Re: After workout: High protein or high glycemic?

[Guest guest]

Is it necessary and desireable to immediately restore muscle glycogen after

working out? Would controlled eating of carbs over the two day period until

your next weight workout also restore muscle glycogen levels in time?

Just curious....

Re: Re: After workout: High protein or high glycemic?

> Nutrition for post-exercise recovery.

[Guest guest]

I am a firm believer in that you must do what is best for yourself. There

is so much info, as we have all found out, but only you can decide what to

do. (OK, I've just passed the buck!)

I think it is necessary to restore the glycogen because you've tapped into

those reserves. If you want the muscles to grow, you must feed them. If

you don't feed them, how can the muscles recuperate? Wouldn't you end up

with muscle wasting instead? That kind of defeats the purpose of lifting

weights.

Your second question is addressed in some of the literature by stating that

you have to continually feed the muscles after exercise but those articles

also state that to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis, a carb must be

consumed immediately after exercise and at frequent intervals thereafter.

I believe that theory is applied to not only to protein/ carb consumption

but also creatine. You consume creatine ( and it's sugar transport

system)( BetaGen, SyntheVol, creatine monohydrate) immediately after

exercise and then consume protein within the hour after exercise.

I don't claim to have all the answers. But I think we all have to search

for answers that fit our needs.

Glenda

> Is it necessary and desireable to immediately restore muscle glycogen

after

> working out? Would controlled eating of carbs over the two day period

until

> your next weight workout also restore muscle glycogen levels in time?

> Just curious....

[Guest guest]

I am a firm believer in that you must do what is best for yourself. There

is so much info, as we have all found out, but only you can decide what to

do. (OK, I've just passed the buck!)

I think it is necessary to restore the glycogen because you've tapped into

those reserves. If you want the muscles to grow, you must feed them. If

you don't feed them, how can the muscles recuperate? Wouldn't you end up

with muscle wasting instead? That kind of defeats the purpose of lifting

weights.

Your second question is addressed in some of the literature by stating that

you have to continually feed the muscles after exercise but those articles

also state that to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis, a carb must be

consumed immediately after exercise and at frequent intervals thereafter.

I believe that theory is applied to not only to protein/ carb consumption

but also creatine. You consume creatine ( and it's sugar transport

system)( BetaGen, SyntheVol, creatine monohydrate) immediately after

exercise and then consume protein within the hour after exercise.

I don't claim to have all the answers. But I think we all have to search

for answers that fit our needs.

Glenda

> Is it necessary and desireable to immediately restore muscle glycogen

after

> working out? Would controlled eating of carbs over the two day period

until

> your next weight workout also restore muscle glycogen levels in time?

> Just curious....

[Guest guest]

Hey, everyone's back from their Sunday off now-I love it when the posts start

coming back. Hey Suzi, you sure deserve every compliment that comes your way.

Every time I see a new person who is admiring your pictures, I think to

myself,

" Yeah, chalk one up for Suzi! " :-) Time for Easter dinner, have a great

evening!

:-)

[Guest guest]

Hey, everyone's back from their Sunday off now-I love it when the posts start

coming back. Hey Suzi, you sure deserve every compliment that comes your way.

Every time I see a new person who is admiring your pictures, I think to

myself,

" Yeah, chalk one up for Suzi! " :-) Time for Easter dinner, have a great

evening!

:-)

[Guest guest]

Faigin *relies* on medical research. That's why he has 1700

footnotes. :-) I too prefer sound scientific research; I'd never

recommend anything to anyone that didn't have sound research behind

it.

Regards,

Andy

http://www.extique.com

>

> I can honestly

> > say I've read both and found the latter more persuasive. No

offense,

> > but you haven't read both.

>

> I'm glad you found something you believe in. I, prefer medical

research and

> Mr. Faigin is not a medically trained professional. ( Neither is

Bill

> , but I found something that works for me.)

>

> Glenda

> PS: no offense taken

[Guest guest]

These reports are easy to refute by looking at one very simple thing:

in other cultures people have next to no carbs and yet their

metabolism thrives and they're strong people and have little

incidence of cancer, heart disease, etc. A prime example is the

Eskimos, who eat next to no carbs.

Regards,

Andy

> Sorry guys, but I just couldn't resist posting some literature from

medical

> journals to support consuming carbs post work-out.

>

> Glenda

>

> Nutrition for post-exercise recovery.

> Burke LM.

> Australian Institute of Sport, ACT, Australia.

>

> Recovery after exercise poses an important challenge to the modern

athlete.

> Important issues include restoration of liver and muscle glycogen

stores,

> and the replacement of fluid and electrolytes lost in sweaRapid

resynthesis

> of muscle glycogen stores is aided by the *immediate intake of

carbohydrate*

> (I g.kg-1 BM each 2 hours), particularly of *high glycemic index

> carbohydrate* foods, leading to a total intake over 24 hours of 7-

10 g.kg-1

> BM.

>

>

> Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of carbohydrate intake.

> Int J Sports Med. 1998 Jun;19 Suppl 2:S142-5.

>

> To maximize glycogen resynthesis after exercise, a carbohydrate

supplement

> in excess of 1.0 g x kg(-1) body wt should be consumed immediately

after

> competition or a training bout. Continuation of supplementation

every two

> hours will maintain a rapid rate of storage up to six hours post

exercise.

> Supplements composed of glucose or glucose polymers are the most

effective

> for replenishment of muscle glycogen, whereas fructose is most

beneficial

> for the replenishment of liver glycogen. *The addition of protein

to a

> carbohydrate supplement may also increase the rate of glycogen

storage due

> to the ability of protein and carbohydrate to act synergistically

on insulin

> secretion.*

>

> Recovery from endurance exercise.

> Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992 Sep;24(9 Suppl):S336-9.

>

> ) During training for and competition in endurance exercise

athletes often

> significantly reduce both liver and muscle glycogen reserves. 2)

> Replenishment of muscle glycogen probably occurs preferentially

over the

> replenishment of liver glycogen after exercise. 3) Muscle and liver

glycogen

> can be replenished within 24 h after exercise provided adequate

carbohydrate

> is consumed. 4) To replenish muscle glycogen within 24 h, 8-10 g

> carbohydrate.kg-1 body weight should be consumed. *5) To optimize

muscle

> glycogen synthesis during the 4-6 h after exercise, carbohydrate

must be

> consumed immediately after exercise and at frequent intervals

thereafter.*

> 6) While normal muscle and/or liver glycogen levels can be

normalized 24 h

> after exercise, muscle function may or may not be fully recovered.

>

> Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen

resynthesis

> after resistance exercise.

> J Appl Physiol. 1998 Mar;84(3):890-6.

> (CHO is a carbohydrate)

> In summary, our results indicated that the consumption of a 1 g/kg

CHO or

> CHO/Pro/fat of equal energy content immediately and 1 h after

completion of

> a resistance training bout significantly increased the rate of

muscle

> glycogen resynthesis over the first 4 h after the completion of the

exercise

> compared with a placebo. This suggests that total energy content

and CHO

> content are important in the resynthesis of muscle glycogen.

[Guest guest]

The Eskimo's look pretty fat too me!

--- neo-reality@... wrote:

> These reports are easy to refute by looking at one very

> simple thing:

> in other cultures people have next to no carbs and yet

> their

> metabolism thrives and they're strong people and have

> little

> incidence of cancer, heart disease, etc. A prime example

> is the

> Eskimos, who eat next to no carbs.

>

> Regards,

> Andy

>

>

> > Sorry guys, but I just couldn't resist posting some

> literature from

> medical

> > journals to support consuming carbs post work-out.

> >

> > Glenda

> >

> > Nutrition for post-exercise recovery.

> > Burke LM.

> > Australian Institute of Sport, ACT, Australia.

> >

> > Recovery after exercise poses an important challenge to

> the modern

> athlete.

> > Important issues include restoration of liver and

> muscle glycogen

> stores,

> > and the replacement of fluid and electrolytes lost in

> sweaRapid

> resynthesis

> > of muscle glycogen stores is aided by the *immediate

> intake of

> carbohydrate*

> > (I g.kg-1 BM each 2 hours), particularly of *high

> glycemic index

> > carbohydrate* foods, leading to a total intake over 24

> hours of 7-

> 10 g.kg-1

> > BM.

> >

> >

> > Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of

> carbohydrate intake.

> > Int J Sports Med. 1998 Jun;19 Suppl 2:S142-5.

> >

> > To maximize glycogen resynthesis after exercise, a

> carbohydrate

> supplement

> > in excess of 1.0 g x kg(-1) body wt should be consumed

> immediately

> after

> > competition or a training bout. Continuation of

> supplementation

> every two

> > hours will maintain a rapid rate of storage up to six

> hours post

> exercise.

> > Supplements composed of glucose or glucose polymers are

> the most

> effective

> > for replenishment of muscle glycogen, whereas fructose

> is most

> beneficial

> > for the replenishment of liver glycogen. *The addition

> of protein

> to a

> > carbohydrate supplement may also increase the rate of

> glycogen

> storage due

> > to the ability of protein and carbohydrate to act

> synergistically

> on insulin

> > secretion.*

> >

> > Recovery from endurance exercise.

> > Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992 Sep;24(9 Suppl):S336-9.

> >

> > ) During training for and competition in endurance

> exercise

> athletes often

> > significantly reduce both liver and muscle glycogen

> reserves. 2)

> > Replenishment of muscle glycogen probably occurs

> preferentially

> over the

> > replenishment of liver glycogen after exercise. 3)

> Muscle and liver

> glycogen

> > can be replenished within 24 h after exercise provided

> adequate

> carbohydrate

> > is consumed. 4) To replenish muscle glycogen within 24

> h, 8-10 g

> > carbohydrate.kg-1 body weight should be consumed. *5)

> To optimize

> muscle

> > glycogen synthesis during the 4-6 h after exercise,

> carbohydrate

> must be

> > consumed immediately after exercise and at frequent

> intervals

> thereafter.*

> > 6) While normal muscle and/or liver glycogen levels can

> be

> normalized 24 h

> > after exercise, muscle function may or may not be fully

> recovered.

> >

> > Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle

> glycogen

> resynthesis

> > after resistance exercise.

> > J Appl Physiol. 1998 Mar;84(3):890-6.

> > (CHO is a carbohydrate)

> > In summary, our results indicated that the consumption

> of a 1 g/kg

> CHO or

> > CHO/Pro/fat of equal energy content immediately and 1 h

> after

> completion of

> > a resistance training bout significantly increased the

> rate of

> muscle

> > glycogen resynthesis over the first 4 h after the

> completion of the

> exercise

> > compared with a placebo. This suggests that total

> energy content

> and CHO

> > content are important in the resynthesis of muscle

> glycogen.

>

>

=====

-Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in

Australia.

Schultz -

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

The Eskimo's look pretty fat too me!

--- neo-reality@... wrote:

> These reports are easy to refute by looking at one very

> simple thing:

> in other cultures people have next to no carbs and yet

> their

> metabolism thrives and they're strong people and have

> little

> incidence of cancer, heart disease, etc. A prime example

> is the

> Eskimos, who eat next to no carbs.

>

> Regards,

> Andy

>

>

> > Sorry guys, but I just couldn't resist posting some

> literature from

> medical

> > journals to support consuming carbs post work-out.

> >

> > Glenda

> >

> > Nutrition for post-exercise recovery.

> > Burke LM.

> > Australian Institute of Sport, ACT, Australia.

> >

> > Recovery after exercise poses an important challenge to

> the modern

> athlete.

> > Important issues include restoration of liver and

> muscle glycogen

> stores,

> > and the replacement of fluid and electrolytes lost in

> sweaRapid

> resynthesis

> > of muscle glycogen stores is aided by the *immediate

> intake of

> carbohydrate*

> > (I g.kg-1 BM each 2 hours), particularly of *high

> glycemic index

> > carbohydrate* foods, leading to a total intake over 24

> hours of 7-

> 10 g.kg-1

> > BM.

> >

> >

> > Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of

> carbohydrate intake.

> > Int J Sports Med. 1998 Jun;19 Suppl 2:S142-5.

> >

> > To maximize glycogen resynthesis after exercise, a

> carbohydrate

> supplement

> > in excess of 1.0 g x kg(-1) body wt should be consumed

> immediately

> after

> > competition or a training bout. Continuation of

> supplementation

> every two

> > hours will maintain a rapid rate of storage up to six

> hours post

> exercise.

> > Supplements composed of glucose or glucose polymers are

> the most

> effective

> > for replenishment of muscle glycogen, whereas fructose

> is most

> beneficial

> > for the replenishment of liver glycogen. *The addition

> of protein

> to a

> > carbohydrate supplement may also increase the rate of

> glycogen

> storage due

> > to the ability of protein and carbohydrate to act

> synergistically

> on insulin

> > secretion.*

> >

> > Recovery from endurance exercise.

> > Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992 Sep;24(9 Suppl):S336-9.

> >

> > ) During training for and competition in endurance

> exercise

> athletes often

> > significantly reduce both liver and muscle glycogen

> reserves. 2)

> > Replenishment of muscle glycogen probably occurs

> preferentially

> over the

> > replenishment of liver glycogen after exercise. 3)

> Muscle and liver

> glycogen

> > can be replenished within 24 h after exercise provided

> adequate

> carbohydrate

> > is consumed. 4) To replenish muscle glycogen within 24

> h, 8-10 g

> > carbohydrate.kg-1 body weight should be consumed. *5)

> To optimize

> muscle

> > glycogen synthesis during the 4-6 h after exercise,

> carbohydrate

> must be

> > consumed immediately after exercise and at frequent

> intervals

> thereafter.*

> > 6) While normal muscle and/or liver glycogen levels can

> be

> normalized 24 h

> > after exercise, muscle function may or may not be fully

> recovered.

> >

> > Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle

> glycogen

> resynthesis

> > after resistance exercise.

> > J Appl Physiol. 1998 Mar;84(3):890-6.

> > (CHO is a carbohydrate)

> > In summary, our results indicated that the consumption

> of a 1 g/kg

> CHO or

> > CHO/Pro/fat of equal energy content immediately and 1 h

> after

> completion of

> > a resistance training bout significantly increased the

> rate of

> muscle

> > glycogen resynthesis over the first 4 h after the

> completion of the

> exercise

> > compared with a placebo. This suggests that total

> energy content

> and CHO

> > content are important in the resynthesis of muscle

> glycogen.

>

>

=====

-Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in

Australia.

Schultz -

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

< I think it is necessary to restore the glycogen because you've

tapped into those reserves. If you want the muscles to grow, you

must feed them. If you don't feed them, how can the muscles

recuperate? Wouldn't you end up with muscle wasting instead? >

No. Otherwise Rob Faigin and those who've followed his plan would be

stringbeans. :-)

< I believe that theory is applied to not only to protein/ carb

consumption but also creatine. You consume creatine ( and it's sugar

transport system)(BetaGen, SyntheVol, creatine monohydrate)

immediately after exercise and then consume protein within the hour

after exercise. >

Another point of view:

" [R]educed carbohydrate consumption promotes increased 'glycogen use

efficiency,' meaning that you burn less glycogen for average daily

activities (and burn correspondingly more fat). Moreover, a higher

proportion of fat intake [i.e., on the low-carb days] promotes

greater intramuscular triglyceride utilization, and this aids

performance of high-intensity work. "

(Rob Faigin, http://www.extique.com/askrob.htm)

" The notion that creatine is worthless unless taken with carbohydrate

is categorically false. For hundreds-of-thousands of years 'man the

hunter' got creatine from meat unaccompanied by a high-sugar drink

(however, a quantity of creatine sufficient to promote maximum

anaerobic output is not reasonably obtainable through food alone).

But now, to secure their market share of creatine sales, some

supplement companies have propagated the idea that creatine doesn't

work unless you take it with some special concoction of cheap sugars

that they sell. Nonsense.

" Studies do show that consuming creatine with carbohydrate increases

its uptake by the muscles via the action of insulin. However, this

does not mean that without an insulin surge creatine cannot be

absorbed by the muscles. It simply means you must ingest

correspondingly more creatine to get the same absolute amount of

creatine absorption since the rate of absorption is lower - in the

same way that you must drive for a longer period of time to go a

certain distance traveling 50 MPH than if you were traveling 80 MPH.

You should weigh the incremental benefit of taking creatine with

carbs against the detriment of evoking insulin's other, less

desirable, properties.

" Having said this, the NHE Eating Plan is actually quite compatible

with creatine supplementation. The carb-load meals provide an ideal

occasion to load creatine, not only because of the insulin spike it

creates but also because of the 'glycogen supercompensation effect'

discussed in NHE. Although there are no studies on this specific

issue, it is reasonable to postulate that creatine uptake by the

muscles will be accelerated if creatine is consumed at a time when

glucose uptake is accelerated. During the downcycle, when carbs are

low, you can enhance creatine absorption and retention by taking it

immediately after training. This is when ATP regeneration and

phosphate synthesis are at a peak. (This does not mean you shouldn't

also take it before training.)

" Overall, I believe that the benefits of macronutrient cycling as

outlined in Natural Hormonal Enhancement - in terms of health, muscle

building, and fat burning - vastly outweigh the modest, and

compensable, reduction in creatine absorption resulting from

consuming it unaccompanied with carbohydrate. Your overall diet is

much more important than creatine and will have a much greater

influence on your health and physique. Therefore, to allow creatine-

loading to dictate your diet, rather than your diet dictate creatine-

loading is a case of inverted priorities. "

Regards,

Andy

[Guest guest]

< I think it is necessary to restore the glycogen because you've

tapped into those reserves. If you want the muscles to grow, you

must feed them. If you don't feed them, how can the muscles

recuperate? Wouldn't you end up with muscle wasting instead? >

No. Otherwise Rob Faigin and those who've followed his plan would be

stringbeans. :-)

< I believe that theory is applied to not only to protein/ carb

consumption but also creatine. You consume creatine ( and it's sugar

transport system)(BetaGen, SyntheVol, creatine monohydrate)

immediately after exercise and then consume protein within the hour

after exercise. >

Another point of view:

" [R]educed carbohydrate consumption promotes increased 'glycogen use

efficiency,' meaning that you burn less glycogen for average daily

activities (and burn correspondingly more fat). Moreover, a higher

proportion of fat intake [i.e., on the low-carb days] promotes

greater intramuscular triglyceride utilization, and this aids

performance of high-intensity work. "

(Rob Faigin, http://www.extique.com/askrob.htm)

" The notion that creatine is worthless unless taken with carbohydrate

is categorically false. For hundreds-of-thousands of years 'man the

hunter' got creatine from meat unaccompanied by a high-sugar drink

(however, a quantity of creatine sufficient to promote maximum

anaerobic output is not reasonably obtainable through food alone).

But now, to secure their market share of creatine sales, some

supplement companies have propagated the idea that creatine doesn't

work unless you take it with some special concoction of cheap sugars

that they sell. Nonsense.

" Studies do show that consuming creatine with carbohydrate increases

its uptake by the muscles via the action of insulin. However, this

does not mean that without an insulin surge creatine cannot be

absorbed by the muscles. It simply means you must ingest

correspondingly more creatine to get the same absolute amount of

creatine absorption since the rate of absorption is lower - in the

same way that you must drive for a longer period of time to go a

certain distance traveling 50 MPH than if you were traveling 80 MPH.

You should weigh the incremental benefit of taking creatine with

carbs against the detriment of evoking insulin's other, less

desirable, properties.

" Having said this, the NHE Eating Plan is actually quite compatible

with creatine supplementation. The carb-load meals provide an ideal

occasion to load creatine, not only because of the insulin spike it

creates but also because of the 'glycogen supercompensation effect'

discussed in NHE. Although there are no studies on this specific

issue, it is reasonable to postulate that creatine uptake by the

muscles will be accelerated if creatine is consumed at a time when

glucose uptake is accelerated. During the downcycle, when carbs are

low, you can enhance creatine absorption and retention by taking it

immediately after training. This is when ATP regeneration and

phosphate synthesis are at a peak. (This does not mean you shouldn't

also take it before training.)

" Overall, I believe that the benefits of macronutrient cycling as

outlined in Natural Hormonal Enhancement - in terms of health, muscle

building, and fat burning - vastly outweigh the modest, and

compensable, reduction in creatine absorption resulting from

consuming it unaccompanied with carbohydrate. Your overall diet is

much more important than creatine and will have a much greater

influence on your health and physique. Therefore, to allow creatine-

loading to dictate your diet, rather than your diet dictate creatine-

loading is a case of inverted priorities. "

Regards,

Andy

[Guest guest]

How many have you met?

> > > Sorry guys, but I just couldn't resist posting some

> > literature from

> > medical

> > > journals to support consuming carbs post work-out.

> > >

> > > Glenda

> > >

> > > Nutrition for post-exercise recovery.

> > > Burke LM.

> > > Australian Institute of Sport, ACT, Australia.

> > >

> > > Recovery after exercise poses an important challenge to

> > the modern

> > athlete.

> > > Important issues include restoration of liver and

> > muscle glycogen

> > stores,

> > > and the replacement of fluid and electrolytes lost in

> > sweaRapid

> > resynthesis

> > > of muscle glycogen stores is aided by the *immediate

> > intake of

> > carbohydrate*

> > > (I g.kg-1 BM each 2 hours), particularly of *high

> > glycemic index

> > > carbohydrate* foods, leading to a total intake over 24

> > hours of 7-

> > 10 g.kg-1

> > > BM.

> > >

> > >

> > > Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of

> > carbohydrate intake.

> > > Int J Sports Med. 1998 Jun;19 Suppl 2:S142-5.

> > >

> > > To maximize glycogen resynthesis after exercise, a

> > carbohydrate

> > supplement

> > > in excess of 1.0 g x kg(-1) body wt should be consumed

> > immediately

> > after

> > > competition or a training bout. Continuation of

> > supplementation

> > every two

> > > hours will maintain a rapid rate of storage up to six

> > hours post

> > exercise.

> > > Supplements composed of glucose or glucose polymers are

> > the most

> > effective

> > > for replenishment of muscle glycogen, whereas fructose

> > is most

> > beneficial

> > > for the replenishment of liver glycogen. *The addition

> > of protein

> > to a

> > > carbohydrate supplement may also increase the rate of

> > glycogen

> > storage due

> > > to the ability of protein and carbohydrate to act

> > synergistically

> > on insulin

> > > secretion.*

> > >

> > > Recovery from endurance exercise.

> > > Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992 Sep;24(9 Suppl):S336-9.

> > >

> > > ) During training for and competition in endurance

> > exercise

> > athletes often

> > > significantly reduce both liver and muscle glycogen

> > reserves. 2)

> > > Replenishment of muscle glycogen probably occurs

> > preferentially

> > over the

> > > replenishment of liver glycogen after exercise. 3)

> > Muscle and liver

> > glycogen

> > > can be replenished within 24 h after exercise provided

> > adequate

> > carbohydrate

> > > is consumed. 4) To replenish muscle glycogen within 24

> > h, 8-10 g

> > > carbohydrate.kg-1 body weight should be consumed. *5)

> > To optimize

> > muscle

> > > glycogen synthesis during the 4-6 h after exercise,

> > carbohydrate

> > must be

> > > consumed immediately after exercise and at frequent

> > intervals

> > thereafter.*

> > > 6) While normal muscle and/or liver glycogen levels can

> > be

> > normalized 24 h

> > > after exercise, muscle function may or may not be fully

> > recovered.

> > >

> > > Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle

> > glycogen

> > resynthesis

> > > after resistance exercise.

> > > J Appl Physiol. 1998 Mar;84(3):890-6.

> > > (CHO is a carbohydrate)

> > > In summary, our results indicated that the consumption

> > of a 1 g/kg

> > CHO or

> > > CHO/Pro/fat of equal energy content immediately and 1 h

> > after

> > completion of

> > > a resistance training bout significantly increased the

> > rate of

> > muscle

> > > glycogen resynthesis over the first 4 h after the

> > completion of the

> > exercise

> > > compared with a placebo. This suggests that total

> > energy content

> > and CHO

> > > content are important in the resynthesis of muscle

> > glycogen.

> >

> >

>

>

> =====

> -Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already

tomorrow in Australia.

> Schultz -

>

> __________________________________________________

>