RE: Basic Question About a Design

[Guest guest]

research on theta/beta ratios was done with old equipment that used power instead of amplitudes.Power is amplitude squared, hence they are squaring the two values before dividing them.Could simply have created the amplitude ratio and squared that at well.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

 

I have a couple of questions about one of the BrainBay designs called " two-channel assessment, " shown below:  

In the module at the right side of the design, labelled " (A*A/B*, " the theta and beta outputs are multiplied times themselves, before being counted in the theta-beta ratio counter. Why is this? If we are wanting to see only a ratio of the theta to beta waves, then squaring each would only give you the same ratio, so what's the point of this seemingly-extra step?

Second question: Is the " Averager " which follows truly an averaging module, or has it been so-labeled because it simply samples the incoming data every 256 (if set to that number, for example) times?

 I realize that most people in this forum don't use BrainBay, but since the first question, at least, is one about very basic procedure, I would imagine that it's not a problem. The second question is not one that is answerable, without a familiarity with BrainBay, however.

 In an attempt to find an answer, I have posted this on the OpenEEG forum, as well, casting my net widely, as it were. The folks on that website are also helpful and great, but normally remain mute to such questions as these, being oriented more toward the engineering and computer programming aspects of EEG, so I'm not holding out much hope for an answer, there.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that, Pete. But it still doesn't really answer the question as to why one would need to do all of that; i.e., what is the value of a so-called "power" value, if it is simply the original, raw, value squared? Both the raw value and the power value are relative to, and compared to, some normative baseline that has been established as the result of repeated measurements taken at the various sites on healthy members of the population, I assume. Why the need for a "power" value? --Ray Cole From: pvdtlc@...Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:50:01 -0200Subject: Re: Basic Question About a Design

research on theta/beta ratios was done with old equipment that used power instead of amplitudes.Power is amplitude squared, hence they are squaring the two values before dividing them.Could simply have created the amplitude ratio and squared that at well.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

I have a couple of questions about one of the BrainBay designs called "two-channel assessment," shown below:

In the module at the right side of the design, labelled "(A*A/B*," the theta and beta outputs are multiplied times themselves, before being counted in the theta-beta ratio counter. Why is this? If we are wanting to see only a ratio of the theta to beta waves, then squaring each would only give you the same ratio, so what's the point of this seemingly-extra step?

Second question: Is the "Averager" which follows truly an averaging module, or has it been so-labeled because it simply samples the incoming data every 256 (if set to that number, for example) times?

I realize that most people in this forum don't use BrainBay, but since the first question, at least, is one about very basic procedure, I would imagine that it's not a problem. The second question is not one that is answerable, without a familiarity with BrainBay, however.

In an attempt to find an answer, I have posted this on the OpenEEG forum, as well, casting my net widely, as it were. The folks on that website are also helpful and great, but normally remain mute to such questions as these, being oriented more toward the engineering and computer programming aspects of EEG, so I'm not holding out much hope for an answer, there.

[Guest guest]

If you want to compare against a published standard (various papers by Monastra/Lubar and others regarding theta/beta ratios and ADHD), you need to compare against the same value they researched.-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

 

Thanks for that, Pete.  But it still doesn't really answer the question as to why one would need to do all of that; i.e., what is the value of a so-called " power " value, if it is simply the original, raw, value squared? Both the raw value and the power value are relative to, and compared to, some normative baseline that has been established as the result of repeated measurements taken at the various sites on healthy members of the population, I assume.  Why the need for a " power " value? 

 --Ray Cole  From: pvdtlc@...

Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:50:01 -0200Subject: Re: Basic Question About a Design

 

research on theta/beta ratios was done with old equipment that used power instead of amplitudes.Power is amplitude squared, hence they are squaring the two values before dividing them.Could simply have created the amplitude ratio and squared that at well.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

 

I have a couple of questions about one of the BrainBay designs called " two-channel assessment, " shown below:  

In the module at the right side of the design, labelled " (A*A/B*, " the theta and beta outputs are multiplied times themselves, before being counted in the theta-beta ratio counter. Why is this? If we are wanting to see only a ratio of the theta to beta waves, then squaring each would only give you the same ratio, so what's the point of this seemingly-extra step?

Second question: Is the " Averager " which follows truly an averaging module, or has it been so-labeled because it simply samples the incoming data every 256 (if set to that number, for example) times?

 I realize that most people in this forum don't use BrainBay, but since the first question, at least, is one about very basic procedure, I would imagine that it's not a problem. The second question is not one that is answerable, without a familiarity with BrainBay, however.

 In an attempt to find an answer, I have posted this on the OpenEEG forum, as well, casting my net widely, as it were. The folks on that website are also helpful and great, but normally remain mute to such questions as these, being oriented more toward the engineering and computer programming aspects of EEG, so I'm not holding out much hope for an answer, there.

[Guest guest]

But why did they resort to the use of "power" values? What is the significance of a power value, regardless of who first did it? There must be a good reason, which I'm assuming has its basis in statistical methodology. From: pvdtlc@...Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:52:05 -0200Subject: Re: Basic Question About a Design

If you want to compare against a published standard (various papers by Monastra/Lubar and others regarding theta/beta ratios and ADHD), you need to compare against the same value they researched.-- Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

Thanks for that, Pete. But it still doesn't really answer the question as to why one would need to do all of that; i.e., what is the value of a so-called "power" value, if it is simply the original, raw, value squared? Both the raw value and the power value are relative to, and compared to, some normative baseline that has been established as the result of repeated measurements taken at the various sites on healthy members of the population, I assume. Why the need for a "power" value?

--Ray Cole From: pvdtlc@...

Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:50:01 -0200Subject: Re: Basic Question About a Design

research on theta/beta ratios was done with old equipment that used power instead of amplitudes.Power is amplitude squared, hence they are squaring the two values before dividing them.Could simply have created the amplitude ratio and squared that at well.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

I have a couple of questions about one of the BrainBay designs called "two-channel assessment," shown below:

In the module at the right side of the design, labelled "(A*A/B*," the theta and beta outputs are multiplied times themselves, before being counted in the theta-beta ratio counter. Why is this? If we are wanting to see only a ratio of the theta to beta waves, then squaring each would only give you the same ratio, so what's the point of this seemingly-extra step?

Second question: Is the "Averager" which follows truly an averaging module, or has it been so-labeled because it simply samples the incoming data every 256 (if set to that number, for example) times?

I realize that most people in this forum don't use BrainBay, but since the first question, at least, is one about very basic procedure, I would imagine that it's not a problem. The second question is not one that is answerable, without a familiarity with BrainBay, however.

In an attempt to find an answer, I have posted this on the OpenEEG forum, as well, casting my net widely, as it were. The folks on that website are also helpful and great, but normally remain mute to such questions as these, being oriented more toward the engineering and computer programming aspects of EEG, so I'm not holding out much hope for an answer, there.

[Guest guest]

Sorry. Of course we all know that, in science, things are only done for the right reasons--related to statistical methodology, etc.  But when we did those studies back in the 90's all of us who participated were using the same amplifiers/software (Autogenics A620).  The " assessment " software used powers instead of amplitudes (picowatts instead of microvolts too).  So that was the " good reason " .  That's what we had.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

 

But why did they resort to the use of " power " values? What is the significance of a power value, regardless of who first did it? There must be a good reason, which I'm assuming has its basis in statistical methodology. 

  From: pvdtlc@...Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:52:05 -0200

Subject: Re: Basic Question About a Design

 

If you want to compare against a published standard (various papers by Monastra/Lubar and others regarding theta/beta ratios and ADHD), you need to compare against the same value they researched.--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

 

Thanks for that, Pete.  But it still doesn't really answer the question as to why one would need to do all of that; i.e., what is the value of a so-called " power " value, if it is simply the original, raw, value squared? Both the raw value and the power value are relative to, and compared to, some normative baseline that has been established as the result of repeated measurements taken at the various sites on healthy members of the population, I assume.  Why the need for a " power " value? 

 --Ray Cole 

From: pvdtlc@...

Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 06:50:01 -0200Subject: Re: Basic Question About a Design

 

research on theta/beta ratios was done with old equipment that used power instead of amplitudes.Power is amplitude squared, hence they are squaring the two values before dividing them.Could simply have created the amplitude ratio and squared that at well.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Ray Cole <RayRoshi@...> wrote:

 

I have a couple of questions about one of the BrainBay designs called " two-channel assessment, " shown below:  

In the module at the right side of the design, labelled " (A*A/B*, " the theta and beta outputs are multiplied times themselves, before being counted in the theta-beta ratio counter. Why is this? If we are wanting to see only a ratio of the theta to beta waves, then squaring each would only give you the same ratio, so what's the point of this seemingly-extra step?

Second question: Is the " Averager " which follows truly an averaging module, or has it been so-labeled because it simply samples the incoming data every 256 (if set to that number, for example) times?

 I realize that most people in this forum don't use BrainBay, but since the first question, at least, is one about very basic procedure, I would imagine that it's not a problem. The second question is not one that is answerable, without a familiarity with BrainBay, however.

 In an attempt to find an answer, I have posted this on the OpenEEG forum, as well, casting my net widely, as it were. The folks on that website are also helpful and great, but normally remain mute to such questions as these, being oriented more toward the engineering and computer programming aspects of EEG, so I'm not holding out much hope for an answer, there.

[Guest guest]

Pete,

I feel, it might be something else.

Because in electrical terms, one needs to measure both voltage and current to

get power. And with our amplifiers, we measure only volts.

(microvolts, that is)

May be somebody knowledgeable explain better.

Regards,

Devidas

> >

> > **

> >

> >

> >

> > I have a couple of questions about one of the BrainBay designs called

> > " two-channel assessment, " shown below:

> >

> > In the module at the right side of the design, labelled " (A*A/B*, " the

> > theta and beta outputs are multiplied times themselves, before being

> > counted in the theta-beta ratio counter. Why is this? If we are wanting to

> > see only a ratio of the theta to beta waves, then squaring each would only

> > give you the same ratio, so what's the point of this seemingly-extra step?

> > Second question: Is the " Averager " which follows truly an averaging

> > module, or has it been so-labeled because it simply samples the incoming

> > data every 256 (if set to that number, for example) times?

> >

> > I realize that most people in this forum don't use BrainBay, but since the

> > first question, at least, is one about very basic procedure, I would

> > imagine that it's not a problem. The second question is not one that is

> > answerable, without a familiarity with BrainBay, however.

> >

> > In an attempt to find an answer, I have posted this on the OpenEEG forum,

> > as well, casting my net widely, as it were. The folks on that website are

> > also helpful and great, but normally remain mute to such questions as

> > these, being oriented more toward the engineering and computer programming

> > aspects of EEG, so I'm not holding out much hope for an answer, there.

> > [image: 12-30-20116-07-14PM.png]

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am probably overly simplifying this but I remember a web conference with Dr. Soutar some time ago when he addressed the power vs magnitude/amplitude issue and his explanation, to paraphrase greatly, was that designers of NFB equipment, typically with more training in engineering and physics, are used to dealing with the concept of power and do not have the same frame of reference that clinicians do for explaining things in terms of amplitude. As time has passed this has become less of an issue as more clinicians have become involved both with design and as end users.

 

Sincerely,

Levine

On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 9:16 AM, devidasbhonde <devidasbhonde@...> wrote:

 

Pete,I feel, it might be something else.Because in electrical terms, one needs to measure both voltage and current to get power. And with our amplifiers, we measure only volts.(microvolts, that is)

May be somebody knowledgeable explain better.Regards,Devidas> >> > **> >> >

> >> > I have a couple of questions about one of the BrainBay designs called> > " two-channel assessment, " shown below:> >> > In the module at the right side of the design, labelled " (A*A/B*, " the

> > theta and beta outputs are multiplied times themselves, before being> > counted in the theta-beta ratio counter. Why is this? If we are wanting to> > see only a ratio of the theta to beta waves, then squaring each would only

> > give you the same ratio, so what's the point of this seemingly-extra step?> > Second question: Is the " Averager " which follows truly an averaging> > module, or has it been so-labeled because it simply samples the incoming

> > data every 256 (if set to that number, for example) times?> >> > I realize that most people in this forum don't use BrainBay, but since the> > first question, at least, is one about very basic procedure, I would

> > imagine that it's not a problem. The second question is not one that is> > answerable, without a familiarity with BrainBay, however.> >> > In an attempt to find an answer, I have posted this on the OpenEEG forum,

> > as well, casting my net widely, as it were. The folks on that website are> > also helpful and great, but normally remain mute to such questions as> > these, being oriented more toward the engineering and computer programming

> > aspects of EEG, so I'm not holding out much hope for an answer, there.> > [image: 12-30-20116-07-14PM.png]> >> >> >> >> >> >> >

> > > >>