Re: What is the Matter With People?

[Guest guest]

Well, I will have to review subsequent posts to see what's going on

since people tend to reespond in the order in which posts are made.

I may respond to some of them in order to facilitate better relations

between members.

Tom

Administrator

Ok. I was excited when I signed on and saw all these posts and after

reading the first one or two I was going to respond with some of the

things that have happened at my mother's school.

However, this has gotten far too heated, so this thread is closed.

[Guest guest]

Tom, parents cannot be blamed outright NOR can they be dismissed

outright as the report shows. That is why we have courts and hearings

and expert witnesses.. and dont base legal judgments on chat room

bulletine boards

>

> " as for bullies... I look to the home.... I can see them to this

day

> in

> teh neighborhood in the making and I can tell you it comes from the

> home. "

>

> There is some validity to this.

>

> However...

>

> The American Psychological Association has some good facts on the

> causes of bullying. They say:

>

> " Children who regularly bully their peers tend to be impulsive,

> easily frustrated, dominant in personality, have difficulty

> conforming to rules, view violence positively and are more likely

to

> have friends who are also bullies. Boys who bully are usually

> physically stronger than their peers.

>

> " Moreover, several risk factors have been associated with bullying,

> including individual, family, peer, school, and community factors.

> With respect to family factors, children are more likely to bully

if

> there is a lack of warmth and parent involvement, lack of parental

> supervision, and harsh corporal discipline. Some research suggests

a

> link between bullying behavior and child maltreatment. Also,

schools

> that lack adequate adult supervision tend to have more instances of

> bullying. "

>

> http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/bullying.html

>

> Here the APA agrees with you on the parenting issue, so quite

> possibly you are correct. And yet there are many other causative

> factors as well, including schools that lack adequate adult

> supervision.

>

> Ergo, without further investigation, one cannot blame the parents

> outright for bullying behavior.

>

> At the moment, I am composing an extensive podcast on bullying, and

> the research is quite startling.

>

> Further studies indicate that bullying could be the result of

> defective genes, too much testosterone in the system, watching too

> much TV, having a diagnosed difference or disorder, and even being

> tall.

>

> Adults and children alike who have any one of the above criteria

may

> be a bully. Children, when faced with situations they deem

> inescapable, may indeed respond to them in the manner in which this

> 6 year old did.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Tom, parents cannot be blamed outright NOR can they be dismissed

outright as the report shows. That is why we have courts and hearings

and expert witnesses.. and dont base legal judgments on chat room

bulletine boards

>

> " as for bullies... I look to the home.... I can see them to this

day

> in

> teh neighborhood in the making and I can tell you it comes from the

> home. "

>

> There is some validity to this.

>

> However...

>

> The American Psychological Association has some good facts on the

> causes of bullying. They say:

>

> " Children who regularly bully their peers tend to be impulsive,

> easily frustrated, dominant in personality, have difficulty

> conforming to rules, view violence positively and are more likely

to

> have friends who are also bullies. Boys who bully are usually

> physically stronger than their peers.

>

> " Moreover, several risk factors have been associated with bullying,

> including individual, family, peer, school, and community factors.

> With respect to family factors, children are more likely to bully

if

> there is a lack of warmth and parent involvement, lack of parental

> supervision, and harsh corporal discipline. Some research suggests

a

> link between bullying behavior and child maltreatment. Also,

schools

> that lack adequate adult supervision tend to have more instances of

> bullying. "

>

> http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/bullying.html

>

> Here the APA agrees with you on the parenting issue, so quite

> possibly you are correct. And yet there are many other causative

> factors as well, including schools that lack adequate adult

> supervision.

>

> Ergo, without further investigation, one cannot blame the parents

> outright for bullying behavior.

>

> At the moment, I am composing an extensive podcast on bullying, and

> the research is quite startling.

>

> Further studies indicate that bullying could be the result of

> defective genes, too much testosterone in the system, watching too

> much TV, having a diagnosed difference or disorder, and even being

> tall.

>

> Adults and children alike who have any one of the above criteria

may

> be a bully. Children, when faced with situations they deem

> inescapable, may indeed respond to them in the manner in which this

> 6 year old did.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Yup !I agree as the principal at my daughters school did when there

was a fight in the hallway and a mentally challenged boy was being

attacked by bullies.. My daughter was brought in like the boys and I

was called to the school justifiably.... if the incident warrant the

police I would go along with them as well and take it up in court.

There is an African saying... " Trouble does not ring a bell " .

>

> " as for forcibly confine and charged.... The police were right. If

> one

> does not obey the laws and attack others with no justification, they

> will be confined and charged... "

>

> The operative words in the above comment are " with no

justification. "

>

> " If that little girl hit my daughter during her wild rampage..I

> would insist on the charges and the confinement to the police

> station. We have no idea what the facts were, why the child acted

> like she did.. Being afraid is NOT enough. I would look to the home

> as well as the school. There are not enough facts in teh report to

> make up all these opinions about police school or parents.... or

the

> child... "

>

> In my opinion, since I cannot know what preceded the incident

> without witnessing it, I would, as the arresting officer, be forced

> to arrest both your daughter and the assaulting child and charge

> them both. The child on the grounds that she may have struck the

> child, and for " resisting arrest " and your daughter based on the

> possibility that she may have struck the main offender first.

>

> Alternatively, I could have simply mentored both children by

talking

> to them, listening to them, comforting them, and letting them go.

>

> It all depends on departmental policy.

>

> But I think you would agree that I would prejudicing myself in

favor

> of your daughter if I did not acknowledge her possible role in the

> affair and arrest her on grounds of suspicion of violence and

bodily

> harm to the other child.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

I agree Tom. Right now, I have a meeting with my OCD psychologist and

need to make an appointment with my Aspergers psychologist... Hope

all will be resolved later.

>

> Ok. I was excited when I signed on and saw all these posts and

after

> reading the first one or two I was going to respond with some of

the

> things that have happened at my mother's school.

>

> However, this has gotten far too heated, so this thread is closed.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Assuming the teachers, school, and police were at fault is doing

everyone and society an injustice. "

I disagree with that in this particular case. In terms of a typical

child's development, it is doubtful that this child was behaving in

any way other than a reactive one that typifies and epitomizes the

way that children respond in extreme situations where they are

pushed beyond normal limits. Alternatively, it could have been some

sort of medical reaction...anything from an insulin reaction to some

sort of outbust as a result of psychological malady.

As a former teacher, I do know that priority number one is

protecting the other students from harm. A police officer's duty

would surely be the same.

Yet comforting and consoling the student while things were still in

the developing stages may have helped (indeed, perhaps it WAS

tried.) But, I can tell you that in all my experience as a teacher,

a step-dad, and an AS advocate, I have never encountered a situation

where niceness and calmness and listening, and talking could not

diffuse an outburst in a child.

Love and care has always worked for me.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Ooooooooops sorry - only just got to this post now, but I

agree with you and will try and refrain from commenting further;

which I suspect will be difficult - especially if as I suspect my

posts have been responded to.

>

> Ok. I was excited when I signed on and saw all these posts and

after reading

> the first one or two I was going to respond with some of the things

that

> have happened at my mother's school.

>

> However, this has gotten far too heated, so this thread is closed.

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree especially when people resort to personal attacks which are

not a part of the issue being discussed. In the future I will not

respond to people who attack me personally or my family, especially

when people do not have Aspergers...its plain bullying.

>

> I understand wanting to continue posts like this, given that I had

a problem

> like this some months back. Since then, Tom has asked me to keep a

tighter

> rein on that kind of thing and that's what I intend to do. That a

few posts

> continued is understandable, given how people read posts and the

order they

> might come through via emails. However, posts came up that my calls

to desist

> were heard. Yet it continues. One or two posts wouldn't have been

so bad, but

> 20?

>

> That pisses me off.

>

> When I was growing up, if the animals wouldn't stop fighting over

something,

> we'd turn the hose on them or throw a bucket of water on them.

That did the

> trick. On here, we have moderation. Now, I would rather things

settle down

> before it comes to that.

>

> In understand how hard a heated argument is to walk away from. Just

don't

> read the damn posts! Not doing that is what got me in trouble so

I've been not

> reading some threads that I know would have gotten under my skin,

trusting the

> others would and would keep a handle on things.

>

> So, aside from Tom, who said he would make another couple of posts

after

> reviewing this thread, I expect the hostilities to end.

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

>

[Guest guest]

As I said... nothing is going to be said. I don't have time for

such nonsense. Sound of silence doesn't always work... Like the

song , Silence like a cancer grows.

>

>

> In a message dated 4/18/2007 1:51:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> TxArt@... writes:

>

> I agree especially when people resort to personal attacks which

are

> not a part of the issue being discussed. In the future I will not

> respond to people who attack me personally or my family,

especially

> when people do not have Aspergers...when people do n

>

>

>

> I appreciate the sentiments. However, comments like this don't

help. They

> only serve to perpetuate the hostilities. In cases like this, it is

better just

> to say nothing else.

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

>

[Guest guest]

Just got back from a meeting and I am reading through the posts here.

, my second in command put a ban on this topic, but seeing as

I run this place I am going to answer your question(s) in regard to

this particular post and ONLY this post since the questions in this

post are directed at me.

BUT

After this point I will answer nothing more from you on this topic

so that we can allow to exercise his authority.

You see, as far as I have been able to gather from Raven, she agreed

last night that she would answer no more posts from you LAST NIGHT,

which she did.

She got online in the morning and resumed posting as usual until she

saw 's order to halt, which she (mostly) obeyed. sent

her a PM telling her to be quiet once and for all regarding the

topic, and she has been.

You, however, persist, even going so far as to call her a bully, and

comparing her to a cancer.

So you see, you seemed to have placed yourself in the same position

this little girl in the article has done.

You have been told to drop the subject by a forum administrator, yet

you persist. Now I, the highest authority in this forum, have been

called in to review the situation.

And as you can see, I am trying to deal with you peacably.

wants to lock you up in moderation, and I will differ to his

judgement from here on out. This may feel unfair to you, but now you

will know what the little girl felt like.

From her perspective, she did no wrong, yet she finds herself in

jail.

Regarding your post....

You asked...

" Tom do you have the facts in front of you? DO you know she is

mentally ill for a fact? "

My answer...

Nope. But you do not have all the facts either, and so you have no

basis to claim that she is NOT mentally ill.

" How do you know where she was placed? "

The police report says she was sent to jail.

" Why are you assuming these charges meant she did not have a person

taking care of her until her parent/s arrived? "

Well, I studied under one of the professors who invented the concept

of positive reinforcement and dilineated between punative,

permissive, and progressive parenting and teaching methods. When

properly applied, positive reinforcement and progressive teaching

and parenting never fail to diffuse a volatile situation.

I have the experience to back it up. Truth to tell, I diffused worse

situations than the comparatively slight flare-up the article

originally spoke of, and most of the time the teacher was the one at

fault for fanning the flames of a small situation into a large one.

Adults have the burden of responsibility for helping children learn

about the world around them and grow into it. If the child manifests

aggressive behavior in this fashion in an educational setting, it is

usually the result of the adults in charge allowing it to progress

to the point where an explosion takes place, or it is the direct

result of the adult's causing the situation.

The tactic that works best with me with children is lowering my

voice every time they raise theirs, and talking to them like they

are human beings, even if they behave like savages. Never failed me.

While I would agree that a home situation and the educational

setting are not mutually exclusive of one another, teachers are

prepared to deal with any and every eventuality, and if they are NOT

prepared, then either:

A) They are poorly trained, or

The teachers truly have encountered a situation with no possible

solution.

" B " ought to be comparatively rare. This assertion presumes that

teachers ARE indeed hamstringed from hitting or physically paddling

the child, locking them in a closet, or what have you.

There is always another solution, except to the worst possible one.

Maybe I just have a way with kids, and other people do not have that

ability, but while I will agree that the child's outbursts as they

were reported were inappropriate and should not be allowed, I

question how it is the child got to that point. Was she sitting in

her chair and then WHAM! ? I don't think so.

" Again these are all assumptions. At 6, I knew right from wrong when

I kicked, or hit, scratched or screamed. "

Well, this speaks to theory of mind, or the idea that we all think

alike. That you had this ability to know right from wrong at age 6

does not mean everyone would know this at the age of six. Though

most kids SHOULD know right from wrong at that age, if a child does

NOT know right from wrong, it is not unheard of. In fact, it could

be symptomatic of someone with a developmental delay. Any qualified

person who works extensively with a student should be able to

identify this and thus recognize that the student must be handled

quite differently than how a developmentally normal student would be

handled.

" If it was self defense it was right... "

Good. then you will agree that if the child believed she was acting

in self-defense of the teacher and policeman, she was well within

her grounds. That YOU believe she behaved inappropriately is of no

consequence, especially if the child WAS acting in self-defense in

her opinion.

" if it was to get my way it was wrong... "

We have no indication that the child was being selfish, and so

cannot blame her or her parents for her behavior unless we are in

posession of the facts.

" ...and I have OCD and aspergers... "

Theory of mind again. Some people with AS do not know right from

wrong, or else their definitions of right and wrong are different

from yours. This can be said of AS people or NTs.

" if the child had a mental illness it will be discussed in court,

with psycholgists (child) on all sides. "

And the defense attroney will surely argue " She suffers from

Asperger Syndrome, a dire, debilitating disease in which the

sufferer behaves in ways that are socially inappropriate. "

I'd rather have the facts brought forward, but before that, I'd like

to grill the teacher, arresting officer, and anyone else in the

classroom to find out what went wrong and why. I'd suspend both the

teacher and the arresting officer without pay in the interim. No

reason either of them should get a paid vacation at taxpayer expense

for (possibly) messing up a little girl.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Tom apparantly like minds rule here.... Too bad difference of opinion

is not allowed on this board and those who disagree are allowed to be

harrassed. Now comparing me to the little girl? IS this how you work

with people.... ?

No Tom.. I don't get violent and kick and bite and scratch or cut

people off if they disagree. I discuss issues whether people agree or

not. I also don't allow people who agree with me to harrass others if

I am the authority. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but

harrassment was allowed and I see why after this post.

People who agree with your philosophy are allowed to do so on this

board with personally harrassing commments. Its allowed. And you are

the ULTIMATE head of this forum. It's a private forum, and its your

choice to do as you please.

I am still contemplating the merits of Scrabble and horses at

concerts to aspergers.. apparantly I have not had enough psychology

courses to understand that jewel.

PS an appolgy to the personal harrassment remarks or the allowing of

the personal harrassment remarks can be made. It too is a choice.

>

> Just got back from a meeting and I am reading through the posts

here.

>

> , my second in command put a ban on this topic, but seeing

as

> I run this place I am going to answer your question(s) in regard to

> this particular post and ONLY this post since the questions in this

> post are directed at me.

>

> BUT

>

> After this point I will answer nothing more from you on this topic

> so that we can allow to exercise his authority.

>

> You see, as far as I have been able to gather from Raven, she

agreed

> last night that she would answer no more posts from you LAST NIGHT,

> which she did.

>

> She got online in the morning and resumed posting as usual until

she

> saw 's order to halt, which she (mostly) obeyed.

sent

> her a PM telling her to be quiet once and for all regarding the

> topic, and she has been.

>

> You, however, persist, even going so far as to call her a bully,

and

> comparing her to a cancer.

>

> So you see, you seemed to have placed yourself in the same position

> this little girl in the article has done.

>

> You have been told to drop the subject by a forum administrator,

yet

> you persist. Now I, the highest authority in this forum, have been

> called in to review the situation.

>

> And as you can see, I am trying to deal with you peacably.

>

> wants to lock you up in moderation, and I will differ to

his

> judgement from here on out. This may feel unfair to you, but now

you

> will know what the little girl felt like.

>

> From her perspective, she did no wrong, yet she finds herself in

> jail.

>

> Regarding your post....

>

> You asked...

>

> " Tom do you have the facts in front of you? DO you know she is

> mentally ill for a fact? "

>

> My answer...

>

> Nope. But you do not have all the facts either, and so you have no

> basis to claim that she is NOT mentally ill.

>

> " How do you know where she was placed? "

>

> The police report says she was sent to jail.

>

> " Why are you assuming these charges meant she did not have a person

> taking care of her until her parent/s arrived? "

>

> Well, I studied under one of the professors who invented the

concept

> of positive reinforcement and dilineated between punative,

> permissive, and progressive parenting and teaching methods. When

> properly applied, positive reinforcement and progressive teaching

> and parenting never fail to diffuse a volatile situation.

>

> I have the experience to back it up. Truth to tell, I diffused

worse

> situations than the comparatively slight flare-up the article

> originally spoke of, and most of the time the teacher was the one

at

> fault for fanning the flames of a small situation into a large one.

>

> Adults have the burden of responsibility for helping children learn

> about the world around them and grow into it. If the child

manifests

> aggressive behavior in this fashion in an educational setting, it

is

> usually the result of the adults in charge allowing it to progress

> to the point where an explosion takes place, or it is the direct

> result of the adult's causing the situation.

>

> The tactic that works best with me with children is lowering my

> voice every time they raise theirs, and talking to them like they

> are human beings, even if they behave like savages. Never failed

me.

>

> While I would agree that a home situation and the educational

> setting are not mutually exclusive of one another, teachers are

> prepared to deal with any and every eventuality, and if they are

NOT

> prepared, then either:

>

> A) They are poorly trained, or

> The teachers truly have encountered a situation with no possible

> solution.

>

> " B " ought to be comparatively rare. This assertion presumes that

> teachers ARE indeed hamstringed from hitting or physically paddling

> the child, locking them in a closet, or what have you.

>

> There is always another solution, except to the worst possible one.

>

> Maybe I just have a way with kids, and other people do not have

that

> ability, but while I will agree that the child's outbursts as they

> were reported were inappropriate and should not be allowed, I

> question how it is the child got to that point. Was she sitting in

> her chair and then WHAM! ? I don't think so.

>

> " Again these are all assumptions. At 6, I knew right from wrong

when

> I kicked, or hit, scratched or screamed. "

>

> Well, this speaks to theory of mind, or the idea that we all think

> alike. That you had this ability to know right from wrong at age 6

> does not mean everyone would know this at the age of six. Though

> most kids SHOULD know right from wrong at that age, if a child does

> NOT know right from wrong, it is not unheard of. In fact, it could

> be symptomatic of someone with a developmental delay. Any qualified

> person who works extensively with a student should be able to

> identify this and thus recognize that the student must be handled

> quite differently than how a developmentally normal student would

be

> handled.

>

> " If it was self defense it was right... "

>

> Good. then you will agree that if the child believed she was acting

> in self-defense of the teacher and policeman, she was well within

> her grounds. That YOU believe she behaved inappropriately is of no

> consequence, especially if the child WAS acting in self-defense in

> her opinion.

>

> " if it was to get my way it was wrong... "

>

> We have no indication that the child was being selfish, and so

> cannot blame her or her parents for her behavior unless we are in

> posession of the facts.

>

> " ...and I have OCD and aspergers... "

>

> Theory of mind again. Some people with AS do not know right from

> wrong, or else their definitions of right and wrong are different

> from yours. This can be said of AS people or NTs.

>

> " if the child had a mental illness it will be discussed in court,

> with psycholgists (child) on all sides. "

>

> And the defense attroney will surely argue " She suffers from

> Asperger Syndrome, a dire, debilitating disease in which the

> sufferer behaves in ways that are socially inappropriate. "

>

> I'd rather have the facts brought forward, but before that, I'd

like

> to grill the teacher, arresting officer, and anyone else in the

> classroom to find out what went wrong and why. I'd suspend both the

> teacher and the arresting officer without pay in the interim. No

> reason either of them should get a paid vacation at taxpayer

expense

> for (possibly) messing up a little girl.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> AVON PARK, Fla. -- Police arrested a 6-year-old Florida girl and even

> handcuffed her when she acted out in class. Police officers said

What was that about system failure. To quote Titan AE. I weep for

your species. Yipes

[Guest guest]

>

I have had a 6 yr old girl come at me with a chair. Never once did i

think police involvement was warranted. I can only say that 6 yr old

children need guidance. In that case parents educators and police

need to excercise restraint, and look for the root cause of a

behavior. Why would a 6 yr old resort to violence? to applaud

punishment is a nod to torture. A child is always at the whim of

environment. And the whole environment needs to be viewed. To cuff

a child is beyond extreme, but looking into needs and causes is a

necessity. Children are not born bad. There is no bad seed. People

respond to stress and environment in different ways. To applaud

harsh brutality is short sighted, and I doubt anyone here suggested

milk and cookies as a reward for behavior. Behavior is molded,

supported and guided from a miriad of sources.

As stated we do not know, she could have been the victim of sexual

abuse and her acting out may have been a cry for help; so in that

case was cuffing warranted. Children are young unshaped individuals

and cumulitive effect needs to be taken into consideration. If you

claim genius, surely you must know what I have said. Punishment for

a child? Ludicris in 6 years she needs to know better??? who taught

her this better that you refer to? the teaching is up to adults and

community. This hands off idea is where all the trouble begins.

punishment only and no looking at root issues. Is like saying " kids

will be kids " That mode of thinking is outmoded and narrow minded,

and beautifuly displays Reganonomics, throw out non-conformity,

praise wild short sightedness and marvel at the unbelieable bad

results.

[Guest guest]

>

> " It's amazing how much success people can have when they actually

> come from compassion and understanding and good hearts rather than

> coming from judgment and callousness and discrimination.

>

> Raven "

>

> Most definitely agree and I have seen just what positives results

> such can have. One does the work, one gets the results, but it is sad

> to say there are still many out there that would try and tear down

> such good results, because basically they don't care and don't want

> to put the effort in.

>

>

This is the truth of all children. The parents are not the only

contributing factor. Intent has to be observed. What is the child's

intent the parantal response and the school care givers. Only with a

true team of Caring individuals, can one hope to make a secure

responsible adult. In an abusive environment it takes extradinary

resiliance to not go down the wrong path. In a precarious situation it

takes careful consideration. Anyone of us based on our pasts could

have resorted to violence to compesate for injustice. many of us

choose violence on ourselves rather than others. What is so hard about

being truly caring rather than just for show concern. I am amazed

there is not a higher standard and even psycological profile of

teachers. even manditory ongoing training. In business there are

meetings to include new modes of thought regarding work environment

ethics yet this doesn't occur for teachers just new methods of

punishment (police involvement) for goodness sake this is not the

early 1900's and children are not tiny adults, who have all the

knowledge of consequence built in from inseption. Sheesh mimi

[Guest guest]

" What is so hard about being truly caring rather than just for show

concern. "

In teacher training, we were told never to speak to a student alone

or with the door to our classroom closed, nor were we to hug a

student or touch them in any way (including pats on the head or

especially on the back) so as not to be accused of sexual abuse.

" I am amazed there is not a higher standard and even psycological

profile of teachers. "

In my state they do a criminal background check on you and check the

sex offender list before you even begin your on-site training in

college. Your professors are supposed to monitor whether or not you

would be a good teacher and tell you if you are not cut out for it.

However, your professors range from liberal to conservative in their

opinions, and majority rule. So if you go to a liberal school and

you are conservative, you may find yourself discourgaed from

teaching, and with poor reccommendations. Or, if you are liberal

going to a conservative school, you may find yourself discouraged

from teaching and with poor reccommendations.

Also, if you are on any sports team, you are passed no matter what,

even if your academic performance is low.

" ...even manditory ongoing training. "

There is ongoing training, but it varies by district. In one

district, you may be expected to take one or two seminars a year. In

others, you may go through your entire career without ever

undergoing additional training.

Tom

Administrator