.

If you try to modify one you restrict the airflow and if you use what

they come with they are not going to keep spores or fine particles off

of the coils.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:15:33 -0600, you wrote:

>

>Getting the coils clean makes the mold growth start all over again,

>which would take weeks to months instead of days. Needing to treat

>every few days is usually an indiation of buildup of " stuff " that

>includes not only mold but bacteria and decaying matter on the UNDER

>SIDE of the coils, not the top that is easily accessible.

[Guest guest]

,

It's okay to disagree. That's one way we all learn more. And experts

don't know everything. The fact that you have a wall unit makes all

the difference in the world. The construction and air pathway is very

different than with a central unit. And I agree with your opinion of

not using filters with them.

I've found that wall units, although simpler, were often the more

troublesome - until I discovered their nasty little secret. They have

an area that is difficult to clean and I never considered it because

it was so " little. " From the blower blades to the outlet vent may be

only a few inches but this is where dirt accumulates and

mold/bacteria grows because it doesn't get cleaned and is so small it

is immediately dismissed as insignificant. Add an A/C coil to this

and the difficulty multiplies. This part of the unit has to be opened

completely and detail cleaned.

As for mold growth occuring in only a few days, I agree. Spores can

actually germinate in a few hours and then can grow large enough to

see in a few days. But if part of a unit hasn't been cleaned in

years, then it will take years to duplicate that condition. That's

why I'm suggesting there is a part of your wall unit that isn't

getting cleaned, but is being indirectly affected by your

disinfection process.

Should you now tear apart your wall unit? Not unless you need to. If

your daily disinfection is okay with you and it works, don't change a

thing. If the daily routine becomes burdensome, then my suggestion,

based only on the info I have in these e-mails, is to disassemble the

unit and clean " everything, " especially the nooks and crannies that

are too small to cause a problem.

Here is a different example. A client many years ago had a problem

after her cleaning lady used ammonia to clean the tiles on the

kitchen floor. The ammonia odor lingered so my client mopped the

floor. She was satisfied but a few minutes later the odor returned.

So she mopped again. And again. Her report was that after about 20

times the odor was significantly reduced but still too troublesome.

Obviously the ammonia was least likely to be on the tile surface, so

where could it still be? A close inspection revealed that the tiles

were old with sizeable cracks between them instead of just seams. The

cracks were impacted with dirt. That's where the ammonia was - in the

dirt in the cracks. I used a small knife to scrape out the dirt from

the cracks, cleaned up the dirt and the odor was gone.

The solution is not always the obvious even though it is usually

" right in front of our eyes. " That's why I always find out what my

clients have already done so I don't needlessly repeat what hasn't

worked. I then look for things they haven't done. It is almost always

something they dismissed as irrelevant.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

-----

> Carl,

> I don't really want to disagree with you because I am no expert, but

> from what I have read and also experience a mold colony only takes

> days to form from spores. I suppose if the system had filters that

> kept the spores and dirt off of the coils you could delay this

> process, and as you said if the bottom side of my coils still have

> dirt on them than the mold is probably still living there and has a

> source of food upon which to grow. Unfortunately with a cheap wall

> unit like mine filters do little good. If you try to modify one you

> restrict the airflow and if you use what they come with they are not

> going to keep spores or fine particles off of the coils.

>

>

>

>

>

> On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:15:33 -0600, you wrote:

>

> >

> >Getting the coils clean makes the mold growth start all over again,

> >which would take weeks to months instead of days. Needing to treat

> >every few days is usually an indiation of buildup of " stuff " that

> >includes not only mold but bacteria and decaying matter on the UNDER

> >SIDE of the coils, not the top that is easily accessible.

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>I've found that wall units, although simpler, were often the more

>troublesome - until I discovered their nasty little secret. They have

>an area that is difficult to clean and I never considered it because

>it was so " little. " From the blower blades to the outlet vent may be

>only a few inches but this is where dirt accumulates and

>mold/bacteria grows because it doesn't get cleaned and is so small it

>is immediately dismissed as insignificant. Add an A/C coil to this

>and the difficulty multiplies. This part of the unit has to be opened

>completely and detail cleaned.

>

I can relate to this, when I first got the unit and put it in the

window, (the first two days) it was nirvana. I felt really good. But

that soon changed and I started slowly getting sicker. So I started

cleaning with bleach. I tried ammonia and finally switched to the

commercial cleaner. But after a few weeks no matter how well I

cleaned the coils I was still getting sick. I finally got frustrated

and took it out of the window and took off the cover. Couldn't see

anything obvious so I started disassembling until I could see inside

the blower housing and lone behold was a little bit of black mold

growing in the bottom of the Styrofoam housing. I took a tape sample

over to a friends house whom has a pretty nice low power microscope

and it was defiantly alive whatever it was. Was not dirt. I wish I

would have had it analyzed professionally now but did not want to

spend the money.

I cleaned it up and used the 13,000 BTU ceiling unit that came with

the trailer in the interim. When I finally got around to putting the

unit back into the wall a few weeks latter again I experienced nirvana

but it was short lived.

I know that people talk about reaction levels to mold I would think

that I am very reactive to tiny concentrations of the stuff. The

little bit I cleaned out of my ac unit was very sparse and only took

an area about one quarter the size of a dollar bill. But it still made

me sick not desperately ill like if I were to let the mold grow in

there for a week or two but ill enough to make me dysfunctional.

I am to the point with the unit where I am going to have to take it

apart again unfortunately. This time I am going to have it

professionally anyalized If I can get a good specimen like I did the

last time. I will post the results here.

[Guest guest]

What is a wall unit, as opposed to window or

central? Is that like you see in hotels? Air

does not mix with adjacent rooms, etc?

--- " Carl E. Grimes " <grimes@...> wrote:

> > ,

>

> It's okay to disagree. That's one way we all

> learn more. And experts

> don't know everything. The fact that you have a

> wall unit makes all

> the difference in the world. The construction

> and air pathway is very

> different than with a central unit.

[Guest guest]

I don't see any metal fins! I see them on my

dehumidifiers but not on my a/c coils. They are

big round things, like smooth bands of stainless

steel. It looks like stainless but don't know

for sure. It's very old, 28 years old.

--- Christ <antares41-41@...>

wrote:

> A brush might help but they are very delicate

> and you don't want to

> fold over the aluminum fins and obstuct the air

> flow.

>

[Guest guest]

I am to the point with the unit where I am going to have to take it

> apart again unfortunately. This time I am going to have it

> professionally anyalized If I can get a good specimen like I did the

> last time. I will post the results here.

>

I just completely stripped out all the styrofoam and fiberglass

insulation. I also cut an access panel in the top of the cooling duct

for inspection and access so I can wipe interior easily.

That finally got it.

-

[Guest guest]

Wall and window are the same, I just use the wall terminology. Window

would probably be better terminology since that's where most of them

are installed.

>

>What is a wall unit, as opposed to window or

>central? Is that like you see in hotels? Air

>does not mix with adjacent rooms, etc?

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Not sure what your describing, I think you mentioned something that

was v shaped in an earlier post. That is usually how the coils on a

central unit are configured. They are in the air handler or as I

think you refereed to it as " furnace " .

There is usually a side panel with a few screws holding it in, just

take off the side panel and it will expose the evaporator coils.

Never seen any that did not have fins to absorb heat.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:46:51 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>I don't see any metal fins! I see them on my

>dehumidifiers but not on my a/c coils. They are

>big round things, like smooth bands of stainless

>steel. It looks like stainless but don't know

>for sure. It's very old, 28 years old.

[Guest guest]

It just occurred to me that although I have a

central a/c and the coils are cleaned regularly,

I have *three* dehumidifiers with those metal

fins you are talking about and these stand alone

units DO NOT have filters on them so the

probability of dirt in them is extremely high and

indoor air quality in my home has not seemed very

good so now that is yet another place to look, or

clean! I've always liked colder climates anyway,

maybe I will move north. It seems harder to me

to keep safe in the summer.

--- Christ <antares41-41@...>

wrote:

> >> >I've found that wall units, although

simpler,

> were often the more

> >troublesome - until I discovered their nasty

> little secret. They have

> >an area that is difficult to clean and I never

> considered it because

> >it was so " little. " From the blower blades to

> the outlet vent may be

>

[Guest guest]

I have a dehumidifier but don't use it when I can run the ac, they

both do the same thing (dehumidify) except during the summer a

dehumidifier (at least the stand alone ones) generate heat, so you are

making your air conditioner run longer to remove the heat from your

house. I keep my stand alone dehumidifier out in the shed unless I am

going to be away for a few days than I run it exclusively and leave

the ac's off. No reason to cool the camper when I am not here and I

figure the mold probably finds the heat just as unpleasant as I do,

especially when I set the humidity level down to 35%.

You defiantly don't want to ignore the dehumidifiers as far as

cleaning goes, anywhere where you have a moisture supply you have

mold. When you have a set of wet coils sucking all kinds of organic

matter though them including spores that is a recipe for disaster.

Another reason to not use them until the weather gets cooler.

I would suggest just running the central ac, than you only have one

set of coils to clean.

If you have a dehumidifier unit that is somehow integrated with the

air handler you might not have the excess heat but you still have the

added burden of keeping them clean. I would still not use them until

it gets cooler and you don't need to run the ac.

Another thing that seems to work good for me is cleaning the coils

and letting them dry out for a week or so, seems to have a double

whammy effect on any mold that is missed by the cleaning. By not

immediately replenishing their water and food supply it breaks the

cycle.

If you must use dehumidifiers rotate them where you clean one and let

it set and dry for a week or two while you are using the other one.

That is what I do between my wall unit ac and my roof unit.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:43:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>

>It just occurred to me that although I have a

>central a/c and the coils are cleaned regularly,

>I have *three* dehumidifiers with those metal

>fins you are talking about and these stand alone

>units DO NOT have filters on them so the

>probability of dirt in them is extremely high and

>indoor air quality in my home has not seemed very

>good so now that is yet another place to look, or

>clean! I've always liked colder climates anyway,

>maybe I will move north. It seems harder to me

>to keep safe in the summer.

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 23:14:12 +0000, you wrote:

>

>I just completely stripped out all the styrofoam and fiberglass

>insulation. I also cut an access panel in the top of the cooling duct

>for inspection and access so I can wipe interior easily.

>That finally got it.

>-

The problem with these wall units as well as my ceiling unit is their

are so many spaces that are inaccessible. I have resorted to going up

on my roof and accessing the inside of my ceiling unit from there. I

have to remove a metal cover and than I have easy access to the coils.

I can spray them down with a garden hose. That way I know I got all

of the debree and caustic soap out. Still have the problem of the fan

and the housing. I took out my wall unit and the fan blades (squirrel

wheel type) had a thin layer of black mold on them. The Styrofoam

housing which I can't replace had black mold growing in seams, and

impressions and areas that I cant reach with a bleach soaked towel.

It really sucks. There was a lot of soap residue and dirt built up on

the bottom back side of the evaporator coil just as Carl had

mentioned.

I can't wait to get out of Florida.