Re: Protein / carb-cycling

April 12, 2001

Thanks Andy,

That was a little overwhelming, I'm sorry, I couldn't get through it

all. I read the beginning, a little of the interview (some of this

stuff still confuses me), and the end. I get your point about carb

cycling, and though I won't cut out completely the carbs, I'm are

recently reformed addict, I will cut back, and include more

vegetables like in the list. When I have about an hour, I'll go back

and read it all. a

> > Andy,

> >

> > I follow your rational about the carbs post-workout. But I'm

> > concerned I'm not getting all my carb portions during the day.

>

> From the research I've been doing, I've concluded (at least so far)

> that although carbs are an essential part of healthy eating, we

don't

> need as many carbs as we've been led to believe. I have two carb

> days a week. The reason I'm currently doing 7 days of *just*

protein

> is not because I'm getting into the Atkins diet - but there is

*some*

> truth to the Atkins diet. The 7 days is for the purpose of a

> metabolic shift: I'm reprogramming my body from being a sugar

burner

> (what most of us are because we live in a culture that relies

mostly

> on carbs) to a fat burner.

>

> After the 7-day shift, I'll begin cycling the carb days into my

> week. There *are* times when you want an insulin spike, and that's

> the purpose of the periodic carb-loads. But you don't want an

> insulin spike closely following a workout.

>

> I'm saying this not because I'm personally an expert; I'm certainly

> not. But one thing I *am* generally good at is doing research and

> evaluating arguments. I believe NATURAL HORMONAL ENHANCEMENT

offers

> a superior way of eating to that of BFL because it's far more

> scientifically thorough and meticulous. Ironically, though, Bill

> appears to be endorsing, at least tentatively, a version

of

> protein/carb cycling in his article " Get Ready to Grow Big Time, "

at:

> http://www.musclemedia.com/training/abcde/v58_abc1.asp

>

> In one installment of that series, Bill's interviewee, Torbjorn

> Akerfeldt, states:

>

> " As you know, fat loss is all but impossible in the presence of

> elevated insulin levels—a high-carbohydrate diet will severely

> inhibit fat oxidation. Also, if you followed a high-carbohydrate

diet

> during the low-calorie phase, the accompanying increase in fat

> oxidation would make you put on a lot of fat during the next

bulking

> phase.

>

> " Nevertheless, carbohydrates also have some very important

properties

> during a hypocaloric diet, such as keeping GH and IGF-1 primed.

> Therefore, it's almost necessary to perform " microcycles " for

optimal

> results. "

>

> Now most of the article follows on larger cycles of 2 weeks each;

the

> first 2 weeks are low-cal dieting combined with cardio exercise

> strictly for the purpose of fat loss. The following 2 weeks are

high-

> cal dieting with weight training strictly for the purpose of muscle

> gain. Then you cycle these 2-week periods indefinitely. But in a

> later installment Bill gets back to the subtopic of micro-cycling:

>

> " BP: There have also been a number of queries about the " micro-

> cycling theories " you talked briefly about in the past two

articles.

> What's this about?

>

> " TA: My concept of micro-cycling is actually a sub-theory of the

> ABCDE Program. Not only do I recommend changing your calorie intake

> and exercise program every two weeks, I also think manipulating

> things like your protein, fat, and carbohydrate intake every three

> days, within the structure of the high- and low-calorie cycles, may

> allow you to get even better results faster. "

>

> Then in part IV Bill continues on this subtopic:

>

> " All right, let's move on to new business. A couple times, in

> previous articles, Torbjorn Akerfeldt has mentioned that the " micro-

> cycling " of macronutrients, specifically protein, may offer another

> way to " trick the body " into gaining new muscle size. To be honest,

> before Torbjorn introduced this theory, I had never heard, nor even

> thought, of cycling protein, but after he explained this theory to

me

> and showed me the scientific rationale behind it, I'm beginning to

> believe there might be something to this new concept as well. In a

> recent interview with Torbjorn, I asked him about this theory.

Here's

> how it went...

>

> " Bill : Let's talk about something you mentioned in our

last

> interview—cycling protein intake. How does this work, and why would

> someone want to do this? I was under the impression that you had to

> consume a high-protein diet every day to gain muscle. It sounds

like

> a wild theory to be honest.

>

> " Torbjorn Akerfeldt: I realize that by introducing the concept of

> protein cycling, I might cause some of your readers to say, " That

> Swedish guy with the unpronounceable name has finally gone nuts... "

I

> say this because I've found that bodybuilders hold three things

> sacred: heavy squats, steroids—or creatine for drug-free

bodybuilders—

> and a high protein intake. As long as you don't touch these dogmas,

> many bodybuilders will listen and be prepared to do some of the

most

> outrageous, unscientific, and often dangerous things, in an effort

to

> become bigger and stronger. However, I have to challenge one of

these

> fundamentals: namely, the high protein intake. I know some of your

> readers, after reviewing even this much of the text, will flip to

the

> next article. I warn them that this is a big mistake. By " hearing

me

> out, " I promise they'll learn something new about protein

metabolism

> and muscle growth that may change the way they view protein intake

> forever, allowing them to reach a new standard of muscle growth and

> fat loss.

>

> " BP: Should we cycle protein like calories—going two weeks on a

high-

> protein diet and two weeks on a low-protein diet?

>

> " TA: No. I need to emphasize that my theory involves reducing

protein

> intake only for a few days at a time. In order to understand why

this

> is important—why it could allow bodybuilders to get better results

> from their workouts—I need to explain some of the basics about

> protein and its biochemistry, so please bear with me. I believe

that

> if more bodybuilders understood the contemporary science behind the

> metabolic processes of muscle growth and fat loss, they would be

able

> to spot a flawed theory before they had put a lot of their blood,

> sweat, and tears—not to mention money—into it. As I've explained in

> my previous interviews, it is important to understand that we all

> react and adapt to dietary changes; our bodies are constantly

trying

> to outsmart us, you might say. I see this not only in the gym but

> also when reviewing statistics from scientific studies on

nutrition.

> The body is amazing. "

>

> Later in the same installment:

>

> " BP: How did you come up with your protein cycling theory?

>

> " TA: My interest in protein cycling originated about a year ago

when

> I realized that if you change from a diet with normal protein

intake

> to one with a high intake, after about a week, you will have less

> amino acids in your blood than before upping your protein intake.13

> The reason for this is not only enzymatic adaptation but also

> hormonal changes. A high protein intake stimulates the release of a

> hormone called glucagon, which is a hormone that opposes the

effects

> of the anabolic hormone insulin.

>

> " With increased protein intake, the urea cycle runs at a faster

pace

> to excrete the nitrogen from the excess amino acids. Glucagon is

> also " consuming " amino acids, but in this case, to create glucose

> [gluconeogenesis] by up-regulating gluconeogenic enzymes.

> Unfortunately, these two systems overcompensate and thus decrease

the

> amount of available amino acids in the bloodstream. However, it

seems

> that the transport of amino acids into muscle is initially

improved.

>

> " After examining this issue, I went on to explore what happens

during

> a period of low protein feeding. What I discovered is there are

> several mechanisms that preserve muscle proteins in favor of, for

> example, liver proteins [which include more labile proteins],

during

> this condition. First of all, muscle proteins have a longer life

span

> than liver proteins, so initially [during the first few days of

> protein deprivation], liver proteins, rather than muscle proteins,

> are lost, and muscle mass is remarkably well preserved.7

Furthermore,

> the urea-cycle enzymes are down-regulated [interestingly, the same

> thing happens during overfeeding3]; thus, less urea is formed, and

> this urea can, under these conditions, even be recycled by

something

> called the urea-salvage pathway to create amino acids again.10 This

> also takes place during training and recovery.2 Even more

interesting

> are the events within the muscle cell. During the first day of a

low

> protein intake, protein synthesis is decreased while the

degradation

> is constant. After three days, however, the degradation is

> significantly lowered.23 Thus, in essence, a three-day, low-protein

> diet actually stimulates anti-proteolytic mechanisms, or " anti-

> catabolism " as it is often referred to in the muscle magazines.

>

> " Now comes the very interesting part—when you switch back to a high-

> protein diet, you create the perfect environment for super-

> compensation of muscle proteins [GROWTH!] to take place. Here's

why:

>

> " The amino acids [nitrogen] will stay in the body since urea-cycle

> enzymes are still down-regulated, and the urea-salvage pathway is

> still operating.

>

> " The nitrogen balance in muscle is dramatically elevated because

the

> synthesis is rapidly increased due to improved availability of

amino

> acids20 and because it takes two days for protein degradation to

> increase23 back to your baseline value, which is still lower than

> average due to the high protein intake.8,16

>

> " These very important observations are the basis for protein

cycling

> within the framework of my Anabolic Burst Cycling System. By doing

> these micro-cycles, especially during the low-calorie phase, you

can

> experience muscle growth, even though you are on a restricted-

calorie

> diet—you can build muscle and burn fat at the same time! This is

> what " nutrient repartitioning " is all about—you drive energy stores

> from fat to fuel muscle tissue. It is a " rob to pay "

> phenomenon. Unfortunately, this " primed condition " exists for only

> about two or three days. "

>

> Still later:

>

> " BP: There has been some debate in the scientific community about

> whether high-protein diets are dangerous. What do you think?

>

> " TA: I don't recommend a very high-protein diet nor protein cycling

> to people with insufficient kidney function [with serum creatinine

> over 150 micromol/l] since the high-protein days could throw such a

> person into a " uremic state, " which is not only muscle catabolic

but

> also very unhealthy. For people with critical liver dysfunction, a

> high-protein diet could also become a problem by inducing

> encephalopathy [brain damage].

>

> " For healthy people, however, protein cycling is probably healthier

> than chronic high protein intakes. I believe some bodybuilders who

> are consuming these outrageously high protein intakes—over 400

grams

> per day—underestimate the possible long-term side effects of such

> nutritional practices. With these super-high-protein diets, the

> excess protein is partly converted to toxic metabolites, such as

> homocysteine and ammonia. [You know you're consuming way too much

> protein when your gym clothes start to stink like ammonia—even

after

> washing them!]

>

> " Most scientists I work with believe nowadays a moderately high-

> protein diet, especially for people who pay close attention to

their

> fluid balance [increased water loss almost always accompanies a

high-

> protein diet] are not at an increased risk for kidney or liver

> damage. The problem with many bodybuilders is that it's hard to

> determine if their abnormal liver and kidney parameters are a

result

> of present or prior use of anabolic steroids or if it's due to

> dietary factors.

>

> " Bodybuilders who consume a super-high-protein diet and are

convinced

> they need this much protein probably do! By consuming so much

protein

> day in and day out, their bodies become so efficient at breaking

down

> amino acids that they have turned their metabolic systems

> into " protein monsters " that devour amino acids before they can be

> used to build muscle tissue.

>

> " BP: Should you cycle carbohydrates and fat, as well as protein?

>

> " TA: There is some basis for performing micro-cycles within the

> Anabolic Burst Cycling System with carbohydrates and fat, but they

> are quite different; however, there may be important " tricks " for

fat

> loss especially. I hope to review these in a future article, but

for

> now, if someone is following all the recommendations I made in the

> first three parts of this article, the next step for them—the thing

> they can do to get even better results, provided they're following

> all of my instructions with discipline, is to experiment with

protein

> cycling.

>

> " BP:If people are on high-protein diets, how can they get their

> systems back into balance?

>

> " TA: I would recommend that anyone who is on a very high-protein

diet

> start cycling protein intake and gradually lower it. Let's say a

200-

> lb bodybuilder is consuming 400 grams of protein a day. What I

would

> recommend is that for 3 days, he should cut down to 200 grams of

> protein a day, then go up to 350 grams a day for 3 days, then come

> down to about 150 grams a day, up to 250 grams a day for 3 days,

and

> so on.

>

> " BP: Who should try protein cycling, and why?

>

> " TA: If a person's goal is to lose fat while gaining muscle at the

> same time, protein cycling is definitely something he/she should

> experiment with. "

>

> Mind you, Akerfeldt and Rob Faigin (the NHE plan) disagree on just

> how many days to cycle, or the precise amounts of carbs and

proteins,

> but the principle is the same nonetheless. In NHE Faigin writes,

>

> " While the recommendation to avoid extreme protein diets [e.g.,

> Atkins] is sound, the general proposition that a protein-rich diet

is

> unhealthy has also gained currency. And this notion is

fundamentally

> ridiculous in view of the evidence . . . showing that human beings

> evolved on a protein-rich diet. [While I do not subscribe to

> evolutionary theory, I agree with Faigin that our ancient

ancestors,

> at least in many places at many times, subsisted on a protein-rich

> diet.] As noted earlier, anti-protein is typically an off-shoot of

> anti-fat. In addition, anti-protein is a byproduct of the pro-

> carbohydrate movement inasmuch as protein gets displaced from the

> diet in the misled effort to elevate carbohydrate to the

recommended

> 60%-70% of total caloric intake. It is interesting how the high-

carb

> crowd advances vague, unfounded warnings that protein is bad for

you

> while ignoring the fact that refined-carbohydrate-based diets have

> been linked to virtually every major degenerative disease that

> afflicts the Western world.

>

> " While more is not necessarily better, too little protein is

> unhealthy because, unlike carbohydrate, the human body requires a

> certain amount of protein to function properly. The NHE Eating

Plan,

> by making protein the centerpiece of your diet, effectively

precludes

> the possibility of deficiency. " [pp 158-59]

>

> One thing that Faigin points out is that it's not the total amount

of

> protein consumption in your day that is the problem - it's eating

too

> much protein at *one sitting*. That's why he has a 50g limit per

> meal.

>

> < One reason for this is I've also heard it's beneficial to cut the

> carbs from the last two meals of the day. If cutting the carbs on

> these three meals is done (at least 3 x week with weights), and I

> can't figure out a decent schedule. The earliest my day starts is

> 0645, that's cardio. And I'm usually in bed by 1030-1100pm. I'm

> having problems getting in all 6 meals. Any suggestions? >

>

> One suggestion would be to eat more vegetables. Faigin provides a

> useful list of " free " vegetables - they have such a good

thermogenic

> effect (i.e., they make you burn calories in the process of

digesting

> them) that you can eat almost limitless amounts:

> - asparagus

> - cauliflower

> - broccoli

> - cabbage

> - celery

> - lettuce

> - mushrooms

> - onions

> - radicchio

> - radishes

> - spinach

>

> Highly thermogenic fruits (though these can't be eaten in unlimited

> amounts, because they're carbs) include:

> - apples

> - appricots

> - blueberries

> - cherries

> - grapes

> - peaches

> - pears

> - raspberries

> - strawberries

>

> And you can even eat a fair amount of less-thermogenic, but still

> nutritious, fruits and vegetables. (It takes me a long time to get

> bored with veggies as long as I have something to put on them, such

> as a fat-free gravy I commonly use, or sometimes melted cheese.)

>

> Another possibility, if you don't wish to go whole-hog on protein /

> carb cycling (and by the way it's not as if I'm saying the BFL

eating

> plan is " bad " or something), is simply to cut back on carbs from

day

> to day. Perhaps as simple as having a protein shake immediately

> following your workout (see my other post on a post-workout shake

> recipe), and making your last meal before bedtime carb-free as well.

>

> Best regards,

> Andy

>

> PS: Faigin's book NATURAL HORMONAL ENHANCEMENT has been mentioned a

> number of times on this list. I invite anyone here to go to

Faigin's

> own website and read his extensive Q & A section if you have any

> arguments with what's been posted here.

April 12, 2001

Thanks Andy,

That was a little overwhelming, I'm sorry, I couldn't get through it

all. I read the beginning, a little of the interview (some of this

stuff still confuses me), and the end. I get your point about carb

cycling, and though I won't cut out completely the carbs, I'm are

recently reformed addict, I will cut back, and include more

vegetables like in the list. When I have about an hour, I'll go back

and read it all. a

> > Andy,

> >

> > I follow your rational about the carbs post-workout. But I'm

> > concerned I'm not getting all my carb portions during the day.

>

> From the research I've been doing, I've concluded (at least so far)

> that although carbs are an essential part of healthy eating, we

don't

> need as many carbs as we've been led to believe. I have two carb

> days a week. The reason I'm currently doing 7 days of *just*

protein

> is not because I'm getting into the Atkins diet - but there is

*some*

> truth to the Atkins diet. The 7 days is for the purpose of a

> metabolic shift: I'm reprogramming my body from being a sugar

burner

> (what most of us are because we live in a culture that relies

mostly

> on carbs) to a fat burner.

>

> After the 7-day shift, I'll begin cycling the carb days into my

> week. There *are* times when you want an insulin spike, and that's

> the purpose of the periodic carb-loads. But you don't want an

> insulin spike closely following a workout.

>

> I'm saying this not because I'm personally an expert; I'm certainly

> not. But one thing I *am* generally good at is doing research and

> evaluating arguments. I believe NATURAL HORMONAL ENHANCEMENT

offers

> a superior way of eating to that of BFL because it's far more

> scientifically thorough and meticulous. Ironically, though, Bill

> appears to be endorsing, at least tentatively, a version

of

> protein/carb cycling in his article " Get Ready to Grow Big Time, "

at:

> http://www.musclemedia.com/training/abcde/v58_abc1.asp

>

> In one installment of that series, Bill's interviewee, Torbjorn

> Akerfeldt, states:

>

> " As you know, fat loss is all but impossible in the presence of

> elevated insulin levels—a high-carbohydrate diet will severely

> inhibit fat oxidation. Also, if you followed a high-carbohydrate

diet

> during the low-calorie phase, the accompanying increase in fat

> oxidation would make you put on a lot of fat during the next

bulking

> phase.

>

> " Nevertheless, carbohydrates also have some very important

properties

> during a hypocaloric diet, such as keeping GH and IGF-1 primed.

> Therefore, it's almost necessary to perform " microcycles " for

optimal

> results. "

>

> Now most of the article follows on larger cycles of 2 weeks each;

the

> first 2 weeks are low-cal dieting combined with cardio exercise

> strictly for the purpose of fat loss. The following 2 weeks are

high-

> cal dieting with weight training strictly for the purpose of muscle

> gain. Then you cycle these 2-week periods indefinitely. But in a

> later installment Bill gets back to the subtopic of micro-cycling:

>

> " BP: There have also been a number of queries about the " micro-

> cycling theories " you talked briefly about in the past two

articles.

> What's this about?

>

> " TA: My concept of micro-cycling is actually a sub-theory of the

> ABCDE Program. Not only do I recommend changing your calorie intake

> and exercise program every two weeks, I also think manipulating

> things like your protein, fat, and carbohydrate intake every three

> days, within the structure of the high- and low-calorie cycles, may

> allow you to get even better results faster. "

>

> Then in part IV Bill continues on this subtopic:

>

> " All right, let's move on to new business. A couple times, in

> previous articles, Torbjorn Akerfeldt has mentioned that the " micro-

> cycling " of macronutrients, specifically protein, may offer another

> way to " trick the body " into gaining new muscle size. To be honest,

> before Torbjorn introduced this theory, I had never heard, nor even

> thought, of cycling protein, but after he explained this theory to

me

> and showed me the scientific rationale behind it, I'm beginning to

> believe there might be something to this new concept as well. In a

> recent interview with Torbjorn, I asked him about this theory.

Here's

> how it went...

>

> " Bill : Let's talk about something you mentioned in our

last

> interview—cycling protein intake. How does this work, and why would

> someone want to do this? I was under the impression that you had to

> consume a high-protein diet every day to gain muscle. It sounds

like

> a wild theory to be honest.

>

> " Torbjorn Akerfeldt: I realize that by introducing the concept of

> protein cycling, I might cause some of your readers to say, " That

> Swedish guy with the unpronounceable name has finally gone nuts... "

I

> say this because I've found that bodybuilders hold three things

> sacred: heavy squats, steroids—or creatine for drug-free

bodybuilders—

> and a high protein intake. As long as you don't touch these dogmas,

> many bodybuilders will listen and be prepared to do some of the

most

> outrageous, unscientific, and often dangerous things, in an effort

to

> become bigger and stronger. However, I have to challenge one of

these

> fundamentals: namely, the high protein intake. I know some of your

> readers, after reviewing even this much of the text, will flip to

the

> next article. I warn them that this is a big mistake. By " hearing

me

> out, " I promise they'll learn something new about protein

metabolism

> and muscle growth that may change the way they view protein intake

> forever, allowing them to reach a new standard of muscle growth and

> fat loss.

>

> " BP: Should we cycle protein like calories—going two weeks on a

high-

> protein diet and two weeks on a low-protein diet?

>

> " TA: No. I need to emphasize that my theory involves reducing

protein

> intake only for a few days at a time. In order to understand why

this

> is important—why it could allow bodybuilders to get better results

> from their workouts—I need to explain some of the basics about

> protein and its biochemistry, so please bear with me. I believe

that

> if more bodybuilders understood the contemporary science behind the

> metabolic processes of muscle growth and fat loss, they would be

able

> to spot a flawed theory before they had put a lot of their blood,

> sweat, and tears—not to mention money—into it. As I've explained in

> my previous interviews, it is important to understand that we all

> react and adapt to dietary changes; our bodies are constantly

trying

> to outsmart us, you might say. I see this not only in the gym but

> also when reviewing statistics from scientific studies on

nutrition.

> The body is amazing. "

>

> Later in the same installment:

>

> " BP: How did you come up with your protein cycling theory?

>

> " TA: My interest in protein cycling originated about a year ago

when

> I realized that if you change from a diet with normal protein

intake

> to one with a high intake, after about a week, you will have less

> amino acids in your blood than before upping your protein intake.13

> The reason for this is not only enzymatic adaptation but also

> hormonal changes. A high protein intake stimulates the release of a

> hormone called glucagon, which is a hormone that opposes the

effects

> of the anabolic hormone insulin.

>

> " With increased protein intake, the urea cycle runs at a faster

pace

> to excrete the nitrogen from the excess amino acids. Glucagon is

> also " consuming " amino acids, but in this case, to create glucose

> [gluconeogenesis] by up-regulating gluconeogenic enzymes.

> Unfortunately, these two systems overcompensate and thus decrease

the

> amount of available amino acids in the bloodstream. However, it

seems

> that the transport of amino acids into muscle is initially

improved.

>

> " After examining this issue, I went on to explore what happens

during

> a period of low protein feeding. What I discovered is there are

> several mechanisms that preserve muscle proteins in favor of, for

> example, liver proteins [which include more labile proteins],

during

> this condition. First of all, muscle proteins have a longer life

span

> than liver proteins, so initially [during the first few days of

> protein deprivation], liver proteins, rather than muscle proteins,

> are lost, and muscle mass is remarkably well preserved.7

Furthermore,

> the urea-cycle enzymes are down-regulated [interestingly, the same

> thing happens during overfeeding3]; thus, less urea is formed, and

> this urea can, under these conditions, even be recycled by

something

> called the urea-salvage pathway to create amino acids again.10 This

> also takes place during training and recovery.2 Even more

interesting

> are the events within the muscle cell. During the first day of a

low

> protein intake, protein synthesis is decreased while the

degradation

> is constant. After three days, however, the degradation is

> significantly lowered.23 Thus, in essence, a three-day, low-protein

> diet actually stimulates anti-proteolytic mechanisms, or " anti-

> catabolism " as it is often referred to in the muscle magazines.

>

> " Now comes the very interesting part—when you switch back to a high-

> protein diet, you create the perfect environment for super-

> compensation of muscle proteins [GROWTH!] to take place. Here's

why:

>

> " The amino acids [nitrogen] will stay in the body since urea-cycle

> enzymes are still down-regulated, and the urea-salvage pathway is

> still operating.

>

> " The nitrogen balance in muscle is dramatically elevated because

the

> synthesis is rapidly increased due to improved availability of

amino

> acids20 and because it takes two days for protein degradation to

> increase23 back to your baseline value, which is still lower than

> average due to the high protein intake.8,16

>

> " These very important observations are the basis for protein

cycling

> within the framework of my Anabolic Burst Cycling System. By doing

> these micro-cycles, especially during the low-calorie phase, you

can

> experience muscle growth, even though you are on a restricted-

calorie

> diet—you can build muscle and burn fat at the same time! This is

> what " nutrient repartitioning " is all about—you drive energy stores

> from fat to fuel muscle tissue. It is a " rob to pay "

> phenomenon. Unfortunately, this " primed condition " exists for only

> about two or three days. "

>

> Still later:

>

> " BP: There has been some debate in the scientific community about

> whether high-protein diets are dangerous. What do you think?

>

> " TA: I don't recommend a very high-protein diet nor protein cycling

> to people with insufficient kidney function [with serum creatinine

> over 150 micromol/l] since the high-protein days could throw such a

> person into a " uremic state, " which is not only muscle catabolic

but

> also very unhealthy. For people with critical liver dysfunction, a

> high-protein diet could also become a problem by inducing

> encephalopathy [brain damage].

>

> " For healthy people, however, protein cycling is probably healthier

> than chronic high protein intakes. I believe some bodybuilders who

> are consuming these outrageously high protein intakes—over 400

grams

> per day—underestimate the possible long-term side effects of such

> nutritional practices. With these super-high-protein diets, the

> excess protein is partly converted to toxic metabolites, such as

> homocysteine and ammonia. [You know you're consuming way too much

> protein when your gym clothes start to stink like ammonia—even

after

> washing them!]

>

> " Most scientists I work with believe nowadays a moderately high-

> protein diet, especially for people who pay close attention to

their

> fluid balance [increased water loss almost always accompanies a

high-

> protein diet] are not at an increased risk for kidney or liver

> damage. The problem with many bodybuilders is that it's hard to

> determine if their abnormal liver and kidney parameters are a

result

> of present or prior use of anabolic steroids or if it's due to

> dietary factors.

>

> " Bodybuilders who consume a super-high-protein diet and are

convinced

> they need this much protein probably do! By consuming so much

protein

> day in and day out, their bodies become so efficient at breaking

down

> amino acids that they have turned their metabolic systems

> into " protein monsters " that devour amino acids before they can be

> used to build muscle tissue.

>

> " BP: Should you cycle carbohydrates and fat, as well as protein?

>

> " TA: There is some basis for performing micro-cycles within the

> Anabolic Burst Cycling System with carbohydrates and fat, but they

> are quite different; however, there may be important " tricks " for

fat

> loss especially. I hope to review these in a future article, but

for

> now, if someone is following all the recommendations I made in the

> first three parts of this article, the next step for them—the thing

> they can do to get even better results, provided they're following

> all of my instructions with discipline, is to experiment with

protein

> cycling.

>

> " BP:If people are on high-protein diets, how can they get their

> systems back into balance?

>

> " TA: I would recommend that anyone who is on a very high-protein

diet

> start cycling protein intake and gradually lower it. Let's say a

200-

> lb bodybuilder is consuming 400 grams of protein a day. What I

would

> recommend is that for 3 days, he should cut down to 200 grams of

> protein a day, then go up to 350 grams a day for 3 days, then come

> down to about 150 grams a day, up to 250 grams a day for 3 days,

and

> so on.

>

> " BP: Who should try protein cycling, and why?

>

> " TA: If a person's goal is to lose fat while gaining muscle at the

> same time, protein cycling is definitely something he/she should

> experiment with. "

>

> Mind you, Akerfeldt and Rob Faigin (the NHE plan) disagree on just

> how many days to cycle, or the precise amounts of carbs and

proteins,

> but the principle is the same nonetheless. In NHE Faigin writes,

>

> " While the recommendation to avoid extreme protein diets [e.g.,

> Atkins] is sound, the general proposition that a protein-rich diet

is

> unhealthy has also gained currency. And this notion is

fundamentally

> ridiculous in view of the evidence . . . showing that human beings

> evolved on a protein-rich diet. [While I do not subscribe to

> evolutionary theory, I agree with Faigin that our ancient

ancestors,

> at least in many places at many times, subsisted on a protein-rich

> diet.] As noted earlier, anti-protein is typically an off-shoot of

> anti-fat. In addition, anti-protein is a byproduct of the pro-

> carbohydrate movement inasmuch as protein gets displaced from the

> diet in the misled effort to elevate carbohydrate to the

recommended

> 60%-70% of total caloric intake. It is interesting how the high-

carb

> crowd advances vague, unfounded warnings that protein is bad for

you

> while ignoring the fact that refined-carbohydrate-based diets have

> been linked to virtually every major degenerative disease that

> afflicts the Western world.

>

> " While more is not necessarily better, too little protein is

> unhealthy because, unlike carbohydrate, the human body requires a

> certain amount of protein to function properly. The NHE Eating

Plan,

> by making protein the centerpiece of your diet, effectively

precludes

> the possibility of deficiency. " [pp 158-59]

>

> One thing that Faigin points out is that it's not the total amount

of

> protein consumption in your day that is the problem - it's eating

too

> much protein at *one sitting*. That's why he has a 50g limit per

> meal.

>

> < One reason for this is I've also heard it's beneficial to cut the

> carbs from the last two meals of the day. If cutting the carbs on

> these three meals is done (at least 3 x week with weights), and I

> can't figure out a decent schedule. The earliest my day starts is

> 0645, that's cardio. And I'm usually in bed by 1030-1100pm. I'm

> having problems getting in all 6 meals. Any suggestions? >

>

> One suggestion would be to eat more vegetables. Faigin provides a

> useful list of " free " vegetables - they have such a good

thermogenic

> effect (i.e., they make you burn calories in the process of

digesting

> them) that you can eat almost limitless amounts:

> - asparagus

> - cauliflower

> - broccoli

> - cabbage

> - celery

> - lettuce

> - mushrooms

> - onions

> - radicchio

> - radishes

> - spinach

>

> Highly thermogenic fruits (though these can't be eaten in unlimited

> amounts, because they're carbs) include:

> - apples

> - appricots

> - blueberries

> - cherries

> - grapes

> - peaches

> - pears

> - raspberries

> - strawberries

>

> And you can even eat a fair amount of less-thermogenic, but still

> nutritious, fruits and vegetables. (It takes me a long time to get

> bored with veggies as long as I have something to put on them, such

> as a fat-free gravy I commonly use, or sometimes melted cheese.)

>

> Another possibility, if you don't wish to go whole-hog on protein /

> carb cycling (and by the way it's not as if I'm saying the BFL

eating

> plan is " bad " or something), is simply to cut back on carbs from

day

> to day. Perhaps as simple as having a protein shake immediately

> following your workout (see my other post on a post-workout shake

> recipe), and making your last meal before bedtime carb-free as well.

>

> Best regards,

> Andy

>

> PS: Faigin's book NATURAL HORMONAL ENHANCEMENT has been mentioned a

> number of times on this list. I invite anyone here to go to

Faigin's

> own website and read his extensive Q & A section if you have any

> arguments with what's been posted here.

April 12, 2001

> Thanks Andy,

>

< That was a little overwhelming, I'm sorry, I couldn't get through

it all. >

I understand. I wasn't posting all that info entirely for your

benefit, though. I've found that a lot of people here are resistant

to other approaches besides BFL (which is understandable, because

they've generally had much success, and I certainly don't begrudge

them that), and so the reason I quoted extensively from that

interview is to show that even the creator of BFL is plenty open to

other approaches and plans.

Myself, I'm combining the BFL workout plan (so I'm still making use

of BFL, folks!) with the NHE eating plan. My experience on BFL since

Christmas was that while I followed the BFL eating plan, I lost a lot

of weight overall but that included several pounds of muscle mass,

which is not what you want, of course. So I realized I had to eat

more protein. That's partly why the NHE eating plan makes more sense

to me. But I also can't help but be impressed with Faigin's *very

extensive* scientific argumentation, something not at all included in

the BFL book, which is much more simply set forth. I *do* like BFL's

simplicity though. I think some people would shy away from Faigin's

eating plan because it's less convenient, much more meticulous and

calculated (though not that difficult once you understood the

principles behind it).

< I get your point about carb cycling, and though I won't cut out

completely the carbs, >

Oh heavens, no, I sure wouldn't advocate that. Glad you're not

cutting them out! For a lot of people, the minute you talk about

lowering carbs they assume you're endorsing the Atkins diet. With

the NHE plan that is *not* the case.

All the best, a.

Andy

April 12, 2001

what was the link for the NHE info?

neo-reality@... wrote:

> Thanks Andy,

>

< That was a little overwhelming, I'm sorry, I couldn't get

through

it all. >

I understand. I wasn't posting all that info entirely for

your

benefit, though. I've found that a lot of people here are

resistant

to other approaches besides BFL (which is understandable, because

they've generally had much success, and I certainly don't begrudge

them that), and so the reason I quoted extensively from that

interview is to show that even the creator of BFL is plenty open

to

other approaches and plans.

<snip>

April 12, 2001

Glad you asked: http://www.extique.com.

I get the strong impression about Rob Faigin that he is sincerely

concerned about people's health and *not* concerned about making

money (which is not to say I'm implying that Bill is selfish

or something). That's because he's (a) put loads of research into

his book, ( spends a fair amount of time answering people's

their wares. You can only order NHE online.

Regards,

Andy

> > > Thanks Andy,

> > >

> > < That was a little overwhelming, I'm sorry, I couldn't get

through

> > it all. >

> >

> > I understand. I wasn't posting all that info entirely for your

> > benefit, though. I've found that a lot of people here are

resistant

> > to other approaches besides BFL (which is understandable, because

> > they've generally had much success, and I certainly don't begrudge

> > them that), and so the reason I quoted extensively from that

> > interview is to show that even the creator of BFL is plenty open

to

> > other approaches and plans.

>

> <snip>

April 12, 2001

I was telling my state nutrition specialist about BFL and she said it

sounded like too few carbs especially with the 6 workouts per week.

She wondered what Bill qualifications were and where he

received his degree in nutrition.

I get her point, but he isn't telling us to cut out carbs completely

or cycle them. She thought that carbs approximately equal to protein

was too few. Well, she has obviously been brainwashed by someone,

right ?

Can't we still eat more protein and not cut out the carbs? I don't

get the point in restricting the carbs and I don't see how this would

be realistic to do for life. It may be good for the short term if

you have a lot of weight to lose, but I don't have much more weight

to lose so I guess this doesn't apply to me. If I didn't have some

carbs, I would find it difficult to get through my weight workouts.

Andy

> > Thanks Andy,

> >

> < That was a little overwhelming, I'm sorry, I couldn't get through

> it all. >

>

> I understand. I wasn't posting all that info entirely for your

> benefit, though. I've found that a lot of people here are

resistant

> to other approaches besides BFL (which is understandable, because

> they've generally had much success, and I certainly don't begrudge

> them that), and so the reason I quoted extensively from that

> interview is to show that even the creator of BFL is plenty open to

> other approaches and plans.

>

> Myself, I'm combining the BFL workout plan (so I'm still making use

> of BFL, folks!) with the NHE eating plan. My experience on BFL

since

> Christmas was that while I followed the BFL eating plan, I lost a

lot

> of weight overall but that included several pounds of muscle mass,

> which is not what you want, of course. So I realized I had to eat

> more protein. That's partly why the NHE eating plan makes more

sense

> to me. But I also can't help but be impressed with Faigin's *very

> extensive* scientific argumentation, something not at all included

in

> the BFL book, which is much more simply set forth. I *do* like

BFL's

> simplicity though. I think some people would shy away from

Faigin's

> eating plan because it's less convenient, much more meticulous and

> calculated (though not that difficult once you understood the

> principles behind it).

>

> < I get your point about carb cycling, and though I won't cut out

> completely the carbs, >

>

> Oh heavens, no, I sure wouldn't advocate that. Glad you're not

> cutting them out! For a lot of people, the minute you talk about

> lowering carbs they assume you're endorsing the Atkins diet. With

> the NHE plan that is *not* the case.

>

> All the best, a.

>

> Andy

April 12, 2001

I was just wondering how the estrogen/ fat cycle/carbohydrate metabolism was

assessed in this book. Women don't make enough testosterone and if the

premise of the book is to enhance testosterone and HGH, how does that affect

the female body? Wouldn't this be same as taking clenbutrine?

> He also has a section on women as muscle, but I don't think you need

> to overcome the myths, about bulking up

Women as muscle? I like that.

Myths of women bulking? Never heard of that. LOL

(Just kidding)

Sorry, guys, this is WAY off BFL. I'll move this conversation off the list.

Glenda

April 12, 2001

I was just wondering how the estrogen/ fat cycle/carbohydrate metabolism was

assessed in this book. Women don't make enough testosterone and if the

premise of the book is to enhance testosterone and HGH, how does that affect

the female body? Wouldn't this be same as taking clenbutrine?

> He also has a section on women as muscle, but I don't think you need

> to overcome the myths, about bulking up

Women as muscle? I like that.

Myths of women bulking? Never heard of that. LOL

(Just kidding)

Sorry, guys, this is WAY off BFL. I'll move this conversation off the list.

Glenda

April 13, 2001

Glenda, I read the book and there has been very little research on hormonal

effects in women with respect to the NHE eating plan, or any other way of

eating, for that matter. Gee girls, are we surprised??!! There were

hundreds if not thousands of references to men and how food intake affects

their bodies' TESTOSTERONE environment (the one and only truly important

hormone to worry about!!) but very little info on whether it affects female

hormones (I'm sure it does, but the scientific community, being

predominantly male, obviously doesn't give a fig about us....'take a Valium

dearie, I'm sure you'll be fine!') Pardon my sarcastic tone! Alyson

Re: Re: Protein / carb-cycling

> Andy, in regards to NHE, how does it relate to estrogen/progresterone for

> women

April 13, 2001