Re: After workout: High protein or high glycemic?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the simplicity, Kit-

:-)

[Guest guest]

< I've read conflicting things. I usually down a half glass of oj or

lemonade with creatine and glutamine when I get home from the gym

(takes me about a half hour after working out to get home), >

, one thing Bill has not apparently done - although

there are many things about BFL that make sense to me - is heavy

research into hormones and their effect on fitness. High carbs

immediately following a workout are detrimental, according to what

seems to *me* to be the best research out there. About fruit juice,

Rob Faigin writes,

" . . . I don't deny that fruit juice is nutritious, and if it were

the only available source of vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants, I

would heartily endorse its consumption; but this is not the case.

The NHE Eating Plan advocates consumption of fruits and vegetables in

their natural form, not in their degraded form. The concept of fruit

juice as unnatural runs counter to its reputation. But as is the

case with soda, juice is a very recent addition to the human diet.

The 'ancient warriors' drank juice as often as they drank soda -

never.

" 'Unnaturalness,' in and of itself, does not render a food

unworthy. Vitamin supplements are 'unnatural' in a sense, but they

can also be very beneficial. Poisonous mushrooms, on the other hand,

are 'natural' but will kill you instantly. The problem with juice is

that it has been unnaturally altered in such a way as to make it

hormonally disadvantageous. Specifically, it has been stripped of

most of its fiber content. Because the removal of fiber greatly

increases both the caloric density of a food and the rate at which

sugar from that food enters the bloodstream, fruit juice provokes a

much sharper insulin response than does whole fruit.

Furthermore, 'juicing' a fruit or vegetable vastly diminishes its

thermogenic, or metabolism-raising, value. In effect, drinking juice

is like intravenously administering sugar into your body (not a

helpful practice for someone striving to be a fat-burner rather than

a sugar-burner). "

[NATURAL HORMONAL ENHANCEMENT, p129]

< I have heard to have a relatively high glycemic meal like turkey on

a bagel an hour after workout. I read other posts saying high

protein after a workout. Others say eat right after a workout. Is

it different if it is cardio v weights? >

Yes, because a post-workout protein meal after *weight training* is

specifically geared to enhance muscle-building, whereas when you've

done a cardio workout that's not your concern.

You can learn more about these and other issues at Faigin's site:

http://www.extique.com. By the way, it seems to me that one of the

effects of manipulating one's hormone levels, as per the NHE eating

plan, is that there is less need, perhaps no need, for supplements,

which of course saves one a lot of money. You can achieve some great

effects just by using *certain* natural foods at *certain* times.

Best wishes,

Andy

[Guest guest]

How does the creatine and glutamine work for you? I've been considering that combination myself. Which glutamine do you buy? I've heard conflicting comments about different brands. Does the OJ work better than grape juice?

Glenda

I've read conflicting things. I usually down a half glass of oj or lemonade with creatine and glutamine when I get home from the gym (takes me about a half hour after working out to get home), I have heard to have a relatively high glycemic meal like turkey on a bagel an hour after workout. I read other posts saying high protein after a workout. Others say eat right after a workout. Is it different if it is cardio v weights?

[Guest guest]

There are as many theories as there are experts....

Ain'thtat the truth? My head is spinning. Too Much Info for me! Since the book worked for Sara and Glenda, I'm just gonna stick to it! .

[Guest guest]

There are as many theories as there are experts. Muscle media

interviewed a couple of experts in the March or April issue and the

bottom line was that they recommended protein without carb

immediately after a weight workout and then a balanced BFL style meal

45 minutes later.

Cardio a balanced BFL style meal an hour after cardio to get the post

cardio fat burning advantages.

Kit

> I've read conflicting things. I usually down a half glass of oj or

lemonade with creatine and glutamine when I get home from the gym

(takes me about a half hour after working out to get home), I have

heard to have a relatively high glycemic meal like turkey on a bagel

an hour after workout. I read other posts saying high protein after

a workout. Others say eat right after a workout. Is it different if

it is cardio v weights?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Avoid acid juices with creatine. You are better with grape, apple,

cranberry.

> How does the creatine and glutamine work for you? I've been

considering that combination myself. Which glutamine do you buy?

I've heard conflicting comments about different brands. Does the OJ

work better than grape juice?

>

> Glenda

>

> I've read conflicting things. I usually down a half glass of oj

or lemonade with creatine and glutamine when I get home from the gym

(takes me about a half hour after working out to get home), I have

heard to have a relatively high glycemic meal like turkey on a bagel

an hour after workout. I read other posts saying high protein after

a workout. Others say eat right after a workout. Is it different if

it is cardio v weights?

[Guest guest]

Andy, the reason she drinks a fruit juice after is because is using

glutamine and creatine and creatine needs a transport system to push the it

into the muscle.

Glenda

> , one thing Bill has not apparently done - although

> there are many things about BFL that make sense to me - is heavy

> research into hormones and their effect on fitness. High carbs

> immediately following a workout are detrimental, according to what

> seems to *me* to be the best research out there. About fruit juice,

[Guest guest]

And this article says something different:

http://www.musclemedia.com/magazine/v85/v85_nutritionbasics.asp

The last paragraph:

" Overall, it would appear that it doesn't matter if you're looking to gain

muscle, burn fat, or both-waiting an hour after exercise before consuming a

carbohydrate- and protein-containing shake may be best. "

> There are as many theories as there are experts. Muscle media

> interviewed a couple of experts in the March or April issue and the

> bottom line was that they recommended protein without carb

> immediately after a weight workout and then a balanced BFL style meal

> 45 minutes later.

[Guest guest]

And this article says something different:

http://www.musclemedia.com/magazine/v85/v85_nutritionbasics.asp

The last paragraph:

" Overall, it would appear that it doesn't matter if you're looking to gain

muscle, burn fat, or both-waiting an hour after exercise before consuming a

carbohydrate- and protein-containing shake may be best. "

> There are as many theories as there are experts. Muscle media

> interviewed a couple of experts in the March or April issue and the

> bottom line was that they recommended protein without carb

> immediately after a weight workout and then a balanced BFL style meal

> 45 minutes later.

[Guest guest]

You can't just mix creatine with plain water?

Andy

> Andy, the reason she drinks a fruit juice after is because is using

> glutamine and creatine and creatine needs a transport system to

push the it

> into the muscle.

>

> Glenda

>

>

> > , one thing Bill has not apparently done - although

> > there are many things about BFL that make sense to me - is heavy

> > research into hormones and their effect on fitness. High carbs

> > immediately following a workout are detrimental, according to what

> > seems to *me* to be the best research out there. About fruit

juice,

[Guest guest]

yes you can, but the absorption isn't as good, I mix mine with water

because I can't have the extra carbs on the NHE eating plan, or

should I say I would rather spend my carbs in a better way.

Bill

> > Andy, the reason she drinks a fruit juice after is because is

using

> > glutamine and creatine and creatine needs a transport system to

> push the it

> > into the muscle.

> >

> > Glenda

> >

> >

> > > , one thing Bill has not apparently done -

although

> > > there are many things about BFL that make sense to me - is heavy

> > > research into hormones and their effect on fitness. High carbs

> > > immediately following a workout are detrimental, according to

what

> > > seems to *me* to be the best research out there. About fruit

> juice,

[Guest guest]

yes you can, but the absorption isn't as good, I mix mine with water

because I can't have the extra carbs on the NHE eating plan, or

should I say I would rather spend my carbs in a better way.

Bill

> > Andy, the reason she drinks a fruit juice after is because is

using

> > glutamine and creatine and creatine needs a transport system to

> push the it

> > into the muscle.

> >

> > Glenda

> >

> >

> > > , one thing Bill has not apparently done -

although

> > > there are many things about BFL that make sense to me - is heavy

> > > research into hormones and their effect on fitness. High carbs

> > > immediately following a workout are detrimental, according to

what

> > > seems to *me* to be the best research out there. About fruit

> juice,

[Guest guest]

The best " layman's " terminology is at the Hussman site under the cortisol

sub heading.

glenda

> Glenda,

>

> I certainly don't think you're unknowledgeable, not at all. But

> could you point me to some documentation for the idea that one should

> seek a post-workout insulin spike?

>

> Thanks,

> Andy

[Guest guest]

The best " layman's " terminology is at the Hussman site under the cortisol

sub heading.

glenda

> Glenda,

>

> I certainly don't think you're unknowledgeable, not at all. But

> could you point me to some documentation for the idea that one should

> seek a post-workout insulin spike?

>

> Thanks,

> Andy

[Guest guest]

The best " layman's " terminology is at the Hussman site under the cortisol

sub heading.

glenda

> Glenda,

>

> I certainly don't think you're unknowledgeable, not at all. But

> could you point me to some documentation for the idea that one should

> seek a post-workout insulin spike?

>

> Thanks,

> Andy

[Guest guest]

Actually that's not saying anything different. The quotation you

gave endorses eating a protein-carb *combo* one hour after the

workout. This doesn't necessarily contradict the idea of having

*protein only* _immediately_ after the workout, as Kit posted. (Mind

you - and this would be the difference in the Faigin plan - if your

immediate, post-workout protein shake has enough calories in it, then

it becomes a sufficient meal in and of itself, and an hour later you

wouldn't need to eat again, but rather 2 1/2 or 3 hours later.)

Regards,

Andy

>

> And this article says something different:

> http://www.musclemedia.com/magazine/v85/v85_nutritionbasics.asp

> The last paragraph:

> " Overall, it would appear that it doesn't matter if you're looking

to gain

> muscle, burn fat, or both-waiting an hour after exercise before

consuming a

> carbohydrate- and protein-containing shake may be best. "

>

> > There are as many theories as there are experts. Muscle media

> > interviewed a couple of experts in the March or April issue and

the

> > bottom line was that they recommended protein without carb

> > immediately after a weight workout and then a balanced BFL style

meal

> > 45 minutes later.

[Guest guest]

Actually that's not saying anything different. The quotation you

gave endorses eating a protein-carb *combo* one hour after the

workout. This doesn't necessarily contradict the idea of having

*protein only* _immediately_ after the workout, as Kit posted. (Mind

you - and this would be the difference in the Faigin plan - if your

immediate, post-workout protein shake has enough calories in it, then

it becomes a sufficient meal in and of itself, and an hour later you

wouldn't need to eat again, but rather 2 1/2 or 3 hours later.)

Regards,

Andy

>

> And this article says something different:

> http://www.musclemedia.com/magazine/v85/v85_nutritionbasics.asp

> The last paragraph:

> " Overall, it would appear that it doesn't matter if you're looking

to gain

> muscle, burn fat, or both-waiting an hour after exercise before

consuming a

> carbohydrate- and protein-containing shake may be best. "

>

> > There are as many theories as there are experts. Muscle media

> > interviewed a couple of experts in the March or April issue and

the

> > bottom line was that they recommended protein without carb

> > immediately after a weight workout and then a balanced BFL style

meal

> > 45 minutes later.

[Guest guest]

No doubt! And it's up to *us* to evaluate the arguments to see who

has the best ones. All I can say is that NATURAL HORMONAL

ENHANCEMENT puts forth the best scientific arguments I've ever come

across.

Regards,

Andy

> There are as many theories as there are experts....

>

> Ain'thtat the truth? My head is spinning. Too Much Info for me!

Since the

> book worked for Sara and Glenda, I'm just gonna stick to it! .

>

>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

No doubt! And it's up to *us* to evaluate the arguments to see who

has the best ones. All I can say is that NATURAL HORMONAL

ENHANCEMENT puts forth the best scientific arguments I've ever come

across.

Regards,

Andy

> There are as many theories as there are experts....

>

> Ain'thtat the truth? My head is spinning. Too Much Info for me!

Since the

> book worked for Sara and Glenda, I'm just gonna stick to it! .

>

>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes, I read Hussman before reading NHE, and - sorry - Faigin has by

far the better arguments with more research backup. All of us must

compare and contrast the things we hear and read from others, and

that's all I've done with re. to Hussman and Faigin. I can honestly

say I've read both and found the latter more persuasive. No offense,

but you haven't read both.

Regards,

Andy

>

> The best " layman's " terminology is at the Hussman site under the

cortisol

> sub heading.

>

> glenda

[Guest guest]

Yes, I read Hussman before reading NHE, and - sorry - Faigin has by

far the better arguments with more research backup. All of us must

compare and contrast the things we hear and read from others, and

that's all I've done with re. to Hussman and Faigin. I can honestly

say I've read both and found the latter more persuasive. No offense,

but you haven't read both.

Regards,

Andy

>

> The best " layman's " terminology is at the Hussman site under the

cortisol

> sub heading.

>

> glenda

[Guest guest]

I can honestly

> say I've read both and found the latter more persuasive. No offense,

> but you haven't read both.

I'm glad you found something you believe in. I, prefer medical research and

Mr. Faigin is not a medically trained professional. ( Neither is Bill

, but I found something that works for me.)

Glenda

PS: no offense taken

[Guest guest]

I can honestly

> say I've read both and found the latter more persuasive. No offense,

> but you haven't read both.

I'm glad you found something you believe in. I, prefer medical research and

Mr. Faigin is not a medically trained professional. ( Neither is Bill

, but I found something that works for me.)

Glenda

PS: no offense taken

[Guest guest]

Sorry guys, but I just couldn't resist posting some literature from medical

journals to support consuming carbs post work-out.

Glenda

Nutrition for post-exercise recovery.

Burke LM.

Australian Institute of Sport, ACT, Australia.

Recovery after exercise poses an important challenge to the modern athlete.

Important issues include restoration of liver and muscle glycogen stores,

and the replacement of fluid and electrolytes lost in sweaRapid resynthesis

of muscle glycogen stores is aided by the *immediate intake of carbohydrate*

(I g.kg-1 BM each 2 hours), particularly of *high glycemic index

carbohydrate* foods, leading to a total intake over 24 hours of 7-10 g.kg-1

BM.

Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of carbohydrate intake.

Int J Sports Med. 1998 Jun;19 Suppl 2:S142-5.

To maximize glycogen resynthesis after exercise, a carbohydrate supplement

in excess of 1.0 g x kg(-1) body wt should be consumed immediately after

competition or a training bout. Continuation of supplementation every two

hours will maintain a rapid rate of storage up to six hours post exercise.

Supplements composed of glucose or glucose polymers are the most effective

for replenishment of muscle glycogen, whereas fructose is most beneficial

for the replenishment of liver glycogen. *The addition of protein to a

carbohydrate supplement may also increase the rate of glycogen storage due

to the ability of protein and carbohydrate to act synergistically on insulin

secretion.*

Recovery from endurance exercise.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992 Sep;24(9 Suppl):S336-9.

) During training for and competition in endurance exercise athletes often

significantly reduce both liver and muscle glycogen reserves. 2)

Replenishment of muscle glycogen probably occurs preferentially over the

replenishment of liver glycogen after exercise. 3) Muscle and liver glycogen

can be replenished within 24 h after exercise provided adequate carbohydrate

is consumed. 4) To replenish muscle glycogen within 24 h, 8-10 g

carbohydrate.kg-1 body weight should be consumed. *5) To optimize muscle

glycogen synthesis during the 4-6 h after exercise, carbohydrate must be

consumed immediately after exercise and at frequent intervals thereafter.*

6) While normal muscle and/or liver glycogen levels can be normalized 24 h

after exercise, muscle function may or may not be fully recovered.

Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis

after resistance exercise.

J Appl Physiol. 1998 Mar;84(3):890-6.

(CHO is a carbohydrate)

In summary, our results indicated that the consumption of a 1 g/kg CHO or

CHO/Pro/fat of equal energy content immediately and 1 h after completion of

a resistance training bout significantly increased the rate of muscle

glycogen resynthesis over the first 4 h after the completion of the exercise

compared with a placebo. This suggests that total energy content and CHO

content are important in the resynthesis of muscle glycogen.

[Guest guest]

Sorry guys, but I just couldn't resist posting some literature from medical

journals to support consuming carbs post work-out.

Glenda

Nutrition for post-exercise recovery.

Burke LM.

Australian Institute of Sport, ACT, Australia.

Recovery after exercise poses an important challenge to the modern athlete.

Important issues include restoration of liver and muscle glycogen stores,

and the replacement of fluid and electrolytes lost in sweaRapid resynthesis

of muscle glycogen stores is aided by the *immediate intake of carbohydrate*

(I g.kg-1 BM each 2 hours), particularly of *high glycemic index

carbohydrate* foods, leading to a total intake over 24 hours of 7-10 g.kg-1

BM.

Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of carbohydrate intake.

Int J Sports Med. 1998 Jun;19 Suppl 2:S142-5.

To maximize glycogen resynthesis after exercise, a carbohydrate supplement

in excess of 1.0 g x kg(-1) body wt should be consumed immediately after

competition or a training bout. Continuation of supplementation every two

hours will maintain a rapid rate of storage up to six hours post exercise.

Supplements composed of glucose or glucose polymers are the most effective

for replenishment of muscle glycogen, whereas fructose is most beneficial

for the replenishment of liver glycogen. *The addition of protein to a

carbohydrate supplement may also increase the rate of glycogen storage due

to the ability of protein and carbohydrate to act synergistically on insulin

secretion.*

Recovery from endurance exercise.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1992 Sep;24(9 Suppl):S336-9.

) During training for and competition in endurance exercise athletes often

significantly reduce both liver and muscle glycogen reserves. 2)

Replenishment of muscle glycogen probably occurs preferentially over the

replenishment of liver glycogen after exercise. 3) Muscle and liver glycogen

can be replenished within 24 h after exercise provided adequate carbohydrate

is consumed. 4) To replenish muscle glycogen within 24 h, 8-10 g

carbohydrate.kg-1 body weight should be consumed. *5) To optimize muscle

glycogen synthesis during the 4-6 h after exercise, carbohydrate must be

consumed immediately after exercise and at frequent intervals thereafter.*

6) While normal muscle and/or liver glycogen levels can be normalized 24 h

after exercise, muscle function may or may not be fully recovered.

Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis

after resistance exercise.

J Appl Physiol. 1998 Mar;84(3):890-6.

(CHO is a carbohydrate)

In summary, our results indicated that the consumption of a 1 g/kg CHO or

CHO/Pro/fat of equal energy content immediately and 1 h after completion of

a resistance training bout significantly increased the rate of muscle

glycogen resynthesis over the first 4 h after the completion of the exercise

compared with a placebo. This suggests that total energy content and CHO

content are important in the resynthesis of muscle glycogen.